Well, that went to hell in a handbasket. Would you sisters mind arguing somewhere else so the more civilized people can discuss the issue?

@DrkMatter & Thefremen
I dont claim to know anything about the WoW comunity. But I see blizzard reacting to a guy who is selling a program that runs seperate from their software, but with the purpose of being used with their software. The only reason I see them reacting this way not because they want to protect the players, but because this guy is making money off of it.

It is not a program that targets other ingame players, so the program itself does not cause other players harm. What causes them harm is the people who resell accounts, ingame currency/items ect... A normal player is not going to use this program for this purpose.

Although this program is cheep, I do not see it as a just reason for their reaction. They did not send him a "cease and desist" notice he "was visited at his home". I do not blame him for reacting the way that he did because a company does not send a representitive to give a cease and disist notice. Blizzard has a history of bullying people into submission and not taking action on behalf of the players until they feel it is worth it. I dont condone what this guys program, but I do not condone the actions of blizzard at all.

I am a strong beliver that the EULA is a load of crap. nobody even bothers reading them anymore. As a player if you dont want to play the game yourself, whats the point in buying it? But when I read that if they dont like my connection settings they can ban me permently, and I cant even call them up and ask why. Tell me how thats ok? EULA, simply says we can ban you for no reason at all, and prevent you from playing this or any of our other games in the future at our discression.

Quick example: I have two starcraft accounts that were banned because Blizzard decided to ban the local ISP. When I contacted them they refused to tell me why they were banned, all I got from them was to reformat my computer and buy a new copy. Which I did and was banned again. Point is they need to act on behalf of the players and not because of profits.

I use glider. have for about 6 months
i dont farm gold
i dont farm mats
i level characters to 60/70 so i can experience end game content

i know about 30-40 people that use it for this purpose

once they get to end game they dont bot

i have a wife a job a footy team a LIFE!

If i didnt have wowglider i couldnt play WoW and would therefore end my subscriptions

it does blizzard a service not a disservice

Again, you cut off the part where he talks about customers so it's not a surprise that you don't see it in the quoted materal.

If he makes it so that Blizzard can't stop him from selling his program it also means that he makes it so that Blizzard can't stop people from using his program. They are connected. If the courts proclaimed that his program didn't violate the rights of Blizzard then they wouldn't violate the rights no matter who was using it. The provision about customers doesn't serve the purpose you purport. It serves another.

If the courts say that he is allowed to sell it then his customers are allowed to use it. Any attempt at Blizzard to stop them could be construed as an infringment of his rights. Stopping people from using it is an attempt at stopping him from selling it and they have been enjoined from doing that if the courts order in his favor.

If it has nothing to do with the case then why is he asking for it as part of the relief? What do you think is happening to his customers that he included them in his request for relief?

@Mauler

Like I said about the analogies, you're right, they don't really fit, I have a hard time finding one about the contracts.

"If the courts said that Blizzard can’t act against WOWGlider, it’s creator or their customers (a part you didn’t include) then that would mean they could not ban for it".
I didn't include that because it has nothing to do with the issue. The WOWglider creators are not asking a jury to declare that Blizzard can do nothing against something that is against their EULA (and as stated before they can decide that pretty much everything they wish is against their EULA). The court issue here is about "is WOWglider infringing on any intellectual property or copyrights if Blizzard". Blizzard say it does, the WOWglider creator say it doesnt, he was the first to go to court to prove it.

"Good" is all I have to say. Blizzard shouldn't have a problem winning this

"People who complain about how this upsets the economy need to realise there’s been plenty of other factors ruining it"
Seriously, I'm on the Nazgrel realm. There's no botters or gold farmers ruining the economy. It's an army of people who don't know what they're doing sticking dozens of stacks of mithril and truesilver on the AH for 30 silver a stack. Simply put, Bots and Goldfarmers can damage the WoW economy. So can stupid people. Blizzard should ban all stupid people too. It makes just as much sense as:

"THAT IN BLIZZARD’S SOLE DETERMINATION: (i) ENABLES OR FACILITATES CHEATING OF ANY TYPE;" (from the EULA)
It essentially means, that if Blizzard considers you're sibling logging in to your account is cheating, they can legally ban your account. That's the supreme legal fire in this whole thing. Blizzard can ban anyone they want and just say something they were doing Blizzard considers cheating. Hey, you AFK'd out of Alterac Valley, that's cheating. BAM! Banned. You entire group just dropped out of a Warsong match! That's Cheating! BAM! Banned. It's a glorious use of loose terminology. Sucks for us, but Blizz gets that cash when you end up buying another account.

And for the dozen of you wanting this man to suffer like the ninth ring of hell for this because he's ruining your 'game'? I quoth William Shatner: "Get a life!" I play WoW, I see a bot, I don't fret. Someone wants to risk their account to take a shortcut? Feel free, it's their buck, not mine. Creating an unfair advantage? I can only assume you mean PvP, which is the same argument for any gank until you ding 70, regardless of bots or not, so just shut it. Destroying the economy? Get your guildies together and start a monopoly on something not so ridiculous on the AH, like Silk or Wool, and make your own fortune. Where there's a will there's a way, so stop complaining about how your precious toon is only level 16 and doesn't have 100 gold to twink yourself out.

Overall, I agree that they can ban anyone who uses this, and should try to. But Blizzard complaining that this program is unlawfully persuading users to cheat and get banned against their will is stupid, and the fact that they want this guy to turn over the source code, customer records, profits, domain name - that seems kinda messed up. Especially since they really are suing a guy for making a really good macro (It really boils down to it).

As someone on the WoWGlider forums has stated, if this does go through, there will probably be an anonymous Glider that'll appear in another six months to retaliate. And we repeat.

The specific relief he is asking for is that the courts rule that he isn't violating *any* of their rights, which would include enforcement of the EULA and as such he is asking the courts to make his bot program legit in game.

Tortious interference doesn't require the third party to forcefully interfere with a contract, just that they induce the breach while being aware of the contract. It would seem that all the elements to support such an accusation are present, unsupported dismissals that they don't have a leg to stand on notwithstanding, but I've not looked up the actual state requirement for such a tort. From the elements Blizzard spelled out in their counterclaim it would certainly be a valid case.

The sports anology is good but you missed the anology. If a player is under contract with a team you have to seek the permission of the team in order to talk to him. Happens almost every year in the NFL. This year I believe it was the Patriots and Jets having it out. I don't know how it's going to work out but I think this will be a sticking point for WoWGlider. Would be interesting to find out what was done to the gamblers in the Black Soxs scandal.

It's not that he is making money off of WoW that is the issue. He is interfering with their rights and the contractual agreements with other players. Even if he were doing this for free they would have still done exactly what they did in this case.

@Jabrwock

Consider me corrected on that part then, I'm far from an expert, no matter how many big words I tend to use. It doesn't really change my expectations of the outcome though.

As for the contents of the lawsuit being over the top? True, but the higher they aim, the smaller the concessions in any out of court settlement will seem. It most likely wouldn't have happened if mister programmer didn't try to sue them first.

(and really.. you pay lawyers a retainer for the intimidation factor, so why not getyour money's worth? But lawyer bashing is a sport I'll leave out of here, enjoyable as it is)

Have to say, I find the debate here rather amusing. Somewhere things seem to have been gotten confused a bit though. If you read the counterclaim it's quite obvious no way has Blizzard been saying that the actual ingame gold is worth money. They merely allege that they have lost revenue due to the fact that the botters using this program drive people away from the game, and that this results in a loss of revenue. Along with the 'fact' that the botters themselves are banned means that they lose out on the revenue from those as well.

As for the whole copyright thing, it's true that this guy wrote the program himself, but it's made for the express purpouse of botting in WoW, it has no other use. To do that, it has to bypass the launcher blizzard made for the game, which is in itself protected, and alters it, which can quite simply be construed as a copyright violation.

I think blizzard made a mistake in trying to get the court to award them ownership of the program though. Personally I'd have tried to let him keep ownership but to seek an injunction against the program making any contact with blizzard's servers, and holding him liable for every instance in which this does happen. This way, if he loses, he'll just throw out a few copies out on the net and people can go on with it independantly, after they strip out the copy protection the guy put in it.

