April 17, 2007
Is the virtual violence found in video games a sin? As reported by the Express-Times (Easton, PA), Christian video game developer Peter Fokos (seen at left with business partners) raises the issue as he considers violent games:
In video games you can commit virtual sin by murdering and sexually assaulting people. But if it's sin to do in real life is it a sin to do it in a video game? I think if you're a believer you really have to consider that question.
In 2005 Fokos and two partners formed Digital Praise, a development studio for Christian-themed games like Adentures in Odyssey and Dance Praise. Said Fokos:
I like to use the analogy that whatever you put into your body is what you become, like that phrase 'you are what you eat. Just the same way you don't want to breathe dirty air or eat bad food you don't want to do things that are going to be bad for your mind and for your spirit.
GP: Readers, is the fantasy violence found in video games a sin? It's an interesting question for Christian gamers, especially given the New Testament's position that sexual fantasy is sinful:
You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matthew 5:27)
Comments
Re: Is Video Game Violence a Sin?
You cant agree that violent video games give a positive influence...
"Are you implying that you believe that a group of people freely choosing to live their lives in accordance with a set of morals that says that desiring something is bad even if you don’t actually do it is the same as state sponsored, harsh persecution of people who say or think anything contrary to the State’s ideas? "
Sorry if my last post came out wrong.
What I am trying to say was, why there always exist group of people(government or otherwise) who wish to censor or sway the though of the mass to their agenda.
I have nothing against it if that group of people choose to live out what they believe in, but it is a totally different matter if they want someone else who do not follow their believe to practice the same. While condemning those who do not follow suit as sinner/unpatriotic/uncivilized/whatsnot(depending on who the group are).
Communist China once did it to hide fact of starvation, now they practice Internet censorship. While religious group in my current country condemn people of different religion as sinners, and politician using Patriotism to condole obvious act of self profiting.
Sorry again for anyone offended by my previous post.
...according to your specific interpretation of the portions of bible regarding sinful thoughts. I've already told you that I disagree with you, and why, and that such disagreements are common in christianity, and yet we all seem to get along alright.
The basic tenet of the bible regarding sinful thoughts is that if you really want to do something that is bad, then that's sinful, even if you don't actually do it (obviously, the consequences are usually much less severe than actually doing the bad thing). You seem to interpret this much more strictly than I interpret it. That is fine with me. What isn't so fine with me is that you *seem* to be implying that because I disagree with you, I must be a bad christian or not a true christian at all. If you don't mean to make that implication, then I apologize for misreading your posts.
We christians hold many beliefs about many different things and many different issues. Many of these beliefs we hold onto lightly: others, such as Jesus being Lord and Savior, we hold onto tightly. There's a kind of tacit agreement between differing groups not to make a big deal about the issues we hold onto lightly, such as whether or not playing a violent video game constitutes a sinful thought. For one group to claim another group not to be true christians based on disagreement about a lightly held belief is considered supremely insulting and unnecessary.
I think there are a few reasons why you might get the impression that Christians are attacked on this website. One, pretty simply is that people might write in absolutes, but that is not the intent. When I say I'm tired of Christians bashing video games, I don't mean all Christians, just some. However, it's much easier and quicker to leave out the "some" because I think that the reader should be able to infer that I don't literally mean to impugn all Christians. It's kind of like when you're having an argument with somebody close to you and you accuse them of "always" saying something or doing something to you. Of course, you don't really mean "always" but in the heat of the argument that's the easiest and possibly most effective rhetoric to use.
The second reason is that since 9/11, it seems as if the only specfically Christian voices that are heard are from the Christian Right. It seems as if they've turned Christianity from the loving, tolerant, compassionate religion that many believe it is and into the opposite. It seems as if Christianity today is defined by what you can't do rather than what you can do. It's made judging others not only OK, but necessary. I and many others always thought that Jesus was against the judgment of others. When gamers hear of Christian Right forces like Jack Thompson and Sam Brownback trying take away our gaming freedoms its kind of scary because we know that this is an unofficial Christian nation and that if these guys represent Christianity today, then the games we like are in jeopardy.
It is dumb for posters to attack those they agree with, but I can understand why they do given the current face of Christianity in this country. I wish moderate and liberal Christians would take a more forceful stand against their conservative counterparts and remind them that there is alot more important issues to focus on, like poverty. If the public image of Christianity can return to its more Jesus-like ways then I think you would notice a difference on this board and all forums where Christians and non-Christians meet.
God of War...well...there is that one scene with two women...
Crackdown on the other hand...you're one of the good guys who's getting rid of the gang members so the cities can be safe. Although you can kill civilians and get away with it, that means squat.
April 17th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
"Question for you."
Me? :-)
"If you get angry playing an FPS game and seek revenge (threatening to kill that bastard, wishing him ill, generally being not a nice person towards your enemy) could that be considered sinful behaviour."
