[...] Manhunt 2 isn’t in as dire a situation in the US as it is in the UK, but it’s close. The ESRB has labeled Rockstar’s controversial game with an AO “Adults Only” rating. If the game ships with this rating, most retailers will refuse to carry it, cutting sales massively. The only other console game to have an AO rating in stores? Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, which was re-rated following the Hot Coffee scandal, and quickly re-released in an edited form. [...]

Well, that shut us up ...

And the internet is hencforth set ablaze ....

Raise your Wiimotes high brothers, and strike down the insolent fools!

Uh oh, here comes the shitstorm...

Before the whining gets too bad, I'd like to point out that WE haven't played it, so we can bitch about ideals all we like... until we've played the game and know WHY it was rated AO our opinion is no more valid than the pixel-antis who want to abolish it.

Flame on!

Jbourrie is right. THough I had no intention of playing anyway

Does anyone stop and consider that, just maybe, Manhunt 2 might deserve an AO rating? In any case none of us have seen actual footage of how grotesque the game is. The ESRB has, and it's not been too far off the mark in the past. While it's unusual for a non-porn to get the AO it's not without precedent and I can't say I'm overly surprised.
As has been mentioned, this doesn't definitely mean the final game will be rated AO. They can make edits if they want to.
And honestly, I'm not sure if I want to see TT fight this too much. The audience that wants to get the game will have avenues of getting it. Being rated AO might even score it bonus points in certain circles - 'it's so shocking EBStop won't carry it!' And if TT fights to have the rating brought down, it puts them in a very dangerous position in which watchdogs might accuse them of wanting to make the game easier to sell to minors.

I think we all need to take a step back here.

None of can honestly say that we didn't see this one coming. When the original Manhunt came out even mose game reviewers said that its level of violence was just too much. If the sequal is even more bloody than the first how could the ESRB retain credibility and not give it an AO rating? I'll grant that this is supposition on my part but we need to look at the big picture. The game is not, I repeat not being censored. The government isn't saying that the game can't be sold. While some may be irritated that they have to order the game online now, retail stores have the right to choose what they will and will not sell.

Keep in mind too that Rock Star will likely appeal the rating. Though to be fair I'm more than a little agreived that they decided to make Manhunt 2 in the first place. Mainly because its just more bad press for the gaming community.

The ESRB isn't even credible to begin with. Most of them aren't even qualified or educated on the product they are rating. Its obvious because I'm sure if Manhunt 2 was a movie it would be rated R.

I have no problem with AO ratings being assigned to ultraviolent games, what I have a problem with is the defacto censorship this enforces because sales are concentrated so heavily in stores which refuse to sell AO products. That forces a constant upward pressure on what is acceptable in M-Rated games, increasing the violence over time, and creates a defacto censorship of any sexual material since no company in their right mind can release an AO product.

Too much power resides in the arbitrary decisions of CEOs at Wal-Mart and the like, and not enough in the hands of the people, the people the ESRB are supposed to be providing a service to.

I can't believe this... absolutely shocking...

My only question is what separates an M game from an AO game? one year right? I'm curious as to what magically happens in that one year that makes the difference.

I would probably like the MPAA's ratings for video games more than the ESRB's

Oh the ESRB doesn't play the game they simply reveiw a collection of its content, so much of what they are rating is forced to be taken out of context. So anyone who argues that we havn't played it yet doesn't have much of an arguement because the only people who have are the testers at Rockstar.

No, some games are very similar to movies. Games are just interactive where movies are not.

Yea somethings I do take a while but I don't simply half ass it and call it a day, thats pretty much what they are doing.

How is giving it an AO rating "censorship"? It just means that minors can't buy it.

@Tom

I got to ask how would you suggest they play a game that is 100+ hours?

or a game that has no ending?

When Jack Thompson uses his argument against GTA that players can run around killing hookers and EMT's, he fails to point out that its the players option to do those things. RockStar isn't holding a gun to peoples heads that forcing them to make those decisions, how do you even rate a game based on what someone MIGHT do?

@Terrible Tom

There was a time when the MPAA was a new invention, and it took them a while before they found what was and was not "acceptable". Back when the MPAA was dealing with the "new media" of film, they originally gave The Wild Bunch an X rating for violence, and rated today it would be a tame R. A Clockwork Orange was rated similarly.

Now look at the ESRB, a fledgeling organization and dealing with the "new media" of cutting-edge interactivity. You can't expect everybody to be experts at such a new craft. There are all new challenges when rating interactive content, and the level of interaction (such as motion control) is a challenge nobody has ever had to consider before.

Are you saying that you're more of an expert than they are? What makes you more qualified than they are to rate Manhunt 2? Or is your answer just "I haven't played it, but it should be M rated"?


Are you seriously suggesting that somehow the MPAA is more qualified to rate GAMES? They rate movies, that's what they do, that's what they're good at. They are no more well versed in interactivity than you are, and like it or not the more "realistic" interactivity is likely the reason for this AO rating.

I get the feeling you have an inaccurate vision of the ESRB and "the real world" in your head. Maybe you're young and naive, maybe you're just the type of person who has to "fight the power!", I don't know. But this isn't just a black and white issue. Game ratings are subjective, certainly, but somebody has to make that decision... and like it or not the ESRB are the most qualified people we have for the job.

This is blasphemy! This is madness! No group, Independent or Government (de facto) bans speech.

More badnews for rockstar again.

It most likely deserves the age rating (and at least youll still be able to get it!) but its bad news in the way that most stores wont sell it.

"It means that major retailers like Wal-mart, which by itself accounts for about 25% of retail games sales, will not carry Manhunt 2."

Meh, fuck walmart. People should be TRYING to stop walmart from carrying thier games/movies/music/whatever, just so that the people who want to buy said product will finally start giving their money to a better retailer. You don't see any Nine Inch Nails music in walmart, and it certainly isn't hurting Trent Reznor's pocketbook. So like I said, fuck walmart.

Has it occurred to anyone that this is Rockstar we're talking about?

This company sucks. They have YET to release a good game, seriously. I've tested each one and they all suck harder than the last. They just want money at this point. God forbid they should lose money on a game that's already available on other platforms and sold in said retail outlets.

The Wiimote, whether you think so or not, is definitely a worthy factor to consider when rating this game. The system has a much broader target audience than the Playshit 3 and the Xbox 3sucky. An audience that ranges into a very young demographic. For an example, see the new Mario Party commercial where a bunch of 12 year old girls are having a slumber party bouncing on their beds playing the game. That's not to say those same girls would have ANY desire to play Manhunt, but that's far outside the point. The point here is, there is a different level of interaction and a much broader audience to consider.

The ESRB was facing serious pressures, the game got banned in the UK, it'll probably be banned in Australia, what do you want them to do? They have the parents to answer to, not Jack Thompson, not Rockstar, their actual clients, the parents.

So sorry that this is something that offends you guys, believe me I'm on the side of justice, but I'm going to have to side with the ESRB on this one. Perhaps instead of just instantaneously getting mad that you won't be able to get the damn game in a store, you should take an objective look at the matter and realize that this is a bit bigger than some Jack Thompson hullabaloo or whatever you may see it as.

