"What we hear from parents a lot is, ‘I finally took a look at Grand Theft Auto, and boy was I surprised.” What that says to me, and it’s scary, is that parents just don’t know what’s in the game"


Gee ya think!*Begin sarcasm* Hmmmmm What a shocker right there After all I mean it sure must be hard for parents to look at a game called GRAND THEFT AUTO and not register that it might not be a good game for little billy.....*end sarcasm*

Ignorant retarded morons with no commen sense or brains

I sent an email to LaRouche asking him to explain his "Reps" use of incorrect information. Can't wait to see if I get a response.

@ nightwng2000

"So it’s not hard for even those in the know to not be completely certain about what was and what wasn’t original in SA."

Based on the comments above, it looks like you are right. Even within this blog's comments, there is uncertainty.

And it looks like Rockstar should have just admitted from the beginning what was in the actual code and what was added to the code. Like John, I don't see this footage actually warranting an AO rating, since if the footage was shown in a movie rather than a game, it would not have warranted an NC-17 or X. The article linked to by Scoops also makes this point:

"The ESRB didn’t help matters when they caved in to pressure and pulled Grand Theft Auto’s original Mature rating and replaced it with Adults Only. The correct answer, though not necessarily the politically viable one, was to respond that upon evaluation the content in GTA is not substantially different than what would be expected in a R-rated film, and that the Mature rating stands."

I went to the CSM site. What worries me the most is not the dubious review methods (RE4 get 0 stars out of 5 and is still called an "outstanding game"?) but the lack of reviews whatsoever. After a couple of searches, I saw that they only have one Metal Gear Solid review and none Virtua Fighter review, despite both of them being high profile franchises. Best Buy just made a big mistake.

Ummm... This was the first I had seen the actual footage of the "Hot Coffee".

You see no penis, no vagina, just nasty tits and a bum. Seriously, if that were in a movie, it would have been rated pg-13 alone, or R in the context of the game.

@Zerodash

"... controlled by either the government or Christian Evangelists."

Which as far as Republicans go, seem to be one and the same these days.

The real crux of the concern lies in the aftermath of the disbanding of the ESRB in favor of ratings controlled by either the government or Christian Evangelists.

For fun, I went to the CSM site and read a few reviews. The Official reviews aren't half bad. Not great, but they don't say the games are made by Satan or anything asinine like that.

The real problem is the member reviews. Some of the "Kids" reviews could really undermine our arguments. Half the time, I wondered if the kid really was a kid or if an anti-game bigot was posting this to make us look bad. Then again, others read so well, I pondered if an adult had actually written it, or at least helped.

The Adult reviews do tend to be more sparse. And I was surprised that some of them wrote well of M rated games, even if they did warn against letting kids play them. Others acted like they had no idea violence was possible at all. Check out of few of the adult comments on Kingdom Hearts 2. I didn't know if I should laugh at the stupidity or cry for humanity.

Here's a link directly to the comments:
http://www.commonsensemedia.org/game-reviews/Kingdom-Hearts-2.html?show=...

All in all, Best Buy using CSM reviews is a mixed bag. While it does allow parents to more easily research the games for their kids (something we've been preaching forever), it needs a more unbiased source. Why couldn't Best Buy just create a division to do this for themselves? Or provide links to multiple sources?

Better than letting the Parents Television Council or one of the Massacre Chasers reviews games though. Can't you just see it?

Tredell,
It's already been pointed out about Hot Coffe, however, here is another link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_coffee

Under the heading "Minigame overview and Hot Coffee mod":

" However, the Hot Coffee modification replaces this with a minigame which allows the player to actually enter the girlfriend's bedroom and control Carl's actions during sex. None of the six possible sex scenes involve any nudity, and there are animation problems with the girlfriends' partially-clothed textures and bedrooms, suggesting the minigame was abandoned at a relatively early stage."

And then, on additional modification:
"Third-party additions were later incorporated in the Hot Coffee modification which replace the girlfriend's clothes with modder-created, flesh-toned bitmaps. These additions, like most nude patches, can only be applied to the PC version of the game, and do not incorporate visible genitalia."

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

I just read the reviews of Kingdom Hearts 2 and boy are they funny. The review, a_rayment, hada problem with just about everything Disney in the game. Most of the violence that he had a problem with were straight out of the Disney movies the scenes were based off of.

I am glad that this person is not an actual employee of the CSM.

As for this matter, Best Buy is most likely trying to save face. They do not want to look like the bad guy next time someone wants to attack ratings inforcement. I do see more retailers following suit, which would be unfortunate. If the CSM gets more support like this, it could have a negetive effect on the ESRB.

