"I’m just waiting for someone to kill someone because of this game . . ."

Like a vulture. Carrion feeders and lawyer have a ton in common, it seems.

( GP: Actually, that was posted by a faux Jack, now deleted and IP-banned… )

Yee, your bill failed because it was unconstitutionally vauge and because games have been established to be free speech. No hack for any game will change that.

But by all means, whine about it constantly every time a video game makes it on the news.

I think we should all write a letter to the Senator and any other advocate group, explaining to them the difficulty of getting this hack to work. We should also explain how the hack works on a more technical basis.

From everyone of their statements, it seems like they are associating this hack with the Hot Coffee mod. They seem to think that it's really easy to do and that a simple program will automatically unlock the partial AO content.

Maybe we can write one letter and then all of us can sign it.

Let's indulge him in case it is the true Jack Thompson. Jacky boy how long do you think it will "for someone to kill because of this game". After all these years there is no one yet that killed someone else because of the original Manhunt. Are you still waiting for your new Columbine because of Bully? Games don't make kids murderers, there are lot of other problems that society chooses to ignore but you know it's easier to blame games than to face the truth about your world.

@ApokalypseNow:

Slow typer is slow. Really though, I think your explanation was less convoluted and venomous than mine. I'm just pissed about being told to go home from work early because of waiting for another developer to check-in his source code, bah. I think the beer lends the venom.

/rant, again

What needs to be done is some one needs to take a PSP to Yee, and ask him to get access to that content. Watch him squirm since he will have to modify the PSP itself (thus voiding the warranty). Basically if Yee can't do it, then he shouldn't be allowed to complain about it.

christ, what part of UNAUTHORIZED do these people not understand, if your child goes out of there to obtain a hacked copy of manhunt 2 in order to play banned content, they have made a decision to access it, it's not something Rockstar flew "under the radar".

Maybe people should stop worrying about video games, and try to stop under aged kids from getting their hands on cigarettes, booze and drugs.

Yep, and lets get Marlboro to stop selling cigs to kids. oh wait, they don't, they manufacture them. Shops sell, publishers publish and developers develop. So why punish those that don't break the law. I see now, you are a politician who won't understand this simple premise, the shops sell the game. If a kid buys it, the shop is at fault, not the publisher or developer.

M doesnt equal children.


Oh and lets rewrite something -
"I am hopeful that the courts will see that severe penalties are necessary for those who sell horrifically violent games to minors."

"I am hopeful that the courts will see that severe penalties are necessary for those who sell horrifically violent movies to minors."

Would never happen, would it?

"Time and time again, the ESRB rating process fails parents. It is unconscionable that the rating board would downgrade Manhunt 2’s rating from AO to M and therefore make the game available to children."

If it was Adults Only it wouldn't be available to anyone at all. I guess that's how he likes it. The onlyway a child is going to get a hold of this game is if their parents buy it for them. END OF STORY. Explain to me how a twelve year old is going to be running around a game store unsupervised with sixty dollars to spend. And how is this kid going to hide the game from his parents forever? Do his parents leave him locked up in his room all day without seeing what he's doing? You can'T save kids from awful parents.

And while they're at it... Barbie should be rated AO. I saw someone draw nipples and pubic hair on her once.

Do these people know ANYTHING about coding? They must not.

Oh joy another moron making frothy baby bathwater smoothies out of logic....

It will help for archive purposes if I post the real link:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/11/02

@ Joseph4th

Gilmore Girls was canceled in May, though the reruns still air on ABC Family.

Now as for the poor man's Beat Takeshi, Leland Pee:

Not only should the AO (Adults Only) rating immediately be reinstated on [Manhunt 2], the Federal Trade Commission should investigate Rockstar and the ESRB to determine how this was allowed to happen again.

Not happening, since Rockstar/Take-Two followed ESRB rules this time and disclosed everything, especially since they edited the game after it was given the AO rating. And if the FTC investigated, their hands would be tied, since Rockstar/Take-Two did nothing wrong.

Time and time again, the ESRB rating process fails parents. It is unconscionable that the rating board would downgrade Manhunt 2’s rating from AO to M and therefore make the game available to children. The ESRB and Rockstar continuously put profits before children.

Completely False. It is unconscionable, though, for Yee to vote against a bill that would banned harmful materials(like lead paint, etc.) in children's toys before all that stuff with Chinese-made toys happened. So Yee has no credibility when talking about "profits before children".

Parents deserve to know what, if any, content was truly removed to receive the downgraded rating. ESRB has refused to publicly disclose whether or not Rockstar divulged that such adult content could still be accessible. As if we needed more evidence, this episode further puts into question the validity of the entire rating system.

If that's the case, they should also know what was removed from Saw IV, Hostel Part II, or Rob Zombie's Halloween remake to receive an R rating from the MPAA. The ESRB is not bound by law to publicly disclose that information, since the MPAA doesn't have to either. But then again, since Yee accepts campaign contributions from the MPAA, he doesn't have the testicular fortitude to ask the same thing of the movie industry, the hypocrite. So the validity of the ESRB is hardly in question.

The Manhunt 2 scandal further demonstrates the need for [California’s contested video game] law. I am hopeful that the courts will see that severe penalties are necessary for those who sell horrifically violent games to minors.

Sure, whine about your "law" in which the real reason it got passed was because an Assemblyman that initially voted against the bill was illegally substituted for another who voted for it. The same "law" that would eventually after almost two years be ruled unconstitutional.

