Is a church a public space?
As reported by the Manchester Evening News, leaders of the Church of England don't think so, at least not as far as violent video game depictions are concerned.
CoE officials are up in arms over the depiction of Manchester Cathedral as a setting for battles in Resistance: Fall of Man, a best-selling PS3 launch title. Said the Bishop of Manchester, the Right Reverend Nigel McCulloch:
It is well known that Manchester has a gun crime problem. For a global manufacturer to re-create one of our great Cathedrals with photo-realistic quality and then encourage people to have guns battles in the building is beyond belief and highly irresponsible.
Here in Manchester we do all we can to support communities through our parish clergy, we know the reality of gun crime and the devastating effects it can have on the lives - it is not a trivial matter.
Patsy McKie, who lost a 17-year-old son to Manchester gun violence told the BBC:
I believe it's something that needs to be taken seriously first by the Church but also by parents. We're actually fighting for the minds of our children. There's a war going on - not just in Iraq, but right here on our doorstep - for the minds of our children.
A Sony spokesman said:
It is game-created footage, it is not video or photography. It is entertainment, like Doctor Who or any other science fiction. It is not based on reality at all. Throughout the whole process we have sought permission where necessary.
A company press release added:
Sony Computer Entertainment Europe is aware of the concerns expressed by the Bishop of Manchester and the cathedral authorities... and we naturally take the concerns very seriously.
Church officials want an apology and the removal of Resistance from store shelves. Otherwise, they've threatened legal action. The BBC has a video report.
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Comments
I can't count the number of times churches have appeared in violent movies, but glancing at my small DVD collection reveals Kill Bill and Silent Hill just for starters. Is the act of using religious grounds for violent scenes supposed to juxtapose the ideas of peace and war for artistic benefit? As well as allowing for cool destruction of very nice architecture, of course.
Just wait until they hear about Hellgate London.
How faithful (no pun intended) is the recreation of Manchester Cathedral in the game? Making it very realistic and encouraging gun battles inside is pushing the envelope of bad taste, but art isn't about playing safe. Besides, we've seen violent scenes recreated in movies around countless real-world monuments and buildings, but there aren't a great many games that do the same thing. We're used to playing around "inspired" versions but not really faithful recreations of real places.
Stop buying children violent games please, thanks.
I'd love to see the headlines for something like that though:
"Resistance quashed by church officials"
"Courts rule Church can takes game off the shelf"
But seriously.. Apart from the teneous 'link' between real gun crime and using god knows what kind of videogame weapons to blast aliens into their constituent atoms, isn't this a bit late?
The game was released 3 months ago in Europe, more than 6 months ago in the US and Japan. Banning the game wouldn't do any good, as it's already out there. Also.. how would they really have created a photo-realistic cathedral without knowledge or even help from the church officials? It's not that blueprints are that easy to aquire, unless they snuck in some measuring crews after mass, or something.
Is it really a true recreation of the place, or just a more generic church like rendered enviroment that got the name of the Manchester Cathedral. (judging by the reactions I'd think it was the first.. but it wouldn't be my first wrong assumption) Anyone sure on that?
if you found out before it before us forum trolls(me and Grahamr) found it thats fine.
as for the topic at hand movies generally need permission to film at locations if not hey can wing it and build your own even if they found public documents regarding the blue prints I have a feelign its public domain as much as building your own.
Still, I think the CoE is over-reacting. 99% of the people who'll ever play the game won't be aware that the building in the game is a recreation of a real one - hell, most players probably wouldn't even consider that the devs went to the trouble.
I can't see what legal rights the Church would have over the building's image, though. I assume they'd have to grant permission for filming inside the premises, but over a virtual reconstruction of the place? It looks like shaky ground to me, but then who knows what way a court would decide?
The breathless reporting in TFA is entertaining though. ^_^
I'd play that game.
Would they prefer that instead of virtually fighting a fictional threat in the cathedral, they instead allow people to really shoot it up for no reason?
