"Despite industry claims to the contrary, M-rated games continue to be marketed and sold to children under seventeen. "

That is NOT the industry's fault - it is the fault of the retail market and a fault of the parents for (a) buying games for their children without full comprehension of the ratings system and (b)not policing what their children are playing.

I thought the ESRB was the independent review board.
And I want FULL BLOWN PROOF of marketing to minors, with definitions.

Once again ill propse to the watchdog groups out there.

Its a modest propsoal of course, but why dont we just remove children from the world?

That way the will never be corrupted by the evils that appear around every corner.

We could just labotomize them, or stick them into cages were they sit in isolation everyday, getting fed specificly designed meals and being taught the school stuff while in the cages.

Then we can release them into the world when they are no longer able to be corrupted by evil.

Conservative morons. They hate freedom and expression. I wish I could censor their favorite form of fantasy: the Bible. Then they might shut the hell up, crawl back into their dens of superstition, and leave people alone.

Genocidal, mind-washing, dogma is being forced upon children under the age of 17. Where is the outrage?

@ Pandralisk,

biased much?

@Padaralisk
What part of the Bible is fantasy?

@ night Gia
Don't forget about books, jazz, dances, comics, etc....

I think this is just silly. if the ESRB thinks its OK to give the censored Manhunt 2 an M rating, than I would think these watchdogs would accept the loss. but no, now its saying the Wii is going to increase the violence with "Movement violence! OHH!!!" Here's hoping these people will go nuts over No More Hero's, the overly violent game by the Killer7 crew thatb allows you to not only do the sword swings yourself, but you 'Power up' by doing a masturbation movement

Marketed towards children... reviewed by a non-industry board... and I thought they might have something new to say.

this smells like jack thompson has some involvement

The watchdog group are godd#m f#cken idiots that need to back off my right in America to play this game. If those damn watchdog group idiots cared so much about people, why dont they just spend their time saving lives in way worse situations than a video game.

I was so excited about this news and now those fuck#n bit#h's are still messing with the game after it got rated.

So they want access to the innards of a private contract? One designed to protect the content of a game from being leaked before the street date?

If I have been correctly informed, the only party who can release the videos, if at all, is the developer/publisher. The ESRB cannot give out the game play footage OR the version of the game given to be played.


Of course these idiots don't seem to realize you can redo some gameplay and edit art assets then resubmit. I don't envy the person who tries to explain this concept to them.

@zerodash
I hope you REALLY know what you are talking about...


Anyway, I'm still waiting for proof that this game is being marketed to children.

@Pandralisk

sush up, or at least blame the Donkeys as well. Both 'sides' are looking to score brownie points by "saving the children".

In all truth both the donkeys and elephants are nothing more then bullshiters who say that they are diffrent then the otherside, then turn around and repeat them. There is one true thing to call them. Polititions, all most all exist to ban/extort the general public to make a quick buck.

I was just mad when I was saying what I thought about those violators of our rights. The game has been rated already so they need to leave the game alone so we can play the game by which we have the right to do.

@ Jack Thompson
As for you there is nothing you can do about the game coming out because it got rated already and a release date. To add on with that you would be dealing with our amendment right. Case closed on the Manhunt 2 issue.

There has been more than two times the ESRB used the AO rating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AO-rated_products

Odd. "We urge the ESRB to make public their rationale for changing Manhunt 2’s rating, including detailing any content that was removed from the game."

Why do you need to know what was *removed* from the game in order to judge it now? Does it matter in the slightest what content is *not* in the retail game? Dr. Linn should be ashamed of the foul language and graphic sexual references that she didn't include in her statement.

The Campaign For a Commercial-Free Childhood is extremely concerned that the ESRB has downgraded its rating for Manhunt 2 from 'adults only' to 'not suitable for children'.

Yeah. OK.

@ all involved in the Bible/Myth commentary

It is pretty much proven scientific fact that Jesus existed, and I'm fairly certain that a lot of his life's detailing is either correct or an exaggeration to some unknown extent written by the uneducated people of the times (ever seen the Family Guy Movie?). My religious faith tells me that the parts intended as truth are, in fact, true. Parables are not intended as truth, for example. Some of the other stories are not fact as well, such as the creation stories. Rather, they were contrived to portray a set of ideas. For example, that "resting on the seventh day" thing just gives a good reason to "keep holy the sabbath". After all, how can a single religion believe that the world was created in two different, non-interchangeable ways? Anyway, my point is that only SOME of the Bible is fiction. Unfortunately, many interpret the fictional elements as fact. I'm also guessing that Goliath was not a giant, just a tall muscular man.

All of this debate on AO video gaming and the Bible makes me want to make the Bible: the Game.

"We call upon Rockstar Games to allow the content of Manhunt 2 to be reviewed by an independent review board with no ties to the video game industry."



UHHHH........ the ESRB?

The group has called for a federal government investigation into how Manhunt 2 came to be an M-rated game.

Here, let me spare the tax payers their hard earned dollars. R* trimmed off some of the over the top content and resubmitted it to the ESRB. The amount removed was sufficient to bring it under whatever ceiling the M rating has. Cue complaints from the nanny stateists that want all media to conform to the standards suitable for your average 8 year old.

I am as upset as everyone else about all this ho-ha! over games getting bad publicity. As i keep saying, over, and over, and over again is that history repeats it self ALOT.

This has all happened before. Death Metal, the Jazz dancing our grandparents did.(I forgot the name), but it was "too vulgar" or some shiat.