@nightwng2000: I got my facts wrong? D'oh. That's facepalm material, for sure...

I thought the "official" minigames did have partial nudity.

Nekojin,
Not a big problem. There have been varying opinions about what was original and what was 3rd party.

Not to mention that "nude patches" vary from game to game as well.

So it's not hard for even those in the know to not be completely certain about what was and what wasn't original in SA.

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

What we hear from parents a lot is, ‘I finally took a look at Grand Theft Auto, and boy was I surprised.” What that says to me, and it’s scary, is that parents just don’t know what’s in the game.

It's a game named for a crime. Please tell me what the heck these parents expected.

This move by Best Buy undermines the ESRB and gives politicians and interest groups major ammunition in attempting to convince the public that legislation is needed. I'm surprised no one one on this board so far has reacted to this by refusing to purchase games or game-related items from Best Buy. Yes it sounds stupid and it probably wouldn't have any effect since solidarity in the gamer world would be tough to achieve, but gamers should consider a boycott of Best Buy. The real effect of this move by Best Buy could ultimately go way beyond just restricting minors from buying M-rated games. I know alot of things need to fall in place for this to happen, but given the current social-conservative movement, combined with socially liberal groups' historical disdain for violence, I think we could see real censorship and banning of games. It's happened in other Western countries, like Australia and Germany, why couldn't it happen here? Eventually just citing the 1st amendment might not be enough.

@Scoops
"And personally, I’d like to see PTC ratings. It would help clue up people on how screwed up they are. Or at least give nut-job parents one less leg to stand on."

I'm glad that the Parent's Television Council is not involved at this point. The PTC is the main interest group that prompted the whole FCC crackdown after the Janet Jackson Super Bowl thing that culminated in FCC fines being increased tenfold. It accounts for something like 98% of all FCC complaints. It has shown that it has actual power, especially when Republicans are running things. The PTC is probably pretty envious of Common Sense right now, teeming with jealousy that it didn't get this plum gig. Then again, for all I know the PTC might be working on a deal with Wal-Mart right now, which actually now that I think about it wouldn't surprise me at all.

@Robespierre

"I thought I’d throw some facts out there about Hot Coffee. For one the animations found in the game, contained no nudity at all."

Hot Coffee may not be as explicit as some people claimed or implied, but naked butts and exposed female breasts do count as nudity as the term is generally used. The Hot Coffee footage is available below.

http://www.gametrailers.com/gamepage.php?id=1949

If you are claiming the footage above contains user-generated nudity, well, I don't believe it, at least not without a source, link, or something else to back up your claim.

Regulating the ESRB is still time for the "Unconstitutional" stamp, just a different amendment (due process)

I agree that using CSM ratings could undermine confidence in the ESRB, but there's another problem I forsee as well. CSM is entirely consumer-based, and as a consequence, ratings for games don't come out until days or weeks after the game is released, instead of before release as the ESRB does. If Best Buy is going to use their ratings, it makes me wonder if they plan to keep the games off the shelves until they're rated (which, judging by CSM's website, may not even happen).

Y'know, I'm not sure how this undermines the ESRB. On the surface, it may look that way, but stop and ponder. The CSM age ratings are almost always the same as the ESRB's. To me that says that the ESRB is doing as good a job as anyone else. I'd hope parents would look and see that the ratings are usually the same and draw that conclusion.

Many of you would do well to go back and read the earlier post on this too. A lot of stuff about CSM reviewers, ratings and content was discussed there. Most important to note is that the CSM site seems to have had a change in editorial position a while ago. Prior to that, both the reviews and ratings were heavily biased. Since then, it seems to have become a fairly decent site. If anything, I find that their reviews are overwhelmingly positive, regardless of what age rating they give a game. This applies only to the official reviews. Most of the member reviews are trash (most, not all). As I said in the earlier discussion, read the Vice City review (pre-change) and the Vice City Stories review (post-change).

And yes, it's a subjective rating. All ratings are. All reviews are. As I said in the other discussion, what I find useful about the CSM site is the listing of facts. I may disagree with CSM's choice in rating, but I am more informed than I am with the ESRB rating. If I have no problem with my 16 year-old seeing casual nudity, I can take that into account with the CSM rating before buying a game. I can't with the ESRB mini-box.

and @Iredell:
According to this site, nudity was a v2 addition to the user generated hack that opened up Hot Coffee. This article also makes reference to their being no nudity without additional modification.