"GameStop is probably giddy right now, because they’re going to get all of Wal-Marts customers"

Newsflash: Gamestop refuses to carry AO titles too.

"Newsflash: Gamestop refuses to carry AO titles too."

Source?

A local gamestop was carrying the re-rated AO San Andreas, you just had to ask for it at the counter. They may have been breaking company policy, of course, but I have my doubts that they wouldn't take full advantage of the situation to get the extra customers.

Uhh, there's a sex scene. I'm sure that has something to do with the AO rating, not just the violence. Everybody is making it out like the violence is the only thing taken into account. When I see animated sex, complete with full on nudity and pelvic thrusts, then yes, I would say that deserves an AO rating.

Yup, I've refused to jump to conclusions about this game because I haven't seen it, but from what I've heard, it sounds like an AO game, so I don't really have a problem with it, my concern is the BBFC and their banning of it, that's something I'm planning to take up with them though.

The cup half empty people will bemoan the decision as corporate censorship.

The cup half full people will quickly realize there's a supply and demand hole here and think of ways to exploit it.

If I was Rockstar Games, instead of bitching about this, I'd start looking for alternative avenues to sell the game right about now. I'm pretty sure the game wasn't about to set the sales charts on fire anyway, but if Rockstar Games makes some smart decisions within the next few weeks, they could easily salvage any lost sales from Walmart and other corporate hypocrites.

There's nothing more powerful than marketing a game with "they done tried ban this mfing game, but the man failed. Here's where you can buy it." Then sell it $5 less than the competing game. Add retailer incentives for selling the game, and you'll have independent retailers flogging to the game. I'd freakin' sell it, if I had the capital to warehouse a few thousand copies. Have a steady stream of add-on / dlc content (for free) and keep on selling.

@unclecaveman

"Uhh, there’s a sex scene. I’m sure that has something to do with the AO rating, not just the violence. Everybody is making it out like the violence is the only thing taken into account. When I see animated sex, complete with full on nudity and pelvic thrusts, then yes, I would say that deserves an AO rating. "

Do you have a source for that? I've only seen nudity in the "concept art"...

Or were you talking about the "Hot Coffee"?

[...] Well, it’s official. What do you think of the decision? Link [...]

@Tom

The ESRB has been doing this for years now, it's not a new organization. And if anything, they are pro-game industry, being that they are funded by the ESA. If Manhunt 2 doesn't deserve an AO rating, which we all admit we have no idea if it does or not, then what does? At some point there is a game that deserves AO, or otherwise we might as well toss out the rating if we are never going to use it.

@nobody in particular

This is not censorship. The game can still be published and sold. ESRB has no responsibility to the sale of the game. You could blame Sam Walton's legacy for refusing to sell AO games, but nobody blames them for not selling porn. It is each retailer's choice to sell the products they see fit to sell. They could decide to never sell another Take Two game, regardless of rating, and you can't say a word about it.

So maybe when you go to 7-Eleven or Circle-K, you ask for Manhunt 2 along with your copy of Playboy from behind the counter, as opposed to going to a mainstream retailer.

@Ryan

Perhaps, but from a legal standpoint there is a difference. 18 is generally considered to be legally "of age". Under 18 is still a minor by the law, granted that it doesn't always make sense but that's the way it is.

I'll say this again as well. No one is censoring the game. Stores have the right to refuse to sell a product based on its content or place of origin. No one is saying that the can't be published or that it can't be sold. I'll trust that the ESRB has given it the correct rating and see what happens. However its more than a little disengenuous for TT to be complaining about the rating. After all because of their own undisclosed content the ESRB got set back five years or more and had to stand up to ridged scrutiny.

[...] UPDATE: That didn’t take long. Hold firm, ESRB, hold firm. [...]

"How long till JT decalares victory?"

What, he hasn't already?

Give him 12 hours. Maybe 8.

I've no problem with the AO rating, we can't really say 'Kids don't play Adult Games' and then complain at an Adult Rating. The problem is, the Anti-Game crowd use what is called a 'ratchet' mechanism for introducing censorship, they screamed for an AO and the game ended up AO (In fact, it was AO BEFORE they screamed, but that won't matter to them). You can be certain that the next time round, they'll be screaming for outright banning, it's a ratchet, once you can lock yourself at one level, you start aiming for the next one.

It'll be interesting to see how things develop in the next few months.

Sorry, just thought this required clarification. The Ryan who posted regarding the change between 17 and 18 year olds and the Ryan who posted "My analysis of the situation" are two different people. I am the second one. Sorry for the confusion but I just thought I should clear it up. I didn't see the first post, it was likely posted while I was writing mine. I'll go by Ryan T. if anybody wishes to adress my post.

Wow. This story commentd up fast. The game probably deserves the AO. The big question issue is not just retail. Target, Best Buy and Wal-Mart won't carry AO and they account for a substantial percentage of game sales. THere's also the platform consideration. Will Sony and Nintendo allow AO content on their systems? Historically, they haven't.

This is just a theory, but with all this attention this game is going to sell out incredibly fast, and then the major retailers are going to suddenly decide to stock it.

Personally i hadent planned on picking it up, but after all the mud that has been slung about it and its banning in Britain or atleast refusal to be rated it seems more like an exercise in my rights than just some video game, and that makes it worth getting.

@Kirk

@Kirk

That’s a reasonable point, I was perhaps overly general with my initial analysis. But, I still think that it will largely be an “if you build it, they will come” type of scenario. Anybody who wants Manhunt 2, and who was willing to pay 50 some odd dollars on the game to begin with, will probably be willing to find where it is sold.
I also think you are missing the big picture. In the past, it’s been difficult to find AO games, this is true, but I somehow doubt the fact that this game is somewhat large in profile than any other Adults Only game ever released will be lost on a lot of retailers. Rest assured, it will probably be easier to find than you think it will.

Here is some Manhunt 2 footage. Not that violent as far as Manhunt.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AHO529esQ5U

Can anyone verify if Nintendo is going to allow it to still be published to the Wii?

This'll be a cult hit now. Obscurity and controversy makes b-rated chop schlock horror movies into cult classics with a following.

HA HA HA HA too funny. Serves em right. You can be a good game with violence or you can be a game that uses it's over the top gonzo brand of violence to "beg" for "im"mature people to buy it. Manhunt and Manhunt 2 are both the later type of game.

I'm no prissy when it comes to violence but it can go too far and as far as video games go we all know that most parents are partly RETARDED and do stuff like buy their 13 year olds San Andreas because little timmy really really wants it bad. This is the ESRB doing what it was designed to do, keep filth from childrens eyes and ears.

To prove my point, anyone under the age of 18 comment here if you played San Andreas or Manhunt.

Good point Ryan T. I didn't think profile. Plus since Gamestop has already taken orders (c'mon does anyone think that Gamestop will give back money!?!?) That can be a good logic to a larger release if the game stays AO(doubtful).

I've got my money on the game being brought down a notch by R* to get a M rating.

