August 29, 2007
Yesterday, GamePolitics reported on Georgia Tech professor Ian Bogost's call for the Big Three console makes to reverse their current policies and permit Adults Only (AO) rated games to run on their systems.Perhaps surprisingly, State Senator Leland Yee (D), a frequent critic of the video game industry, agees with Bogost's position. GP heard last night from Adam Keigwin, one of Yee's top aides:
Senator Yee would agree with Ian Bogost that the consoles should allow play of AO rated games. The parental controls are necessary however. Dr. Yee has always said that the industry has a right to make extremely violent games and to sell them to adults.
His issue has consistently been about protecting children and eliminating their access to the most violent games without their parents' knowledge.
Another problem with this whole ratings mess is that the ESRB just refuses to use the AO rating for violence despite the descriptor calling for such a rating when there are "graphic depictions of violence." If Manhunt doesn't qualify, what would?
Combined with the use of the ambiguous term "Mature," many parents are left with a false sense of how violent an M-rated game may be; and obviously even some retailers as the FTC study suggests.
Comments
I'm just confused. I don't know what to believe anymore.
Also, typo on 'agees' there.
Forgive me dennis, for I don't mean to offend but.
WHAT THE FUCK!!!!?
Ok, now that I got that out, the guy who passed a law against the industry now says the industry can make any game it wants?
Can we say double talk?
Or is he perhaps wising up and thinking it might be better in the long run to not fight a hopeless battle and instead work with the industry?
Only time WILL TELL!!
"The parental controls are necessary however."
He did... I don't know where to start. How about the most obvious place... There ARE PARENTAL CONTROLS ON THE NEXT GEN CONSOLES ALREADY! THE CONSOLE MAKERS ARE ALREADY DOING THE MAXIMUM EFFORT POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO KEEP KIDS FROM PLAYING M RATED GAMES!
OK, I'm much better now...
May i state my reaction this way?
ZOMGWTFHAX.
He's right about one thing. Console companies should allow AO rated games to play on them. However, it is still the decision of the company what they will license to play on their system. Maybe if there were a large demand for AO rated content on the consoles they would change their minds.
I do disagree with his assessment that the M rating in inconsistent. It's no more inconsistent than the MPAA's R rating. Even if they are 'inconsistent', who cares. They are intended as a general guideline, not a fact. You are supposed to infer what to expect based on it. Some M rated games maybe more violent or graphic than others just like some R rated movies maybe more violent or graphic than others. If the ESRB feels like "Manhunt 2" deserves a M rating, who is he to disagree?
Oh. And. He agrees with us!? WTF?
I'd rather know what's going on personally.. Did he just say he isn't the enemy?
Forgive me dennis, for I don’t mean to offend but.
WHAT THE FUCK!!!!?
Ok, now that I got that out, the guy who passed a law against the industry now says the industry can make any game it wants?
Can we say double talk?
Or is he perhaps wising up and thinking it might be better in the long run to not fight a hopeless battle and instead work with the industry?
Only time WILL TELL!!"
Lmao man i've missed yuki's posts..there always good in the morning
It's the same kind of argument where "certain individuals" say "I support Freedom of Speech, I'm only trying to 'protect the children'" then celebrate when a game is effectively banned in and out of the US as well as threaten to have police storm into a place of business and remove materials from shelves, thereby ALSO banning that product from being sold to ANYONE.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Did the world go crazy all the sudden?
Or did my mother slip drugs into my coffee? Again?
shame we never heard more on that one
Why isn't he demanding that retailers adhere to the MPAA rating?
Is he going to cover up such answers with the idiotic "movies aren't interactive"? After all, we bloody well know that non-interactive news media has aided in numerous individuals becoming angry and/or frustrated with some news reports thereby leading some to become aggresive and some of those to become violent. Indeed, even spectators at sporting events who do not actively participate in the sport have been known to become deadly violent. So the comparison of non-interactive fictional movies vs interactive fictional video games is quite appropriate.
And we really don't want to go down that road with "educational" material, including religion, do we?
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
because movies are ok since they arent watched by children ;)
Of course, I would like it to be true, and I'd believe it. When he first made a voice appearance on G4, he was very respect and polite of games and gamer culture. His intentions seem good, even though his methods seem flawed.
My 11 year old son knows the... uh, what's it called? The "jump rope rhyme" for Freddy Kruger. He also LOVES the Terminator series (although he has a problem with the temporal mechanics of it). :)
And if Senator Yee or you-know-who is reading this, -I- know my son far better than anyone else. I know his limitations, his dislikes and likes, those things which upset him, anger him, frustrate him. -I- am his Parent. If some other Parents wants their Parental Rights revoked and turned over to Senator Yee, you-know-who, any other individual, organization, and/or government entity, that's THEIR business. Keep your filthy, dishonorable, unethical, mitts off MY Parental Rights. Dictate your personal, religious, and/or political beliefs to YOUR OWN family and LEAVE MINE ALONE!