Grow up and get a life, Yee.

If the ESRB re-rates the game, then it would set a new precident: software ratings just don't work.

Think about it.

The very nature of releasing software into the public means that SOMEONE WILL ALWAYS HACK/EXPLOIT IT. That is a FACT. Any game can be hacked to add or remove any content the hacker wants- a gay-porn Mario game is relatively easy to make.

This is similar to someone filming their own porn scenes and editing it into The Wizard of Oz. The only difference is that making/obtaining hacks is much easier to do than making film clips from scratch.

The only way to appease these people is TO RATE EVERY SINGLE GAME "AO" simply because someone can hack it into a violent porn.

You know, as much as I dislike Leland Yee, I still have considerably more respect for him than JT and would take him over JT any day. At least he can conduct himself in a civil manner and not insult those who disagree with him.

Anyway, no the ESRB is NOT broken. It works. As others have said, everything was done according to the rules; Rockstar and Take Two admitted the content when they submitted it, the ESRB knew about it, eveything followed procedure. When the news came out, Take two and Staruss Zelnick admitted it right away much to their credit. Compare that with their response during Paul Eibler's regime, which was none at all.

Unfortunately since Yee is a senator now, I wouldn't be surprised now to see him introduce legislation similar to Brownback's Truth in Video Game Ratings in the wake of this. :(

I'd really like to hear what Patricia Vance and Mike Gallagher have to say about all this. I hope they mount a spirited defense.

Ah, screw all of this! I've got to get ready for the expo tomorrow. I don't have time to waste on this and it's only just bringing me down.

I'm so sick of hearing about the children... damn the children!

Dear Knuckleheads: Yee has now said publicly what I said here yesterday, and which you didn't comprehend because your brains are game-fried. Get this, if you can:

John B. Thompson, Attorney at Law
1172 S. Dixie Hwy., Suite 111
Coral Gables, Florida 33146

November 2, 2007

Lydia B. Parnes
Director, Bureau of Consumer Protection
Keith Fentonmiller, Senior Attorney
Federal Trade Commission
600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. Via Fax to 202-326-3799

Re: Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc's Latest

Dear Director Parnes and Mr. Fentonmiller:

In light of the 2006 Consent Decree between Take-Two and the Federal Trade Commission which prohibits Take-Two from leaving hidden material in its video games sold to an unsuspecting public, please note the below Associated Press story of today:

Hackers Unlock Extra Violence in Game
By PETER SVENSSON – 9 hours ago
NEW YORK (AP) — Hackers have unlocked violent content that was censored by the publisher of the game "Manhunt 2" to give it a marketable rating, the company confirmed Thursday.
The game, initially given an "Adults Only" rating by the Entertainment Software Rating Board, went on sale in the U.S. on Wednesday with a "Mature" rating, after being modified. Most stores refuse to carry "Adults Only" games; Mature means a game is intended for player 17 or older.
Game publisher Take-Two Interactive Software Inc. and the studio that designed the game, Rockstar Games, have long been at the center of the debate over video game violence and children.
Two years ago, a hacker uncovered a hidden sex scene in their game "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas."
In "Manhunt 2," the player takes the role of a man who escapes from an insane asylum and goes on a killing spree.
Take-Two edited parts of the game, including blurring some of the most gruesome killing scenes, to get the less restrictive rating.
Hackers defeated that blurring on the version of the game for Sony Corp.'s PlayStation Portable. The game is also available for the PlayStation 2 and Nintendo Wii systems, and those versions do not appear to have been hacked.
The hack does not roll back all the changes that enabled the game to qualify for the "Mature" rating, and it requires some technical expertise and a PSP unit that is itself hacked to accept modified software.
But Common Sense Media, a San Francisco nonprofit that advises parents about entertainment that may be inappropriate for children, Thursday asked the Federal Trade Commission to look into the ratings process, now funded and governed by an industry association. The process lacks basic transparency, Common Sense Media CEO James Steyer said in a statement.
"We believe that families and all consumers should have an assurance from game publishers and the game ratings board that the content being advertised is the same as the content being sold," Steyer said.
In the Grand Theft Auto incident, the ratings board changed the game's rating from "Mature" to "Adults Only" and retailers pulled it off shelves.
Since then, the board has required that publishers submit even hidden content for review, and Take-Two spokesman Ed Nebb said the publisher had followed that requirement for "Manhunt 2."
It is unclear whether the private, nonprofit ratings board considered the hidden material in assigning the "M" rating to "Manhunt 2."
Board spokesman Eliot Mizrachi said only that it is aware of the hacking issue and is looking into it.
Both the revised and original versions of "Manhunt 2" were banned by the American ratings board's British counterpart.
"I stand behind the game and the ESRB ratings process," Take-Two Chairman Strauss Zelnick said in a statement. "It is unfortunately the case that no one in the entertainment software industry is immune from hacking. We hope that consumers will not engage in hacking or download illegally modified copies of our games."
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jpQ_GJJuBYfnoVDvsl3urbnEJThgD8SL6STO2
I encourage the FTC to fully investigate this matter and then consider assessing the remedy set forth in the 2006 FTC/Take-Two Consent Decree: A fine of $11,000 for each unit sold with the hidden content. If only three million units of Manhunt 2 are sold, that would constitute a fine of $33 billion. Obviously, the ESRB, with or without Take-Two’s approval should immediately recall all units of Manhunt 2, as was done with GTA: San Andreas in 2005.

Such a fine would send a message to the rest of the industry, including the complicit ESRB, which either knew or should have known what was going on here. This is Hot Coffee Redux, only worse, on the ESRB’s watch. The ESRB, of course, is owned and operated by the video game industry. There has never been a worse example in American commerce of the fox guarding the hens. The ESRB’s Patricia Vance should be indicted.

Finally, please be advised that this week I have received written threats from Take-Two’s law firm and lobbyist on Capitol Hill, Blank Rome, threatening me with legal mayhem if I continue to tell the truth about what Take-Two is doing. These threats may constitute a criminal act by Take-Two and by its lawyers. The federal government, including the FTC, should consider them to be an attempt to intimidate the undersigned whistleblower. I have alerted the US Attorney for the Southern District of Florida to this fact, and I am also sending this letter to Congressman Upton who helped secure the 2005 Resolution by the House of Representatives, passed by a vote of 355-21, condemning this out-of-control porn-to-teens company.

Regards, Jack Thompson

Copies: Congressman Upton
Common Sense Media
US Attorney Alex Acosta
US District Court Judge Adalberto Jordan, Case No. 07-21256

It is so sad that no matter what we say on here, It will never be read by and have an impact on the people that need to hear it.

So let me get this straight. If I ran up and pantsed Mr.Lee at one of his press conferences, he would be the one getting in trouble for public nudity (by his logic) right?

I'm sure I could find worse of whatever vice you want to talk about on Cable..

Drugs, Sex, Violence...

I think I'm losing confidence that the human race can survive, when our "leaders" are ignorant fools.

Will everyone please stop voting for these morons? How does this keep happening?

Zachary,
I'll admit that there are some who merely stray from the path of the Force just a tiny bit. :) Sadly, as with many in various professions, they are overwhelmed by the sensationalism and negativity that is the Dark Side.

One such person is Julia Boseman. Now, it is true that she has a video game bill. Even John Bruce has claimed that he penned it (at least the one from last year, not sure if the one this year is the same one, and when does he NOT claim having something to do with a video game bill?).

But, as an observer here in NC, I notice that she isn't shouting to the tops of the rafters all sorts of ignorant nonsense like so many others. Nor is she trying to push this bill ahead of other important bills. This is the second year this bill was attempted. Last year, it didn't make it all the way through because time ran out for it. I'm hoping the same will happen this year. I don't agree with everything she supports, but she is reasonable enough to know there are far more important issues to deal with. And she's already made certain comments about other bills having to do with the movie industry here in NC for me to believe a decent, intelligent letter to her may actually make her waver on the video game bill.

There are reasonable politicians. Sadly, as with lawyers, judges, even school authority figures, the bad ones get all the press and create negative stereotypes for the overall professions. Yee, Burrell, and others fall into those stereotypes and give the profession a bad name. I wish there were more good folks out there getting the attention, getting MORE attention than the bads ones. Unfortunately, society LOVES the bad guy more than the good guy. Which explains why the "Anti-Hero" is so popular in various media formats I guess. :) Pah! Couch Potato Psychological babbling ranting! :)

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

I would like to use this moment to announce I have uncovered a secret gay sex scene between Dumbledore and Snape in the most recent Harry Potter book. From what I can tell, JK Rowling originally wanted this to be in book, but was forced to cut it for censorship reasons. However I have discovered that the original scene is still there! Clearly we need to have all Harry Potter books recalled!

Take the first word from page one, the 17th word from page 2, the.....

Which parents are allowing their children to play a game like Manhunt 2 in the first place?

I live in California. It shames me to be in any geographic region NEAR this idiot. Soon as Yee's up for reelection, I'm telling everyone I know to vote him out. STOP PISSING AWAY MY TAX MONEY, ASSHOLE.

@ Nightwing

Yeah, I love to generalize. :) I am like the media that way, yet I jest.

Here in OK, my local Representative is avutally pretty decent. We have sent a couple of emails back and forth a few issues and I feel comfortable talking to him and know that I will get a personal response. My local Senator has yet to even send me a form letter back. SO I will not be voting for him next time around. I don't completely agree with the stands of my local Rep, but at least he takes the time to listen and respond.

I haven't really tried to contact my National Rep and Sens yet. One of my Senators (Imhofe) is actually pretty good. He has been there for a while and is even in trouble with certain envirnomental groups :) My parent like him and from what they have said, he is pretty in touch with the people.

So yeah, not all politicians are bad but the bad ones get all the attention. :( I wish that would change, but the state of the media won't allow it.

Who honestly thinks that a 17 year-old is still a child? They can see an R-rated move by themselves, so why is this a controversy?

I just don't know what's wrong with these people. I think they must have the IQ of a couch cushion.

@War Otter

Then let's go out and go something about it

I don't have much respect for Yee. Oh, sure he's not the most vocal asinine critic, but he's still very unreasonable and ignorant. I can't support an AO rating on a game just because someone CAN hack it for objectable content if they know how to do that. Nevermind that hacking software instantly voids the warranty. Nevermind that the vast majority of children (even a large number of adults for that matter) won't be able to hack the game without assistance. Nevermind that unless the parents are blind they can easily prevent their child from playing or sneaking in this game. Never mind common sense, Freedom of Speech, or personal responsibility.

And who buys a PSP for a child, anyway? It's far to expensive to just give to an eight year old.

@ Yuki

Damn, you. You beat me to the George Carlin quote.
You shall rue this day! Go on. Start Ruing!

@general531

It's true, I use to regularly point that out about Yee in every story involving him, but after awhile stopped. He's just another prostitute in the whore house that is US politics.

I am listening to Rush's 2112. A song about a post Armegedon Orwellian society in which the governing body chooses what technology and entertainment the people can have. In this one of the citizens finds and old guitar and take it to the Priests and shows them what it can do. They then belittle him and smash the guitar and send him on his way. The man then realizes that he cannot live in this society and commits suicide.

This society is what people like Yee, JT, the PTC, and the CSM want. They don't want free expression but controlled expression.

@Retrogamer:
It's not that I am disappointed or critical of our opinions and comments in here, but there are in our society huge sets of roadblocks to disseminating the truth amongst those that refuse to hear it.

I just don't understand the problem people have with the expression of violence. Violence has been a corner stone of the human condition since the dawn of time. While I am not a violent person and I believe peace is essntial to civilization, I have no problem with violence, nor am I one to shy away from being violent when it suits me (self defense, etc. (Not just beating someone up to take their lunch money)). To deny our violent sides is to deny a natural expression of anger or fear, which are electrical and chemical responses in the brain. Granted, violence CAN and does have a negative impact on society, especially when used in excessive quantities by governments; but we must learn to accept the fact that we exist in a constant balancing act between violence and peace. Peace can only exist as a counter weight to violence.

Anyway, though I have already started rambling...

I think it is dangerous to deny the expression and art of the violent nature of humans. They say these games are wrecking society, but they are merely a facet or our collective experience. Yes some games are extreme, but so is the kidnapping and raping of children and then forcing them to become child soldiers in Darfur, yet these people who spend so much time decrying games couldn't care less about REAL atrocities occurring every day around the world.

So... sorry I am rambling again, I'll stop now.

I just got off the phone with the point man at the FTC who enforces the Consent Decree against Take-Two.

Take-Two is in BIG trouble.

Awesome, is California going to get a PSP Manhunt 2 law now?

As a few people in the breakout story said, it's going to be media sensationalism that ultimately messes up everything. Rockstar and the ESRB have done nothing wrong. Unfortunately, we have enough foot-stomping, screaming, braying anti-game jackasses to make up an army, who understand nothing about how these things work, or hacking, or boolean variables, or anything. The whole thing will be blown out of proportion by these people.

yeah, cause you know those children, their smart little hackers. Seriously though, do these guys use common sense? What kind of kid is going to know how to hack the game in the first place? Honestly.

Boy, if ever there were a forest missed because of all those damnable trees, it would have to be this Manhunt2 fiasco.

@ E. Zachary Knight

While I've not heard that song, I have read plenty of books along those lines (1984, Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451). Its those reasons that I absolutely do not accept any level or form of censorship. In my book, soon as you argue for censorship, your argument is void. Afterall, if we allow the government to censor this or that today, how do we know they won't censor your statement tomorrow?

@ Yuki

Primary Lotus? You think you can pull that off before I hit you with my Rasengun?

@ WarOtter

Excellent point. Violence is merely a natural reaction to certain stimuli. When you or someone you wish to protect are in danger, violence is a natural, and sometimes necessary, reaction. Without violence peace has no meaning. There is no Yin without Yang.

I know that not all violence is a reaction to a threat to one's life, but it can be. It's the same principle as a knife. Knife's are intended for use as a tool. Yes, they can be abused and are, but that doesn't make the knife bad. Just the person who abused the knife.

People like Leland Yee who have no idea what the fuck they're talking about shouldn't be allowed to talk about games.

you know this same thing happend to comic books if i recal right parents thought they would make kids more violent but our society seems to be fine because they grew up

@ DCOW

Already linked.

"Parents deserve to know what, if any, content was truly removed to receive the downgraded rating. ESRB has refused to publicly disclose whether or not Rockstar divulged that such adult content could still be accessible."


Actually Yee, parents need to know whether their little felons are illegally modifying their game systems.

Just why is no one bringing any grief against the hackers?

My dear god people, it's a fucking .ini configuration file. It's not Hot Coffee. It's a filter rendered over the already-rendered killscenes to make them less...well shit, I don't know what it was supposed to do, but the filter annoys the shit out of me, and looking through the files on the PS2 disc, I also came across the LVLSETUP.INI (GLVLSETUP is on PSP, then each level has their own LVLSETUP file; on PS2, it's just one file) and started playing with the options, and figured this out. Of course I have no problem doing this, but I highly, HIGHLY doubt a child (which all of you watchdog morons howl about protecting) knows how to edit an ISO image, rebuild it keeping the LBA intact, and then upload it to his PS2's hard drive like I did.

Either way you look at it, JT, Yee, all of them, are doing one of two things:

1.) Not fully understanding what this "hack" (using the term loosely, very) does, and why it is NOT like Hot Coffee, so they are howling and bitching.

2.) Fully understand what this "hack" does, and still calling it Hot Coffee to push their own agenda.

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt on issues like this, because I can't expect them to be as tech-savvy as I, but I'm ungodly sick of hearing about this particular issue.

R* DID NOTHING WRONG.
T2 DID NOTHING WRONG.
ESRB DID NOTHING WRONG.

