October 22, 2007 -
What's good for the cinematic goose is not, apparently, okay for the video game gander.As reported by the Daily Mail, the British Board of Film Classification, which assigns video game ratings in the U.K., has adopted a hands-off approach to movie violence.
That's of interest to GamePolitics readers because it was the BBFC which banned Manhunt 2 in June. The organization refused to lift the ban earlier this month, even after developer Rockstar submitted an edited version of the game. The revisions earned Manhunt 2 a marketable M-rating (17+) in the United States.
From the Daily Mail:
The controversy was triggered by the board's decision to approve the ultra-violent film Eastern Promises (pic at left) without any cuts.
The 18-certificate movie, which is released this week, includes graphic scenes of throatslitting, child prostitution and a man having an eye gouged out.
A spokesman for the board said it was up to adults to decide what they wanted to watch and that movie-goers were free to look away from the screen.
Given that the BBFC removed those choices from adults in the Manhunt 2 situation, a BBFC spokesman rather ironically told the newspaper:
The BBFC provides clear consumer advice. If the board went about cutting out every scene liable to offend then we would be leaving adults without any choice. Who's to decide what adults can or can't watch?
However, the BBFC can apparently decide what adults can or cannot play...
Comments
Deadwood was shown on British TV and definitely had fairly graphic throat-slitting and one instance of a man having his eye pulled out, so with regards to the violence it's hard to see how this film could be much worse, at least assuming that quote highlights the worst scenes.
Of course, that doesn't go anyway to lessening the apparent double standard with regards to games.
What DavCube was saying is that Dennis has verified that the Jack that posted above is the Real Jack. JAck has told Dennis as much and Dennis now uses the IP address of those posts to compare to all new Jack posts. This way Dennis can delete the fake Jacks, without worrying about Jack complaining that he is being censored.
But I agree that it is pointless to refute his as he will not confirm anything in anyway. But there are times where it is necessary to refute the most blatant libel.
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
OK Game Devs
Random Tower
If anybody in the UK wants to avoid another Manhunt 2 style refusal to give a certification then they should talk to their MP and try to get the VRA amended, and don't couch it in terms of, "the BBFC should not be able to ban games," because that not really what they're doing. Far better to argue that the certification system should be altered to allow a certificate to be issued for any work (excluding works which are illegal such as child pornography or snuff movies or wahtever), and to compel the BBFC to issue a certificate for any submitted work.
I'm sure there's a serious dialouge in this somewhere, but we'll never find it now that JT has gotten first post. :(
Manhunt 2 isn't banned in this country. Stop saying that. It has been refused classification, which prohibits its sale. Its banned from SALE. Not from ownership, which can be solved with a flight to Amsterdam.
The Daily Mail.
Jesus, these people put Jackie Boy to shame... Yet you report it like its fact?
Seriously. They are terribly sensationalist and rarely do a story without it being a "Little Englander" style suggesting that the world is doomed to failure.
This is the newspaper that reported that the EU were to remove the bends out of our bananas (a lie)... A paper that supported Nazism and Fascism.
I'd recommend reading the Wikipedia article before taking the Daily Mail as any bastion of credible news journalism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail
I'll bet that if you met the Director of the BBFC, and challenged him to explain the classification of Eastern Promises, he wouldn't hesitate to explain it to you. He'd explain how the BBFC cannot dictate what adults can and cannot view. Then, if you followed that up with a challenge to explain the refusal to rate Manhunt 2, he'd be dumbfounded and completely unable to make a statement that didn't complete contradict his previous one.
@ Paul Kerton
Can you purchase Manhunt 2 at the mall? GameStop? Your local Wal-mart? No? Well, I'd call THAT a ban on the game.
As I've said before, what use is a ratings board that cannot rate material? If it fails at its one and only responsibility, what use is it? And don't compare the BBFC to the ESRB. The ESRB never refuses to assign a rating. If the rating is not marketable, that's not their fault.
Right up until I saw Viggo's penis.
@Jack
Goddamn, you have more motions than a cheap whore does tricks. You're just delaying the inevitable, and once that comes to pass you'll be disbarred, while we dance in our circles singing ding-dong, the jackass is dead.
My advice? Get it over with Jack.