The only thing we can do, is back up our claims with facts that we have readily available and just weather the storm. I do hope that it wont get out of control. If it does, well, i just pray we can come to a good conclusion.

I'm mainly worried about all the people that actually believe the BS they spew out of their mouth 24/7. You all know people that fit that profile.

They are the kind of people that make Darwin a very, very, very unhappy panda.

"There has been more than two times the ESRB used the AO rating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AO-rated_products"

I believe CCFC are confusing the ESRB with the UK's BBFC, which outright banned Manhunt 2, and if memory serves is only the second ever time they've done so with a game. Fills you with confidence in their fact-checking ability if that is indeed the case.

They're talking about an AO rating assigned because of violence. There was indeed more than two AO ratings assigned to games but all of these excepted for two exceptions (one being Manhunt 2) were because the games contained adult only nudity, sexual content, etc.

Actually, I personally sympathize with most of the CCFC's aims. It's great that they want to stop commercial exploitation of children. However, sometimes they go too far- like right now.

The problem here is word got out that Manhunt got an AO rating. Now that R* cut some stuff its gets a M rating. See a lot of games probably getting rated higher than the developer was hoping for, granted most of those games are rated T and was initially given a M rated so the developers go back and get rid of the M stuff. I bet R* was shooting for a M rating and well the random people who rated thought differently. The problem is the word got out about the AO rating and here we are today. I knew this would happen and I know someone would have a problem with it. Lets just hope this doesn't stop anything cause I would be really mad and I'm not even planning on buying the game.

All I can think about this world is its all screwed up and the sad part is its the so call "Can Do/Baby Boomer Generation" screwing it up. Funny all the hard times made them the so called greatest generation and now they want to screw up the world for the rest of us but making it one huge nanny state. I feel sorry for the kids today who can't even ride their bike 100 feet from their house.

Would it be out of line if I "called for" Dr. Susan Linn to grasp my manhood firnly in one hand, place it between two slices of thick, peasanty bread, slather it with the condom of her choice, and proceed to consume the meat that is me?

If it is, I won't suggest it. Just want to check first.

honestly, can they sound any more paranoid? The game was given an AO because of the extreme content. They took some of it out, and now it got lowered. Now they are play the broken record of "marketing to kids" bull crap. I watch some of the channels that would supposedly be kid's oriented. I have yet to see any form of violent gaming content. HOWEVER, I have seen some movie ads that aren't exactly appropriate.

On a phone call with CCFC’s Dr. Susan Linn, ESRB President Patricia Vance refused to comment on what changes Rockstar made or whether any of the content described [in an IGN preview] was still in the game.


Well she's not allowed to, if she did she could get sued by Rockstar (and since they gave manhunt 2 an Ao rating they wouldn't hesitate to).

The [CCFC] is extremely concerned that the ESRB has downgraded its rating for Manhunt 2… Despite industry claims to the contrary, M-rated games continue to be marketed and sold to children under seventeen. The ESRB’s reversal of its earlier decision dramatically increases the likelihood that Manhunt 2 – the most violent game to date produced for the interactive Nintendo Wii platform – will be marketed and sold to children.


As pointed out upteenth times the first statement is BS. The next statement is a no-brainer. I mean if a game goes from Ao to M then it significantly increases the chances it will sold at all.

We call upon Rockstar Games to allow the content of Manhunt 2 to be reviewed by an independent review board with no ties to the video game industry.

Let me guess one that you guys personally picked out and is as biased as Jack Thompson? Sure they can rate it after the game is released. Even if Rockstar gave them a copy before that time, their rating won't matter because it wouldn't impact whether or not they can sell the game at most retailers (like the esrb) and they wouldn't have to put their rating anywhere on their box.

The [CCFC] is extremely enraged that the ESRB has dared to downgrade its rating for Manhunt 2… Despite our claims the stuff's all too often sold to and played by 3 year-olds, AO-rated and M games are mainly bought by responsible adults. But adults are often children at heart! The ESRB’s evaluation of the censored and different Manhunt 2 version dramatically increases the likelihood the CCFC – that's us - produces complaints, whines and talks crap about you and your, uh, video games for the rest of your miserable lives.

Just three months ago, the ESRB felt that the uncensored version of Manhunt 2 was so violent that it took the extraordinary step of giving a game an AO rating for violent content for only the second time in its history. We urge the ESRB to rate the new, censored version of Manhunt 2 AO just as well, because we just plain love to demand crap all the damn time, it's our hobby, we got nothin' better to do.

We call upon Rockstar Games because we want to annoy them into oblivion, to allow the content of Manhunt 2 to be destroyed by an independent terrorist organizatoin with ties to the law industry. We already know just who to talk to about that!

We ask the Federal Trade Commission, because it just sounds cool, to investigate the process by which Manhunt 2’s rating was downgraded from AO to M. Yeah, invenstigate! And process! Cool words, hey? Makes the stuff read more grown up and all serious.

Don't by video games! They're evil! Everything mature, grown up, or made for people over 18 is evil! That's right -- every grown up is a child at heart, don't forget that. There *must* be no video games for adults. God forbid we find out we have nipples.

WhatNow stole my thunder. =(

oh yeah, and when was the last time the MPAA was scrutinized for downgrading a movie rating from NC-17 to R????

bet it happens every damn week

oh, and another thing, I'm SO glad I have all these groups out there telling me how to be a good parent...

thank goodness I don't have to make any of my own decisions...

Well, i think today's government would like to take the responsibility out of your hands.