This is the only thing I've ever agreed with Jack Thompson on(Other than Rap) I think the game isnt a good idea period.

@Ryan
The difference is that 18 is the "age of majority."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Majority

I'll paraphrase for you: until you're 18, whether you like it or not, your parents still have both legal control over you and a legal responsibility for you. So unless you're legally emancipated like Macauley Culkin (who at this point is way past the age of majority), your parents legally control your access to this ultraviolent media.

Not that I see why it matters to you, since you're over 18...

@IMRavnos

Well, I'm never one to favour Censorship, mainly because it suggests that people are too stupid to decide for themselves, if a game is awful, it won't sell...unless it's been censored.

But, I do, however, agree with you that the whole 'slash and stab' genre of game is getting far too long in the tooth now, the only reason it has perpetuated beyond the sensible 'fade' point is because of the attentions of censors, and the extra profit that such attention brings. I'd like to see a shift in the market back toward more cereberal games, it's a position I've often stated, certainly, Eastern Europe is starting to produce Space Trading and Empire Building games of exceptional quality, whereas the American Market seems to be relying entirely on Spore as it's 'original' game.

So, I don't agree with this censorship, but, personally, I'd prefer they'd just leave the entire Genre alone so that it can fade a bit and make room for other styles of game.

As I said in the last news post: (reworded for current info)

I'm glad it’s AO, I hope Nintendo OKs it, and I hope this ends the final debate of "we need to protect our children". Fuck off… it’s AO. If you’re too stupid to know what MATURE means, maybe an ADULT ONLY rating will get these stupid politicians to abandon the age old "must protect the childrens" ploy. I hope rockstar stands their ground and doesn't appeal the AO.

Remember, a retailer has no requirement to follow precedent though, their decision to not have the power of law, so if Walmart decided to stock Manhunt 2 and yet not to stock other AO rated games, there's nothing really that anyone can do about it, you could try crying discrimination, but because Walmart pay for what they stock, it is their own property, and therefore their decision what to buy and sell, at least, that's the way it works in the UK, otherwise you'd not be able to move in Tescos for all the different brand names.

I'm not saying that means Walmart will or won't consider stocking it, I don't have the faintest idea on how the operate and there are no Walmarts in the UK, but just pointing out that if they wanted to, they could.

"there are no Walmarts in the UK"

Wow. There's a place on Earth that isn't covered by that parasite?

*DOUBLE NEWS FLASH*

Sony and Nintendo do not allow AO games to be published. Retailer policies are irrelevant in this case.

I assure you, your time is better spent on Pac-Man:CE anyway. That should be AO because it IS crack.

lol

Well, They just guarenteed i buy this game now ;o)

Yes we have Wal Mart in the UK, its called ASDA

@evilrockstu
Just because retailers choose to sell Manhunt2 does not at all mean they have to allow any other AO rated games. The retailers have the full right to choose exactly what they want to sell and who they sell it to. If they want to make an exception for Manhunt2 but refuse all other games, that is their right. Publishers and gamers can whine all they want about it being unfair, the power is in the hand of the retailers. Unlike laws, retailers can make adjustments and exceptions to their company policies all they want.

Ya'know i'm actually wondering if atleast a few retailers may make an exception for Manhunt2... i mean, the whole reason i think they have that no AO rated games policy is because AO rated games usually have sexual content that goes beyond what those retailers are willing to carry. Manhunt2 however, if it doesn't have sexual content any worse than any other M rated game, would get it's rating based off of it's violence. So i would wonder if atleast a few retialers would take that into consideration in determining if they would be willing to carry it, or if they are solidly against AO ratings no matter what the reason... we really don't have any past to go off since any game that would have recieved an AO rating for violence was edited and resubmited for an M rating.

@JBourrie
Well, Gamestop could still choose to honor the preorders, but once those are out of the way and they get rid of any remaining intial stock of the game they have, the stores could just cancel any resupply of the game... honor the preorders and THEN stoping selling it.

@Ryan
It's true that those who want the game will find a way to get it, but the problem for publishers is that a majority of games sales are more like impulse buys or customers who only halfheartedly want the game. Those kind of poeple may not be willing to go looking for a game that they can not find in their local Wal-mart... I recall asking why wal-mart of all retailers made up the most sales and i believe the responce someone gave me was because many of the games sold are bought by poeple who just say the game and bought it on impulse or poeple who are just to lazy to look anywhere else to buy a game.

@Dexee
@n8n8baby

I don't recall any cases of Sony or nintendo forbidding AO content on their systems, though that could be because many games that would get an AO rating are edited and resubmited to be knocked down to M rating... not to mention the only current AO games out there are the sexual ones; though GTA wasn't exactly banned from the PS2 after it was rerated to AO, whihc means atleast Sony is willing to make exceptions... and also that this game is probably AO for violence not sex, which could make a difference. However, i kind of doubt Nintendo would refuse the game at this late stage in the game. Nintendo is often seen as being a rather kid friendly company, an image which tends to push away many M rated developers which in turn, turns away the older audience. As it is, the Wii will only be getting a handfull of M rated games, unlike the other consoles which get many. This is why Nintendo went to rockstar in the first place, to attract more developers and get rid of "the nintendo is only for kids" image... Stopping Manhunt2's release (especially only a few weeks before release) may seriously damage their chances of attracting more developers. Honestly, if i was a developer(especially a really good one who could make a lot of money on any console), i would be rather turned off by that kind of news.

I mean, video games cost millions to make... the last thing you would want to happen would be to complete the game only to have it turned away from the console because the game is too violent... Sure, Nintendo does have a few M rated games on it and they might say that they would only do it for AO rated games, but with their current track record, that's not the message that the publishers and developers are gonna see... their just gonna see "nintendo is a kiddie company that doesn't like violent games"... they'll just say screw it and go make games for Sony and microsoft

We won't really know until the game is out how justified this rating is. My first instinct is that, frankly, it's a tough call, and the ESRB is right to err on the side of caution. If the Wii version's controls do in fact involve pantomiming the events onscreen, then the AO is, without a doubt, a good idea - it's creepy to even think about, let alone play. But even on the other versions, it's still possibly the most graphically violent game ever made. The ESRB would be crazy to not consider an AO rating initially, and I'm sure they used their best judgement in deciding between the M and the AO. Take Two is going to appeal, I'm sure, but I doubt they're going to be successful.

Say what you will, but obviously if im against censorship or pseudo-censorship im obviously not a pro-thompson guy(moron).

How can you rate a game that you havn't played. I'm not saying you need to play through the entire thing but I fail to see how want to rate a game and only reveiw a movie displaying its content that isn't even reflecting anything besides parts that people might find offensive.

And even that isn't my main beef with it. The fact their entire rating system is flawed and they are just average joes that think they can do a good job rating a video game.

I'm slowly loosing faith in the game industry's ability to stand up for artistic expression. I personally havn't seen any results even worth mentioning, I feel like my money would have served me better if I would have given it to Ron Paul. At least he keeps busy and tries to get things done.

Rockstar is awesome, not many companies would have the courage to even try to release such a game. People need to be pushing the envelope and I just wish someone was there supporting them and also trying to fix the way games are rated. Sure my ideas arn't the best but I can't honestly say the way it works now is any better.