Because if there is a gun problem in the area, and the focus is being turned away from it to a fictional occurance, then that's pretty much what's being said.
Without taking jabs at anyone's faith, I'd have to say that the Church of England are pretty ignorant.
From what I can gather, Playstation 3s cannot turn into an assault rifles.
I mean, heaven forbid that players actually see a real place and maybe learn something about famous landmarks. Nope, it's just fictional castles and fields for you!
So either the Church of England wants to get their name in the paper to cash in on the current 'blame video game' fad, or they're really bad at the game and they just made it to the cathedral level after almost 7 months of playing
Oh lord, comparing a mere video game to the Iraq war is shameless, utterly shameless.
I couldn't help but wonder why they aren't standing up to the real thugs and criminals wo are selling and sing guns on the streets in the first place.
I still remember when the church in america tried to regulate movie content.
Just a message from a liberal/libertarian Christian that who says we should focus on Christ's positives teachings and messages of love, peace and equality rather then focusing on damnation and trying to ban and attack things we may find offensive.
Don't like it? Don't play it. Go back to worshipping your genocidal God of Murder, Hate, and Contradictions. Apparently it's okay to worship a being who has killed over 5 billion humans, plans to do more, and permits the eternal torture of people... But... oh my gosh, permit a violent video game!! Run!!!
I hate the superstitious and backward days we live in.
I wouldn't like it if someone took a copy of my home or place of business without me knowing and put it into a video game.
Game developers have the right to make any material they want. But don't be surprised when someone complains about something in poor taste. Video games have the same free speech as other expressions but that doesn't mean everyone has to like what you say. And ignorant people will use the material to castrate the whole gaming community. I don't support censorship of games but sometimes it seems we practically give the anti-game lobbies the ammunition they need. Sometimes it seems things are thrown into games purely to up the shock value. That's fine to put it in there but we need to be able to say that putting it in there is worth the backlash. There are so many wonderful non-violent video games out there that get overshadowed by the GTAs and the Manhunts of the world, and it is a shame because thanks to the anti-game lobby, fueled by these examples, the general public now has a poor opinion of games in general. The church may be out of touch with society, but so are we if we don't realize that adding tasteless material for the sake of mere shock is enabling the critics to bash ALL video games.
No, there is Not.
The very fact that you choose to blind yourself from the truth - that videogames have the exactly same mind altering effects on any healthy youth as books, cartoon comics, rock and roll, elvis presley, radio, electricity, ballet AND televisions have - just blatantly shows your complete disregard for the children YOU so claim to fight for, and instead reveals just how much You want a simple ScapeGoat to BLAME for your own loss...
Which would be nothing as their is no proof that violent media (any of it) has any mind-altering effects on children whatsoever.
how is having the battle set inside a church automatically tastless? Up to that point (and probably throughout the entire game) you do not kill humans, instead you kill aliens bent on infecting and invading the entire world. You're not killing priests or ministers or churchgoers but instead aliens. The whole town has moslty been evacuated, killed, or quarantined off at that point anyway, so what difference does it make? I also believe (correct me if The church level is not tasteless in fact it may have meaning. In that single level you are swarmed by so many enemies it's almost rediculous.
Also these types of people make me sick, where the heck do these people spawn from anyway?
Having it in a church is automatically tasteless because in religious contexts, churches are sacred spaces. To bring killing into them automatically profanes them. This is a tenet that goes back hundreds of years. The church isn't going to make a distinction between killing people and killing aliens- they probably can't grasp the concept. They don't care if the level is about saving the church by killing the aliens as they invade the church. The simple truth for them is that to show a profane act in a sacred space is sacriligious and this game does that in their eyes.
To simply call the church stupid for feeling that way means not even trying to take into account their viewpoint- whether we agree with it or not. As gamers, if our reflexive response is just to dismiss the viewpoint of everyone who doesn't agree with us, then we have shut down dialogue with the rest of society, and run the risk of being as intolerant and narrow-minded as Jack Thompson. And we will lose opportunities to have a true dialogue with the rest of society and to show non-gamers that we aren't a bunch of homocidal freaks. I'm not saying I agree with their stance or that anyone else should, but I can see where they are coming from even if I dsagree with them.