I'd say if it gets that extreme, where you are actually wishing and/or seeking to bring harm upon a person, then yeah, that's probably not a good thing to do. If it's just a little competitive frustration, I don't see the harm in it. I typically tell people, "I will KILL you" when I'm playing against them at a LAN party, but we're all friends and we all know it's harmless competitive jibber-jabber.
"Pushing the idea close to it’s very limit is it sinful to want the equiptment of your friends in an MMO… coveting your neighbours goods and all that."
Maybe...I dunno. I don't play MMOs so I can't really comment on the mentality of the people who do. I'd say if you're thinking about it or coveting it so much that it interferes with the relationship between you and your friend, then you should probably quit being so silly.
"If you see your character in the sims as a virtual realisation of yourself and you entice it to commit adultery is that sinful."
I'd say it depends on you're attitude about it. If you're all, "Hey guys, come look at these Sims humping, lol," then it's probably pretty harmless. If your setting up your Sims to commit Simdultery because it helps you fantasize about cheating on your wife, then that would be a problem. But think about this; maybe your setting up your Sim you to commit adultery to see how things turn out, how doing so affects the relationships he has. You could essentially be creating a story about your life if you made some very different decisions. That would be both enlightening and not sinful, in my opinion.
"It’s an interesting point to have been raised… shame some people just took it as “lololol teh Byble says things what are outdated” rather than a philosophical question. Meh"
Agreed.
"Will virtual praying get me into heaven?"
- Rev. Lovejoy
Didn't know that was possible...
More relevant than the verse about adultery, I think, are the verses about the "unclean" foods and eating rituals (Mark 7:13-23). The key verse here:
(15) "Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.'"
This comes from the New International Version:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%207;&version=31;
I can see why you might go to the adultery part first, though there's certainly a lot of contention around whether that actually condemns 'thought crime.' It's in the context of calling out the Pharisees for being hypocrites, and basically telling people that they should strive to be perfect. Among most Christian denominations, the verse above about uncleanliness is actively in use, having been taken to undo the long-standing food proscriptions in Hebrew law. If you're going to use a 'consumption' metaphor for video game play (i.e., something you put into yourself), you're essentially putting it on the same level as animals with the wrong kind of hooves.
Buuut...no. Now, that may be because I have no belief in the Bible, but who's to say, heh.
Definitely a gray area, but the most important thing is what goes on upstairs.
Whats next we gonna stone our kids if they show a hint of rebellion?how about "not suffering a witch to live"huh?looks like a real great moral compass now doesn't it >.>.
Okay, granted, not everyone is Catholic, but still...
it would be fine is he talked about games that actually existed, but then again, this is a guy who's 'developed' games that no one has heard of, or bought. Fromt he sounds of it, very very religious games.
Last thing we need though is the extreme right telling us that the children across the nation are committing digital adultery and breaking commandments by owning a copy of GTA.
Also, I find it funny this guy calls himself a game developer. Hey, I used RPG Maker 2000 once, does that make me a game developer too?
Yes, if you are Christian. But, then you'll have a few Christian sects that weasel into explaining away the sin inherent in their hobby.
I want to be clear, I don't think there is anything wrong with video games of any sort, from a personal moral perspective. But to historical and standard Christian morals (The Gospels), the sin of thought is equated to actually acting on those thoughts. Historically, I am willing to write that off as a simple reason to get followers to reconcile their sins more often because even thoughts are sinful, and therefore getting more coins in the coffer. But modern Christianity, seems to want to take this to the next step and police thoughts. Specifically, I am referring to Christian moralists. I define that as a member of any particular brand of Christianity who believes that because his/her faith includes the "My faith is the only correct one" clause, that this gives them motive to control other people's morality.
I hope that I've been specific enough in the last paragraph so as to not offend ALL Christians - just the specific mind-set of some Christians.
Here's a fun fact. Most physcologists say that masterbation is healthy and normal to do. Sexual fantasies are also healthy and it doesnt mean your a bad person at all. The church teaches that both of these are sinful and wrong. Simply because they are. Right.....
Watching porn can give actual physical arousal.
Playing a video game doesn't put you into a blood lust.
Where did I "rag on" Christianity?
@ Uncle Midriff
"Are you a christian? If so, are you Catholic or protestant? If Catholic, which kind(Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc.)? If Protestant, what denomination? Baptist? Southern Baptist? Methodist? Church of Christ? Pentecostal? Presbyterian? Episcopal? Non-denominational?"
All Christians can believe what they want. But specifically, the major sects of Christianity, namely Catholicism (Both Orthodoxies), Protestant (basic Protesant beliefs as laid down by Luther during the Reformation), and by extention the modern Lutheran Churches all teach the idea of "The Sin of Thought." This is a fairly pervasive idea throughout most Christian doctrines. Not ALL, of course, but enough to make a fairly strong case for video-games being sinful from a typical Christian perspective.