In the end though, it can't be denied that the guy made a program that's only usable with WoW (can't be adapted for anything else, as it's making use of an interface specific to the interaction between WoW's client and the server) and is making money off it. That in itself will likely be what will sway the court in Blizzard's favor.

Can anyone seriously see things ending differently than that the guy gets told to stop, no matter what rhetoric is behind it?

You want an example of how bad Blizzard's customer service can be, check this out.

I was fighting monsters trying to get to quest items in the Shimmering Flats. Another player comes and ninja loots them (for those nut familiar with the terms it means he took the treasure the monsters I was fighting were guarding while I was fighting them so he would'nt have to and the results was tha I would have to fight them again when the treasure reappeared). Moments later I see him killed by the monsters guarding the next treasure and we have the following conversation:
Me: I guess you kind of deserve that, ninja-looting from me.
The player: It was a mistake but if you want to bother me about it next time I'll do it on purpose.
Me: If it was a mistake then an apologie would have been nice but be a ?&%# jerk if you want (I had the profanity filer on).
The player: Nice wording.
Me: I don't what that was, it (the word) was supposed to bigger.

I found out what I typed at my next play session because I was suspended for 3 days for "use of a racial slur". You see I accidentally typed the letter right of the B on the keyboard. I wrote to Blizzard asking if they suspended me on the player word alone or if they had logs of the conversations. If so, one could clearly see that it was a typing mistake and that I meant to type "bigger" not the other word. They answered me that a GM read the log of the conversation and that they decided to suspend me anyway because I agreed not to use "racial slurs" in the EULA.

Hurrah!

Curses, now I have to sue Hackangel pre-emptively to prevent myself being sued for copying! :P

WOWglider is not a hacking tool but it is againt the World of Warcraft EULA. So are nearly every third party add-ons that exists for World of Warcraft that Blizzards allows.

Let's forget it's botting program here. Imagine it's an add-on called WOWinterfacer that modifies the interface for a quicker access to spells. This is against the EULA. Imagine yours is so good that you decide to sell it. Blizzard then comes and tell you to cease and desist because you are violating their copyrights. You ask for jury trial to determine if what you created is your creation alone and not Blizzard. That is what is happening here. He's not suing Blizzard per se but they are involved in making the claims he is violating copyrights.

Upon further review: I apologize to Hackangel. Jabr is a copy-cat! :)

@ZippyDSMlee

Yes, but the question is, is Blizz allowed to sue him for helping others violate their EULA, or are they merely allowed just to ban people?

He's suing them because they threatened him with legal action if he did not fork over the profits from selling his macro program and stop upkeeping it. He sued them in order to force them to admit that they don't have any authority over him beyond enforcing the EULA... They countersued claiming he violated their copyright and the DMCA.

If someone looks at this objectively they will see that Blizzard is bullying a software programmer who's trying to make money from his own creation. How about MS owns all profits from software sold thats built to run with windows? Thats what blizzard is trying to do.

The only thing Blizzard is allowed to do is to say, "No, we don't like this and if you're caught using it with our program you'll be banned." If blizzard works hard enough to counteract glide users, people will stop buying the product that doesn't work. Simple as that.

@~the1jeffy Says
"And it took like 100 comments for Jabr to first to make any sense"

I ressent that, it's what Ive been saying all along :P but finally some people seem to grasp the point of the issue here.

@Serpilian

By your logic, any iPod add-on is making money off Apple's IP and should not be allowed to profit...

@ Mortium

I've been playing wow since open beta and yes while I agree botters and farmers are annoying as hell. You need to pull your head out from your ass and see what legal precedents this can have on independent software developers.

Right now you and many others are venting your frustrations and annoyance and a guy who may have caused a lot of your grief but did nothing legally wrong. So if you want to ban glide users in WoW no argument here, but if you want to see the guy go into financial ruin for no good legal reason. Then you're no better than those "for the children" politicians we've been hating on lately.

You know I believe in copyright law to a fair extent, but this is retarded.

The guys who make my lamp are different from the guys I buy light bulbs from. The fact that they work together doesn't mean the guys who make the light bulbs are infringing on the design of the lamp.

How exactly could this possibly be construed as violating copyright law when applied to a digital medium? I've written a few programs that can run on Windows without anyone giving me permission, am I an offender now?

Soo.. using thier IP to make money without thier permission is suddenly ok and legal? It's not like that program exactly works with any other program out there. =P Sorry, he should lose all the money he made on it.

@Micheal

How would that right get overturned? Theres not even any mention of this at all.

@Chadius

Exactly what I have been saying. People who complain about how this upsets the economy need to realise there's been plenty of other factors ruining it. I wrote before that these problems will persist as long as there a huge difference between casual and hardcore gamers in their "virtual" ressources. Thus there will always be a market for bots and gold farmers and thus an imperfect economy (it's not like the real one is perfect either).

Blizzard is not exactly flawless when it comes to their claim. It doesnt want bots that makes some player have more ressources than others but it encourages twinking (twinking, by the way also upsets the economy of an MMO). They say that third party add-ons are against the EULA but they allow plenty and even recommend some on the forums.

While I may not like botters I can honestly say that Blizz is barking up a stupid tree with copyright issues. Many many many characters that they knowingly placed in the game are severe copyright infringements of characters from other games, movies, and shows.

Glider does not break EULA, just as CT raid does not, and any other modifications. Glider is a violation of their ToS because of the ban they placed on its use. Glider has a right to exist and be sold, its not illegal, its simply software. So in the end if they want to package and sell it for use with WoW they can. If they want to say that it is Blizzard software thats where the issue would lie. Glider itself isn't responsible for what people do with their software since they stated that it doesn't violate the EULA but Blizzard has banned it. At that point the liability of the product is now in the hands of the user. It would be like holding gun manufacturers responsible since their products "tempted" someone to kill.

And to all the people crying over unfair advantage, where does the line meet to make it fair for everyone? Is it fair that I'm on a cable line while someone else is on a t3 connection? Is it fair if I have 4 different user interface modifications to allow me better and quicker information processing? Is it fair that I have a better computer than you allowing for quicker rendering and reaction time? There is no fair in computer gaming, it has and always will be the guy with the best rig and tools will have an advantage.

If you want fair, play in official tournaments with supplied systems and connections.

@Mauler
"No, he isn’t. Look at the relief he is asking for. He is asking for the Courts to tell Blizzard they can’t stop him from selling or his customers from using his program."

Where? I read it again and I don't see it anywhere that he is asking Blizzard that his customers be allowed to use WOWglider without being banned.

"In simple terms, an outside party can’t interfer with a contractual relationship between two outside parties. This one, more than the DCMA portion will be costly for him if he loses because they can get the monthly fees, perhaps for more than one month, for everyone banned using his program. That theory alone could prevent him from selling or giving away his program. Blizzard not only has a leg to stand on, they have two and they are both on firm ground."

He's not interfering. He's not forcing WOWglider upon Blizzard customer's. Let's go back to a baseball analogy. Let's say a sports company recruits a baseball star to endorse their products in hopes of incresing sales. The baseball star is found to be using steroids and it results in people turning away from the star and the products he endorses. Will the sports company have a leg to stand on while suing the drug-dealer who sold the steroids for loss of revenue?

Moral of the story: Build a better economic system, Blizzard.

I'm in the loot=bad wagon. I'd rather a game eliminate loot entirely or demphasize loot's importance than try to ban gold farmers.

@gs2005

"The game industry has been profitable LONG before EULA’s were forced upon us."

Those games also cost less than $100k to make. Even though piracy ran rampant, there were enough purchases to pay that off. The $10-$15 million dollar monstrosities that games have become require that we do everything we can to maximize profits, and for MMO games like WoW that includes forbidding reverse-engineering, since cheating can drive away paying customers.

Fact is, we can have it two ways: either you accept a EULA so that companies can crack down on those who are breaking the rules, or we can lose the big-budget games like WoW that would not be profitable enough to sustain in its current form if the EULA didn't exist.