[The Government]
The Government, let us raise your kid!

"Marketed and sold to children under seventeen?"

As far as I know, it's completely legal to market violent games to kids age sixteen.

@ Sean

The producers of Married With Children did the same(sent a fruit basket every Christmas) to some housewife in Michigan that bitched about the show many years ago, because all it did was boost their ratings and put the Fox network on the map.

The CCFC should get a tongue-in-cheek thank you card from Take-Two since their bitching and moaning will just sell more copies of Manhunt 2 on Halloween.

@ chris

I didn't think about that. I'll just chalk that up to assuming that those 58% that got turned away came back later on with a parent or guardian, even though it could also be assumed that they went to another store.

I just ran with the stats. Still, based on all those stats, minors buying a M-rated game by themselves is actually a rare occurance.

I'm not even going to bother sifting through the comments,
I'm just going to say;
SHUT THE F**K UP

Jesus christ,
the game has been altered to suit the M liscence,
let it go.

VULTURES the lot of them.

I hate everyone.

Well, lets say a minor does infact buy this game. They cant really keep it a secret from their parents. I mean, they could, but that would mean only playing it when they are not home and such.

So any responsible parent would know what their kid is doing, or at least playing, in their own home.

So not only can bad game buy choices be stopped when the parent buys the game for their child, but also it can be stopped at the home as well.

So...with that OBVIOUS solution found, why does our government leaders continue to persue this idea that video games need restrictions?

I hear its because they want you to believe they care about your children. I doubt they do. Sounds like fear mongering and easy votes for them, if they can sucker the ignorant.

"It is pretty much proven scientific fact that Jesus existed"

No, it isn't.

"Despite industry claims to the contrary, M-rated games continue to be marketed and sold to children under seventeen. The ESRB’s reversal of its earlier decision dramatically increases the likelihood that Manhunt 2 – the most violent game to date produced for the interactive Nintendo Wii platform – will be marketed and sold to children."

These people are facist idiots who continue to purport their myths in order to try and curb free expression and free speech.

We need to start *seriously* acting to shut these people and these myths down, or it's just going to get worse.

They're getting as bad as anti abortion people.

You know now that I typed that, I have a question. Usually, politicians/organizations do this for money or votes. But why is the CCFC doing it? For media attention? Is it even worth it just to appear in an article or television?

@J-Guy

They're doing it as part of their quest to eliminate everything they find objectionable; theoretically they're doing that for "the children" which also means they'd like to dictate how you raise your kids.

@Central

To my knowledge a dev or publisher can release the vids they will present to the ESRB, however, do you really expect them to do that when it can give away significant portions of the story, and gameplay?

There's just no pleasing some people. I bet you these are the kind of people that think that episode of CSI: Miami (the one where college students were imitating a GTA like game) actually applies to real life.

Get back to parenting CCFC, it's what you were supposed to do in the first place instead of blaming your inabilities to monitor your children everything other than yourself.

~Sol~

I had a nice conversation with one of the Rockstar Booth employees at the Penny Arcade Expo today. They were quite proud to share with me that the game had been rated M this very morning. I asked how they managed to do that, but it wasn't clear if the game was appealed and then re-rated, or content was changed in order to gain an M. I'll ask again tomorrow to see if I can get any more juicy details. :)

Also, in response to this comment made by Dr. Linn "Just three months ago, the ESRB felt that Manhunt 2 was so violent that it took the extraordinary step of giving a game an AO rating for violent content for only the second time in its history. We urge the ESRB to make public their rationale for changing Manhunt 2’s rating, including detailing any content that was removed from the game."

As a game developer I can assure you that Manhunt 2 being only the second game ever to be rated AO for violence is false. There are many many games that have gone through this exact process of submitting, changing content or appealing to the ESRB, and being re-rated before the game is released. Largely this is a private matter that is dealt with between the developer/publisher and the ESRB until a conclusion is reached. The only difference with Manhunt 2 is the amount of public exposure that this game has gotten due to the rating it recieved before launch.

And, if I remember correctly, the details as to why the ESRB makes a desicion on a rating is left up to the developer/publisher to share with the public, (confidentiality, I assume, is contractually obligated on the part of the ESRB) and is not something that the ESRB can just willy-nilly share with any group that comes along.

Also, I got to talk with Hal at the ECA booth. We were both quite sad that Mr. Thompson chose not to show up to PAX. I was quite proud to shake the man's hand. Woot! :D

If content wasn't changed to get the "M", I'll publicly apologize to R* and send them donuts... with icing.

But I seriously doubt that's what happend.

I highly doubt jackie boy had anything to do with this...believe it or not (sad to say) but he's not the only one who thinks like that.

As for this...I think they are just trying to discredit the ESRB, and are using Manhunt 2 as the scapegoat.

Gotta be honest on this one, I'll bet they've been waiting months to make this press release. Sitting around, scheming, plotting, reading all the major blogs for this day to finally come where they can lash out and make one hell of an unsupported press release.

Regardless, the only real credence that I'd give them, is to have the ESRB to come out with their reasons as to why games are rated the way they are.

There is the fine line, that the problem with being completely open about what's been revised in the game spoils the content for the consumer and ultimately harms the developer's sales. On the other hand, they're so secretive that nobody can make heads or tails of what gives games their ratings.

