I'm not too plussed about this, as a gay gamer. In FFXI, which I play, same sex marriages are not allowed, so if two male avatars want to get married, they gather their friends together, go to their favorite area in game, and have one of their friends carry on the proceedings. In many ways, I like this more than the official weddings, as it allows you to make it more personal and fun. Also, it gives you a chance, once you're done, for the two Grooms to dismember a Dragon, which is the absolute best part of any Wedding Ceremony.

I remember back in my day, we never got married in games (Unless it was an RPG and she wouldn't take NO for an answer five hundred times over).

the thing is this whole debate is pointless

online games have never to my knowledge had a programed marriage system in them, however, that never stopped people before, and just because this game has no gay marriage system will not stop it from occurring

wow. oh noes! two gay people want to get married in a virtual world. who the fuck cares and does it really matter to some people? personally i could care less if some dudes, real world or not, want to get hitched and have a night of cheap wine, sodomy and george michael music. if it doesnt hurt anyone then whatever.

If Turbine was really that afraid of controversy, then they did the right thing. The could have just removed the ability for the same sexes to marry, but instead they removed the whole marriage system. That seems to me like the rational thing to do to skirt the whole issue.

The funny thing about FF11 is that a character of the asexual race could marry a female character (and only a female character). And a character of the small, childlike race could marry a character of the muscular, 7' tall race. But two male characters or two female characters couldn't get married.

It made no sense and was the subject of much hilarity and frustration.

The whole "in-game" marriage seemed a bit quirky to me.

Players will still find ways to "exchange vows", it just won't be officially sanctioned for any kind of couple. This makes it free for both straight and gay couples to do whatever they want to...

Way back in the days of MUDs, the one I was on didn't have "official" marriage services, so players who got "married" would wear this ring that was really hard to get, but wasn't that powerful. Everyone who played knew what it meant if you checked someone's eq out, and they were wearing that particular ring.

Couple things on my mind.

I'm worried that SOME gay gamers, not all, but those few who just want to flaunt their sexuality and say "this is me, everybody, and I don't care what you think" on top of their soapbox, are going to start shooting in opinions saying that it's discrimination and all that crap. Yeah, it could be, but besides the point, I'm afraid there's going to be a huge fuss over this like there was in regards to the GBLT slitstorm on WoW. If I had to put my two cents on the matter, I'd say, yeah, let 'em get married, but have them pay for it, like a real marriage, for a seperate area for them and invitees and certain things, rather than a public setting where trouble could start with homophobes or griefers poking fun and stuff. And this isn't just for gay couples, but for straight couples, etc.. They wouldn't say no to gay/straight/polygamic marriages if people had to pay for the ceremony. =D

Marriage in an online isn't new, we all know that. They had a contest on Phantasy Star Online in Japan, where there winning couple got officially married in-game with their relatives watching on characters. Tis weird, I hear. But even so, the world's coming around to the point where nobody's going to care who is married to who. This is another reason they should be able to have fake ceremonies in-game- because people aren't going to care enough about getting hitched, as much as they're going to care about reaching the next level or attaining the best weapon available.

Back to the first thing- yeah, the entire concept of marriage in-game was pulled, so as not to seem as it as pulled simply because of issues concerning homosexuality and eveything. But knowing that this was a particular issue is going to be the only thing running through the minds of those few gay people who WANT to throw a hissy fit because their gay dwarf can't get hitched with a Rohirrim horseman. I'm not saying every gay gamer is going to through on a pink tunic and parade past Bag-End typing up the lyrics of "It's Raining Men", because most gay gamers are just going to go "fine, whatever, let's just run this orc through already," but I can't help but worry that something at LEAST sizeable is going to come of this.

hmmm. I played star wars galaxies and you could get married to anyone. male or female. how come this didn't get any attention when it came out (now its a POS game, thanks sony). I guess maybe because they called it unity instead of marriage, which goes back to when liea and han got married and back to when mara and luke got married... i dunno. i don't see what the big deal is. but if they want to avoid a possible flame war I guess it's their game to do what they wish with.

Kajex Says:
April 30th, 2007 at 11:14 am
I’m worried that SOME gay gamers, not all, but those few who just want to flaunt their sexuality and say “this is me, everybody, and I don’t care what you think” on top of their soapbox, are going to start shooting in opinions saying that it’s discrimination and all that crap.

Purposely excluding it only for "gay" characters sure sounds like discrimination to me.

Honestly, I don't think games should get involved in this at all, although if you're going to bother coding marriage at all, it should allow any two characters to get married; restricting it seems like an unnecessarily complication to the process. (I liked Molyneaux's comment that gay marriage in Fable was just a coincidence they couldn't be bothered taking out.)

"Did two male hobbits ever hook up in the shire and have little hobbit civil unions? No. "

Obviously he's never seen the movie trilogy. ;)

How big of an impact do in-game marriages have on gameplay anyway? Most MMO players I know don't bother with them at all.