I do have one problem with EULAs... they are not on the back of the box. I realize they are too long to do so, but there needs to be a better way (even if that way is making them accessible online). Because the current implementation is trapping the user: you don't know the EULA until you've already bought and opened the product, voiding the return policy.

However, I also think the people who worry most about EULAs are either the people that are planning to pirate or cheat, or those who fight the power just for the sake of fighting it. Most of these companies got where they are by making good products, why are we pissed off when they are trying to protect their profits so they can give us MORE good products? Do we always have to root for the little guy, even when the little guy is the bad guy?

Well, that depends on what your program does, doesn't it? If you write something to tell people when they might need to buy more eggs and milk, that's just fine. But if you write something that, say, tries to brute-force someone's password to their bank account? People are going to be looking at you funny.

Ashton:

Your argument, whilst not without some merit, is flawed. As I understand it, this guy CANNOT be locked up for this infringement, only sued. Now if he is going to start throwing around legal threats you have to expect a response. Blizzard's in this case is to counter-sue because they believe they have been wronged. None of this I think is wrong on Blizzard's part, they are just protecting their userbase and their rights.

There is however an interesting legal issue here. Blizzard says that it retains all rights and ownership of characters and equipment ingame, but by suggesting that this software would inflate pricing would be to acknowledge they have some value. This would be something I would stay well away from if I were them. However the other side of it suggesting that they lose revenue from people that THEY ban is again not going to stand up in court. The decision to use the software is the choice of the person who is banned and the decision to ban is Blizzard's so this doesn't affect the Bot creator either.

This will come down to if the Bot is an infringement of copywrite and the EULA and if the EULA has any legal standing. I have no idea how this will pan out in truth, but I also don't think that the Bot creator is the sinned against. He made a program and was making money off it that he KNEW would go against the principles and the EULA of W.o.W.


I also would like to say that I side with those that do not like the idea of cheats ruining thier leisure time. This is a game people invest many hundreds of hours in and pay for the privledge. If this was a game of football and some idiot picked up the ball and started throwing it in the goal time and time again, and you were paying for the time to play on the pitch, you would doubtlessly start getting annoyed.

Clearly you have no idea what a spoiled brat is. I can definitely say it is NOT someone who works for a living and pays their own way to play a game every month and doesn't like the idea of other people cheating. That is someone who respects fair play. All the swearing and tantrums in the world won't change that.

As for the comparison to cheating in a casino, well actuallya recent legal case where people were using electronic devices to count cards ended with the cheats getting to keep the money, but upholding the casino's right to refuse them entry ever again. Doubtless all other casino's will have them on their "No Entry" lists as well. If people side with the casino over this, that doesn't make them spoilt either, just people who dislike cheats.

While I don't have much to add to this conversation, I hate people who use the bot... but there is one advantage. Easy honour for the other side!

Got 250 honour points from murdering a bot over and over. Delightful!

I had an encounter with a player I later thought to be a bot once. The use of DCMA is really grasping at straws though. I'm not sure how that flawed legislation applies in this case.

@hayabusa75

The level grind IS part of the "true" WoW experience. What your talking about is more like an "ideal" WoW experinece. No leveling up, no need to earn money, no need to grind anything, just get together with poeple and beat up high level monsters. While i have not played WoW in particular i have played other MMO's, and leveling up was just part of the experience and didn't seem like a massive grind at first. At those low levels, you make contact with lots of new poeple and make friends... together you go out and beat up monsters and go on quests that are appropiate for your level and it's good fun... without that level grind, you might not meet half the poeple you end up meeting; you can meet some good poeple while leveling up.

"You say it’s perfectly reasonable to ban someone who is breaking the rules but if you look at what he is trying to do is to sue Blizzard so that they can’t enforce the rules against using his program."

THe details on the case are fuzzy, but I think the whole thing was done because he feared legal action from Blizzard. What this appears to be is him taking the preemptive and saying that he can't be sued for his program. I could be wrong though.

"Nobody is playing a game to “keep food on the table” or “keep a roof over their head” because the money isn’t there for that. It’s a red herring. Gold farming pays sub minimum wage all things considered and when the overhead factors in the notion that this is providing a living for someone while ignoring the fact they can go get any job that pays more is downright ludicrous. There is a reason that gold farming is done on a massive scale in China and not in the US. "

It makes good money in China. Sure, there are LOTS of better jobs in America, but it pays far more than minimum wage in China, which is why people in China do it. It's easy, efficient, and pays well (relatively). There ARE people who depend on this for income in China, and I stand mainly with them - if your statement is about people in the U.S. though, I agree completely.

@Mauler
"You say it’s perfectly reasonable to ban someone who is breaking the rules but if you look at what he is trying to do is to sue Blizzard so that they can’t enforce the rules against using his program."

Not at all, he is asking a jury to decide if his program is violating any copyright. He is not asking if the jury if WOWglider vilotes the EULA but copyrights. If he wins on this issue WOWglider still won't be accepted by Blizzard.

First, I'm an adult and I pay my own bills, so fuck you on that front. (27, if you must know, the language is because I get highly offended when other people tell me I'm not allowed to be annoyed by things.)

Second, let's try another example. Telemarketers. I mean, hey, they're just putting food on the table, right? So it's perfectly okay for them to call you whenever you want and try to get you to buy roofing tiles or magazine subscriptions or whatever garbage they're trying to peddle. I mean, nobody could possibly mind that, right? For a good cause and all. I mean, if people didn't like being harassed during their leisure time, then they might create some...oh, I don't know, a registry of some kind where people could sign up so they wouldn't be called. But hey, what are the odds of some kind of "Do Not Call Registry" being created? Pretty low, I'd say! What kind of petty asshole would ask to not have their downtime constantly interrupted!

Oh wait, what have we here? Seems there's a lot more people who don't like being bugged than I thought!

Now just imagine paying for the priviledge of having your leisure time pissed on.

Actually in the EULA has a line where either blizzard or the publisher has to give you a full refund if you do not with to accept the terms of the EULA.

Hmmm... to use a quote (or at least part of one im not sure)
"You called down the thunder, now reap the whirlwind" - Ghost, From Starcraft (?)

And you're a smug asshole who's telling people how they're allowed to feel about things that will never affect you.

Simple as that.

You completely missed the point of my post. It's perfectly reasonable to ban someone who is breaking the rules. But to want them thrown in jail or dealt with "harshly" means you are seriously out of touch with reality.

Generally speaking - and this in no way is my view on all of them - gamers are immature, spoiled shitheads. It's like the whole RMT money trading whining MMO players do; some of these RMT players are people utilizing this as a means to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads. I'd sooner prefer your game be ruined than they be rendered homeless, and if you prefer otherwise, then you're one of the spoiled little shits yourself.

There is a difference between "I do not care if they live or die" and "I do not want them making a livelihood by being a parasite." If you're so concerned, why don't you put those thirty bucks a month towards sponsoring a child somewhere? Oh, wait, I know, because that would jeapordize your leisure time. And we just can't have that.

You're not just a spoiled little child, you're an obnoxious, self-righteous hypocrite.

@Gray17

Don't be so sure about that-it's NOWHERE that obvious. The legality of ANY EULA has never been throughly tested in a court of law.

@Boffo97

Now that I am thinking about it, since this will test the reach of an EULA only, there would probably be no need of the ECA at all...from what I understand the ECA is more political in nature, like going after John Bruce Thompson-sponsored measures. I'm getting the ECA confused with the EFF I'm afraid...but I don't know if the EFF would bother with something like this, because it's pretty sketchy by default.

In a related item, so did the creator of BLEEM also decided to take a risk. BLEEM was deemed illegal by Sony (just because a company says something, doesn't mean it is legally/lawfully valid), because it was a commercial emulator, but the courts ruled in favor of BLEEM (it was NOT a perfect emulator), so Sony started filing lawsuit after lawsuit of any kind until they could bankrupt the company (which they did).

The idea that EULAs are "forced contracts" is ridiculous.

If you don't want to be forced into the contract, do not buy the box in the store, and thus license the game.

With just a little homework, most games' EULAs are readily available online before you buy them.

And if the ECA became involved in this one, I would be shocked at the wasted resources. This would not be in favor of the consumer just because one side is a corporation. The average consumer hopes the cheater gets plowed under.