I can't see how this is a threat to the ESRB. Bestbuy is paying for these services out of their own pocket. As far as I know the ESA is tied to the ESRB, so it doesn't really matter if retailers such as Bestbuy want to endorse another rating system because it's privately endorsed. Personally I think this "On" and "Off" rating sounds like s***, but whatever.

Another thing is that the ESRB is apparently still suffering a backlash from Hot Coffee. I thought I'd throw some facts out there about Hot Coffee. For one the animations found in the game, contained no nudity at all. The characters would be having, because of the no nudity thing, "dry sex." If there was any nudity during all of this, it was because of user created content. Another thing is the rating that GTA: SA already had at the time when Hot Coffee was exposed. It was a MA-17+ rating, after Hot Coffee it became a AO-18+ rating. That's really not much of a difference at all. The box was already labeled with Strong Sexual Content, before the AO transformation. Not to mention, Blood and Gore, Intense Violence, Strong Language, Use of Drugs.

I find it hard to believe that the parents who bought GTA: SA (Hot Coffee version) for their underaged kids would endorse everything else in the game, excluding Hot Coffee's dry humping. Irresponsiblity is the word on my lips.

I was at best buy this weekend and picked up Splinter Cell for the 360 along with Pans Labyrinth. When I went to pay the clerk asked for my ID. It tickled me a bit but there was no hesitation as my wallet was already open. After handing over my drivers license I had to pause for a moment and wonder if I was being carded for the R rated movie I was buying or the M rated game. "Is this for the game or the movie?" I asked the young clerk, "the game." she said..

"Huh. Interesting" was all I could reply.

Its likely that all ESRB ratings need is time. the G,PG,...R ratings on movies we all know and accept have been around for some time. Long enough so that people know that an R rated movie isn't suitable for a young child. We have to give the ESRB a long enough chance so that people will get used to the ratting system and know that an M game is as bad as an R movie.

Putting 2 seperate ratings on there makes a lot of confusion. So instead of easily learning 1 rating, now they have to figure out the other.

And dating back to Hot Coffee, I think most of the Industry is trying to learn from that mistake. They don't want to take a huge hit like that. It's a business after all.

I just remember when was visiting my Girlfriends relatives just after christmas a year ago, and I saw her 9-11 year old nephew playing GTA:SA. I said something to her aunt you bought the game and she was clueless, "but he says all the kids are playing this game", refusing to look into it So I sat there with him and played the game for about 15min with the volume turned up until the aunt came storming in because of the bad language she was hearing. "Well I never knew", BS lady its on the box.

I haven't bought anything from Best Buy in a long while. This will prolong that habit. Even if they had a beef with the way ESRB rated things, this just undermines any sort of coherency out there involving rating games. It'll probably just lead to frustrated parents not caring as much what new grand theft auto toy their 12 year old wants for Christmas. Again, I'm not buying from any store with common sense media ratings shenanigans.

I'm kinda scared to the idea of the ESRB being replaced.....

Alot of effort falls on the parents shoulders to do their job...

Sence alot of people don't seem to get that...

What if ESRB DID get replaced one day?...What kind of things might the new organazation try to attempt to get the message across?..They can do the same shit as ESRB......but rate most games higher or AO.....yet....it's still the parents responsibalities.....and that new ratings group might then fall still.

I dunno....


I just wish parents did their job...a little research can go a loooong way.

‘I finally took a look at Grand Theft Auto, and boy was I surprised.”

The game is called GRAND THEFT AUTO, what did you think it was about? Candy mountain and the Pufferpoos?

The state has no right to regulate things that should be dealt with by parents.

Yeah when a game has a giant M on it, with some text underneath that says 17 and up, with some further text that says drug use, violence, sexuality etc. And further the game itself named after a federal crime that can result in multiple years of improsonment, you more or less gave up your right to be the least bit suprised that its content may include drug use, violence, sexuality, and I dunno GRAND THEFT AUTO.

What's with the "On" and "Off" bullshit? By simplifying ratings as such, you're making gross oversimplifications of entire generations. Some kids mature faster than others. When I was 13 I was perfectly mature playing games I wouldn't trust in the hands of 33 year olds.

Does it really matter if it's ESRB, CSM or MyMommasRatings.com who rates these games anyway unless it's some morality crusader organization?

Neither ESRB or CSM rates games thoroughly, although from a quick glance CSM's ratings appear to be much more subjective than ESRB's.

Neither organization would've caught Hot Coffee, so I fail to see how this move by Best Buy is to address Hot Coffee. It's just a PR move so that Best Buy can say "We are doing something, look at us". Pandering to their clients...nothing more, noting less.

Common Sense Media. Yeah, right.