@Lard

I'm a graduate student of History at UMass (there's my creds) so let me make this clear, Jesus as a man DID exist as a person, religions don't just appear without a movement or a person who brings it about. The person Jesus existed, as did Muhammad and Buddah, now whether or not you believe that these people were divine is of course a matter of personal belief... (for further reading you might want to check out several PRIMARY DOCUMENTS written by contemporaries of the time.. like Roman politicians who were irritated by a Hebrew rabble-rouser by the name of Jesus)

@the actual topic
This kind of thing is really getting out of hand; when is the industry going to stand up and fight, when are they going to try and overcome the MYTH that video games are inherently for children?

@Candide

"I’m a graduate student of History at UMass (there’s my creds) so let me make this clear, Jesus as a man DID exist as a person"

Jesus is as real as Robin Hood or Santa Claus

The man leading the effort at this Harvard-based organization is Josh Golin. Great guy, and he knows precisely what he is doing, as does the entire organization.

As I told Josh yesterday (he didn't know about the re-rating), "This will be the dumbest thing Take-Two ever did, because it should lead to a federal investigation of the ESRB, and it should."

Okay, so I'm guilty of giving them the idea. So sue me.

What happens, kiddies, is that the ESRB, which is owned, operated, and funded by the industry "arranges" a re-rating of the game through the backdoor, and that's what happened here.

Whether there is a federal investigation or not, this truly is a dumb move by the ESRB. The ESRB could, until this, plausibly argue that its giving an AO rating to Manhunt 2 shows it could be trusted by parents. Not now.

Oh, and I have a couple of tricks up my sleeve for the ESRB on this. Stay tuned. Is this a great country or what? Hooah!!!

Jack Is Back Thompson

For the unspinned version of what the FTC actually said, see GP's coverage.

The FTC gave the indusrty kudos for continuing to reduce sales of M-rated games to minors, especially at chain retailers.

The FTC spanked the industry in the area of Internet marketing and not having ESRB content descriptors on the front of game packaging.

Btw, the above I wrote message was addressed to Thompson.

Not that he'll ever read it. He never reads the user comments. He only addresses to Dennis, So I might as well say this for laughs:

[GP: snip.... leave families out of it, plz]

Oh what fun.

Okay, I'm sorry about that comment, but JT never reads or replies to the commentors except on very RARE occasions. So I might as well just have some fun.

Besides, and eye for an eye is the only way to communicate wit that guy.

@ DarrelBT, you're absolutely right. I watched a debate between Jack Thompson and Paul Levinson. He kept interrupting him like an immature baby.

Well JT, they edited some of the content out to get it down to a M.

It happens in the movie industry all the time - a snip here, a redub there, volia, what was once an R is now a PG13... So why should this be treated any different?

@TheGanner

It happened on G4 as well, hell,he kept interrupting the moderator as he was trying to wrap it up. and he kept trying to butt in whenever Adam was speaking.

@Kurisu7885

That comes as no surpise to me. He sounded so childish. Listen to some of these:

"Can I talk now?

"Okay he's (Paul Levinson) done now. Can I talk?"

"I think you misspoke."

When, in fact, Paul meant exactly what he said. And was right.

Nightwing, he only brags about his victories.

And should we blame him? No one likes to talk about their defeats.

"What happens, kiddies, is that the ESRB, which is owned, operated, and funded by the industry “arranges” a re-rating of the game through the backdoor, and that’s what happened here."

They took the game, toned down the most contentious parts of it so that it would fit the M for Mature guidelines and resubmitted. Clear and simple, not via the "backdoor".

It has not been re-rated. The game was changed and sent in for a brand new rating. This new rating is based on a different product to the one that received an AO rating. If it was a re-rating, then the ESRB would have taken the original game and changed their mind on what to rate it. This is not the case.

"Whether there is a federal investigation or not, this truly is a dumb move by the ESRB. The ESRB could, until this, plausibly argue that its giving an AO rating to Manhunt 2 shows it could be trusted by parents. Not now."

They ESRB has not changed it's position on the original Manhunt 2 that was submitted. If they game was left unchanged then if it was resubmitted it would again receive an AO rating. But, as I have explained, the version of Manhunt 2 that received an M rating and will subsequently be released is not the same. It has been changed to tone down much of the violent content, resulting in a lesser rating. Just because the game is still called Manhunt 2 does not mean the content is the same.

None of these people seem to be able to grasp the simple concept that the game was changed to tone down the violence.

"The [CCFC] is extremely concerned that the ESRB has downgraded its rating for Manhunt 2"

*sigh* Here we go again. The ESRB has not downgraded it's rating for Manhunt 2. A new, toned down version of the game was submitting and received a brand NEW rating based on it's content, which was obviously less violent.

"Just three months ago, the ESRB felt that Manhunt 2 was so violent that it took the extraordinary step of giving a game an AO rating for violent content for only the second time in its history."

Untrue about only being the second time a game has been rated AO, but true in that the ESRB felt it merited an AO rating.

"We urge the ESRB to make public their rationale for changing Manhunt 2’s rating, including detailing any content that was removed from the game."

*bangs head on desk* They have not changed Manhunt 2's rating!!!! A new version has been made with a lot of the violence removed and that has gotten a bard new rating!

"We call upon Rockstar Games to allow the content of Manhunt 2 to be reviewed by an independent review board with no ties to the video game industry."

This sounds like JT's tactic of saying "Let me look at Bully and I will decide whether or not anyone shall play it". If it wasn't a case of Manhunt protecting their IP and the game was to be reviewed, I would also ask that the review board have no ties to the CCFC, NIMF, etc. if it were to be truly independent.