Er... Just to mention. They didn't disallow it it JUST for gay gamers.
They removed the option completely, for everyone.
Fair's fair. No one gets it.

honestly, i can see both arugments. having that kind of freedom in an mmo is pretty cool, but if it wasn't part of the source material then it shouldn't be inculded.

i'd like to see that in a seperate ip mmo, though. it's a pretty interesting idea.

@Kajex

"I’m just against the “Gay Pride” movement where they flaunt their sexuality for acceptance when all it really does is alienate those they’re trying to appease."

Not really. They ARE trying to alienate those opposed to them. It's just like celebrating Civil Rights openly. It's designed to rub it in the face of those who oppose CR.

It's the same reason you don't see "white pride" parades. Whites weren't oppressed for hundreds of years, so they don't really have any "elimination of segregation" of their own to celebrate.

While some people are just growing tired of the whole thing, I find the majority of people I've met who were against the who Gay Pride idea were equally offended by the idea of "coming out of the closet", ie those who were disgusted just at the fact that these people were announcing they were gay, as if that somehow ruined any chance of "normalcy" in theses people's lives. As if somehow shielding themselves from knowing, that it made their lives easier, because they wouldn't have to face up to their being uncomfortable with the whole concept.

It will only end, when "gayness" is considered so normal that the celebrations seems pointless. But as long as there are still people who react to gays as if they'd just encountered a diseased/tainted person, then Gay Pride parades will still exist.

See: Jesus Camps where you "pray the gay out"... THAT's why Gay Pride parades won't go away anytime soon...

@Kajex
Anyoen who can be arrested or lynched for being who they are deserves to run it in the faces of the opposition.
Actually, they deserve the same rights as everyone else.

In this, I think turbine is going the right way.
You have a problem with someone getting something? Fine, You don't get it either.
That's about as fair as it gets.

They havn't so much banned it as removed any official code for it, making it 'not their problem'

Let me change my question then, slightly. I understand how marriage would work in Fallout 2. Aside from you, it's all scripted NPCs, so knowing that A is married to B is relevant to which script NPC C should use to talk to you. That makes sense.

What's the point of having code to support marriage in a game where almost everyone is a PC? Will the game world stop other people from flirting with my wife? Does it allow for more relationship options? Does that mean you can't have an "affair"?

I suppose my initial question is less about how one bans marriage and more about how one supports it within the rules of a game.

@ Scoops

"I have to ask, as someone who has never played any MMORPG but a decent share of pen and paper RPGs in my youth, how does one go about banning marriage?"

They don't ban marriages. They just don't make it some built-in feature. You won't get some GM_FatherPastorMinister presiding over the ceremony (Everquest featured marrages with GM's presiding over them long ago). There won't be some extensive cut-scene (FFXI).

It is likely that you will still have the means to role-play it out with the proper props. Even World of Warcraft, which doesn't support marriages, you could still craft dresses and tux and buy rings and flowers so those that wanted to do it still could. You just won't have any support of the developers in the process beyond this. You won't get banned or anything for doing this sort of role-play event either.

This is probably not the place to ask, but i was unable to find a better place.

Who writes these articles and maintains this site? I'd like to cite this website as a source for a research project i am doing in school. I must be able to cite this source if i want to use it.

While I think it was a bad decision on Turbine's part, I have to disagree with Brenda Brathwaite's statement that the game designer abdicates authorship, as well. The reason games are powerful is because they open up new possibilities with authorship, not shut out authorship altogether. Molding experiences is an important to a meaningful game. That said, is it true to Tolkien's spirit to disallow gay marriages? Perhaps, but by accepting the license and deciding to stay true to that ideal, Turbine has essentially endorsed it and endorses it through their game logic, which is something I know they don't want to do. They needed to have simply stood up and said "look, sometimes what's canon is less important than what's right," and if they'd done that, I don't think anyone would have really had a problem with it except people who don't like gays to start with.

@Vlad

"That’s not quite what he said. He was talking about -current- discrimination, not historical discrimination."

That doesn't make a difference, but just for you:

Everyone except a white male should have the right to rub their problems in someone else's face, regardless if it is the face of the person causing the problems?

Still rings in as discrimination to me. Saying someone has the right to do something because of their race or gender, while a person of another race or gender does not have that same right hits too close to home.

I believe that in a Fantasy MMORPG, the door should be open to anything. I myself am straight, but don't like the idea of removing something because it doesn't seem right. The irony of this is that an orc can split someone open and people are okay with it, but as soon as a few black sheep want one added optional feature that doesn't affect the rest of the world it is wrong. That in itself is hypocracy. I also believe that religious veiws should be place in games but not disrupt it. For example if my World of Warcraft warlock couldn't summon demons because someone at Blizzard found this wrong and disurbing, they just entirely ruined the fun of my character. I have no problem with religion or political views, it is just that people need to realize that if it isn't harming anybody, then you shouldn't try to oppose it. Stopping them from having gay fantasy characters won't stop them from being gay.