Not only does the game industry have to worry about politicians and anti-game activist there is also pseudocensorship in the process of assigning ratings(which seems to be our own fault) and of course lets not forget the fact they seem to be afraid to do anything about it because they fear its going to make it worse. Fear is for the cowardly and the weak. I'll fight alone if I must.

ok, so this really f***in sucks balls, but those of us who want to play we can still get it, hopefully gamestop, and eb will carry this, they know it will sell, and theres rockstars website, too, it is not the end, but hey I thought it should have been M, but we don't get to decide upon that, and if eb and gamestop does'nt carry i feel sorry for those who pre ordered if there was a pre order.

Definitely didn't see this one coming... Most games have some sort of story that give the violence a reason. If the plot of Manhunt 2 is anything similar to the first game, than the entire game is based around killing for the sheer gruesome entertainment value. There are absolutely no redeeming features to Manhunt. With the ESRB definition of the AO rating, can anyone really be surprised?

I think GamerDad has an excellent point. Also, knucklehead politicians who still believe that video games are only for children are still not getting the message-maybe Manhunt 2 will make them realize their short sighted thinking. An AO rating should not be the "kiss of death"-it's time to deal with this issue.

Walmart be damned.

Why are we attacking the ESRB, the same agency we told the non-gaming public to look at for "credible ratings" when the legislation in Illinois and the other states were put out not to long ago? Didn't we argue that playing through the entire game is not only impossible in some cases but even ridiculous? Even if the ESRB don't employ "trained, professional" gamers...is that really necessary to rate a game called "MANHUNT"? What type of degree do you want the raters? And are we not just a little bit bias towards this whole deal?

It got an AO rating and frankly, like some other people viewing this site, I think that Manhunt 2 does deserve that rating. There's nothing wrong with having to order this game online, the worst being that you now have to pay shipping instead of the gas you would use to drive to Wal-Mart.

While us gamers as a collective will always stand by the fact that JT is wrong in his beliefs that "games can brainwash us to be killers", Rockstars move to create such a game is only putting gas on the fire. If you actually have to use the Wiimote/Nunchuck in the same way you would use it to choke someone in real life, then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it would eventually be targeted as being distasteful and downright wrong.

The case that critics use to discredit the "double standard" between movies and games is the interactivity. Movies are passive, you sit down and just open your eyes and ears, something pop's up, you react instinctively. Video games are active, you have to be active to the conditions presented to the gamer. You have to constantly think, plan your next move and press the buttons or in this case wave your hands. The movement of the game is to a degree controlled completely by the gamer. Movies are more or less moving pictures.

While we as gamers are able to tell the difference between the fictional events we play out on our consoles/PC. We have to understand and remember that even though fictional, they can still be distasteful and not accepted by everyone.

ABOUT TIME! I finally have restored faith in the ESRB!

@Terrible Tom

The least you can do is complaign to the right poeple. Your primary concern seems to be the psudeo cencorship, then the ones you should be attacking are the retailers, not the ESRB. The ESRB is just doing their job, if the game is violent enough to warrent an AO rating, then it must get an AO rating. The ESRB is not going to give a game a lower rating just so it can be sold, that would be going agianst their policies... i mean really, you complaign that the ESRB is no good but than expect them to give a lower rating just so the game will be sold? being bad goes both ways, you can judge both too harshly or too lienently... survey's have shown that most poeple agree with the ratings as they are, while some think they are too harsh and others think they are too lenient. The ESRb aren't the ones who told retailers not to carry those games, that was all the retailers doing. Like i said, if the retailers were carrying those games you probably wouldn't be complaigning right now.

As for playing the game when rating, how much more can you really learning by playing the game as opposed to just watching footage of it. What about playing the game would actually give you a different impression of the game. The Developers send the ESRB all they need to see; all that playing the game would do is help them confirm what they already thought about the game from the footage... Really, the difference would probably be very minimal at best.

as for those who rate the games, the ESRB was designed to help inform parents, so the ratings that they create must reflect the standards of the average parent. Parents are the ones who actually need to look at the ratings to buy games for their kids, and when they buy a game based on the rating, then they expect to get a game that suites THEIR standard of what that rating means. Using the "average joe" is the best method to match the standards that parents have. Using gamers, especially ones that would play those kind of games, would probably scew the results ending with ratings that are too lenient (violent game players are bound to be more lenient than non-gamers). Parents would loose all faith in the ESRB system if the T rated games they got were constantly more violent and sexual then what they would expect in a game meant for a 14 year old. the ESRB also don't use "soccer moms" or the overly concerned save the children types, cause those in turn would be too harsh. Really, the "average joe" is the most fair and unbiased way to get a true rating that reflects the opinion of those that actually use the ESRB system when they make a purchase.

//My only question is what separates an M game from an AO game? one year right? I’m curious as to what magically happens in that one year that makes the difference. //

I've always thought of that, and never really understood why. I guess it's just that AO generally tends to mean porn which is illegal one way or another to sell to minors, while M rated means something else other than porn (the worst I've seen is T&A) as well as / or alot of violence.

And sorry for the double post, the computer I'm using right now sucks >

Congratulations ESRB, you have done nothing of any worth yet again.
Oh no! A 17 year old can't buy the game! Wait, one of his 18 year old friends can!

I liked the first. Hell, I like all "sneak games" which is essentially what Manhunt was about. I'll buy it, even if it is AO. The ESRB is probably giving the game AO under the fire that it's receiving, but we won't know 'till it comes out.
Ordering from Rock* shouldn't be a problem. It keeps the parents from accidentally, stupidly buying the game for the kids. And if a kid is smart enough to order it online, they are smart enough to order porn, illegal items, AND keep it a secret. Sure, it will hurt that it can't be in stores, but if Rock* can gain some kind of intelligence (even after last year's fiasco) this can be turned into a hit, with the proper advertising. Well, if it doesn't suck.

Give me gratuitous amounts of death or give me...well, um...death. I have nothing against Manhunt 2 being given an AO, it's a amazingly violent game. I mean it has testicular mutilation for Jack Thompson's sake! I think thew AO rating might in fact help sales. Use it as an entire add campaign, "Manhunt 2, the game they don't want you to play!" So, Take 2, I say to you, release Manhunt 2 in all its gory glory with a full AO rating and tell the ESRB "We're not afraid of you!"

Just to point something out. On Kotaku they have a list of all the AO rated video games (23). Most of them are PC. And alot of those are just pron games.

Shariq Ansari, while it may be true that both games and movies are 2 different forms of entertainment. THey both fall under the same catagory of what they show. While games invlove the players to act out the role of the characters, you see those actions. Movies are about the same, though without someone playing them (based within the movie of course). There are some really violent movies out there, and some of them are easily purchased by kids. My brother purchased an R movie when he was only 16. You shouldn't be allowed to do that, yet he did.