@Jabrwock

It's pretty standard to send a cease and desist before resorting to suing. Not to mention the WoWGilder guy is on pretty shaky legal ground himself seeing as he's selling a cheat program. Blizzard's got a legal leg to stand on, they just rather not have to push that hard, given that most people have enough sense to know when the jig is up and it's time to move on.

I am admittedly not a WoW player, but I'm pretty much straddling the line on this issue. I agree that programs like this hurt the integrity of the game and are unfair to the real players, although anyone can use it. Of course, if everyone uses it, now you have a real problem. On the other hand, what about the guy or gal who really wants to enjoy the true WoW experience but doesn't have the time to level up to the point where he or she is more than just cannon fodder? Maybe there's no real solution...

Apologies, let me redo some of my last comment:

"...EFF I’m afraid…but I don’t know if the EFF would bother with something like this, because this situation is pretty sketchy by default."

I didn't want to sound like I was knocking the EFF.

It "circumvents" the game in the sense that the owner of the bot can have his character grind without being at the keyboard. People who say "I don't understand why someone would buy this game if they're not to play it and use WOWglider" I'll explain to you. Grinding, meaning gathering ressources to sell for money or money itself, is sometimes necessary to such an extreme in World of Warcraft that some people would use things like WOWglider so it is done without having them do it by sitting at their computer for hours at a time killing the same thing over and over.

For example, let's compare it to Final Fantasy. There's a better sword that supposedly drop from a monster so you go out in the field to fight monsters until it drops. WOWglider does that in World of Warcraft without you having to be at the controller/keyboard. Sounds nice in theory.

The reason why most people is against this (thus Blizzard because it respects ihe majority of it's customers wishes in this manner) is that it upsets the balance of ressources in the game, making prices rise or lower depending on many factors.

The reason I myself find it understandable even though it is wrong is that there is already an imbalance in ressources between casual and hardcore gamers but only the use of a bot in against the EULA.

There are a lot of third parties software accepeted in World of Warcraft but bots are not. As stated before, the reason Blizzard is countersuing is because that this particular third party software is sold instead of being free like most of the others are.

@GetWellGamers

Please read the article and the description of the software. While Blizz had every right to ban him, I don't feel they have any grounds to sue him, so they're resorting to threatening him instead (demanding his site be taken down, etc). Which is why he's suing them. To tell them that if they don't have a legal leg to stand on, back off...

@Wa_Hi

Learn how to break up what you say into sentences, its a lot easier to read than that ugly block of text.

"most people who bot are people who have lvled many chars to 60 and 70 so maybe i don’t feel like playing all those hours again and agian just because i wont to start on a new sever"

You want to start on a new sever, but do not have a high level character on that sever? so what, you think that just because you've leveled up high characters before somehow gives you a special privilage to avoid leveling up other high level characters? So long as you still have that high level character on your old sever, you must EARN to have a high level character on another sever. You can't just get something for nothing, you want ANOTHER high level charatcer then you should earn it yourself. its all PART OF THE GAME, you should either deal with it, or quit...

"glider dosnt lose them money it makes money for them by keeping people subscribed. In the ban wave we had not so long ago all they did was discourage people from playing that most likely would have stopped playing if had they not found glider so blizz lost those peoples subscriptions them selfs not glider,"

No it doesn't... every person that uses glider is a person that blizzard MUST ban. It makes them more money only until they find out who they are, realize that they are CHEATING, and then must ban them. Once they are banned they no longer provide money. While many are players who would have quit anyway or not started playing at all, some are poeple who just tried to take advantage of the bots and might have played the game normally if they hadn't existed... not to mention that that arguement doesn't help the bot creater since their is no way for him to prove that those who use bots are poeple who would have normally quit.

and second, one thing you don't take into account is how many honest players quit because of other poeple using bots. Like i mentioned before, i heard that WoW has exit surveys for players and according to those surveys one of the most common reasons for quiting WoW was Bots. In other words, honest players who would have normally kept on playing the game quit mainly BECAUSE of bots like glider. hell, when i quit playing MMO's i had other reasons to quit, but botting was still up there on things that pissed me off most about the game... you can compete agianst humans when it comes to hunting and earning cash, but there is just no beating a bot.

@Holj102
"First off, it seems like Glider isn’t a hack or a cheat in the sense that it doesn’t find hidden items and extract them for you. It doesn’t alter code. All it does is set up a system to level up as quickly as possible. "

No it is a cheat... it gives you a very strong unfair advantage that other players do not have. The users of bots get an unfair advantage in that they don't have to play the game at all to get what they want and can do other things. Essentially, they earn everything they want by putting the minmal effort in. Players on the other hand need to work far harder and take up much time to get what they want. With a bot gets you from point A to point B without you ever having to do a damn thing. anything that gives you an unfair advantage over other players IS cheating.

not to mention there are some more less noticable things bots do, such as being able to home in on targets faster then a human player can. for example, in FFXI, one of the best ways to make money was to camp a monster that spawns like once every so many hours. A human play can target it and claim it the moment it pops into view, since you have to visually be able to see it so that you can click on it. Bots however, since they don't have human eyes, can detect the monster spawning seconds before it actually comes into full view. by being able to detect it and target it like that, they can claim it just before it comes into view for the human players... thus, the human player can not beat a bot in a competetion of any kind.

@Joe Bourrie

The game industry has been profitable LONG before EULA's were forced upon us. The EULA is a formalized business tactic that allows a company to try to control what you do with their product. "By using this product, you agree to do this, and not do that, etc." It can, depending on the fine print and stated objectives, take away consumer rights.

Note-I don't have a huge problem with most EULA's, except those that blatantly try to crush consumer rights, even if it means reverse engineering. As someone who does some computer engineering research for a living (part of programming), I draw the line there. That's what the DMCA is-a law, that may not be constitutional, which crushes some rights as a user while "protecting" content by trying to scare people into not trying to break encryption mechanisms.

There are lots of techniques available for protecting source code for protecting computer programs and games, like using a code obfuscator for starters, and then using complex functions/subroutines, which can be designed to mislead a decomplier.

Nobody really knows precisely how legally enforceable an EULA is though. Partially because they are wide and varied, and partially, because no final ruling has been cast upon them in a general sense. There was an article from at least six months ago-maybe even a year ago, about how Best Buy was putting an EULA on an external computer package, and when you BOUGHT the computer, you somehow automatically agreed to it. Well, a consumer sued Best Buy and Best Buy lost and put the EULA back inside of the boxed package, although it doesn't necessarily invalidate the general purpose of EULA's.

Just because a law is in effect, until the supreme court rules on it or against it, this is the final measure of constitutionality. Kind of like software patents, but that's another story, for another time.


@Mauler

I am in disagreement with your DMCA part of your comment, but I am not a lawyer and neither are you, but I am referencing BNETD, which Blizzard Entertainment won against, because they could prove it was a hack, and could not prove based on an "end result" to use your words. BNETD *was* a hack of sorts (communication protocol hack), but the DMCA is now around which allows companies in the USA to make weak encryption mechanisms and the sue people who break it.

I found Blizzard Entertainment's attitude concerning BNETD completely appalling to the level of where I choose not to buy, or be interested in anything they do. Let me be clear-I do not have much sympathy for the people who made WOW Glider, but I will not feel sorry for Blizzard Entertainment one bit, if they lose this lawsuit, which we'll just have to see. I honestly hope they do. To me, it is not okay to crush consumer rights, and while I understand that legit players of WOW don't like others who use a tool to do the same thing and "cheapen" the value of the game, to me, when you buy something you OWN it and are not licensed to use it, as the EULA's typically state.

I would be annoyed too, but I would also just accept this aspect that as a game becomes mainstream, stuff like this is just going to happen. WOWGlider isn't the only "bot" out there-but they are an easier target than gold farmers in China are.