"We ask the Federal Trade Commission to investigate the process by which Manhunt 2’s rating was downgraded from AO to M."

*screams in frustration* I've just told you numerous times!!! The rating was not downgraded! The new version of the game is not as violent and received a lower rating!

Yesterday I was just messing around when I made partial cuss words for my expression of the watchdog group. I believe in having decent conversations over these issues to resolve them. I have seen a few people on this site use full cuss words which is evidently allowed to a certain degree.

We all should be glad that this game is coming out since the rating process is over. At least this game was not cancelled like Thrill Kill. I believe to this day that Thrill Kill should be released since there is already games like Grand Theft Auto available. In celebration over this issue they should have a special edition of Manhunt 2 with Thrill Kill. Now that is what I would call a special edition.

Worse yet is that, on occassion, when John Bruce fails, he blames others rather than his own actions.

Of course, this also explains his "Blame the Game" attitude that he takes on behalf of others. Whether it's Devin Moore, Eric and Dylan, Cho, Gil, even Cody Posey or Robida, it's the Game's fault, or the Music's fault, or Tv's fault.

Whose fault is it that he had alleged heart trouble? The Industry. Whose fault was it that he acted out in court or court papers? The Industry. Whose fault is it that he is abusive verbally (even in writing)? Gamers or even his God's fault (as it's what his God wants him to do as a Warrior for God). Whose fault was it that he got kicked off the Alabama case? Judge Moore's. Whose fault was it that his appearance at PAX was cancelled? Penny Arcade's.

It's never John Bruce's fault. It's always someone else's.

Way to be a mature, responsible, adult there John Bruce.

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

Also Jack, give me evidence that proves that Manhunt 2 was not changed and this is "through the backdoor". Otherwise this is just more of your paranoid delusions.

I'll be playing some Half-Life 2 while you are gathering up all those facts for me. Thanks, bye.

When the ESRB rates, they do not come back with ambiguous comments. Comments are specific. They are things that can be acted upon by the developer and if reworked properly, the game should be able to achieve the desired rating.

One of the games I worked on essentially "failed" on it's first pass through. We were aiming for a "T" for Teen rating (it was an RTS) and the reviewers thought that the amount of blood generated by dead soldiers ... especially when a lot of soldiers died all at once in the same place was over the top. We dialed back on the blood smears and passed muster the next time through. We weren't artistically compromised and game play remained the same.

Let look at that lovely thing called context, yes the FTC report spanked ALL media, movies, music, and video games, for their advising practices but let look at what John Bruce leaves out.

On advertising: You say our frontal lobes are fried and that we should read the FTC study well I have lets test you reading comprehension, from the study that can found here: http://www.ftc.gov/reports/violence/070412MarketingViolentEChildren.pdf complete with page numbers(All emphasize mine):

Let us start with this lovely quite from the executive summery:
“As with the Commission’s review of the other industries, internal marketing documents and ad placements for selected M-rated games showed that the video game companies contacted for this Report **DID NOT specifically target advertising for those games to children under 17.**” In addition, advertising on television programs popular with teens appears to be diminishing."
-The center of your argument is that the exposure to ads for violent video games is a deliberate and intentional marketing strategy (as opposed to ads having unintentional overlap between target and inappropriate demographics) and yet the first thing they talk about under the heading “games” in the executive summery is how that there is no evidenced of deliberate targeting.

Let continue with the application of context:.
“The ESRB continues to set a high standard for the clear and prominent disclosure of rating information in television, print, and the Internet. In addition, placements of advertising on television programs popular with teens appear to be diminishing.” (Page 24)
-I can see why you so want us to read the report Mister Thompson: high standards clear and prominent these words clearly make the ESRB sound shady and untrustworthy don’t they? (sarcasm)

“Although the video game industry has adopted limits on Internet advertising, the relevant standard – ads cannot appear on a site where more than 45% of visitors are under 17 – is so permissive that advertisements for M-rated games can reach large numbers of young teens and children. Moreover, the Commission’s review found many examples of non-compliance with even that limited restriction. **The movie and music industries have adopted NO standards restricting Internet advertising for R-rated movies and explicit-content labeled music.**” (Page 31)
-While the industry is not doing a great job here what JT fails to mention is that the FTC report leaned far harder music and movies for not having any regulations at all on advertising and what he really doesn’t want to tell you is that the ESRB, be it by default, actually had the best standards in this regard.

“As the Commission’s latest mystery shops show, national video game sellers *significantly improved* their record of enforcement compared to their performance at the time of the Commission’s last report. They cut the rate at which underage shoppers could buy M-rated games nearly in half, to under 40%. One retailer – Wal-Mart – stood out from the others, permitting fewer than two out of ten shoppers to buy an M-rated game.
On the other hand, music and movie DVD retailers have made little progress in adopting and enforcing point-of-sale age restrictions.” (Page 32)
-Parents can’t trust a system that has been shown to be significantly improving?

“ Given important *First Amendment* considerations, the Commission supports *private* sector initiatives by industry and individual companies to implement these suggestions.” (Page 33)
How does this support your legislative efforts John Bruce?