Sorry, Duffy, I get carried away sometimes. :)
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
all it basically was is jack went on and on about how we may as well give him our address's now because he made it so the police could confiscate copies of gta san andreas from anyone at all regardless of age and sent dennis some paper or something like t hat..
it ended up being crap but its jt so its normal bs
Man i miss doing duffy rants! i just dont wanna annoy anyone since i know i use to be real bad about my rants
The problem is that everybody attempts to be "the right one" in this case, with everybody blindly agreeing with the "right one" that stands out the most. I have a question to pose to everyone who stands behind the outspoken but misguided watchdog groups:
Would you, as a parent, actually play a game yourself to see what it's content is really like?
If the answer is "no," then they have 0% of an idea of what they're talking about, and are lazy enough to the point that they'd let their kid buy an M-rated game just for the sake of having a scapegoat. Even the U.S senators are getting tired of this mindless argument where nothing but misinformation is spread among the watchdog groups, which serve nothing but to point out every exploit that bolsters their flawed cause.
What should always be done is both a psychiatric evaluation of your child after getting the game and a playthrough of the game yourself. Even if you entirely suck at playing the game, just looking at it will help. Be sure to remind your child, also, that when he\she plays the game, that it is not real in any way, that he\she should not go about trying to do what happens in a video game in real life.
actully parent your child!!!
Parent your child? What is this nonsense you speak of?
Hey, I've never read a "duffy rant." I'm almost curious as to what it entails. You've mentioned them a few times so methinks that you're tempted to do one soon.
LoL you can ask some of the old people here about that like nightwing or yuki...
And yea a duffy rant may come soon depending on how stupid the story is...its getting close though
Translation: The next time we have a Thompson related story.
The EXACT same crap these hate groups (oh yes) are doing would go on if AO games were published for consoles.
By the way- What is the magical thing that happens to people when they turn 18? Is the time between 17 & 18 some kind of magic time where people get some kind of revelation of maturity?
Translation: The next time we have a Thompson related story"
Lol i will try not to make it a thompson story but no promises
:D
It's far more entertaining, direct, and blunt than a long winded "Winger Post".
:D
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
yea my duffy rants are good..
"...2morrow or thursday ..."
Tomorrow IS Thursday.
:O
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
-Nightwng2000
...did you seriously just equate Jack Thompson to Voldemort?
I am laughing SO hard right now. It's on the inside since I'm in the office, but that totally made my morning ^_^
which is a lot for me since i usually only drink 3
Um, it did. Then they edited out the more extreme stuff, and toned it down enough to get an "M".
Did you rant this much about Saw III not getting an NC-17? Sheesh.
Grow the fck up people.
I am sorry the only issues with M17+ in the public are that politicizations want to puff them selfs up and distract from the issue and say that the problem is ambiguous and must be fix to save the lives of children, when all they are doing to gathering votes from the anal cavities of the gullible and easy swayed.
we need a solid R level in the ESRB R waffes from mid PG13 to lite NC17 we need a solid and effective change in the ESRB and for ocne its a simple one.
T15+ would be the new breeding ground of lite R and harder than PG13 titles and it dose not carry the M "stigma" and prehaps can let M17+ be a true R level and not the mix and match it has become.
Come to the forums and share your thoughts!
http://www.gamepoliticsforums.com/showthread.php?p=49482#post49482
I think, perhaps, a revamp of the obviously flawed ESRB may be in order. Not to have them forcibly release how they arrive at a decision, but rather make the ratings clearer, and get rid of the useless 1 year difference between M and AO. As I've said elsewhere, perhaps a rating system based on actual ages (eg, 12+, 15+, 18+, such as the also flawed BBFC).
And if you don't think that the ESRB is flawed, having a game rated AO being essentially a kiss of death isn't a good system. Perhaps, as has been mentioned here before, an X rating for actual porn games.
I think we can work with this guy, and hope he, and others, feel the same.
Guh, it feels wierd defending someone I considered "the enemy" until this morning.
Heh, quite frankly, "you-know-who", aka "he-who-should-not-be-named-in-OT", doesn't actually debate anything anyone says, and really doesn't read other people's comments. Usually, if he does, he just ignores it, throws out a bit of written verbal abuse having nothing to do with the comment, and then throws out his own Press Release, brags about having been on TV about using, abusing, misinforming, and exploiting the tragedies of other individuals, families, and communites to push his own personal, religious, and/or political agenda on others.