Show me a game that can't be hacked, and I'll show you a game not worth playing.

By the way, editing the same configuration file, you can also remove the film-grain post-processing filter too.

omfg hawt cawfeez

This should be final nail in the coffin for the, "Yee is a reasonable guy," crowd. The forked-tongue, snake-oil salesman has shown his hand to gamers once again.

You have to mod chip your PSP, right? While not being illegal, it certainly goes beyond anything the ESRB or TTWO could reasonably prohibit. The 'blame' is on the consumer here, meaning that if your kid mods this game to get one section of AO content (first off, kudos to being tech-savvy), the kid is the one at fault.

Parents need to be aware of the possibilty of this type of modding being out there. There are countless nude-mods, blood-mods, etc. Yet instead of trying to inform and advise parents, Yee (being the consummate politician) decides to go after the big-bad game industry. Who, by an 'un-related' chance, didn't contribute to Yee's campaign. Guess who did? The movie industry. Where's the call to arms over SawIV? I know for a fact that a group of 14-15 year old kids went and saw that opening night with no parents present - why don't you fight that, too, Yee? Because you don't care about 'protecting kids' you worthless excuse for a 'child-psychologist.'

Get some more votes by pretending to protect the kiddies, asshat.

Or maybe they think that the M stands for "Meant For Children"

@E. Zachary Knight
I think the logic being used is:

1. AO = Adults Only, meaning NOT for Children.
2. Not AO = For Children.

I guess if Hackers defaced Leland Yee's web page, he'd have to call for the dismantling of the California Senate, and also the Internet.

Hypocritical Idiot.

@E. Zachary Knight

lol. Unfortunately, people like Lee need to understand that AO = censored and unpurchasable through retail, regardless of age, M = not for children,

@ Xlorep

Yet AO should not mean censored or unpurchasable. It should be a viable rating. If so, we would not have a quarter the controversy than we have now.

@Mel:

AO isn't entirely pointless. With no AO, self-serving politicians couldn't...

God, I'm going to work. This whole post makes me want to punch Yee in the face.

I want to smack some people at the ESRB. Why didn't they have a quote ready? Never mind M2, they should have one ready to go whenever a game is hacked like this.

"The ESRB does not condone the use of technology to illegally modify games or consoles, an action prohibited by publishers and manufacturers. The ESRB does not have jurisdiction over games that have been modified without the publisher's consent."

I just don't get the rockstar defence going on here.

Presumably when the ESRB first gave the AO rating they said "get rid of all these scenes to get an M rating", Rockstar say "sure", but instead put some crappy, easy to bypass, filter on them instead of removing those scenes.

Of course the "M rating means it's for kids" position that Yee is taking is nonsense, but at the end of the day Rockstar has screwed up again.

I am confused,

how would the california game law change the outcome of this? The product would still have been hacked and would still not be intended for play by children... aside from giving fines to retailers for selling the game what woudl it have done?

I didn't know there were state and federal senators. I only knew that states had 2 senators and then house reps.

He won't change his mind, but changing M to 18+ just makes things a bit cleaner. The one year different between the M and AO ratings is pointless. I have the same issue with the NR rating for movies.

I don't know that I would classify Yee as uber liberal. Maybe just uber delusional and misguided.

"Excellent. Rockstar has yet again lied to the parents of America"

Proof please


"and are encouraging kids to train to brutally murder others with their murder simulator."

Proof please.

It is interesting that the ESRB hasn't even stood by their re-rating. I wonder if they're distancing themselves from R*. Why step in to save the day when you could let them get raked over the coals a few days? Honestly, until someone actually levels charges against the ESRB, they have no reason to get involved, and may even be acting in the rest of the industry's best interests if they allow public shamings to dismantle R* permanently.

I mean honestly; most of the GTA clones are better written and smoother playing than GTA ever was. And MH2? They're only selling copies *because* of this controversy. I wouldn't mourn if they just went away.

@ Mel

Each state has their own government. Yee is a member of Califonia's government. The two senators you are refering to are for the USA's government. Yee has no authority outside of California.

@ John Bruce

I pictured Mr. Burns from the Simpsons when I read that.

@Gordon Jackson

If the ESRB said "Remove the kills or it keeps the AO" (i.e., remove code) and R* just added a filter (i.e., added code), the ESRB would not have approved the M rating. We may thus assume that the ESRB said "Obscure the kills," which R* complied with.

It appears that several kills were removed entirely from the game, as those have not reappeared online in hacked versions of the game. Those are likely the ones that the ESRB said needed to be removed.

Given that the level of filtering varies across the consoles (apparently the PSP has the least filtering), it's entirely possible that R* wasn't asked to filter the scenes but did it just in case the actual cuts weren't enough.

Even if the ESRB said "filter the scenes," there still isn't anything to nail R* with. R* filtered the scenes in a way that prevents the originals from being accessed without illegal modification of a console and the software.

Legally, their asses are covered.

Alright I am beginning to suspect that this is not the real John Bruce. Not tht I really had any doubts to begin with.

Wow, Jt is advocating someone to commit murder so he can further his extremist cause and deepen his pockets. Talk about a bloodlust.

Terrorist do the same thing. Advocate murder in the name of their causes. Next thing you know Jack will be wearing suicide belts when he suggests someone kill for his cause.

You have lost it JT, but you are a non factor so its amusing.