Huh, that's actually a good reason for the choice. I don't play MMORPGs simply because the presence of other people tends to ruin the suspension of disbelief. This, regardless of the feathers it will ruffle, is a step towards creating a proper world. (Just to be clear, in other RPGs, I could care less about the issue. But they're right - here, it would feel un-Tolkeinesque.)

Game developers working under a trademarked theme are subject to all sorts of restrictions that are required by the copyright authorization contract that allows them to use the work of the author.
Developers work long hours, sometimes for years to create a product that is built for a target audience in their business model.
It's just a game and a product folks, so if you don't like what they sell, buy something else, or get together and make your own game/mod.

IMHO turning a videogame's gameplay into a platform to promote one's personal political views is just as wrong in this instance as it was for several people who immediately blamed games for a recent tragedy and were proven wrong.

This is a game people and maybe they want kids to buy it and play it and have fun and not be bothered by the obsessive hangups of adults.

If you don't like the rules in checkers, try chess.
OMG the players are black and white; what have I started now?
;p

"It does so make a difference, and here’s my justification: The argument is that groups who are being discriminated against should have the right to protest against that discrimination for as long as said discrimination persists. You think that that is wrong because it gives one group a right over another group. Does it make sense for a group that is not being discriminated against to have a right to fight against the discrimination against it? No, because there is no discrimination there, so the right doesn’t exist.

It’s not about color or sex, it’s about the presence of discrimination. "

But that wasn't the difference I was talking about. I said it doesn't make a difference whether the discrimination was historical or current.

I still firmly stand that one group should not have a right over another group. Maybe that's just because I was raised with no hostility towards any specific group with regard to colour, beliefs, sex and so forth. I was raised with hostility towards EVERYONE! =D (I.E. "I'm not a racist, I hate everyone!")

I understand your point, I'm just trying to make mine clearer for you. If Gay Rights activists have the right to parade around me telling just how gay they really are, then I, a white female, should have the right to parade around a college protesting against the quota telling them just how unfair it is that a C-B student got into the college over me, a straight A student (just an example, I'm not a straight-A student) because they had a different ethnicity. But I don't have that right, because I'm white.

See where I'm going?

@Yoshiko:

Ah, yes.... affirmative action and whatnot. I see what you're getting at.

Well, I guess one could argue that discrimination against homosexuals is more widespread, whereas affirmative action is more specific (i.e., in relation only to employment and enrollment).

But then again, I don't really think it's even in the same vein as discrimination against a certain group based on color, sexuality, etc. Affirmative action doesn't discriminate -against- you for being white... it discriminates (if that's the right word) -in favor of- someone else for their ethnicity. I dunno -- Affirmative action was always a tricky topic for me and I never bothered to put much thought into it. lol =/

While homosexualtiy is not mentioned in any on Tolkien's works, (Although Aragorn kissed Boromir's brow after his death, and Sam did the same to Frodo thinking he was dead. But that sort of thing wasn't uncommon in classical times. Even today, it's traditional for royalty to greet people by kissing their cheeks.) I wonder if the studio would allow Incestual relationships. They play a promenant role in the Narn i Chîn Húrin as related in The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, the Lays of Beleriand and most reciently The Children of Húrin.

Why Christopher Tolkien found it nessessary to release yet another version of his father's story, I don't know.

What makes me laugh is the whole 'It can only happen if it happened in the book'.

Considering that by the Lord of the Rings there were only a couple of hundred elves left in Middle Earth, as the rest had travelled West, that Gandalf and the other mages returned also to the West with the Elves, does that mean that they have limited the number of elves and disallowed magic use?

Of course not, so it's hippocrisy, Turbine are making a game, not trying to enforce Tolkeins own personal views on other people. That game is, from a marketting perspective, supposed to make money and appeal to as many players as possible, if they aren't doing that, hiding behind a 50 year old moral ghost is not an acceptable response.

As mention by ZippyDSMlee, the Silmarillion contains elves killing elves, Turambar sleeping with his sister etc.

In regards to what Tim Cain said (I'm sorry to say this because the Fallout community loves him) but he had no part in there being a gay marriage in the game. He was long since gone by the time Modoc was being fully implemented. In fact, it wasn't even in the initial design for the marriage sequence. The idea was something that started as a funny conversation between the designer of the area Jason Suinn and myself (I scripted the area) had while having a late night cigarette. Yeah, Tim Cain is in many ways one of the three fathers of Fallout but here I just want to give credit where credit is deserved. There were a lot of really amazing people that made those two games great that didn't leave Black Isle to form Troika.

let alone the issue about gay marriage i'm still tryin to work out why anyone wants to get married in a game.... maybe even at all.

yoyo

Anyone know what trigger the latent effect of These ???

Thanks in advance
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