@everyone else
Yeah, the ESRB is better than the BBFC. Deal with it. At least we'll rate it, instead of banning it.
This kind of hypocrisy is common to the newest media on the block, and always has been, though. It's really not that shocking. Truthfully, I think the thing that finally seals the deal on video games as a culture medium will be the Next Big Thing coming along for people to freak out over.
After all, how much mainstream kvetching is there these days over Heavy Metal Music, or Elvis' hips, or television?
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2007/04/marketingviolence.shtm
As that link clearly shows the industry that is unable to abide by its age policy IS the movie industry. As in that study children were able to buy an R rated game 71% of the time, compared to only 42% of the time with an M rated game.
So with that in mind which industry needs pressure put upon it again?
A valid point which Thompson has continually overlooked, and will continue to.
Why?
Because this isn't about doing the right thing, the good thing, or what's best for society.
It's a personal vendetta between him and[R*] videogames.
So he can let a thing like this go, but god forbid somebody buy GTA.
It's been said that referring to oneself in the third person is a sign of brain damage and/or insanity, Jack... might want to stop doing that.
Yes, and the REASON for the difference, since Dennis McCauley is unable to read, apparently, what the BBFC said previously, is that Manhunt 2’s availability on Wii makes it a true murder simulator that obviously children will play.
Dennis is right. By that logic banning on the PS3/Xbox makes no sense, since those don't allow you 'practice' the moves required to kill your opponents.
And JT, you seem to be pulling facts out of your ass. The BBFC said no such thing about the availability on the Wii being a reason why they banned the game. The cutscenes were more than enough to offend their sensibilities apparently.
Any more gay porn in this one?
There is no conspiracy here.
I'll bet you dennis was right, there's a racy pic of dumbledore in it this time! =p
Hate the arseholes. Went to see a movie when this whole bother started, and wanted to boo the bbfc screen just before the movie started, but everyone was cheering the movie was starting so I didn't want everyone thinking I was booing the movie.
I call bullsh-t or just plain stupidity on your part. If you were the "long time reader" you claim to be, you wouldn't have needed the IP explanation you were politely provided with.
@ JT
Breaking news! The sky is STILL blue!
@ people bitching about the source
I'm not going to defend the general integrity of the Daily Mail. However, as much spin as they may put on something, is the most important base fact about this story true? Did the BBFC really give a lesser rating to Eastern Promises, and were those quotes from the original article accurate? If so, then it doesn't matter how deplorable the source is. It's not the Daily Mail who should be on trial here, it's the BBFC.
He's a loser. He abuses his child by making him go into stores to buy detrimental games, therefore commiting child abuse. I feel so sorry for his child, but if he does it to his own child, imagine how little he REALLY cares about the video games industry!
No no. He feeds himself. So it really doesn't matter. The very fact we EXIST is his feed; and if we didn't, he'd probably go after something else.
You beat me to it, the source doesn't matter so long as the core facts are true facts.
@JT
200 motions eh? Still nothing going through it seems though. If the third time's not a charm maybe the 300th time is? If so you're most of the way there, though given your history and insanity I doubt you'll make it there before everyone gets fed up with you and smacks you down in court so hard you'll never make it back inside a court room ever again. You remind me of a quote I once heard about a rat trapped in a sinking vessel, enjoy your way down since you're never gonna make it back up.
Gore, blood, and violence, those are okay, it's just a horror flick. Or maybe it's a war story. Ship it!
But put in just one swear word? Oh man, NC-17 all over the place, and you'll still get vocal opposition.
So reprehensible violence is okay so long as you don't swear while doing it.
It just occurred to me that the reason for this disparity is that parents hear their kids swear, and have to have someone to blame. Although we all know we learned those words from our "friends" at school. They can't see that, so they choose a more visible victim.
I think games are receiving the forefront of this same blight; you don't go to a theatre to play your violent games. Well, actually, you do, you go to an arcade to play your ultraviolent, horror-flick style, side scroller fighters with blood and gore, and no one complains about those. Everyone complains about the games the parents buy.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
I don't read the comments too often anymore, mostly because they say the same thing over and over again, and I, being the long-time reader that I am, have seen just about every response before. Quit flaunting your e-penis and stop being so damned butthurt :3
If his statement was accurate then the BBFC really can't decide what its own job is.