Since Yee is the focus, I figured not inciting you-know-who's name was reasonable. We know who I was referring to and my comparison to them about their desire to dictate their personal, religious, and/or political beliefs on others remains. yet, no need to call on him unless absolutely necessary. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Depends on my mood. :)
Still, glad I could brighten your day. :)
Now, if only I could get out of the left side periodontal cleaning scheduled for tomorrow...
Nightwng2000
NW2K software
While I understand and even support the idea of creating a separate "Porn game" rating, I DO NOT blame the ESRB for the "kiss of death" that a AO rating has become. That fault lies with the console makers and the retailers. Blaming it on the ESRB feels like scapegoating. Though we could probably come up with a better classification than "Adults Only." It really does bring up images of pornography.
I hear if you look in the mirror, say his name three times, and spin around till you're dizzy, you can see his face in the mirror.
Also, it helps to be drunk. It did for me anyway. :)
Oh, I think he's still the enemy. His stance on everything else hasn't changed; and as Raum pointed out earlier:
"Yee’s doing something smart for once. He knows that AO games can’t be sold to minors, so he wants Manhunt 2 to be released AO so kids can’t get it anywhere near as easily."
Now, I think the ESRB is doing what it's supposed to, and meeting with a reasonable level of success. However, I also agree that a more finely-tuned rating system would be a great idea.
E - everyone
12+ - PG (roughly)
15+ - PG-13 (roughly)
18+ - R (roughly)
21:V - NC-17 (Violence)
21:S - NC-17 (Sexual Content)
Card for those ages for any game of that rating. Have it come up automatically on the register's computer when the game is scanned, for all I care. I do agree that retailers should be taking the rating system, and game sales, VERY seriously.
Unfortunately, no matter how much we say that the responsibility lies with the retailers and the parents (and I place a TON of the responsibility on those two parties), the fact of the matter is that kids CAN get access to this stuff without parental knowledge.
I've been trying to figure out this particular situation for a couple days now. A family has 2 children, a 10 year old and a 17 year old. The 17 year old buys a copy of Manhunt 2 and brings it home.
The 10 year old now has access to an M rated game. The retailers did not sell it to a minor, the parents did not buy it for their underage child, but he has access to it. The parents may not even know it's there. And if they do, what do they do about it? Lock it up when they aren't home? Put parental controls on the console so that the 17 year old can't play it? That situation is unlikely to make anyone involved happy. The other option is to place their trust in the 17 year old by giving only him the parental control code.
Another issue is that by saying the parents are responsible for raising their own children, we're saying that they're responsible for raising all the children that THEIR children bring home to play. You may be the best parent in the world, but what happens when your child goes home after school to another parent's home and plays the M-rated game that they unthinkingly gave to THEIR son or daughter?
Don't get me wrong, I still attribute about 90% of the responsibility of minor exposure to violent video games with the parents and retailers, but these hypotheticals have me stumped at the moment.
Ambiguous term? Oy. Okay let me break it down nice and simple: Parents shouldn't fucking even consider or look in the direction of an M rated game for little Billy at all for any reason, end of story!
So I suggest that if Mature is too ambiguous that it be replaced with: "Don't buy this for your kid jackass!"
Ambiguous term? Oy. Okay let me break it down nice and simple: Parents shouldn’t fucking even consider or look in the direction of an M rated game for little Billy at all for any reason, end of story!
And if "little Billy" is 15?
Anyways, this is a little surprising, but it does make some sense. Console makers allowing the AO rating would help open the way for the AO rating to be used more often. In which case games that got an AO rating might actually be released as such rather than cut juuuust enough that they could get an M rating.
having him agree on the AO topic does help to push the dialgoue along.
"Another issue is that by saying the parents are responsible for raising their own children, we’re saying that they’re responsible for raising all the children that THEIR children bring home to play. You may be the best parent in the world, but what happens when your child goes home after school to another parent’s home and plays the M-rated game that they unthinkingly gave to THEIR son or daughter?"
No rating system in the world can stop that though. Which is why any ratings are only as good as the parental guidance behind them. What if your kid went to his friends' house, and found his 21-year old brother's stack of Playboys? Or grabbed "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" from the entertainment unit to watch?
Parental responsibility extends to know and talking about what your kid does outside the home. Just assuming the rest of the world is a fluffy sheltered world is just as bad. Talk to your kids' friends parents, invite them over for coffee. Ask them about stuff like media policies. Ask that they respect your concerns over content.
Most parents are pretty reasonable when it comes to that. You're not telling them how to raise their kids, you're just asking that they respect the way you raise yours...
And finally, accept that no matter how much of a sheltered bubble you put your child in, something somewhere will expose them to something you disapprove of. It happens, deal with it... unless you want to become a control freak...
The simple fact is that the game WAS rated AO, though no fault of either the ESRB OR Yee, consoles won't sell AO games, so the game was edited down. I think, at the very least until its release, there's no point anyone rating Manhunt 2 except the ratings board.