On Accuracy: “The parent and child surveys paint a *mostly positive* picture of the ESRB system. The system is a useful and important tool that parents increasingly use to help them make informed decisions about games for their children” (Page 30)
“These data DO NOT suggest that ESRB ratings overall, or for a particular rating category, are generally invalid or “inaccurate.” Uniform agreement among parents about game ratings is unrealistic, given that the rating exercise involves some degree of subjectivity. Moreover, the impact of occasional disagreement with ESRB ratings may be buffered by the relatively high level of participation and monitoring parents have reported exercising when it comes to their children’s game play.” (Page 31)

On awareness and use:
“Overall, the results of the parent and child surveys reflect* positively* on the ESRB system. Awareness levels of the ESRB system have risen significantly since the 2000 survey.” (Page 26)
-So is the report all sunshine and roses for the industry? No. Is it proof that the industry is doing a horrible job, is inaccurate, is an industry tool, and whatever else John Bruce and his elk want to believe it is? No. What is a balanced report noting may good improvement, providing constructive criticism and overall in support of self-regulation.
Context it is beautiful thing.
PS: Could we all please at least skim the report some people here are and have clearly draw conclusions about it without having taken a look at it.

Edit: the frist quote is found on page iii. The last quote is on page 27 not 26. I really need an edit function.

I looked at the list again. Thrill Kill and The Punisher both got AO ratings. I know Thrill Kill got an AO for violence, and I doubt The Punisher got an AO for sexual content.

Okay, no way that's jack, I mean, when have you ever heard him talk like that?

@Dietdan

Excellent post.


@Jack Thompson

As Dietdan's post kind of trumps your claims do you have any counter-counter points? Or are you going to do what you always do and slither out of this thread without commenting further so you can just post the same tripe in a future thread and have us repeat the process of proving your wrong time and time again.

Forget debating Halpin, if you can't beat a bunch of internet geeks, well its time to pack it in.

Jack, the only GTA game I've played and enjoyed is Vice City, and I don't even play that often. I think all the other games in the series are a waste of time. In fact, I'm playing Gran Turismo 4 at the moment. Now there's a great all-ages game.

Oh, wait-- I bet that game encourages youngsters to buy their own car and race it without their parent's permission! DAMN YOU SONY!!! PEARL HARBOUR 2 PEARL HARBOUR 2 PEARL HARBOUR 2!!!11UIOHEF8B

But, anyway, on topic. Why is a watchdog group complaining that the game has been censored and re-rated, let alone asking for an investigation as to why it was re-rated? Flawless logic, indeed.

It's times like this I'm glad I don't live in the US.

@tammej

Well put my friend, that made my day.

wow their leader went to harvard (wait didnt our president go to harvard)?

Dennis, why haven't you re-banned Thompson ?

@father time

its from his "you are all diseased" stand up......

should be easy to find on amazon...he goes into a little more but yea you will like it.....

"kids dont smoke because a camel in sunglasses tells them to they smoke for the same reasons adults do because it releaves anxiety and depression"

@Jack Thompson

http://members.aol.com/KinCryos/FTC.png
You mean these FTC findings which clearly show that violent videogames sold to those under 17 took a nosedive while violent movies and music continue to stay strong? You're like the lazy corrupt cop who gives the speeding ticket to the slowest vehicle. Sure, you say you're protecting the chickens from the foxes, but the truth is that a wolf is a poor choice for said guard.

Okay Pandralisk, then I shall dub you the Jack Thompson of religion. As your close minded attacks echo his oh so greatly.

Pandralisk,

Not all conservatives are Bible-thumping extremists.

Not all people with religious beliefs are trying to censor games or cram their beliefs down your throat.

Based on your feedback, should I conclude that all liberals are close-minded, empty-headed, biased jackasses?

The point is, the more you speak in hyperbole and simply attack that which you clearly don't understand, the more you sound like Thompson and his ilk.

"Biased? Read the Bible."

I have. Your point being?


"If you the words “vindictive, genocidal, evil, and ficticious” do not apply to the child-like diety described in 4000th edition 2,000 year old hate manual, then I simply doubt your understanding of the terms in question."

So if someone doesn't agree with your OPINION, then they are wrong. Cute.


"Unlike Thompson, my thoughts are grounded firmly in emperical reality. I can objectively prove my thoughts through acceptable epistomological means: probability, empercism, historical analysis (to name a few)."

So what you are saying is that like Thompson your scrape up a few facts, put your spin on them, then fill in the rest with your own personal opinion that you state as fact.


"Refer to the books of Leviticus, Revelations, and Deut. if you wish to learn about the true nature of the Israeli God of Murder."

I have. Your point being?


"And, even more important, if you read the post in full, you might notice that I am completely fine with bible-thumping superstitious morons preaching their hate"

Pot meet kettle. You have no right talking about hate. Your little rant there was just stewing in it.


"providing they keep their BS legislation, morality, and freedom-hating crusades away from forms of media."

And what about the "bible-thumping morons" who also fight the video game Jack to keep their legislation of our media as well? Of course I doubt you could comprehend such a thing, a Christian who is for personal accountability and freedom. Doesn't that just crush your stereotype.

"But they will never allow us to enjoy media freely; this is exactly why fighting fire with fire should be considered."

And at the same time shun those who have the Christian faith who also believe in your cause. But hey, if your okay with a black and white "every Christian bad" thing go for it.

The only reason I'm bothering to respond to you Religion Jack is that I'm bored. Though this does seem reminiscent of an argument I had with a Storm Front moron. He also claimed that I was ignoring the evidence of how jewish people are supposedly in control and evidence of black inferiority.

But despite the fact you think that I'm hateful I actually don't hate you. Pity, yes. But I don't hate you.

Explain that Religion Jack.