Is the Iraq War the new Godwin's Law?
There is no image copyright on a floorplan.
Next you'll be telling me I have to pay the city where I live if I want to make a sketch of scenery.
Utterly ridiculous.
Wait a second. Doesn't England have some of the more stricter gun control laws? When did this happen.
I always thought that gun crime in England was rare. As I once heard Robin Williams say, "In England if you commit a crime, the police don't have a gun and you don't have a gun. So if you commit a crime it's, 'Stop! Or I'll say stop again!"
Still, I agree with everyone else. The game's been out for several months and only now do they get up in arms about it? Yes, it really does make them look very out of touch. And trying to get the game banned or pulled now would do no good now as it's practically a fait accompli.
And yet, every other movie/game that have had churches in them, many WW2 games and movies (Saving Private Ryan), were completely and utterly fine, because of why? Oh, right... It's a VIOLENT VIDEJOGAME MACHINE!
Bullshit, that's what it is. Hypocrisy, THAT is what it is.
And if this is fighting FOR the minds of the children, to Save Them from the oh so demonized media, to save them from the outside world that's apparently so bad it must be purged from the minds of everyone who's not a sick pervert..
To shelter them to the point where the youths will inevitably have to move out into a world that's been hidden from their eyes, a world they will have no chance to prepare for, or even understand, because of the overzealous beliefs of 'protection' that these loons have...
Then I'd rather be Lost.
Oh....wait.....
No matter how many people are offended about something, the Streisand Effect will come about and bite the offended in the ass. South Park is a perfect examlpe.
EDIT BUTTON!
i think they consider all FPS or action games to be "Killing simulators" becuase of some of the things Mr. Thompson and other anti-game activists.
Taking this in mind, i can see why they would be offended by this.
They need to take a step back and actually take a look at the game, that it is not some "Killing simulator" and that it probably has so effect whatsoever on gun crime in Manchester.
I find it hilarious that they are trying to ban Resistance in the first place, it seems rather tame to me compared with some other games out there. It seems to be just another generic shooter with cartoon, alien violence just like Halo. Its hardly discustingly violent like Manhunt or other such titles.
Anti-Videogame activists just need to take a step back and smell the roses and actually think about what they are saying. That woman who lost her child has just found a scapegoat and wants to exploit it to ease her loss. Her son was probably shot in some gangland related shooting or something. I doubt the shooter was a Resistance player or such.
I would love to hold a debate with an Anti-videogame activist, Jack Thompson or otherwise as i'd love to hear their views and give them my own opinion on them. They may have some valid points, but what it mostly boils down to is their ability not to accept that videogames are NOT plainly marketed for children, that Manhunt and other such violent games are made and marketed for adults. It is the responability of the retailers and parents to ensure these games do NOT fall into childrens hands. I for one deny my brother access to all my games with a rating of teen or higher.
The solution that these activists are looking for does not lie with the videogames, but the people responsible for the access to these videogames.
Most gun crime in England I would imagine is related to drugs and gangs (or both). How often will a drug lord or drug addict pay almost 500 pounds sterling for a PS3 and copy of the game? If you are a drug addict, your money will only go on drugs, not very expensive hardware/software. If you are a drug lord/dealer, you probably have the money to buy and play the game, but you got it via crime and drug dealing, meaning that trying to blame the game for your violence is like blaming wet ground for the rain that happened earlier.
Like has been said already, many films have depicted gun battles and violence in churches. Once again, video are singled out as different somehow. I believe that the Church of England has looked at all of the existing fuss and lies in the media about video games and their (non-existent) link to violence. Then they have seen how parents react. Then they have thought to themselves, "Hmm, Sony probably have some pretty deep pockets!"
This is blatant opportunism, using a silly issue like this to try and drum up support and/or money for their church, in a time when the church is less and less relevant in people's lives.
Got ya covered