Before I stop, I'd like to finish by adding that the DMCA is futile-"protection" (read as:copy restrictions) gets broken no matter what. You can't stop, what cannot be stopped. However, the DMCA is the effort mostly by the RIAA and MPAA-not Blizzard Entertainment. Hollywood, which is new to technology in some ways, thinks that with all their money that they've used to control the US congress, they can change the rules about hacking and scare people away from doing it. They'll be burned over and over again, and deservedly so, as long as they maintain their belief, because reality concerning hackers/hacking is quite another matter. Look no further than how HD-DVD and Blu-Ray were recently K.O.'ed...even though they supposedly poured thousands of dollars into the "protection" of higher resolution DVD's.

Does it need to be the best possible encryption method to enjoy the protection of the law?

You will never be ahead of the crackers. MMORPGs walk a tight line and the more you put on the client software the more you make accessible this and other programs. The more you leave for the server the more lag you create. No MMORPG is going to use the best possible encryption method because of the impact it is going to make on the playing experience. So knocking them for not using the best encryption seems rather suspect especially given your bit about copy protection in general. By putting something up there you can then solve the problem the right way - Sue them into submission.

I doubt the court is going to award them source code but I think Blizzard is just going to clock them in court. Hopefully this will go to a jury, or a judge, because it would be nice to see a precident to this type of issue unlike the Black Snow Interactive (which ended when they didn't pay their lawyer if memory serves).

Stuff like this happens all the time. People don't sue over it but in rare instances. Blizzard is doing what not only what they have to do but doing it as most people would do. When you go into a fight of this magnitude where losing would mean nothing but bots on all the servers, you fire every gun you have. They would have been happy with a cease and desist. When he pushed back they went all.

"The idea that EULAs are “forced contracts” is ridiculous."

You must not understand what exactly the law considers a "forced contract." The terms of a forced product come into play even more so with key-code/encrypted games.

If you purchased a garbage can that said it could only be used as a garbage can, "or else," and that you agree to these terms the moment something goes into it, it'd be a forced contract. Not to mention, so vague that it'd be tossed out in court. The problem is that these game companies and their vague and forced contracts can use these things as leeway and power when dealing with consumers.

And when it comes down to it, EULAs aren't okayed by any current legal system, and thus, are rubbish. They're an attempt to police users of a product to avoid unwelcome scrutiny.

WoW takes no skill to play get that into your head first all it takes is knowing other classes abilities and your own yes if you bot 24/7 then you wont know but i can assure you that most people who bot are people who have lvled many chars to 60 and 70 so maybe i don't feel like playing all those hours again and agian just because i wont to start on a new sever blizz has no case the will lose because it dose not break EULA it breaks TOS for someone to use it but thats your problem and if your caught you will be banned for it and well your gonna have to buy a new copy of that game but you took that risk so deal with it. Glider dosnt reverse engineer anything its uses keystrokes and reads WoWs memory and dose not inject anything into their code glider dosnt lose them money it makes money for them by keeping people subscribed. In the ban wave we had not so long ago all they did was discourage people from playing that most likely would have stopped playing if had they not found glider so blizz lost those peoples subscriptions them selfs not glider,

I really don't understand the people who are dissing on Blizzard over this. It's THEIR product, people. They are well within their rights to exclude someone from THEIR service if that someone modifies THEIR game in a way that could hurt their business.

Now, I don't have much knowledge on how "gliding" works (or how MMO's work, for that matter). However, I do know that, regardless of whether it alters any code, it alters the game mechiniacs that the makers of the game established. If this guy made his own MMO and put a gliding program in it, that'd be fine. But since it alters somebody else's game, the makers of the game are entitled to exclude him from their service.

Admittingly, I don't think Blizzard should or would be able to take this person to court over this. The thing is, they didn't just slap him with a lawsuit right away, and you can't prove that that was what they set out to do. They simply visited his house and told him the mod violated their copyright (which it does, for the reason I stated above). It was only when the bot creator filed a premptive lawsuit that they took any sort of legal action, which is understandable. What else did you expect them to do, roll over and allow this person to continue using this unauthorized hack on THEIR service?

I also find some of the critisisims of Blizzard itself truly frivolous. They might not be perfect, but they are NOT a charity. They established their online service to make a profit. In order to make a profit, they must, like any business, keep their paying customers happy. When somebody goldfarms or uses a bot to gain an unfair advantage over honest players, and those honest players complain to Blizzard, it's only natural that they will crack down on those cheaters to keep the service balanced and keep the users of this service from leaving in disgust. For example, if somebody cheated to gain an unfair advantage on Halo 2, and people start complaining, would you expect Bungie to do nothing? Would you believe Bungie oversteps their authority by moderating THEIR online service and keeping things fair for the people who pay for it? Nobody has a right to use Blizzard's service, they have a privilege. In this case, the terms of this privilege are outlined in the EULA that this person AGREED to before playing the game. By breaking this agreement, they are justified in excluding this person from their service. You might not think it's fair, but that's not your decision, because it's not your product. Again, I DON'T think that this would give Blizzard the right to sue him, but that's not what's going on here. This guy SUED them.

As for your own grievances with Blizzard (which are completly unrelated to this topic), think about it. If they have 8,000,000 customers, do you think it's reasonable for them to address every single one of them in a timely manner? It's hardly possible, especially for a company as small (relatively speaking) as Blizzard. The fact that these complaints were brought up here leads me to believe that many of the detractors here would be singing a different tune if it was a developer they weren't bitter at.

being a veteran of WoWGlider and having access to some of the legal documents from the website i have to say that blizz has no case against glider what he is doing is not illegal it does not break EULA it does not reverse engineer WoW code it does most everything on its own and hides its self from being detected by warden which it blizzs security program and believe me its a pain to stay ahead of it but we do and i give all my support to Glider in hopes that blizz cant bully someone that has a genuine product into submission because they feel it loses them revenue hell im pretty sure most people that use this program would have stopped long ago if they had not discovered this program

Yet it's understandable why there would be some people that would be seduced by WOWglider. Let's continue with Thefremen baseball analogy. You can be an honest player, one who has to spend time to take care of a family or work and so you don't have time to train all the time yet you have to compete with some people that practically train all day. It's understandable that some people who don't have the time to put in would be seduced by something that let's them go to work, spend time with the family and when coming back to WOW has at least the chance to have an amount of gold rivaling those who play all day.

Of course botting is wrong but like I wrote before, it's a problem that will persist as long as there is a market for it. That market being made up of people who don't care about taking an unfair advantages over other players AND people who would like the same advantages but do not have the time to put in like the hardcore gamers who play all day. That is why there is a market for gold farmers too. Because there can be a huge difference in the (virtual) assets of casual and hardcore gamers.

"Basically, what seperates WoW from other games is the accessability and the quality of the community/tech support/GM support."

As for that, as I have experienced first hand (like I wrote before, 3 days suspension for a typing mistake), there is still huge room for improvement.

The Eula is a "forced" contract by legal standards by its money behind it that protects it.

Because the personally delivered the cease and desist order it somehow makes a difference? Besides showing they are serious, what is the difference between doing it in person and by registered mail? Blizzard may bully some people but that doesn't make everything they do wrong. Just because you don't like what Blizzard did in unrelated matters doesn't make them wrong here.

I can understand why Blizzard wants the program out of existence, however, the issue I personally have with it, being an MMO player myself, i that it undermines the very idea behind the game in the first place, community. Simply put, if you aren't playing the game yourself, you aren't part of the community. And as mentioned before it can really eff up the economy big time. I'm from the Gaia online forums and on there it's a constant problem. My brother is also a Turf Battles player, which a is a free MMO, and he honestly couldn't recomend it because it isn't friendly to new players, the reason, all the hackers and gold farmers who prey on newbies.

Blizzard has a case. Like was said, they banned him and demanded he stop. Instead, he filed lawsuit against them; I side with Blizzard for filing a countersuit. If the guy wants to play rough, then I see no reason for Blizzard to hold back against him (generally speaking).

Weatherlight:

Economies 101, bots run for 24/7/365 and skin/loot/gather materials. These materials get traded in for Gold, therefore there's more gold in the server. More Gold means that the currency is worth less than it would be without botting. Gold farming is just as bad since once again, it lowers the value of the in-game currency by running a character 24/7/365.

@Brandon

"EULA’s are violations of our rights as consumers, and this kid should only have to face Blizzard; not court."