[...] The Campaign for a Commercial Free Childhood, the group who demanded that Manhunt 2 recieve and AO rating after it actually recieved an AO, rating, recently demanded that the federal government investigate how the game was recently rerated M. [...]

@ Murry

"Editing down the game to get a acceptable rating is a dumb thing? wow. I guess JT actualy dosnt condon the editing of a game to fit more in with what society finds acceptable. You rebel you."

That's just what i was going to say. Apparently, to Jack, video games are the only form of media, nay, expression, that has to be done right the first time and no edits or deletions can be made to the product before issuing it to the public.

Mr. Thompson, it's called a ROUGH DRAFT. Surely you proofread your press releases and letters and whatnot before you send them to whoever you send them to, right? To get the most prejudicial bullcrap into each sentence you can? Right.

Books, movies, song lyrics, theater scripts, TV shows, whatever you will, they can be edited and redrafted to no tomorrow before being released, and you're fine with that. But oh no, video games, they have to go right through and can't be changed. Great. Good luck trying to come up with THAT sort of arguement without sounding insanely biased on the matter.

Oh yeah just want to say that I accidentally posted the parody post a bit too early which is why there are two posts, sorry about that.

@ cullarn

Bush went to Yale.

@Jack Thompson

You want us to prove that they games aren't marketed to kids? That game are not related to violence? I'm sorry, that's now how the justice system works. You of all people should know that the burden of proof is on the accuser AND the phrase "beyond reasonable doubt" applies to any proof you provide.

You swing and miss.

@Pandralisk

The fact that you say "Christians" period and not "bad Christians" is reprehensible. I'm a Christian. I guess I need to be held accountable for what you said Christians need to be held accountable. OH, WAIT! I *DON'T* believe in preaching hate and murder (death is kind of a natural thing, so need to preach about it). Yet, apparantly, you think I need to be held accountable for that. So, Jack Thompson thinks I'm a bad person because I'm a video gamer and you think I'm a bad person 'cause I'm a Christian.

I want there to be no unconstitional laws passed that restrict video games. I want people of all sexual orientations to be able to marry and have children, if they choose to. I want people to leave each other the hell alone and not infringe on their personal liberties. I don't want religion in my schools, government, aka I believe wholeheartedly in the 1st Amendment. And I'm Catholic.

Jebus, man, do you really not see how you're alienating a whole bunch of people here with your idiotic black & white attitude?

Wow...an atheist version of Jack Thompson...

Way to go Pandralisk, you and Jackie boy both make bad arguments with black and white attitudes, and make each of your religions look bad in the process. Nice job, feces stain.

Dear JT,

This is statement alone makes me sure that we Malaysians will never trust you regarding violence in videogames.

Because you see, most Malaysians are muslims. And since you hate Muslims...well, you do the math.

is it really racism if he's discriminating based on faith instead of race?

well thats besides the point

Jack: answering his hate filled comments with hate filled comments that aren't even directed at him, does nothing to help your cause, and seriously can tarnish your reputation in the public eye even more so then it is already tarnished

"is it really racism if he’s discriminating based on faith instead of race?"


No its not racism. Its bigotry.

Oh and I do apologize for the triple post. But Dennis, don't you think that the racism and bigotry being shown by Jack Thompson and Pandralisk are coming rather close to crossing the posting guidelines here?

@Chuma

He wasn't being racist so much as the bigot we've come to know him to be

Isn't it funny that we consider religion the only field of thought that is exempt from providing evidence for beliefs? Knowledge should always orignate from fact (an not from the abscense of fact). As a hard-line agnostic, I completely agree that atheism requires equally gullible jumps in faith; however, I think we CAN prove several things regarding the Judeo-Christian tradition:

1. God, as described in the Bible, is an objectively evil being that severely contradicts itself throughout holy scripture. God, as described in the Judeo-Christian tradition, could not exist conceptually because it contradicts itself on so many levels within holy scripture. In light of such contradictions, there exists NO forms of evidence that point to, justify, or explain the existence of this entity.

2. The wide practice of faith in modern times is a consequence of unregulated freedom to preach dogma to children and indoctrinate them at an age when they are not yet capable of fully understanding the religious tradition. In the past, such superstition was spread through widespread war, persecution, and intolerance.

I do not see how my comments are "racist" when they simply label Christian values that are explicitly within holy scripture and suggest a course of action that could effectively silence critics of media freedom. Judeo-Christian "morality" is the chief architect and modivation in the assault against media freedom; its widespread devaluation would be a MASSIVE victory for those who value freedom of expression.

big·ot·ry [big-uh-tree]

–noun, plural -ries.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.


The only persecution and intolerance I see here is from you and your twin Jack.

I apologize if I offended any Christians, but I do stand by the literal biblical values that justify an arguement that devaluates Christian dogma. I stand by the literal Biblical scriptures that tell of "God" commanding the rape, murder, and torture of millions of human beings. I do not think I am being biggotish or intolerant by simply calling something that commits such actions evil and pointing the subjectivity and superstition regarding the faith or belief in such an entity.

Nor do I see how it is offensive to suggest that exposing children to such a complicated, morally questionable, and superstitious belief system should be a much more pressing concern that regulating video games designed for adults. Devaluation of Judeo-Christian dogma might not stop ALL assaults on media freedom, but it would be a MAJOR victory for proponents of freedom. Afterall, where and why does the vast majority of this criticsm come from?

The criticism comes from small minded people who think nothing but to enforce their opinions onto others, believing they know best.

These people will exist with or without religion. and will still oppose modern media regardless.