“What we hear from parents a lot is, ‘I finally took a look at Grand Theft Auto, and boy was I surprised.” What that says to me, and it’s scary, is that parents just don’t know what’s in the game”

What that says to me, is we need to question whether we should let these people breed (sarcasm).

No, what it really says, is that these so-called parents don't give a lick about their own children. It says they'd rather let an object they don't know anything about baby-sit their kids than actually ask a question about it. It says they are ignorant. Ignorance is not an excuse. It's an explanation.

@ E. Zachary Knight

Heh. Yea those were my thoughts when I read a_rayment's comments. If he objected to the content in the game, it makes you wonder if he objected to the same content in the movies. If he did, he's way too sensitive to "violence" (at least what he perceives as violence). If he didn't, he's a hypocrite.

I'm going to take another side on this one. I actually worked with CSM on one project. They aren't too bad. They just take a different approach and a very "parent" centric view to their ratings system. The ESRB basically just puts a general description of what may be found in the game on the box regardless of who may be looking at the descriptors.

But mainly, I think this is very much the ESA/ESRB's fault. They have allowed the general public and politicians berate their (albeit excellent) ratings system into the ground and no body trusts it anymore, even though they should. They made no effort to defend itself against attacks other than "it's the best system we have". Most people, especially parents, don't listen to statistics. They listen to how they FEEL about it. And because of things like Hot Coffee and the public perception that nothing has really been done about it, people FEEL distrustful of the ESRB Ratings.

Of course, this really only applies to a small vocal group of people, but unfortunately, those are the people that are heard by corporations like Best Buy.

On the question of what Hot Coffee content is in the original code and what was added, here is what Patrick "Hot Coffee" Wildenborg said,

"All the contents of this mod was already available on the original disks. Therefor the scriptcode, the models, the animations and the dialogs by the original voice-actors were all created by RockStar. The only thing I had to do to enable the mini-games was toggling a single bit in the main.scm file. (Of course it was not easy to find the correct bit). The Nude models that are used as a bonus in the Quick action version of the mod, were also already present on the original disk."

So unless there is some reason to doubt what he says, the nudity (regardless of whether it should be considered MA or AO or whatever) is in the original code.

Here's the site: http://patrickw.gtagames.nl/

How come
1. the ESRB dose not stand up for itself?
2. Why is it called Common Sense Media if it involes no Common Sense?

Wow. It's amazing that Best Buy would use a source like this that doesn't even have ratings for every game. Especially not popular games. I couldn't find Castlevania on the DS at all.

I also couldn't find any Naruto games at all. I know they may not be the best games, but there have been quite a few and they have all been out for a while. Hell, if you look up the info on the television show on CSM, they even refer to the games.

One other problem I've just noticed about the site: no screen shots. At least the professional reviews are pretty honest. While I could understand them being weary of showing M rated material, you can't tell me they couldn't find at least one "nice" screen shot for every game or movie

"So unless there is some reason to doubt what he says, the nudity (regardless of whether it should be considered MA or AO or whatever) is in the original code."

They were there but files had to be switched around in order for the nude girlfriend models to be displayed; hence Hot Coffee v2.

"Let’s face it - if Best Buy was confident in the industry’s own ratings board, would it take the time and trouble to break ranks in such a fashion?" I don't think that Best Buy as a company has confidence in any ratings. I don't think they care. BB is taking the same route that the politicians are, they're putting on a warm smile to the public eye and telling us how much they care, supporting a "better" rating system. It's all about tricking the public into thinking that BB is watching out for them, meanwhile it's all about the mentality of getting people to come into the store and buy lots of stuff with that warm fuzzy feeling they have.

This deal with parents not understanding the ratings system is all about their inability to properly parent. Is the 'R' rating on movies any more obvious? No, not at all. It's a learned meaning from seeing 'R' means 'Restricted' means 'Not appropriate for children under 17.' When these parents were their kids' age, they were trying to sneak into and rent R rated movies. Now, their kids are trying to sneak M rated games into their consoles. Some of these kids are simply able to play off of their parents' ignorance and lack of caring for what their kids are doing. These people who are saying they looked at what the game is and were appalled and shocked are just trying to save face, no one's going to say "I don't care what he plays." People need to just take responsibility for the their actions and do their jobs as parents.

This whole topic is such a dead horse that's been beaten into nothing and it's very telling of how sad things are these days. There is nothing wrong with the ESRB ratings, only the people who buy the games without considering the ratings. Having another ratings system come into play is just going to cause even more confusion and solve no problems. I just can't wait until this whole thing comes back and people start yelling about how the CSM ratings don't work and we need legislation so parents don't have to do their jobs.