Oh, and just to chime in with some agreement: When you're reading the Daily Mail, take everything with a pinch of salt. Salt that is not imported from Europe where they kidnap British kids and inject it into their eyes.
@ Jack
Nobody cares anymore, you have nothing new to say: "protect teh childrens, but only from them evil vidjagames". This is obvious by your attempt to derail the topic.
Oh, yeah, and injustice, etc, etc.
Movies are the only thing that have given me a "rush" due to violent content. Hence, I have zero interest in horror movies.
JT has been "unbanned" for some time now. He managed to get around the ban by using a different IP address and Dennis has seen no real reson to ban him yet. JT hasn't been as much of a jerk as he was on LiveJournal.
@ Zerodash
I believe that is the whole point to the British study done recently. The fact that you are disconnected from the game through the controller and that the violence is obviously fake leads to fewer people being affected by it.
With movies, the violence is more graphic and you simply sit back and soak it all in. This affects the viewer more as there is nothing to disconnect you from it.
It the whole "uncanny valley" thing.
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
OK Game Devs
Random Tower
And this is the Mail ffs, this is not relevant to anyone, least of all GP.
I agree with you, mostly. If the BBFC considers Eastern Promises and decides that it's violent and overall unpleasant but suitable for public consumption, then so be it. If they consider Manhunt 2 and decide that it's violent and unpleasant and unfit for public consumption, then so be it also. I do support the idea that the BBFC can refuse a rating for things that go too far - the paedophile sim being a classic example. Maybe Manhunt 2 just does go too far, much further than a few scenes of gore in a film.
However, the spokesperson's comment is a cause for concern. If he's reading from the official handbook, then why can't he say "play" as well as "watch"? The official statement has to be either that the BBFC *can* say that some media is not for sale, or that it *can't*.
岩「…I can see why Hasselbeck's worried about fake guns killing fake people. afterall, she's a fake journalist on a fake news channel」
That or he thinks he is the King of England or something, next you know he will say 'We' in the place of I. At least a monarch has a reason for it, as it is assumed that they speak for the country, and not just themself.
Shows you how desperate Jack is for attention, posting 'news' in a blog comment. Kinda like the puppy that craps in your shoes because you didn't play with it enough.
The movie in question has pedophillic hookers, and the BBFC passed it.
In your opinion.
"And stop the bs about “let adults choose”
No. If Brits are happy with their rights being infringed more (or actually less) power to them. But myself I have to declare NIMBY.
"Dont make me get my “paedophile simulator” example out."
Which one? There are so many japanese dating simulators with underage looking girls its really hard to keep track of them all.
A paedophile sim is a very different thing to just something with a paedophile in it. And do you mean "underage hookers"?
NIMBY doesn't apply unless it's IYBY. And those Japanese dating sims aren't rated by the BBFC. I doubt they would all be passed if they were.
Yes, but I am allowed to have an opinion on it.
Just like when all the Brits comment on all of the US rulings, which make up about 90% of Gamepolitics coverage. But when Americans comment on British politics then suddenly we should "mind our own business?" Bullshit.
Of course he would want that, he's a lawyer. (not a very good one, mind you but one nonetheless... must've been the Florida bar's millionth customer or something.)
@Waffles:
Yeah, now you're getting the idea!
@Hank:
Yeah I *think* I remember you from those days.
"Really, you people put way too much effort into your posts while refuting his points AGAIN and AGAIN. It gets OLD."
Especially considering he doesn't f***ing read them. (Or he does, but simply refuses to acknowledge them.)
@EZK:
So basically it's not so much for JT but for the benefit of those that don't know any better?
@Phantom:
Well we're all refreshing GP waiting for the 'Jack Thompson DISBARRED!' story to show up, so we're even, I guess. :P
@dannah:
nekowolf's right, it doesn't particually matter what we do, we'll still have to hear him (Hopefully when his big hearing comes around in December he'll be neutered of his law license, and we'll have to get together and send a gigantic 'thank you' card (and basket of muffins ;)) to the Florida bar. :P)
@HCF:
Thread over, you won (and Jack didn't.)