I'm still getting this game. I respect that the ESRB doesn't want to take any flack if the game gets a mature rating. I wouldn't either. I played Manhunt 1, and it shouldnt have gotten such a low rating (M i believe, which wasn't enough).

you people are saying this might deserve an AO rating, but head over to newgrounds or a place like that and I guarantee you that there will be stuff much worse than this. I believe that violence alone gets an M, and violence and sex get an AO. Also, the retailers should stock it anyway. they carry unrated movies, so why not this?

First off let me say that if the game is as violent as I have heard then I agree with the AO rating. BUT what I don't agree with is the fact that the AO and NC-17 ratings are the kiss of death to products. These two ratings ARE censorship! It's either change it for a lower rating or suffer as your product is unable to reach mainstream audiences.

I just wonder how long before we see "unrated" videogame releases in the form of digital distribution. Wal-Mart carries "unrated" DVDs only a few months after the censored versions leave theaters. Perhaps when digital distribution is THE way to get video games will the ratings actually do their job of protecting children, and not just damaging video game company’s profits.

@ Evil Zombie

Your theory might hold water, and I even wondered the same thing myself. Take 2's press release stating they intend to appeal the AO rating casts some doubt onto that however. Otherwise, they would have said they were pleased with the rating rather than want to contest it.

If someone wants to buy Manhunt 2, they will get it. I do believe there's this contraption called "The internet"...

I pre ordered 2 Wii copies from Rockstar's warehouse. w00t for Ebay!!!

It's official...Manhunt 2 has been officially banned in the United States.

The ESRB is hardly unbaised.

The ESRB is doing what the MPAA has done with movies viewed as to violent or overly sexual by rating it Adult or NC-17. So what I see happing soon is an underground indi following of games viewed "not normal" or "counter culture". So have hope we can still get the game, all these "letter writters" have done is pulled it off the shelves and made every kid want to play it. I mean every person knows if something is wrong then of course kids want to do it. I bet Jack Douche Bag Thompson is looking at this as the vehicle to destroy free speach and artistic expression. If only parents would stop being so considered what their kids are watching, reading, listing to, and playing and just be responsible loving parents and stop blaming kids "problems" on what they do; try instead looking at how you have been raising your children then you might realize whats really wrong. We live in a society of me,me,me and buy, buy, buy, work, work, work. If parents didn't work so much to pay off that brand new SUV of death and stop putting their kids in day cares, and stop expecting schools, teachers and other parents to take care of their kids then maybe, just maybe we wont have some much violence caused by youths. I thought this was the land of the proud and the free, well every day I feel less proud, and even less free.

You know, after seeing responses across the internet, it makes me wonder..

How many of the people crying foul about the game getting an AO rating, are both mature enough AND old enough to be able to handle playing it?

In general, it feels like the ones complaining the loudest, are the potty mouth preteens who get mocked on youtube for screaming about their chocolate milk, or being told to go to bed because they have school the next day, or the anonymous entitlement halfwits who think everything should be without limit of any sort.

IE, either those too young to buy the game by themselves, or those not mentally stable and emotionally mature enough to understand that life isn't always about what they want. Both of which would be very much NOT the correct audience for a game of this nature.

Actually, we are not the ones crying for the AO rating beleive it or not.

You do realize, that the AO rating effectively kills the sales of this game. The AO rating gives this game porn related status. Therefore, it probably wont be sold at toys r us or walmart etc.

The double standard is when movies like hostel and saw 1,2, and 3 are put into movies when they are 17+ type movies, and not NC 17 etc etc.

[...] 23rd Game Ever to Receive An Adults Only Rating  It seems that the Florida Attorney General's crusade against the Wii version of Manhunt 2 has caught the attention of the ESRB.  Manhunt 2 has become the 23rd game to receive an AO rating. This just in from Take Two Interactive, publisher of the embattled Manhunt 2:The ESRB has issued an initial rating of AO (Adults Only) for Manhunt 2.We believe the process of rating videogames is to help people make informed entertainment choices and not to limit them.Manhunt 2 was created for mature audiences and we strongly believe it should receive an M (Mature) rating, aligning it with similar content created in other forms of media. We are exploring our options with regard to the rating of Manhunt 2. Click here for more on the Manhunt 2 AO rating(GamePolitics.com) Click here for more on the Florida Attorney General vs. Wii Manhunt(Nintendoworldrepot.com) Published Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:45 PM by Dark T Prophecy Filed under: Manhunt 2, ESRB, Take Two [...]

The problem is that the AO rating amounts to corporate censorship. An NC-17 rating in theatres is referred to as a 'box office death sentence', and an AO rating is similar to a video game. It would be different if retailers actually *carried* AO games - it wouldn't matter, but they do so on the basis that they don't want to risk selling porn to a minor as there are *laws* against this.

Since Manhunt 2 is not porn, it's going to suffer unfairly from this rating. Fact of the matter is, no movie would receive an NC-17 rating (which replaced the 'X' rating in the 80s) for violence. It was a rating created specifically for porn, much the same way AO was for games. Giving it this rating when it's not porn pretty much assures that it's going to fall flat on its face. Fact is I can think of no store in my area that will carry it.

I'm not certain of the facts, but I'm pretty sure a fair percentage of films have to be edited after their first rating review, particuarly the more deliberately 'racy' ones.

The difficulty for Rockstar is, especially after Hot Coffee, it's not simply a question of 'cutting out the unwanted bits'. Programming doesn't always work like that, sometimes you cannot remove what isn't wanted without in some way re-structuring large sections of code, kind of like refilming the movie, with the costs involved. Good programming helps, but sometimes those situations are unavoidable.

Does the game deserve an AO rating, difficult to say, I'd certainly support an 18+ rating in the UK, but 18+ in the UK isn't anything like 18+ in the US. I suppose it is the wider aspects of the rating that make it so unfortunate from Rockstars point of view, not the 'value' of it.

Hmmm. After reading or at least skimming all the comments, I'd say that this game deserved an AO rating. Yes, few if any retailers will stock the game. Yes, there have only been a handful of mainstream games rated AO (oddly enough most of the seem to be from Take Two/Rock Star). No, we don't have the full story of what is in this game.

People mention trailers, but I doubt that Take Two would really show everything in the game, especially if its a bad as the ESRB would seem to imply. They also wouldn't want to spoil the surprises of what the game has in store for the player.

People have mentioned Walmart and they stupidity/hypocrisy. (I mean, come on, they sell Beer and cigarettes, but I can't get unedited Korn?) A while back some friends of mine were looking around the movie department and found an oddity. A hentai. Yes, Walmart apparently had accidentally stocked a hentai in the anime section. They bought it and gave it as a joke gift to someone else, if memory serves me right.

@ EvilZombie

It's funny that thought had crossed my mind, too. Did Zelnick take the opportunity to inform Jack of the impending rating? Did he then say, "Not a peep out of you, you worthless human filth!"? We may never know. Kinda surprised considering Hack's track record.

*shrugs* If I was TT/R* I'd release 2 versions 1 the AO and 1 an M rated. That way they can have their cake and eat it to. Along with the rest of us.

I must say there are a ton of comments worth reading, while about 5 are just plain trash, took me about 30 minutes to read all these comments (150 ish).