Anyway, the idea that you can't compare Christianity as a whole is rather silly. There are plenty of Christian universal ideas. If not, the word Christian begins to lose any meaning. Basic Christian tenets are laid down fairly explicitly in the 4 Gospels and the subsequent Epistles. Now there are infinite colors in the Christian rainbow, to turn a cute phrase. But, when compared to other major world religions, the differences between Christian Sects are utterly insignificant.
When seen from the inside, the minor details are huge, and the notion that the difference between, for instance: a Priest or a Reverend, is insignificant when compared to a Reverend and a Brahman, is particularly troublesome for Christians who can't see the forest for the trees. But when seen from the outside, these differences are only barely noteworthy. And this is a problem because most Christians wear these differences like a badge of pride, and my simple pointing out of a specific fairly ubiquitous theme is viewed as "ragging" or an attack. I assure you that no attack is really intended, I only offer an alternative, outside viewpoint.
My line: "People who want to call themselves Christian can explain away their guilt as they wish, but Christian doctrine says otherwise."
I guess I should explain that more clearly. My point was: The reaction to the question of whether violent video games are sinful seems an excercise in reconciling one's hobby as "OK" to Christianity, but when basic tenets of the Gospel differ from that hobby.
Not really, they're just saying that for Christian gamers (or religious gamers of any really) to consider if what they're playing is a sin. Jacky-boy pins crimes on games; these people are just saying "just watch what you're doing and what games you play".
If you get angry playing an FPS game and seek revenge (threatening to kill that bastard, wishing him ill, generally being not a nice person towards your enemy) could that be considered sinful behaviour.
Pushing the idea close to it's very limit is it sinful to want the equiptment of your friends in an MMO... coveting your neighbours goods and all that.
If you see your character in the sims as a virtual realisation of yourself and you entice it to commit adultery is that sinful.
It's an interesting point to have been raised... shame some people just took it as "lololol teh Byble says things what are outdated" rather than a philosophical question. Meh
The bible does have very important lessons...at the end of the day, Jebus was a good guy.
But there are parts of the bible that represented the moral attiudes of the time, and thus, should be taken with a grain of salt.
Consider that.
As Uncle mentioned there are many different takes so why shut out those whose take does not go against yours? My understanding, intent. If I imagined you dying in a shooting, I am not killing you in my heart. If I want you to die in a shooting for real, fantasy or no, I am.
As for sins being forgivable there is only one that is said to be unforgivable and that is to "deny the Holy Spirit". Some say that means not becoming a believer, others say it means to equate the HS with evil.
But everything else is forgivable.
As for the sexual fantasy, since the term adultery is used, I don't think it means all sexual fantasy, just those about someone other than your wife. So I guess if you want to go to town on your wife in your head your fine.
For the Bible encourages genocide, I present the entire book of Joshua. The Israelites move into the Canaanites' land and slaughter them "to the last man, woman, and child" claiming divine approval for their actions. That is the mass murder of an ethnic group, and as it is divinely ordained, and as the victims included the young or pregnant women, I believe that it condones the massacres of innocents, which I find morally reprehensible.
As for the Bible condoning rape, near the end of Judges, the tribe of Benjamin was nearly destroyed during a war, and to help rebuild their numbers, they were told to abduct innocent women. That constitutes as condoning rape, something else I find morally reprehensible.
If my godless morals are far stricter than the Bible's, it suggests there is a problem with the Bible.
Some christian sects believe that intent has nothing to do with it. Murder is killing and vice versa. The difference is whether the sin is forgivable or not.
Mark's line can be interpreted different ways. Since he's talking about lust, does he mean unhealthy lust, or sexual fantasy? Lust that consumes you, as the sinful version does, or merely sexual attraction to your partner?
As for virtual sinning, Is it really killing if you don't see the virtual characters as human? Does drawing a person, then erasing them, count as "killing" a non-real person?
Who are you kidding. Of course video game filth is sinful, as is every other kind of filth. Video games are just like pornography. If you've got no problem with media that destroys actual flesh and blood relationships while subtituting them with virtual ones(as both video games and pornography do) then no big deal. But if you see pornography as sinful, then video games are too--probably moreso.
BTW posting a few links does not make you a credible authority on christian doctrine.
Murder and killing are two different words for a reason. What separates the two? Intent. If you take a life it's killing (even accidental). If you take a life with malicious intent, it's murder. When playing a game you know you are not really killing anyone or thing therefore it is not even doing it in the heart. So it is not relevant.
But you know what? Why not stuff all christians into your little ignorant template of who they should be. Let’s convince all christians that they should hate videogames or game violence because it makes you feel superior to call them hypocrites. Let’s make sure that the percentage of christians who now enjoy games, turn on games and demand that they be outlawed and so forth. That would be brilliant and justify all the BS you've built over the years as to why you should belittle them.