@Pandralisk

Muslims. Norse. Christians. Roman. Some native American. Possibly Celtic (not the most familiar with them).

They're all the same; they're religions, and have been involved in violence.

Greek, Egyptian, Sumerian, Babylonians, Persian.

I think the biggest problem is you single out Christianity. Hell, I'm not even Christian, and I see how arrogant your comments are. For the real kicker, I'm pagan, y'know, the ones who are really going to Hell; and of course, there was the demonization and genocide of various non-Christian followers, and I find you unpleasant. The religion itself isn't bad; it's what people have turn it into. It has good concepts, like the Ten Commandments, and I think they're meant to be interpreted not by others for you, but by yourself. I think THAT is the biggest problem with Christianity, they teach what they want to teach, rather than letting someone discover themselves in the belief structure.

If anything, I find your comments idiotic. Censorship would continue, even if you did ditch religion. Hell, it might cause more problems than good. So what, they've done evil in the past, so has every religion and race in the history of the world. And as for that whole thing that there is no evidence, I've had argument with people like you, and that whole "no evidence" card get soooo tiring... Now I don't believe in their God, no, but what I do know is just because there's not evidence of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Long ago, we had no evidence of black holes, but they exist. Or of quasars, radio waves, gamma rays, etc. And all that exists. You can say seeing is believing all you want, but there are things that are real that you can't see. To think that something cannot exist if it has no current evidence...If the world always thought of that, we'd never be as knowledgeable as we are now, why would we bother having the fields of science then?

I understand why some of you would be thinking that Jack Thompson and
Pandralisk are being hateful towards certain groups of people. What you
need to realise is that all these groups are finding in fault with each other on a daily basis. This has been going on since the stone age, like at the time that the movie 300 resembles. Everyone to this day ever since several thousands of years ago are going at it tremendously over this religion is right, this religion is wrong. How I see it is god created earth and then put humans on it to see how people survive on earth with the decisions that they make. He did not throw all of these different bibles on the ground in each region of the world to abide by. All of this religious stuff is going to far.

I honestly do not see Jack Thompson and Pandralisk go way to far because they do not leaves threats towards certain groups of people, call them very harsh names, and say that they need to be destroyed. They are just showing that they do not care about certain groups of people.

Really... What is the point? If Rockstar want to make there game and certain people want to play that game, then let them. Why do people feel the need to be constantly censoring everything we do, view and hear.

I'm under 18, but I will not be buying this game or even trying to play this game, because I do personally believe that parts of that game are sick and immoral. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to tell other people that they aren't allowed to do so. The CCFC are like media terrorists trying to push there beliefs on the public.

I say that it's about time that the public stand up and let the government know what we want. Gamers should unite against ignorant groups such as the CCFC.

@Pandralisk

Although I'm Christain myself (and rather easy-going with my beliefs at times), I don't find hateful as much as gravely misinformed. Normally, I could go on a LONG rant about how niave, igorant, and arrogant your comments comes across as being, but since everything as such has already been said, I'm going to ask that you please stop bringing religion into almost every topic an then telling us how much better we'd be without it. As has already been said, it's simply faith and someone could just as easily use the arguement that only those with faith can possibly understand it, but then that arguement would be painfully flawed and unsupported in the same way that your arguements are. Reciting the Bible is not supporting-evidence, as the Bible was written by men and, as such, was probably largely influenced by the ideas and culture at the time. Not to mention that, as with any religious text, it can be twisted fit any number of agendas.

I guess the suggestion that they actually changed the content of the game is too far fetched for them, however, back door conspiracies are just ripe enough for picking.

To Jack Thompson if one of these posters actually is: I love the notion that posting on a comment thread makes you a coward, esp. coming from a man who's gotten in trouble in the past for not being able to keep his paws off the "submit/send" button.

@VenomandCarnage

The following passages essentially say mankind has no freedom:
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Proverbs 14:12) "Lean not unto thine own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5) "Bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." (II Corinthians 10:5)

@ kincyr

It may be interpreted(sp?) to say that we have no freedom, but it says nothing to suppport the belief that we hate it.

Jack Thompson: "Oh, and I have a couple of tricks up my sleeve for the ESRB on this. Stay tuned. Is this a great country or what?"

Yeah. I love this country. We have our ups and downs, our rampant consumerism, our roadblocks, our enemies of freedom (I'm not talking about terrorists ;]), but we always manage to pull through. Thank god we have a Bill of Rights to protect us from people like you, huh Mr. Thompson? I can relax while you spout infuriating rhetoric all day long because I know that you pose no real threat to anything.

EDIT: Rib BONE. Sorry for the vagueness there.

@GoodRobotUs

"There’s no such country, religion, race or creed as ‘Moron’. I’ve met Christians, Muslims and Atheists who have all been bigoted, idiotic, self-important idiots, not because they were Christian or Muslim or Atheist, but because they were bigoted, idiotic fools."

As an old saying in martial arts goes:

There is no such thing as a bad art, only a bad student.

If you guys can remember who said that, do let me know

Heh don't you people know that the federal government has _better things to do_ than to bother with a silly little kiddie video game? you're wasting your time. plus this game looks boring as all hell, I wouldn't bother playing it even if you could chop off mario's head in it. good luck wasting your time lol.

[...] ESRB defended the revision of Rockstar’s Manhunt 2 rating against the vitriol of watchdog group Campaign for a Commercial-Free Childhood. [Editor’s Note: Campaign for a Commercial-Free Childhood… Are they serious?] [...]