Keep in mind that it was the guy that sued Blizzard. They banned him, and sent him a cease and desist notice. Pretty standard for someone violating your terms of service and profiting off of your license by doing so. He responded by bringing the courts into it, at which point it only makes sense that Blizzard would file a counter suit.

I have always wanted to play WOW. The guy must be an imbicle to go and pick a fight with Blizzard considering the circumstances. He knew he was violating TOS with this. Well, at least he's honest, I guess.

-Auto

Are you kidding me? I can't believe you people are in favor of legal action in terms of a VIDEO GAME. EULA's are violations of our rights as consumers, and this kid should only have to face Blizzard; not court.

Actually, Blizzard has a very good case even if some of their demands aren't going to be met. As Conejo pointed out, the maker of WoWGlider knew that he was breaking the ToS or EULA so his claim that his program doesn't violate the terms he agreed to doesn't ring true. Most people don't read those things and one could make a case that adhesion contracts don't hold legal weight because the person didn't read or have the chance to modify such an agreement but this person, on his own website, posted a statement that can easily be construed as an acceptance of the contract.

As to your charge of corporate bullying, gs2005, that doesn't make much sense here. Blizzard didn't sue him first. They did what every game maker does in such circumstances; They banned him. He picked a fight and sued them. Blizzard had no choice but to fight back because you can't ignore a law suit. If they don't counterclaim, if they don't fight back, he wins the right to produce WoWGlider. If they really wanted to bully him they would have fought his venue choice. They did not.

If you read the countercomplaint you would have seen that they don't have to prove that they hacked anything. All they have to do is prove that the program is "technology designed for the purpose of circumventing copyright protection systems in violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act" which is an end result metric and not a process metric. This can easily be proven by the website of WoWGlider which essentially says as much. It's a selling point of their monthly fee for Glider Elite.

DrkMatter hit the nail on the head. The problem isn't that he's not playing, it's that his program allows players to buy a few accounts, set them all to go then sit back and watch TV while they all grind to 70. Then he sells the accounts and makes 500$ off each one.

Asshats make decent money off this, and imagine how much more money Donelley was making for selling the program.

If you ask me the guy was an overgrown forum troll who decided to spit in Blizzard's face. He's not going to win a single thing from this court case.

Blizzard Entertainment is known for their corporate bullying, which comes straight from the CEO. Blizzard Entertainment has a very weak case here, so this is more posturing than anything else.

Unless they can somehow prove that WOWGlider is a hack, like BNETD was, they've already lost. This is about end user rights and enforcement, or the legality of the EULA and not much else.

I used to be a fan of Blizzard Entertainment, but they way they acted concerning BNETD changed my attitude forever. Following THE FROZEN THRONE, they will not, nor ever shall, get another penny from me ever again...just to be clear, I am not a huge fan of "bots" per se, but I am no fan of Blizzard Entertainment.

If you need another example of corporate bullying from Blizzard Entertainment, here is one for you:

http://www.commondreams.org/news2006/0609-04.htm

Also I don't like companies that love the DMCA (prohibits some forms of reverse engineering, which is what the PC industry was initially built on), since I do computer programming for a living...

Wow. Blizzard banned him and said knock it off so he decided to pick a fight with them? He's going to be crushed like an ant in front of a steam roller.

I agree with DrkMatter. Blizzards problem was with gold farmers and leveling sellers. THat is one of the reasons why I don't play MMORPGs. There are too many people not treating it like a game. But Blizzard doesn't really care about me, only the lost revenue from me not playing. If they were not in the MMORPG business for money, they would not even care about what this guy was doing. But because he is eating into their profits, they want to crack down on it.

On another note, How many people who bought the game to play it would buy this program? Answer, None. Because they bought it to play it, not watch while a program played it for them. This program is marketed to gold farmers and power level sellers. They just pretend to market it to the average player.

The program features looks mostly harmless to other players. Nothing worse then a kid playing for X hours non stop and in this case the kid has time to do their homework. The issue I see is they are selling their program and Blizzard wants their cut.

lol, why did he even buy the game if he's not going to play it? The bot is pretty cool though.

@Mauler

"...the definition of words beyond common usage...." This is a legal filing being discussed and common use of words doesn't apply. The court has its own language, and it just looks like English but it isn't English.

I've heard, on more than one occasion, that before signing anything that looks legal have a lawyer look it over. Meaning, just because it looks familiar doesn't mean you really understand it.

I can't believe Im about to jump in this debate again but here it goes.

"Unless Defendants are permanently enjoined from doing so, Defendants will continue to assert their perceived rights against plaintiff as well as plaintiff's customers".

Here is the word CONTINUE that you use so much in your argument. What are those perceived rights used against WOWglider customers?

"Initiating and/or maintaining infringement litigation, or threatening litigation against Plaintiff's existing or prospective customers, suppliers, dealers or any users of WOWglider that asserts or charges infringment or other violation of rights owned by Defendants".

There you go. No offense, but since you know for a fact that Blizzard hasnt initiated or threatened litigation against other WOWglider customers you must be rich playing the loto thanks to your all-knowing powers. Though I doubt that will you see that the word "continue" can be applied to but not exclusively as something as minor (in this case) as threatening litigation it just shows that your argument on the word "continue" as no weight. At least until you prove that Blizzard as not inititated or threatened litigation toward WOWglider customers (if they havent done so, they cant "continue" right?). Blizzard could and probably have threatened WOWglider users with litigation at the very least.

You said that it was different because it was a "real life contract" which has the implication that the agreement between Blizzard and their customers is somehow a fantasy world contract. They are both real world contracts so your distinction lacks a difference. You said that the EULA wasn't binding "in that way", as if there is some other way that they are binding, when they clearly are binding "in that way" as the courts have upheld. Your fixation on the word "perceived" is dubious as well as because EULA's have been the basis for suing people for some sort of damages.

You are still ignoring the word "continuing" when addressing his clients. Your evidence of page 2 lines 11-13 is an incident involving himself alone. This is what they are doing to him and him alone. He hasn't mentioned the word customer yet. Find me a customer they have sent a Cease and Desist letter or sued and I will grant you this point. The problem is that customer doesn't exist. He is making a specific claim that Blizzard is doing something to his clients right now and in the past and will be doing something to them in the future. So again, I ask, what action is Blizzard doing right now to the users of Glide that he is asking them to stop doing in the future?

It doesn't matter that the people willingly used Glide for them to seek damages against him. Again I point to the case involving the landlord. People willingly listened and willingly moved out and otherwise cost the landlord money. He was forced to evict said troublemakers at cost to the landlord that he was able to recover. Just because you believe it to be irrelevant doesn't mean that it is actually irrelevant and the body of case law behind it is enough to disprove your interpretations.

You say that Blizzard has the right to enforce the EULA on it's customers. Yet somehow that right isn't included in all of the rights Blizzards holds. The word "all" means everything. It is globally inclusive and yet you somehow manage to exclude it. That is what I mean by twisting words. It's an ill-definition because you can't imagine that he is trying to do what I've shown he is trying to do and the only way around that is to pretend that the word all is somehow not all inclusive. You still have misdefined, or ignored as the case may be, the word continue as well. Somehow you define the word continue to include actions that haven't taken place in the past. It's impossible to continue something you have never done, by standard use of the words, at yet you promote the idea that this is possible.

So either his lawyer used faulty language, which is possible, or he is after something else, which is more likely. Consider this - Blizzard is over reaching in asking for the source code. I don't see how this can be legally done. Why is it impossible for Glide to be doing exactly the same thing by over reaching and attempting to make the courts rule that Blizzard has to accept Glide? That is what the are doing by a close reading of the text.

---

@Davian2K5

Glide is saying "we didn't touch your copyright so back off us and our customers."

Blizzard is saying "You've violated our copyright and forced us to ban folks so quit selling it, give us the source code, pay us for the people we had to ban, and pay our lawyers plus whatever the court wants to add on."

Blizzard is bringing their A game to this party.

"... WOWGLIDER software reads the RAM hashes dedicated to health, mana, character location, monster loaction, etc, and then programs a routine set of actions based on a set path, then emulating keystrokes."