I agree with GamerDad, there should be a measure taken up to allow for local retailers to provide the game from behind the counter. Although there are such policies, they should still have a place for adults to acquire it. A special requirement or something. The policies must be very old by now, and should acknowledge that many gamers are in their 30s and I'm sure some are in their 40s if not 50s. Some of these individuals should be allowed to purchase it.
I've looked for some online retailers for AO games to see how easy it is, and I couldn't find a physical medium option. Perhaps my searching abilities aren't as great, but I couldn't do so. So, how would it be possible to obtain this game if I wanted it?

As for the "intense" violence and that article stating that there's a sex scene going on in the movie theatre scenario, it seems very likely that either both got it the AO rating, or it was purely the sex scene.
However, judging by past reviews of the original manhunt having gruesome violence I'm pretty sure pushing the bar further would've got this rating.

Someone mentioned earlier that the meeting with Thompson and CEO was likely a discussion about the rating and how it wouldn't be marketed to children; and for thompson to shut up.

@GoodRobotUs
films are edited heavily, there's always editing involved as to which scene to use or what could be "racy" In fact, sometimes one little detail has to be changed for it to be rerated properly. I know of a commentary that just wanted a pubic hair to be shown, but that'd have them lose the R rating, so they nixed the pubic hair. Thus, you're very correct on movies being edited after reviews. For premieres though, I'm pretty certain it is rare they edit them afterwards.


I don't know what the intended audience is, but I would think the ones who played the original and loved it. Now, it has been almost 4 years since the original was released on PS2. Even if they were 14 at the time, they are likely near or will be 18 by the time this game releases. I don't think the rating will affect sales much, but may just excite certain teens to wanting to buy it even more now.

I myself, am intrigued to how violent the game must be in order to obtain an AO rating. I recall reading about Thrill Kill receiving it, but that game never released and screenshots just basically show the possibility of beating your opponents with severed limbs from "previous" opponents.
It either must be extremely horrible with some moments that'd make me turn away (similar to the eye scene in Hostel), or just hurtful from imagining it. The only example would be a scene from Battle Royale the movie, where Niida is stabbed in a certain region by Chigusa.

Anyway, I'm very interested as to how everything will work out, or if the game will be toned down in some aspect. Many of the problems: retailers refusing to stock AO games; Nintendo policies; advertising; etc.
I'm curious as to how everything will unfold.

[...] Jun 20th, 2007 by Pooch There must be some really angry executives at the Take Two Interactive office when Manhunt 2 got banned in Britain. Now the official announcement that Manhunt 2 will receive the "Adult Only" rating from the ESRB must have been a really painful blow. According to Take Two Interactive: The ESRB has issued an initial rating of AO (Adults Only) for Manhunt 2. We believe the process of rating video games is to help people make informed entertainment choices and not to limit them. Manhunt 2 was created for mature audiences and we strongly believe it should receive an M (Mature) rating, aligning it with similar content created in other forms of media. We are exploring our options with regard to the rating of Manhunt 2. For a video game publisher, an AO rating will mean that major retailers (such as Wal-mart, who accounts for 25% of retail game sales) will not carry the title. An appeal process is available for publishers who want to dispute the ratings assigned by the ESRB. (Source: GamePolitics.com) technorati tag: manhunt 2, wii, playstation 2, esrb, take two, take two interactive, rockstar games [...]

The problem with this rating is the double-standard when compared to movies on DVDs. I use to work at a movie rental store, and we openly displayed "Unrated", "Uncut", and "Nonrated" movies all the time. Why are movie DVDs allowed to occupy store shelves when comparable games are not? The politicians won't give you a straight anwser for that.

[...] Kilde: GamePolitics [...]

I've read the first few dozen comments and I must say.

I like how in defense we always refer to the ESRB as a parental tool and how people should use it...yet when something like this happens against the fovor.......now suddenly the ESRB is not creditable?

@illspirit
Thanks for looking up the info. So i guess Sony and PC are the only ones who have no rules against AO rated games. Still, as you mentioned, Sony may have changed it's policy after GTA was rerated, which in turn means is always possible for nintendo to fine tune their policy... such as adding a little exception that states that the only games they will not except are AO games with a great amount of Sexual material... thus Manhunt2 passes by under the new rules.

It will be intersting to hear Nintendo's take on this issue... Will they demand that Manhunt2 be edited and resubmited before being released on the wii, or will they make an exception and allow the game... afterall, they are trying to get rid of their "kiddie" image, and telling Rockstar to spend the money to have the game edited down might make developers think twice before making mature games for the wii; Especially when you consider that it was Nintendo who asked Rockstar to make the game for the wii... really that feels like a real bitch slap to me...

@Doggyspew
Incorrect, Ao being only for porn games is a misconception. While it's true that nearly all of the time they are, the ESRB has shown that a heavy amount of violence can get an AO rating. It happened with atleast two games in the past; Thrill Kill which was never released, and The Punisher, which was than edited down and resubmited to get an M rating. Both games were rated AO for their violence.... So the ESRB is probably being consitent and the game probably is just that violent. And considering you haven't seen the footage that the ESRb has seen, you can not possibly compare it to Resident Evil 4.

To DoggySpew,

"If Manhunt 2 is been given an AO rating, then why didn’t Resident Evil 4 get a AO rating (Considering the decapitations in the game)."

That's because maybe Manhunt 2 is gorier than Resident Evil 4, considering the fact that both are horror games, there could be a possibility that Manhunt 2 has a much stronger horror content than Resident Evil 4, besides, the latter is being made in 2005 while the former is just in development, but I don't understand why these anti-game fools just open their mouths and bark about it.

To DoggySpew,

"That’s the point. If movies get an R rating no matter what level of gore in it, why shouldn’t that apply toward videogames ?"

Then it all comes down to a conclusion that these anti-game people are just mindless freaks, these people only first strike the things that they don't like and that is, games of course. But that doesn't mean that they only attack games though. They may attack movies as soon as they finished their 'job' with games.

meh. I think the AO is rather appropriate.

The wii controls for Manhunt 2 had always bugged me since I read about it on IGN.

Hard to what Rockstar will do now. Kinda far to change the Wii version now. They may end up canceling its release or risk a AO release.

I'm still surprised Nintendo allowed Rockstar to put such a morbid game on its console.

@Keaton2008

As I remember it rumors were going around that Nintendo went after TT and others to put M rated games on the Wii to help remove that "Kiddy" monicor that it has bee stuck with over the past 10 years or so.

Is it also possible this is also fallout from Hot Coffee? That the ESRB looked at the content that Rockstar submitted to them and said "You know what, this is right on the borderline of M and AO. They hid stuff from us the last time; better to look like we're too strict than allowing ourselves to be fooled by Rockstar again".

-P

If a game where the objective is to kill people in as gruesome a manner as possible doesn't deserve an Adults Only rating, what game does?

Why is there even an AO rating in the first place? The MA rating says for 17+ year olds which are considered adults in most states anyway. It seams it would make much more sense to get rid of the AO rating altogether and make the MA rating 18+. I haven't played the game, I don't know how graphic or grotesque it is, but I just saw the movie The Hills Have Eyes 2 recently and that was pretty dame grotesque, and it was on cable. How is this game any different. Walmart and those PC friendly stores don't carry music with Explicit Content, so why do they even carry M rated games in the first place? Then again, why do they sell cigerettes there anyway if you have to be 18 to buy them? In the end it comes down to the purchaser. If someone is buying a product for themselves, they should do their own research. If they're buying it for someone else, regardless of age, they should already know if that product is appropriate for that person.

@Ohma

AO is equivilant to NC-17. M is equivilant to R. Get your facts straight.

E. Zachary Knight-

Not quite, many M rated games wouldn't be rated R, case and point Socom 3. Get your facts strait

[...] Full Article        Related Posts: Manhunt 2 New VideoNintendo Wii feature: Parental controlsEGM Wii Scores And Rumors Participate! Leave your comment. [...]

[...] From Take Two (via GamePolitics): Manhunt 2 was created for mature audiences and we strongly believe it should receive an M (Mature) rating, aligning it with similar content created in other forms of media. We are exploring our options with regard to the rating of Manhunt 2. [...]

So its AO. Big deal. Everyone would agree it's not for kids either way. The distinction between M (17+) and AO (18+) is stupid in and of itself, but hey.. to me it shows the system works. The ESRB's concern should not be whether the rating will hurt sales. Giving it AO shows they didn't bow to pressure from T2.

The ironic part in the whole thing is the rating doesn't mean anything, parents will still buy this game for their 12 year olds without knowing what it is, then act shocked when they see what its like.

Scoops-

I agree with you 100%, Id be happy to have a simple rating system such as that. Its simple and it would work fine. I'm sure it would also discuss(as they do on today's ESRB ratings) what content is in the game such as drug use, violence, sex, ect.

I think Learning Games should having a wide range of ratings so parents could easily distinguish what games they buy. I mean you wouldn't want to buy someone in 1st grade with a 4th grade game right? But I also think that the "average joe" ESRB shouldn't be rating educational games. That should be reserved for people trained to educate children as they a much better idea of which grade that educational game belongs.

But then again you could drop the educational games and have another professionaly trained organization do the ratings for those.

I think ETA would be a great rating system. Easy, fair, and simple.

Well

Let's take advantage of it...

RockStar people... let's modify the game and make it the most bloody, violent, and nasty game in history :)

Oh man, angry nerds!

There's not even any boobies in this game

Excuse my double post.

"retailer side" should be "retail side"

We all seem to be assuming that T2 will not tone down the game to get a M rating?

This seems to me to be the most likely outcome ... perhaps unfortunately.

[...] There was some big controversy stirred up yesterday as the ESRB handed down their initial sentence rating of AO (Adults Only) for the anticipated game <a href=”http://gamepolitics.com/2007/06/19/breaking-manhunt-2-rated-adults-only-by-esrb/”>Manhunt 2</a>. The game is to be released on PS2, PSP, and Wii simultaneously on July 10. For some reason, both <a href=”http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/buyers_guide.jsp”>Nintendo</a> and Sony have adopted policies that they will not allow licensed third party software providers to release AO content on their console (meaning that only games without the license on the package, such as the white wii stripe at the top of Wii games and the “Playstation 2″ on the side of PS2 games, can have such a rating). This means that Rockstar’s upcoming title has no choice but to either abandon production (a stupid move for a game that’s already complete enough to be handed a rating) or take out enough of the content or mood to change the rating back down to M. [...]

That is not at all what I wanted. How do you make an angry emoticon.

Is there cannibalism? I think there should be cannibalism in MH2. Finger lickin' goodness.

E. Zachary Knight
M is not a defcto R its range is from PG13 to R face it the ESRB waffles a bit and now is rounding up to AO to protect whats left of its rep.

I'll even go futher to say AO is not NC17 because a lot more theaters will show a NC17 movie now a days AO is more like X was.

I think AO needs a retooling and a rename in order for it to drop the stigma.

Continued message that was cut off for whatever reason-

Sony and Nintendo do not currently allow AO games on their consoles and according to Rockstar the only systems it is currently trying to be released on is Wii, PS2 and PSP. No mention of PC release has been mentioned so right now its an option but Rockstar hasn't even mentioned it so don't get your hopes up.

If Sony and Nintendo decide to let an AO rating slide and it is granted special permission to be released onto either console then maybe they will sell it at Best Buy or other retail stores(unlikely) but chances are if such a unlikely event did occur you would have to purchase it offline or in a store that does not have policies against AO rated games.

If it remains AO Rockstar also could release it for PC, in which case no it most likely wouldn't be carried in retail stores, you would have to purchase it offline. I am not sure if any of their contracts with Sony or Nintendo prevents them from doing this but my bet is that it is a possibility.

If Rockstar makes some changes, resubmits to the ESRB and gets a M rating it will most likely be available everywhere unless retailers decide not to carry it. But if it gets a M rating you can buy it online.

I think there needs to be more transparency in both the ESRB and MPAA's rating system. Both are literally "good ol' boys" kind of groups that decided their rating not only on a non-public and likely not even truly set list of rules, they do so behind closed doors with little to no outside input.

The MPAA rated "Midnight Cowboy" X until it won an Academy Award, making them change it to R as a nod toward the Academy. Directors and screenwriter often are blacklisted by means of a too-high rating for the movie's target audience for simply personal reasons.

The ESRB has been argued of the opposite, rating too low to help sales rather than censoring to protect minors. (And by the way, as a former retail clerk, M rated games get sold to minors through even questioning grandmothers.) And favoring violence over any kind of sexual content at all.

My thought is since Congress is forcing retailers to use the rating in limiting sales of both games and movies, then the process for setting the rating should be transparent as well. Not as a government office, but as in full disclosure of the process for public scrutiny.

In a sense like how the Comic Code is a published set of self-censorship for an industry that in the 1950s was feeling the same wrath as video games are today. The transparency gave credence, which gave it support. Rather than censor, in the case of the CC, merely say, in plain language, what brings the decision for a certain rating with as little wiggle room as possible.

@ Dylan:

If you read the ESRB rating descriptor for AO, it is worded so they can rate games that include "prolonged violence" and/or, mind this, OR "sexual content" into this taboo box. The problem is they don't rate games fairly and M titles are often just as bad but without the sexual content America is so afraid of in an adult game. No one has their HEADS in their asses. They can rate the game however they choose. The fact they rated it as AO is suspect based on the press they knew was to come. The ESRB only wants to deal with so much hell from politicians, lawyers, and the media.

Say the game was given an M, based on the fact it doesn't have sexual material (we don't even know yet if this is true, it may) even though it COULD be given the AO brand due to the "prolonged violence". They have the ace card but this time, as they had many times before, they slip it by under the fence. A month later the game comes out and people globally shit themselves, and the phones between the ESRB, Nintendo, Sony and Congress, Rockstar, the anti-violence movement, and media are burned up. Some legal action is threatened or taken and the game gets pulled until it is sorted out, if it is found that the AO rating was applicable in enough people's minds to force the hand.

Instead of balking, Rockstar ran the gambit and the ESRB (under heat already and wanting to avoid more), used the rating that would make the most "influential" people happy and cause them less grief. It forced Rockstar's hand to make some decisions since there is NO support from Nintendo and Sony thus far on this. Nintendo wants to keep the parents' eyes on them as a children-friendly company just as much as they want adult gamers to continue to plunk down cash. It's very fake and somewhere down the line it can't continue. Either a company will step up and take the heat of adult material just like television, movies, and music has before them OR they'll back off and watch their software library become stale because developers are stifled from making statements and producing art.

There's a big disconnect between videogames and society. It's loaded with hypocrisy and self-serving profiteers, and it gets second-class citizenship for any number of reasons. It isn't seen as serious art, although its material can be some of the most awe-inspiring vistas witnessed. Each form of media outside borrows from games more and more, yet videogames continue to be seen as child's play despite the actual player demographics. Videogames traditionally made the bulk of its technological progress in areas that were not over-the-top adult-oriented. There were no porn titles selling the systems. No one remembers Mystique (Swedish Erotica) and other adult titles for the 2600. No one remembers the Panesian titles for the NES. These games were unheard of and hidden. Violence has always been a part of software sold but not the driving force of the sales. Television (cable television especially), VHS sales, the Internet, and so forth were forged ahead on the stream of adult-oriented sales and programming. Those mediums grew a pair in the process because they had to if they wanted to keep the medium alive.

When the industry takes those steps, helped along by developers either forcing them to break open the marketplace OR developers releasing games via their own channels for play (forcing court cases or compromises with the console's companies) then we will have what EVERY other media form enjoys. This protection and fair consideration is a long time coming. I don't think Rockstar will challenge Nintendo and Sony, releasing the game anyway via their own channels or profiteering vendors. A court battle would ensue. It could do it, deny the agreement signed and risk GTA IV making the lineup officially. It's all about licensing at this point, and they could sidestep it if they felt they could force Nintendo and Sony to cave in. Not likely, but it would be interesting. Color Dreams lost against Nintendo though, so I doubt Rockstar stands a chance especially considering they have contracts and agreements already. It is surely going to be an interesting two months.

There is no reason Sony, Nintendo, or Microsoft should be forced to allow anything on their consoles. It's their console platforms.

That said, I think Rockstar has every right (in the United States at least) to release the game to PCs, even in Windows. The PC platform can be differentiated as one that is more open technologically. You can install whatever OS or whatever applications you wish.

I personally think AO ratings shouldn't mean a virtual ban. I understand the marketing reasons for it from the console manufacturers, but I think they do themselves a great disservice. After all, if AO means you can't make ANY sales (even direct mail sales because no retailer will carry it), then all that means is a constant upward pressure on where supposedly "M" rated games can go.

Let AO be AO and M be M. If retailers don't want to carry AO games, fine. Consoles should at least allow AO games to be played because that means the ESRB will be more free to properly rate M games. They won't do it, but it would be better for everyone if they did.

[...] Links: 0. http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/19/1510249&tid=153 1. http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=25930 2. http://gamepolitics.com/2007/06/19/breaking-manhunt-2-rated-adults-only-... 3. http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1562868/20070619/index.jhtml [...]

I can't wait for Rockstars next game: "Rape".

You take on the role of Ed Geisler, escaped serial rapist. In order to survive you must rape and kill a woman before your energy bar runs out. The more brutal the rape, the more energy you are awarded to continue exploring the outside world. There are many options of things you can do to the women (or men!), and you can be as brutal as you like, in fact, the more brutal the better. Women, men, and even children are not safe while you sustain your rampage. So go ahead, own a life.

Rockstar...because too far is never far enough.

I can't wait for that one, but I hope it get an M or even a T rating. I already have my copy preordered.

[...] Full Article [...]

tst, its cencorship at its slezzyiest, if the AO content was allowed on the systems and sold in stores, it would of got a M, the esrb is a bunch of ppl randomly selected to give ratings to games, so of course a bunch of soccer moms would wanna ban this game, that tom guy IS more qulified to rate the game, or better yet get ppl who review it to rate it or somthing, that way we can contain our own media instead of puting it into the hands of a bunch of bashers, the esrb was founded for no reason, america is just a fcking dumbass contrny and ppl need to stop getting pissed at things that they see on t.v. and shit, if a kid when he is little watches horror movies, he grows up to b normal, if a kid watches his first jason flick at 17, he goes out and kills some bitches like he saw in the t.v. and besides this is the real worlds, ur not protecting ur kids ur shielding them from the truth, ur kids gunna have sex, id rather him know wtf hes doing seen it b4 so he knows its not that amazing and doesnt go get a std, but no u can let ur kids learn about sex when there 18 and go rape some chick or some shit. normal human behavoir and shit makes up seek power sex and nutrition, so i dont even think games with sex should b for adults only, i know 12 year olds that know more about sex then some grown men, there not wierd, they just wenrt sheltered little puppies getting exposed to the harsh thing i call reality, yeah ppl die, somtimes very violently, its fun ina game, hell i oculd run ppl over in gta for hours, in real life i like to fight, but not to the point where some1 gets hurt, because its funny when no1 actuly got hurt but when some1 does u realize it, so in other words if ur physco and play manhunt two u just got more ways to kill ppl wich u were gunna kill anyway, if ur normal and play it (assuming its a good game) u say holy shit that was awsome, but damn it must suck ot b that guy. then u go about ur normal life. the esrb is a usless peice of crap that no we dont need, selling violent games to children is fine cuz there gunna see stuff like that eventuly, but if they see it early it wont b as much as a shock and theyll get used to it and u can teach them that it is wrong. trust me only ppl who are gunna like killing ppl no matter what would go and do somthign cuz a game, even twisted gammers like myself do not like to see ppl hurt in real life, no one does

[...] Gamers seem pretty divided on the topic of Manhunt 2’s Adults Only rating from the ESRB—not to mention the outright ban in other countries, including Ireland, the UK, Australia, Italy, and probably Germany soon enough. The banning won’t be necessary if the publisher doesn’t adjust the game so it can earn an M rating: Nintendo and Sony have already announced that they will not license AO-rated games for their systems, and even if they were to allow Manhunt 2 on their consoles, most game retail chains don’t carry AO-rated games anyway (including Wal Mart, which accounts for 25% of game sales alone). In other words, assigning a game an AO rating is basically the kiss of death. [...]

[...] Manhunt 2 rated Adults Only by ESRB [...]

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I know that games don't inspire violence in people who aren't already predisposed to it, but they do make a good scapegoat when some idiot does something atrocious.
Of course I would much rather have my children playing this than watching some of the things I've seen on the Disney channel as of late. If you ask me there should be a special rating for preteen skanks like the cheetah girls and hannah montana. Nobody is trying to pressure my daughter into going on a killing spree, but it seems like everywhere I go people are trying to convince her it's alright to look like she should be standing on the corner in the red light district rather than going to elementary school.

I've heard about this game but I have to admit that I haven't played it. All my friends think that it's a great game. I will play it this days I hope.