A Common Sense Media ratings system? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! Have you seen their ratings? "On, Off, and Pause". How could anyone make these ratings any more VAGUE?! THAT'S A POWER SWITCH FUSED WITH A VCR, NOT A RATINGS SYSTEM! COMMON SENSE is the only thing the parents should have while they let the ESRB spell it out for them instead of wasting the time and energy to interpret what these "Common Sense" idiots are trying to encrypt into code for them.

The only thing that this CSM seems to get right is the importance of Media Literacy, which I believe is a subject in need of further study and should be taught in schools at a middle school level (maybe earlier). However, the only thing that their site offers on "Media Literacy 101" is a $20 kit so parents can learn about it. Wait a minute... WHAT?! You're trying to get the word out, so you decide to rip off the interested parents rather than just posting the kit on your site! And I don't even want to hear them argue that they need the money to continue to fund the organization. Because if you don't have the COMMON SENSE to go around to various school districts with bake sales to raise the money and even teach the families of the schools about Media Literacy at the same time, then they shouldn't be allowed to call themselves the COMMON SENSE Media organization.

Other than that, Best Buy seems to just want to use these MEANINGLESS ratings to try to confuse parents to the point that they just won't care anymore and buy their kids whatever they want to shut them up and make them happy. Think about it, the kids are screaming and yelling for their games (the ONLY games that will make them happy) and a poor, innocent parent who genuienly cares enough about their kids to check the ratings to begin with, is now trying to understand a set of symbols and verbless ambiguity that they already know (Common Sense). Way to go CSM, in fact, why don't you just tire the parents out mentally before the screaming kids can have a crack at them!

One last point: The ESRB is so much more helpful to parents and won't cost you a DIME!. NO ONE has earned the priveledge to say that the ESRB botched the whole "Hot Coffee" scandal. HOW WERE THEY SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO FIND IT!? YOU HAD TO DOWNLOAD A MOD IN ORDER TO USE IT! You had to download extra code (NOT ON THE DISC!) that would enable the Hot Coffee feature. And when this "scandal" occurred there was only ONE thing that should have happened and it is this: 1.) The government should have backed the ESRB (which is something they SHOULD have started doing a long time ago) and gone into RockStar games. 2.) They would find the programmer(s) responsible for hiding the feature away on that disc without the complete code. 3). And immediately trhow the guilty party or parties in jail for fraud and a mess of other charges all while slapping RockStar with a hefty fine for allowing it to happen. The ESRB is there to keep games with inappropriate content out of the hands of overly-impressionable young children. That is how it has been since they started. When RockStar allowed this to happen in GTA San Andreas, they took advantage of not only the ESRB, but the rest of the gaming community.

@Nekojin

You are somewhat correct in what you say, except that when the content was discovered, Rockstar lied and said that all the hot coffee content was put into the game via a third party mod - instead of the truth which was that the content was already there, just unlocked by third party mod. Misrepresentation is the main issue here. It's what people assume that the ESRB are trying to do all the time now (even though it's only happened twice).

If it were a PC game I think that people could hide behind the EULA (which says something about tampering with the game).

One thing about the whole Hot Coffee debacle that the general public doesn't understand is that it cannot be accessed via normal play. It's not like you can put the disc in, enter a code, and get the content. You have to own some sort of cheat device like a game shark in order to do it. People literally have to HACK the game to get to Hot Coffee. Something I think the ESRB/Rockstar and everyone else really dropped the ball on making clear to the public.

(continued) The reason I make the assumption that it was a mistake and not a deliberate attempt to deceive is simple: There's an old axiom that I tend to follow in cases like this. "Never attribute to evil intent anything that can be adequately explained as incompetence."

when i worked at my local Kmart i made a point to tell the parents, "hey this game is rated "M" and thats not a go thing for your 11 year old" many parents were all like "i never knew that rating was there".... and then the young boy gives me a dirty look... on kid even gave me the middle finger behind his mom.... another gave me that finger slashing his throat.... kids didn't like me..

yup thank u asshole parents..... Now get back to work..... no no.. i mean watching your kids.

The ESRB might want to put the "descriptors" on the front of the box, right next to the rating letter. In a majority of retailers, the game cases are in a glass case, requiring you to find an employee to open it for you. If the parents are too ignorant to figure out the rating system, then maybe seeing "Violent and Sexual Content" on the front of the box will show them the light.

I’d prefer reading in my native language, because my knowledge of your languange is no so well. But it was interesting! Look for some my links: