October 29, 2007
On the eve of its release, the New York Times takes a look at the controversy surrounding Rockstar's Manhunt 2. NYT video game scribe Seth Schiesel writes in today's edition:It is clear by now that violence in video games is thought more pernicious than comparable violence in more traditional media. Just look at coverage of Halo... often described as a “violent space epic” ...But when was the last time “Star Wars” was described as George Lucas’s “violent space movie”?
Good point. Schiesel spent time at Rockstar's New York offices on Friday and was given a preview look at Manhunt 2, which will hit stores on Wednesday - Halloween, not coincidentally.
The redacted version coming to market this week with a rating of M for Mature (meant for ages 17 and older) seems to retain at least 99 percent of the original content. One scene that depicted a pair of pliers being applied to male genitalia has been cut...
Manhunt 2... is no more violent than so-called torture porn films like the “Hostel” and “Saw” film series... in the United States the Manhunt contretemps has probably been good for the industry, as it has allowed the [ESRB] ...to demonstrate they can stand up to major publishers.
Certainly the controversy has been good for Rockstar... Manhunt 2 has received free publicity and media attention it would have never enjoyed were it not for the presumably unwitting complicity of the ratings boards and self-appointed media watchdogs.
Rockstar VP Jeronimo Barrera told Schiesel:
The most important thing is that we weren’t going to cut the story, and we needed to keep the vibe, the mood, of the game intact. Absolutely, though, there is some frustration because we wouldn’t have to put up with this if we were working in another media like movies or graphic novels...
Comments
JT says: See I told you they didn't change anything!
I say: Cue Thompson's crazy barely thought through response in 10, 9, 8....
prediction:
" 99% isn't very much of a change. Thanks for making my day, Dennis, Sweetie ;) "
In honor of our soldiers, I will not use the last part of most of these posts.
If manhunt was indeed a movie...they would of never had this kind of controversy.
I think that the console makers banning AO games is a form of censorship and any kind of censorship sets a bad precedent. Right now publishers are afraid to push the envelope of Mature themes and content because they know it won't get licensed. I don't like that AT ALL. It gives all of the anti-gaming crowds out there a weapon -- try to get a game rated AO or say that it has AO content and you convince the public that it is so graphic and horrible that not even the console makers will allow it on their systems.
There has been alot of talk recently about having the uncut Manhunt 2 for the PC since so many people would be willing to buy it.
I have a feeling that Manhunt 2 will be available on the Xbox 360 at least a half year later since this is such a big title after what was going on. I think that when all of this nonsense cools down that alot of the censoring would be out of the possible Xbox 360 version.
Why not? The Xbox 360 has so many very bloody games that have some violent images that are worse than alot of the kills in Manhunt 2.
I have nothing wrong with the extreme violence because there has not been any hard evidence of games causing violence.
If our right to play a certain video game is taken away just because of the strong violence, then what other rights will be taken away from us to the point where there is no free America?
As long as we have the M rating for violent video games, then we should be able to play whatever we want if we are the legal age.
amen to that. stupid social hypocrisy...
"If our right to play a certain video game is taken away just because of the strong violence, then what other rights will be taken away from us to the point where there is no free America?"
Exactly. Perfectly stated.
Depends entirely on what was in that 1% of the game. I highly doubt that they took one, contiguous per cent of the content and nixed it. They combed through and pulled out precisely the things that were bumping it past the M rating, and left absolutely everything else intact.
Remember, ratings are based on the worst particular bit of content in the game (or movie). All it takes is one swear, one nude scene, one toe over the line to earn the rating.
Lots of 1% changes in films have meant they have been allowed through. Pulp fiction had to re-edit the scene with the heroin needly injection or it wouldn't have been accepted by the BBFC for instance. Minor I know, but it failed on 1 point, they changed it, resubmitted and then said "yup that's fine now".
I gave the BBFC the benefit of the doubt over Manhunt 2 when the first ban struck. I even suggested calling off the dogs when the 2nd ban was handed out, butthe reasons that were given by the BBFC for that 2nd ban don't seem to be very solid, and could indeed be a kneejerk reaction or buckling to pressure. "General feel of the game" is a specific enough reason to ban it IMHO. Just because one person or group of persons are creeped out or disgusted by something doesn't mean it should be removed from view. I was hoping for something much more specific and maybe even a list of things to change for R* in order to obtain a rating.
Having looked at videos of the kills and gotten a taste of the overall mood of the game, I agree that both are darker and more gruesome than any other game I've ever played...except for the first Manhunt. That game's kills were just as brutal (Ex. the "baseball bat" kill) and its story isn't excatly cheerful either. Despite that, Manhunt made it through the ESRB and BBFC and got an M and 18+ (respectively) with no problems.
This is the part that bothers me. Does the BBFC have no concept of precident? Slapping a game with a unworkable rating because of one violent act that "goes too far" is one thing (this almost happened to The Punisher). However, essentially banning a game (by which I mean, it cannot be sold in any store, which constitutes a ban in my eyes) because "No, you can't have this story arc" or "No, the mood of the piece needs to be changed" or "No, you can't have this message in your game/book/movie" is far worse. And it WILL set a precident on the storytelling of games. I mean, just how is a developer supposed to avoid a rating refusal based on something as vauge as "bleakness and callousness of tone"? We've seen it affect Condemned 2, who knows how far it will go?