I bet FOX News would love to see that comment. "Anti-gaming lawyer advocating murders to punish ESRB"

@jack thompson, attorney

Thank you for the public admission that you pray for these games to lead to killings. This means you really are a hearse chaser huh? If that is the real you by the way.

"Rockstar has lied to America again just as they did with Grand Theft Auto San Andreas."

Proof please.

Rockstar specifically stated they placed graphical filters over the killing scenes which were left in the game. The hackers, through ILLEGAL, methods removed these filters. Where did Rockstar lie?

"I’m just waiting for someone to kill someone because of this game, and I’ll be all over that case."

( GP: Actually, that was posted by a faux Jack, now deleted and IP-banned… )

You have yet to prove to link any murder to any video game. What makes you think that you are going to be able to link any murder to this game? And what makes you think that even if people killed other people because of a video game that the scenes being in a different color would have prevented said killing?

"You just wait. The ESRB is a broken system and Rockstar and the ESRB care more about training an army of killers than protecting our society from these potheads."

Senseless conjecture and ad hominim attacks. Barely worth responding to.

"Live in ignorance, jackasses. Readjust your bong."

We are the one responding with facts and logic, you are doing nothing more than proving your luddite level of misunderstanding of the technology involved here. So if we are all potheads it would likely do well for you to be able to put up an argument that we, the pot heads, cannot poke holes in in a hot second.

Lets see how far you get with suing Rockstar with that settlement already in place.... oh wait did you forget about that?

Seems the only one advocating violence is you sir, everyone else seems to have a level head around here and most of us have no interest in this game, what we do care about however is free speech, which you and Mr. Yee seem to want to crush beneath your boots of oppression.

"Parents deserve to know what, if any, content was truly removed to receive the downgraded rating."

Castration and decapitation to start with. But that requires actual research instead of fear mongering.

Never mind that this isn't a matter of unlocking locked out content not revealed to the ESRB, but is a matter of uncensoring content that that the ESRB was well aware of and still willing to give an M rating to the game. Or that the only thing there's a pattern of on R*'s part is of using common coding practices.

Then there's the fact that ultimately the tone and content can't be worse than the Saw series of films.

I could go on, but this is a molehill, so I really don't feel like waste much energy upon it.

King James-in agreement with you, uber conservatives AND uber liberals are of the same fanatical belief system. I'm not trying to show preference here.

Mel, "uber liberal" basically is someone who pushes a liberal agenda-HARD. Yee drafts a LOT of laws-govermnent do this, government do that, blah, blah, blah. Yee is really a proponent of big government services, and he's very close to San Francisco of course, which partially explains his background. The "nanny state" concept is basically the same thing-people don't think for themselves, so the government is the "village that raises the child." There are more people in the area he is from that believes things he believes, even if they are not factually true or constitutionally correct.

If you know the details surrounding Yee's background, understanding his illogical, civilized trolling, is far easier to comprehend. He's still wrong on multiple counts, but he won't be changing his tune, or perspectives of warped reality.

This is proof that JBT causes more copycats than games ever could. If it weren't for JBT we would not have these fake John Bruces

Yet again, until you can prove anything you actually say, you're the fool. Please readjust the stick in your ass.

Why doesn't the esrb or take two etc sue this guy or other advocacy groups or JT when they make bold claims that are completely 100% untrue. They are not stating things as opinions but rather as fact. Isn't that slander/libel(depending on the form)?

I kind of wish we could get an automatic and authentic "This is really Jack Thompson" mark every time he posts just so we know which crazy comments are really his. One fake comment can cause a flood of lengthy responses.

@ Weighted Companion Cube

I doubt it is the real John Bruce. His commetns are not inline with the real one. But in the first comment, he opened with "Excelent" and I pictured Mr. Burns doing his little finger clasp while saying it.

Anybody know of any information relating to contacting Yee? I want to have a discussion with him. I'm probably being quite naive right now, as there's probably no way for any of us to truly have a chat with our ELECTED representatives, but hey, this is America, that means that I'm allowed to THINK that our Government works.

/rant

Seriously though, any ideas?

Dennis McCauley is allowing someone to post using my name. I didn't post many of the above including this ridiculous one:

jack thompson, attorney Says:

November 2nd, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Ignorant fools. Rockstar has lied to America again just as they did with Grand Theft Auto San Andreas. I’m just waiting for someone to kill someone because of this game, and I’ll be all over that case. You just wait. The ESRB is a broken system and Rockstar and the ESRB care more about training an army of killers than protecting our society from these potheads.

GP: I have just returned from a trip moments ago. I’m not sitting by my PC all day, you understand.

As I always do, I will delete and ban faux Jack posters.

However, as I have advised you on a number of occasions, you could totally ameliorate this situation by registering at GP.  For reasons known only to yourself, however, you choose not to do so.

Guys, more than one of the Jack Thompson replies are not actually from him. If he'd actually wise up and create an account, he wouldn't have this problem.

@Fellenone

It is not that simple. The hack in question here is about removing a blurriness filter over a rendered scene, causing a clear image to be shown. The clear image MUST BE RENDERED in order for the blur to be put in place over it, there is no way that a computer can create a blurred image without first having a clear one to work on.

In conclusion, this hack is not adding anything back in - it is in fact REMOVING a layer of rendering.