First, I think it is an interesting debate over whether or not reading an applications proprietary data in memory is a violation of copyright.

Secondly, and I suspect more likely to be a factor in this case, I wonder, how do you think someone might figure out how to decipher the incredibly complex data structures used in WoW? Reverse engineering? Possibly. I think that is unlikely however. ;) I'll apply Occam's razor to this one.

@the1jeffy

LOL, good one.

Do you not agree that it would be important to understand how the program works before declaring that it does not violate a copyright?

IMO, if you understood what it is doing you would understand why Blizzard is on firm ground with it's complaint regarding copyright infringement.

But, you are right, I am a tease. I prefer to toss the idea out there for those willing to do the research and think for themselves as it is my experience that telling people on the internet what they should think is rather pointless.

Those that are going to understand my point will do so just as well without me spelling it out - in fact, they'll probably understand it better if they think it through themselves.

Again, since apparently lots of words make a difference to some ;) ...

Do you not agree that it would be important to understand how the program works before declaring that it does not violate a copyright?

"A contract is a real life contract. To suggest that there isn’t a contractual agreement between Blizzard and the players of WoW is pure folly. The courts have already ruled in favor of a Blizzard EULA once, Blizzard v. BnetD, and to suggest that a EULA can’t be enforced is bizzare for two reasons."

There is a contract. I never said there was not. I said that a EULA is not cause for legal action (lawsuit), it only serves to protect Blizzard from action by it's customers. The EULA does not say: "We reserve the right to sue you if you break this agreement," it says, "We can break our service with you at will if you break it." Period.

I never said that EULA's are 'toothless' because as you so astutely researched - they are upheld in court as a contract. What you fail to realize, and I probably haven't been clear on, is that contract (EULA) does not carry over to the 'perceived right' to sue. They are taking the EULA where is hasn't gone before in saying that breaking it cause for lawsuit.

"He filed to protect his sales. Sales that are being threatened by both DMCA and bans. Once again you are ignoring the fact that he used the word continue when talking about the clients. What action is Blizzard taking now against the clients that they must stop doing now and in the future? Until you can provide any piece of evidence that they are moving against clients using the DMCA, and you can’t because they are not, then the only action that this could possibly refer to is bans. Which is why you have once again ignored this issue."

I haven't ignored it and fully addressed it. It is standard practice for a business, when filing suit for an injunction against certain actions for itself, also extends this protection for it's customers.

The word 'continue' that you are hanging your hat on is not the big issue you want it to be. Further up in the document (Page 2 Lines 11-13) you'll see the actions Blizzard is currently doing: Threatening legal complaints. That's what this Request for Injuction is trying to prevent.

"The harm being done to Blizzard is that they are losing clients."

Irrelevant. Customers that choose to purchase a Bot do so of their own free will, and this is not the fault of Donnelly. Hence, Donnelly is not legally liable.

"This is easy to prove and the evidence can be show by ban appeals. People who can’t play anymore and want to play again. People who can’t play anymore and want to play again. You can argue that they can re-instate the account but the loss of reputation from doing such is actionable too. People quit when they find out that cheaters, as defined by Blizzard, are allowe to play again."

Irrelevant to this case. Ban appeals appear nowhere in any filed document. This case is ONLY about whether or not Blizzard has the legal right to sue Donnelly's business for production of WOWGLIDER.

Please enlighten me to exactly what words I am 'twisting.' This arguement, and your misinterpretation of my responses, is starting to make me question your reading comprehension, but I am willing to admit I might not be making myself a clear as I'd like. I apologize for not being more clear in my posts, but I am very busy today and don't have time to edit them for clarity as much as I'd like. And you seem to have taken my stubborn comment as an insult. Please, none was intended. Anyone familiar with my posts around here would know that it is much more obvious when I intend to insult someone. I realize you aren't familiar with my style, and the misunderstanding stems from there. (See below for a sample)

@ feasmira

Please, O font of immaculate wisdom, enrich our lives with more jewels of wisdom. By all means, don't tease us with tantalizing hints of how much smarter you are than all of us! You must put it beyond all doubt by clouting us about the head with our own stupidity with posts of actual content, instead of laughing at our ignorance! We deserve the extra abuse, O giver of all knowledge . . . You have shown us soooo much in that two-sentance post that proves just how wrong we all are! Praise be unto feasmira!

The lawsuit you linked it about breach of a real-life contract (Landlord's Lease), NOT a EULA. This what you are continually failing to realize: EULA's are not legally binding in that way - they serve only to proctect a software company from legal action based on improper use or serve to allow legal cessation of a client's use of the software.

Specifically: the most a banned user can get out of Blizzard is a refund in full in under 30-days. A user cannot sue Blizzard to get un-banned or to prevent the banning of his customers.

That's all well and good. But if you care to read both Donnelly's site, his filing, and the evidence put forward, both in the case and subsequent statements reported here and elsewhere - it's very clear that Donnelly only filed suit to protect himself and customers from lawsuits, that were threatened, in person, by due representatives of Blizzard's legal team.

This is not about breach of contract. Donnelly admits freely on his site that using Glider is a breach of contract (EULA), but that breach of contract should be, and legally is, only limited to the continued use of Blizzard's software. This does not and should not equate to a legally liable situation where Blizzard is compelled to protect itself by filing suit against Donnelly.

Where is the harm done to Blizzard? Is Donnelly misleading people that use the software? No. Does he force people to use his software? No. Each user of Glider aknowledges it's risks and understands that Blizzard can and will ban them at will.

The only harm to Blizzard is in-game harm (difficult, if impossible to prove), and by Blizzard's own EULA, in-game items/economy/levels/gold have NO REAL MONETARY value, hence no legal reason to seek damages from Donnelly. The other 'harm' is ephemeral - can Blizzard prove that the Glider software unduly entices Blizzard customers to break the EULA, and by doing so equate that to lost revenue? That is difficult to prove, and is the focus of Blizzard's counter-suit.

"What is the action against the user of Glider that will continue, as the plaintiff used?"

The perceived right that the defendants (Blizzard) are asserting in threatening legal action against Donnelly, and in absentia, his customers. Basically, Donnelly is aware that if he is legally liable to pay damages to Blizzard, so are his customers. This also opens himself to further liability if one of his customers files suit against him to re-coup damages sought by Blizzard. So, once again, he filed suit simply to protect himself from this. He wants for his customers what he wants for himself - protection from Blizzard 'perceiving' that they have the 'right' to sue.

The extension of protection for a business's customers is standard practice to further protect the business.

Oh, and stubborn mind is hardly ad-hominem. I was orginally going to go with, "Completely lacking in reading comprehension skills," but decided to give you the benefit of the doubt, hence: You are just being stubborn instead. Was I mistaken? Being quite stubborn myself (as you so kindly pointed out), I didn't think of this as bad, necessarily.

The real debate should be over whether Blizzard was the right to sue for real-world damages over a 3rd party product that is against their EULA. It's an attempted extension of EULA's into legality that we as consumers of software should be watching very carefully. Whether or not Donnelly is seeking re-instatement is NOT the debate because he very clearly is not. (And would be stupid to try)

I would just like to say that it's good to see some actual debate. Usually comments on topics like these are consistantly down on 'the man'. This story is not black and white, and with the exception of a few blind comments, there has been some very good debate for both sides of the line. Points to the community for having a mature conversation, this kind of talking lends creditability to the site and the view points.

Good stuff.

Sigh. One last attempt to beat this into a stubborn mind.

Legal Right: Blizzard has the legal right to terminate the client/service relationship it has with a customer for any reason as it sees fit.

This is a fact that no one is contesting.

"Perceived Right" is NOT the same thing. Blizzard 'perceived' that it had the right to threaten legal action against Donnelly, perceived that it has the right to C&D his business, and 'perceived' it thad the right award itself the content of his program. (Presumeably so they can reverse engineer it for addition to their Warden)

This is completely the point of Donnelly's filing. This is entirely why this case is so intriguing - it's not cut and dry for Blizzard and I can't help but wonder how they feel they can succeed.

Basically Donnelly created a third party controller for WoW. He then sold it, giving his customers due warning that Blizzard will ban its users. He did so in such a way that he didn't crack or modify the game's code - leaving him free of the DMCA and IP arguement.