People can say that I'm defending a "piece of trash" or whatever. However, this isn't just about one game. This is about drawing arbitary lines on things as ambiguous as context and mood. This is about not allowing games to tackle themes several movies and books have. This is about inconsistency in rating games. This is why I utterly, completely oppose the BBFCs move to indirectly block this game from release in its country.
Manhunt 2… is no more violent than so-called torture porn films like the “Hostel” and “Saw” film series…
OMG, he "gets" it. That rare amongst mass media types...
Not quite. JT's definitely not liberal, and is about as "Religious Right" as they come. He's homophobic and wants to maintain the old status quo of societal standards.
You are defending a piece of trash. However it should get defended out of principle.
Banning (it is as close as it can get to one in the UK) something for the message that it expresses is something that should get the BBFC disbanded (I exagerate, it should get disciplined) for abuse of their position. The reason is not the banning but the fact that that very banning isn't "protection" but downright censorship.
I wonder about what we should think of censors (and wanabe censors, like watchdog groups) that happen to attack the very basis of a state. (Free speech in the US, it kind of is in the UK too but is taken less seriously).
I am not saying they are "traitors" (or anything like that, I hope that someone gets my point), merely that, well, they don't behave in a responsible way and annyway, they have a right to want that free speech down, they just don't have the right to have it go down.
...or clearly harmful; but since games are neither, well, your point still stands.
Maybe seeing it in print in this particular newspaper will thaw the frozen wastes of brain cells in the heads of some more of the people who jump on the blame bandwagons without reason or understanding.
That "piece of trash" took a bunch of people tons of time and money to make, just to watch it get shot down. Show some respect.
However, the fact that they did cut parts to meet the M rating to me says that they just want to make the game, rather than make some political statement. Yes, the game is dark and twisted, but no more so than some of the films that have come out in recent years. If anything, I think it shows a minor flaw in the ratings system that it and Halo are rated the same even though they are light day and night, comparatively.
"Trashy" things always take time and effort by people- episodes of Jerry Springer, Ed Wood films, porno flicks, etc.
this is the only thing that really pissed me off. THEY CHANGED THE GAME. IT"S NOT THE SAME. HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT WAS IN THE FIRST VERSION?
You have a point there. But why is this a "piece of trash" when it is just a video game. You kill people like other video games. Guns, gore, etc. You still play as a killer. What about GTA? Even Duke Nukem 3D back in the day had guns, gore, cussing, even strippers that flashed you when you payed them money. That was only M, and everybody loved it. So why is this a "piece of trash"?
@ Jack "Attention Whore" Thompson
I know you are looking at this. Don't even try anything with this.
At least the first one had the interesting concept that you were being forced to commit the acts you did. Take that away and the only justification for the sickening violence disappears too. Im guessing that the first one was allowed through because the BBFC are liberal enough to have seen it as an art peice with enough of a story twist to make the gruesomeness somewhat permisable. Its purely a guess on my part, but i'd imagine when they saw the second one, they just didnt see anything other than a sickening gorefest.
um since I'm not aware of any short hand for MS that does not mean microsoft you'r forgive me if I'm slightly confused. Manhunt 2 is not coming out on any MS console, but may be coming out on PC. So I' don't really get your comment.
Softy! Hahahaha!!!!!!!!!! JK!
Good lord... As a male who is looking forward to this game, I have to admit I'm rather glad they've chosen to remove that aspect. It's painful enough to simply imagine such an action taking place.
Technically, the difference between an M and AO rating is that you have to wait a mere 12 extra months to go out and buy it. On the surface, it shouldn't affect sales dramatically, but in reality the game industry sees the AO rating as a death sentence for their game.
I think it was actually better in the old days where publishers just marked unofficial ratings saying "for adults only", and those games didn't get affected in marketing that badly.
1) As far as gameplay goes, it is average.
2) As far as "torture pr0n" goes, I still hate it. (Gimme Fight Club any day).
3) As far as graphics go, I ain't a "graphx R all!1!" type but in "torture pr0n", they'd better be good. Reseach shows they ain't.
4) "Come on Rockstar, you can do better than that!"
5) I still feel their marketting model needs to meet the bussness end of a balistic missile, in the rectum.
6) It goes only on shock value.
And lastly, I have seen things which have taken a lot of dedication stay pieces of trash.
You should pick a name so we all know who you are! You look like a random guest like that.
Not everything torture is torture pr0n.
I like scary games. Silent Hill, Silent Hill 2, and Manhunt have all freaked me out to the point where I could not play them alone. Something that powerful is not 'trash'.
Can't wait to get my hands on this game! I might have to get the PSP and PS2 version so I can play when I am out in the woods camping and get totally freaked out!
Hostel being torture porn, yes. Saw, no. Saw is quality cinema (that happens to use a lot of red in it's color pallete :))
I was talking more about Hilary and her think against the 1st admenment.
This country has serious issues with it's media Hypocrisy. There really is not difference between Manhunt and horror-gore movies.
They said the kills was really censored to the point were you cant really enjoy alot of them.
I think that Jack Thompson and those groups need to shut up and back off our right to play what we want.
I want to play Manhunt 2 as it was meant to be.