@Fallenone

The hackers did not come across any hidden files or code as in the Hot Coffee debacle. Go to the grocery store and pick up some colored seran wrap. Now place this seran wrap over your television screen. Now what exactly of the content does the seran wrap change? Now remove the seran wrap from your television screen, that is what the hackers did. They removed a digital version of colored seran wrap.

This is the same hack that just removes the filter, right?

NEWSFLASH!

Toyota manufactures cars that have brakes. The DMV (or whichever body it is that does these things in the US) tests cars to ensure they are roadworthy. These cars must have brakes in order to pass. Any vehicle owner can, with the right set of tools, remove the brakes from their car.

So if I buy Manhunt 2 and remove the screen filter (that blurs the image), Rockstar is responsible for allowing me to do that and the ESRB is covering up the fact that this can be done?

So if I buy a Toyota and take the brakes out (that lets me stop the car), Toyota are responsible for allowing me to do that and the DMV is covering up the fact that this can be done?

@DavCube:

Fake JT is using way too grammatical correctness to be the real JT.

@d.vel.oper

Ah, I know that feeling. The one that makes your temples throb and your vision go slightly red at the edges, yes? The alcohol actually helps with that one, as the anti-coagulant effects cause the blood to flow more freely through those vessels. The venom is simply a natural response to the redness and throbbing, and it takes a while for the liver to filter that out.

The distinction is between a game for 18 and up, vs a game that is for 17 and up. Oh please, think of the children! :P

God, okay, this is getting ridiculous. What Senator Censorship doesn't understand, is that if the game gets re-rated to AO, then it just got banned in the US. As an American, it is my right to decide for myself what is and what is not appropriate for me to watch and play. Do I think kids should play or buy this? No, but find a solution where I still can! I don't care if you don't like how violent the game is, its entirely MY decision for me and my family, and it is unconstitutional for it to get banned (which an AO rating does).

Facts are important! Here are a few you should know!

Fact: At the time of San Andreas’s rating, unplayable code was not considered pertinent!

Take-Two didn’t disclose Hot Coffee because it didn’t have to. Only after the fiasco did the ESRB decree that unplayable code must be disclosed.

Fact: There was no product recall on San Andreas!

The game was rerated AO. Rockstar sent AO stickers to retailers. It also stopped manufacturing the original version and came out with a new, M-rated, Hot Coffee free version. It also released a patch to un-Hot Coffify the PC version.

Fact: Take-Two was not fined over the Hot Coffee incident!

How could it be? It did nothing wrong!

Fact: No one condemned or wacked Take-Two with a 355-21 vote about Hot Coffee!

What the House of Reps actually voted 355-21 on was to request an investigation by the FTC as to whether or not Take Two intentionally misled the ESRB to gain an M rating instead of AO.

Fact: The FTC investigation did not result in a fine!

It will result in a fine if Take-Two engages in deceptive marketing practices in the future however, to the tune of $11k a game.

Fact: The current Manhunt 2 hack only removes the filters obscuring the stealth kills!

It doesn’t unlock hidden content, it only makes content that is already there clearer.

Fact: There is currently no evidence that there is any content hidden on the Manhunt 2 disc that the ESRB is not aware of!

Removed kills are probably not on the disc anymore and if they are, the ESRB likely already knows about them.

Andrew Eisen

@ Jack

And you've been nothing but a broken record. Shut it all ready for crying out loud. All you do is cry and cry for something that honestly wasn't in R* direct control. They could have had the US GOVERNMENT lock down the lines of code, and somebody would have found a way around it. Every car that is built has people upgrading it, every operating system for every computer has people cracking it open for both good and bad, websites get hacked every day. My own site was hacked at one point when a group dropped the server it was on and replaced it with a porn link. Are you going to try and say it was my fault it was there for that time, or even the fault of the provider because even though they did a great job, nobody and nothing can be absolutely perfect (except for you...you have BAT SHIT CRAZY down to a damn art form). MP3's came about because people hacked ways to turn audio into digital information, iphones where hacked for all kinds of purposes within days of coming out. It will never end because it is human nature to break and experiment on things. It's the only way I can explain how a monkey got a law degree. :)

@Andrew Eison

Thank you, and...

I'm wondering, if applying your tact to the agreement between Jack and TT: Would Jack now be in violation of that agreement?

@JT:

Hey, those written threats can't possibly any worse than the crap you send to T2 on a daily basis.

jds,

Thompson is only in violation of his agreement with Take-Two if he sues or threatens to sue to block a game release. Granted, there are a few other details but that's the gist of it.

The agreement does not, however, prevent Thompson from expressing his opinion.


Andrew Eisen

isnt the entire reason people can spoof JT's name is that he refuses to register? Sorry jacko but just because its your name dosnt mean you automaticaly have claim to it when you step into the interwebs. Nevermind your not evn the only Jack Thompson in existance... ah well.

@ BlackIce, NKVD Edition

I've already said it a bunch of times. Just the first time here :p

I've been supportive of Yee's efforts to question the ESRB, but clearly this man literally decides which side of the fence he wants to play on each time he issues a press release. At least Jack Thompson is consistant.

"The ESRB and Rockstar continuously put profits before children."

No wait, lemme narrow that down.

"profits before children."

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is not a new thing in "Corporate America". Toy companies, television networks, restaurants, everybody that markets to children is out to make money. If they were unable to make money of gullible children and their parents, our economy would be in pretty bad shape. It lives and breathes on the sales of video games, toys, and all kinds of useless junk especially during the Christmas season.