It's interesting indeed, but it is not about Donnelly wanting to be free of getting banned. He just wants protection from lawsuits for himself and his customers (he is legally liable if he puts them into a legally liable situation).

I really don't know how else to state it.

I think we'll keep on disagreeing on this because I still believe you're reading this inaccurately while you're believing I do the same but I'm loving this argument so will continue just for argument sake.

Paragraph 15 of his lawsuit states “Unless Defendants are permanently enjoinded from doing so, Defendants will continue to assert their percieved rights against Plaintiff as well as Plaintiff’s customers.”

100% right but again it's not about banning WOWglider users. As stated "Blizzard and Vivendi have requested that the WoWGlider website be shut down, sale and development of the WoWGlider program be halted, and the rights to all WoWGlider materials including source code and domain name be awarded to Blizzard". Those are the perceived rights from Blizzard.

Paragraph 16 of his lawsuit states that Blizzards charges “… constitutes grave and wrongful interference with the business of the Plaintiff in the District.”

If Blizzard claims and makes it known that in their opinion WOWglider violates copyrights owned by Blizzard and that they intend to sue people who use WOWglider it will deter people buying WOWglider. Not the fact that using WOWglider is susceptible to banning because it is already stated on the WOWglider website and thus is not a deterrent caused by Blizzard.

interesting story. i cant wait to see where this thing goes.

I didnt put it in the quoted remarks because its essentially repeating the same but saying WOWGlider customers instead of WOWglider creators. If you think the part about the cutomers adds credence to your claim why don't you put it up? Everytime I put up quotes and ask you to point out where in the suit it says what you are saying you don't. You say it's in the part I didnt put up but you don't put up those parts either so basically you are making claims but you show nothing for it.

"If the courts say that he is allowed to sell it then his customers are allowed to use it. Any attempt at Blizzard to stop them could be construed as an infringment of his rights."

You may have a point there but that point would have to be settle in another suit because it has nothing to do with the present one. This one is about copyrights infringement, about if WOWglider creators and users violate copyright laws.

"Stopping people from using it is an attempt at stopping him from selling it and they have been enjoined from doing that if the courts order in his favor."

No they are two different things. If the courts order in his favor then Blizzard cannot threaten to sue or continue to sue for copyrights violation. They still can do pretty much they want about EULA violation. Like I said, this would have to be settled in another suit. This one is about copyrights violation.

Last new from Blizz Europe!

"Accounts Banned for Game Exploitation 04/05/07 In our continued efforts to combat cheating in World of Warcraft, more than 114,000 accounts have been closed across Europe in the month of April for the use of "bot" programs. The banned accounts were taking part in activities that violate the World of Warcraft Terms of Use, specifically, using unauthorised third party programs to automate game-play. Such behaviour not only negatively impacts the game's economy, it diminishes the achievements of those who play legitimately.

It is our goal to provide a fair and enjoyable play experience for all World of Warcraft players. To aid us, we ask that you abide by the Terms of Use, which, among other things, provide for the security of your account details, payment methods and login information, all of which can be compromised if you choose to use third-party services or programs.
Over the coming months, we will continue to take an active and aggressive stance against botting, as well as work to resolve other issues such as in-game advertising for the sale of World of Warcraft content and for-pay power-levelling services. Many account closures come as the direct result of tips reported to our GMs in game or emailed to our Hacks Team by legitimate World of Warcraft players, and we thank you for your assistance in preserving the integrity of the game experience."

As Gs2005 said "The EULA is a formalized business tactic that allows a company to try to control what you do with their product. “By using this product, you agree to do this, and not do that, etc.” It can, depending on the fine print and stated objectives, take away consumer rights."

I AGREE 100%

I just had my account banned while I was talking with my friends 1000 miles away. The reason? "This account has been found to have employed third party software designed to automate many aspects of the World of Warcraft game play experience." Only thing is, I never used any such program, nor would I have any desire to do so.

A few days later, I get a reply from Blizzard advising me that I let someone use my account who used a third party program. Again NOT TRUE! But makes me worried that my account may have been hacked!?!

Last try to contact Blizzard, I get a reply from aasupervisor@blizzard.com who advises me that "You willingly shared your account with an unauthorized third party, but may not have been aware of such actions." (Does that scare anyone else!)

So now, a level 45 paladin, 3 months of playing WOW and $60.00 worth of fees is gone in a flash. What can I do about it as a consumer? NOTHING. I'm not a lawyer, I don't have millions of dollars to spend trying to fight a company like Blizzard.

I agreed to the terms of use that stated "you follow our rules, we can change them when we want, we will never give you your money back or repay you for the pain we've caused, life sucks get a helmet!"

I see that many of you on this forum have sided with Blizzard over the use of WoW glider. But what about every consumer that gets hurt along the way because Blizzard cares little for anything but the almight dollar. What if Microsoft decided to use the same business model to say "You can buy our program, but we can take it away whenever we want" Would you buy it then? (O wait, they did that with Vista!)

All I'm saying here guys is that we as consumers needs to stand up for each other. If large companies like Blizzard continue to crush the little people because "they can", and we stand by and do nothing because we don't want to get involved. What's going to happen when a company like Blizzard comes after you?

And to Azzman for example... What does having a wife, job and life have to do with anything? I work about 50+ hours a week, I have a very well paid job, I play sports, I have a fiance, I go out pretty much every weekend. Doesnt mean I should just buy all my gold, bot all my levels, etc. It is a lame excuse

Do you sit and have a game of monopoly with your family but let someone take all your turns until it comes to the very last go then join in? Should long distance runners have a stand in do the majority of the race, then just take over on the final stretch? Give it a rest. It is just a very lousy excuse to be lazy. You didnt achieve a thing by having some bot get all your levels.

I hope Glider is soon banned along with any other bot program.

azzman Says:

April 24th, 2007 at 3:50 am
I use glider. have for about 6 months
i dont farm gold
i dont farm mats
i level characters to 60/70 so i can experience end game content

i know about 30-40 people that use it for this purpose

once they get to end game they dont bot

i have a wife a job a footy team a LIFE!

Blizzard and other gaming companies could simply and easily stop all of these problems by removing the ability of player to trade/buy/sell with other players. This would keep the game economy level and would immediatly stop gold farming etc. It would also level the playing field from casual players and hardcore players. You would only be able to sell/but from NPC characters. All items would be obtained by vendor purchases or drops. Simple and easy.

Of course, people would still want to bot to grind levels. To combat this, require quests etc. to level. This would require actually playing the game and being part of the game community.

Of course Blizzard and other companies will not do this. They make WAY TOO much money allowing gold sellers, botters etc. to play. They make a fortune from banning these people (not offering refunds of any kind) and then selling them new accounts. They are basically doubling or even tripling their monthly income from these players. Just check the Glider website if you don't believe me. Users there are proud of how many accounts they've had and how many times they've been banned.

It boils down to money, nothing more. Blizzard WANTS people to break the EULA and be banned, it's more revenue for them.

http://www.feelingame.com

[...] Blizzard, Bot Program Creator File New Motions Against Each Other March 24th, 2008 | Category: Gaming News You may recall that, about a year ago, World of Warcraft publisher Blizzard sued computer whiz Michael Donnelly, creator of a popular WoW botting program known as Glider. [...]

I see so many people comlpainging that people who use bots don't know how to play there class. There are many players like myself that just use glider for very limited purposes.

I use it to raise my fishing skill, or to run from one city to another at low levels. For fishing i am not gaining skill any faster then if i did it manually, I sit at the keyboard the entire time, i am just avoiding the monotonous pressing of the fishing hot key and shift right clicking the bobber. Othere then that i have leveled my char myself through quests and grinding for countless hours.

It comes down to "work smarter not harder" and above all else...It is a game, not real life or a reflection of your life so chill out and let the lawyers figure this out. Half of you are writing about stuff the lawsuit is not even relevent to.

Blizz is going to have a very hard time in court, simply becuase the EULA is not the LAW,  if they sell a product or service, they can only regulate that service they provide, not someone elses that has no real impact on thiers.