"Now, people who want to call themselves Christian can explain away their guilt as they wish, but Christian doctrine says otherwise."
Are you a christian? If so, are you Catholic or protestant? If Catholic, which kind(Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc.)? If Protestant, what denomination? Baptist? Southern Baptist? Methodist? Church of Christ? Pentecostal? Presbyterian? Episcopal? Non-denominational?
You speak of christianity as if it were some massive, unified whole, and it just isn't. There are about as many ways to interpret the Bible as there are people who deem it worthy to do so. About the only thing we have in common is the idea that Jesus Christ was a really special guy. So, when you say that "Christian doctrine" says otherwise, I don't really know what you're talking about.
I don't mean this post rudely, and I hope it won't come across that way. All I'm trying to say is that even if you post 3,000 links to 3000 different websites that all say, explicitly, that playing violent video games is a sin, it doesn't mean that all christians believe that it is. A person can disagree with that and still consider himself a christian.
Example: The Shakers (I believe that's who it was).
NO sex. At all. Even married. Ever. And yet they still managed to reach numbers in the thousands (six thousand-some I read). Well, until it started to decline, that is.
Okay, I got it! The world's next huge game! SimMonk! You create a monk, and it'll play like The Sims or The Sims 2. You control his daily life! Meditate at the golden statue of whatever diety it is! Do daily chores! Eat! Go to sleep! And do it again the next day! THE EXCITEMENT!*
*No form of talking or rude gestures are programmed into the game. Or any hair. Rated E for Everyone by the ESRB.
"A religion could not survive if its adherents were unable to think about its rules."
Interesting, we agree on that point at least.
"Dear Lord, what were you smoking when you read the bible? Rape encouraged? WTF? That’s just ridiculous. And Genocide? You need to study more of the history and culture. That’s like claiming the US, Russia, and England all commited genocide on the Germans in the 40s. Uncontextual and false generalizations hardly help a discussion."
http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm
Now, I hate to even bring that site up, because many, if not all of their conclusions are wrong, or hyperbole. But that site is a useful reference for all of the relevant Bible passages that either condone rape, or at the least turn a blind eye to rape in the heat of battle. I suggest you actually 'study history' yourself. It was common practice for cultures to put all enemy men to the slaughter and take their virgin daughters as 'prizes' until well past the time of Jesus. If that's not rape, then I guess I don't know what it is.
INTERNAL SIN or THE SIN OF THOUGHT:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm
http://www.dougbrittonbooks.com/onlinebiblestudies-temptationandovercomi...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_sin
Please, tell me again how this idea isn't a part of Christianity? Now, I will repeat that I find NOTHING WRONG with violent entertainment personally, with the expectation that a person should be able to differentiate between fantasty and reality.
Now, I read the, "I didn't desire to kill any living thing," rebuttal, but how is gibbing your fellow man in fantasy world any different than thinking about it? Fanasty gore is still thinking about it, desire or intent aside. Nothing in what I've read in Christian teachings say, "It's ok to sin internally if you don't really desire or intend to sin for real." The Christian teaching says (to summarize), "Sinful thoughts can lead to sinful practices, so they should be avoided just the same as acts." So, Yes, video game violence, or any violent media for that matter, is sinful from a Christian viewpoint.
Now, people who want to call themselves Christian can explain away their guilt as they wish, but Christian doctrine says otherwise.
game over loser find somewhere else to troll.
Then again, I've also protected innocents, defeated horrible men who only desired destruction and murder, protected a city from the wrath of a God, sought the truth of my kings murder, and brought justice to multiple evil men. Just like I do everyday in real life!
Wait a minute. Something seems wrong here. Is it possible that people are generalizing just about everything? Could there be many condemable and redeeming qualities in virtually (forgive the pun) everything (relegion, video games, people, etc)? Nah, I must have just forgotten to take my anti-crazy pills this morning.
@ AJ and Nrxia
Great logic! If virtual sinning is wrong, then virtual repenting should get me into heaven! I gotta start donating to the virtual churches and praying in games now!
@ ~the1jeffy
Ok, just to be sure, you disagree with the view that you can sin in video games right?
@ Oscar K
Jack? Is that you? Video game filth? Equating video games with pornography? Since when did video games or pornography destroy anyone in any way? I've never seen the FBI report on that horrible crime spree. Very few games even allow you to kill innocents, and even in those its a choice. The only filth I've seen all day has been your comments! Buzz Off!
I could see it now. If I set my character to pray for hours on end I must surely be able to go to heaven. Not much else to do since most quests require a bit of violence just to get high enough level to finish them.
"I think the point of that verse is that every time you see an attractive women you shouldn't think "Man I want to fuck that like a goat on wheels"."