Good debate. Very civil. If only JT could've been in it. He might of learned a thing or two about manners. Oh well.

The thing with Oblivion and a lot of other PC games is the whole mod issue. Maybe they should add a "modifiable content" descriptor? O_o

I, like other commenters, am disappointed that nobody bothered to refute the "800 hours" argument. No game has ever been that long -- not even close. I played Oblivion thoroughly and "only" clocked in at about 140 hours.

The current review and rating system is fine. If you are shown the -worst possibly content in the game-, you don't need to play through it at all.

It was brought up that R-rated move ticket sales to minors occur at a frequency roughly equal with M-rated game sales, but nobody went any further with that idea. It would have been great if someone said, "Do we need to have laws regulating move ticket sales, since -clearly- that system is failing too?"

oh well. There's always next debate.

Nice debate, wish I could have attended, but I never have time for stuff like that anymore. good thing there are transcripts, thanks for the link, that was a good read.

I just did not like that guy from the ptc, he was a little rude if you ask me, yee was great, though instead of legislation I think yee should meet with representatives of the industry and discuss how they can deal with the M rated problem here, such as launch a campaign teaching parents how to use the tools at their disposal.

I feel like such a dolt for mis reading the time for the event and missing it. After dennis went through the trouble fo giving me a pass to it I wind up missing it. Thankfully, it's nice to see the transcript. Thats pretty neat.

Thanks again dennis, next time I won't be such a goof and miss the event.

Anyone else notice that the pro-game people were the only ones to use capital letters in their SN's?

"Second, games are actually very repetitive. You don’t need to review all 100 hours of FFVIII."

So if they shot three cops in Grand Theft Auto, they can be done with it? They never would have found Hot Coffee (not that they would of anyway, but for the sake of argument, stick with me here).

It is impossible to play through each game. You can't play through Madden, because lets say a disgruntled programmer inserted a porn scene if you win the franchise mode in year 26. That would mean the ESRB would need to play every year, and win, in order to find the content. When exactly do you "finish" Madden?

MMOs are another beast. How long before a full review is truly a "full" review? These games could go on for a lifetime.

I dislike Yee's 800 hours point, his argument that parents can't personally review obscenely long games. Has any game ever been *that* long? I think Final Fantasy VIII can clock in at roughly 100 hours (but I know I didn't take that long), I can't speak to newer RPGs, which are typically the longest games going.

The idea that the games are too long to be reviewed is absurd. First, most games aren't that long. Second, games are actually very repetitive. You don't need to review all 100 hours of FFVIII. Third, that's why there are ratings and descriptors. I applaud any parent who actually wants to watch every movie and TV show, read every book and play every game that their kid does, but that's truly unrealistic. That's why there are ratings. Trust the ratings. The ratings are good. Even the incidents of "spectacular failure" of the ESRB (GTA: SA) are not valid arguments about the validity of the system. Leaving aside that it was only one game, the idea that Hot Coffee was the part that made the game inappropriate for kids is ludicrous.

The "anti"-game people don't seem to offer much that's useful to the US debate. For them it seems to be all about some regulation that keeps the games away from kids. That just won't happen in the US. They need to realize that and come up with a new solution. The best one, as always, is education. Educate parents about the games and the ratings. Hell, criticize the ratings and offer your own point of view to parents. Don't look to the government to save you. That's not the principle your country was founded on.

Also, both Danisett and Yee seem make some pretty specious arguments. Dennis pointed out the problem with Brownback's bill (though no one countered his assertion that the 30 minute tape is *clearly* flawed), but no one really answered Yee's "if they do it, why oppose the law" argument. Lot's of things are a good idea. That doesn't mean they require legislation. There's no "brush your teeth" law, for example. But since people do brush their teeth, why not just make it a law anyway? Because over-regulation and micro-managing are stupid, futile, wastes of time and money. Is the sign in the right place? Is it visible enough? Is it the right size? The right colour? Did you brush for three continuous minutes?

I should point out, for clarity, that I'm Canadian and not personally opposed to the idea of giving ratings the force of law and holding retailers responsible for selling to minors (as happens here in Ontario with movies and games). I do think legislating signage is stupid. However, your courts have already decided that there is really no way for the US to give ratings the force of law. I accept that. It's sad that some Americans can't.