Now I work for a company that sells video games, and I will be the first person to tell you that kids are actually very much mindful of the ratings than you think. Often I will listen to kids police themselves on what games are appropriate for them before their parents say anything. That to me shows that parents are indeed infact using the ESRB system for what is in intended, and they are teaching their children what they can and cannot play. People like Yee and Thompson apparently don't go out and look at what's going on around them, they /assume/ that everyone will become killers when they play these games.

I don't feel like beating this arguement into the ground so I'll be frank, this "ohnoes think of the children" crap by lawmakers needs to stop. Politicians don't give a damn about children any more or less than retail companies, because one needs their parents to vote for them again, and the other needs their parents to buy shit from them.

@Luke J J

I think there's about 6 famous Jack Thompson's. Funnily enough, they're all wankers.

You know, when I look at that picture of Yee, I seem to think of Kim Jong II..

@ Delta

The problem with this game, is that Rockstar and T2 haven't really advertised their game on TV or anything as far as I know.

Like everyone else was saying, the media and Jack Thompson pretty much advertised the game for them. They should really find out how many kids are actually looking forward to buying Manhunt 2. That way, we can find out how many kids "may" buy the game. Yee and Jack assume way too much. And you know what they say about people who assume.

Nope, this one'll do for a week or two.

@ John Bruce

Yee's bill may have made it into law, but it was struck down in Federal Court as unconstitutional. That is where it failed.

Besides, you said it yourself that the bill was unconstitutional and would fail. But I guess that is only because you did not author it and could not claim any credit.

@matt

That post confused me. You're saying that people who sell M Games to Minors won't sell them this one?

"Maybe people should stop worrying about video games, and try to stop under aged kids from getting their hands on cigarettes, booze and drugs."

Exactly!

well i m being moderated. I am that offensive?

Ya....Little Timmy illegally modded his PSP, lets protect him!

:[.

I wish politicians really knew more about the circumstances in the videogame political climate before they come to decisions like this. Yee is actually not that bad of a critic, and seems to know more and care more than most politicians.

@JK

I for one haven't sold any copies of the game. Since it's release, I have seen maybe one sold in the days I've worked. I don't know the grand total, but we've sold way more copies of Guitar Hero 3 than any version of Manhunt. We also card anyone that looks underage when they attempt to buy M rated games, because we rather like our jobs.

Ideally, I would like to see all the MPAA, ESRB and other ratings board associations merge into one larger PRIVATE entity, so that there won't be any clear confusion about not rating all forms of media equally across the board.

Jack Thompson, you have a law degree and we don't. Why do you feel exempt from using ad hominem in your defence (Nizkor's Logical Fallacy #1)?

And your comment on our "game fried" brains makes me curious. Is this to say that no one, including yourself, is immune to the games' mesmerizing effects on people? If you were to play Manhunt 2 for a week, would you fall victim to a rise in aggression?

@ Aaron
Yeah, it is fun seeing "Massacre Chaser" Jack Thompson be the coward that he is("BAWWW T2 is trying to censor me, all of you guys go punish them for me so I don't get in trouble for breaking our agreement!!!", and trying to take credit for all of this.

I also want to say good job at ignoring this attention seeker(probably not intentional with how fast comments are going today) for a while, he always seems to do something even more stupid & outrageous when he feels ignored.

@ Jack
Guess I will feed the troll now that more people are....

I’m just waiting for someone to kill someone because of this game, and I’ll be all over that case.

( GP: Actually, that was posted by a faux Jack, now deleted and IP-banned... )
That reminds me, what video game related cases have you been on as of late? And don't bother saying the one you got kicked off of, or your nutty conspiracy theories like RICO with penny-arcade, kotaku, here, your neighbors' dog, etc.

You have said such things before, and I think I know why "such cases" refuse to have you represent or helping them... Because even they know your "video games made me do it" defense is a load of bull, and that only the insane would have you represent them.

Yet I think we should thank you, you have given us more proof that Jack "Massacre Chaser" Thompson is only in it for the cash and actively wishes for events like Columbine in order to further his personal agenda.

I find it really funny how someone who voted against banning harmful chemicals in children's toys is lecturing the video game industry how it puts profit before the well being of children. Where also does this idiot get that this game is being sold to children. It's easier for a kid to see Saw IV than it is to get this game. I'm 17 and I was carded for it at the same store that sold me Dementium without asking for I.D. That shows that even stores who don't have policies or don't enforce them are taking steps to make sure this isn't sold to children. Yee needs to get his head out of his ass and I don't know maybe focus on real issues like deadly chemicals in children's toys, something that he voted against.

@matthew

omg we have to stop yee before he kills someone !!

Let's see... Punish a company for making a game designed for Mature audiences... Make them responsible for what a child's parents do or don't do? it says on the box, M Mature... And also goes on to say Graphic Violence, strong sexual content and so on... see that, be a parent and say NO. OR get it for them because it will shut them up and you can focus on anything than actually BEING a parent.

If they ban companies from making mature games, parents will still buy violent movies for their kids... why? because it shuts them up and keeps them out of their hair. I think, instead of going after the companies that are NOT the babysitter, they should make tougher regulations on the PARENTS and force them to care about their kids and Pay attention to them. I think that leaving a kid alone with a TV show, movie or game does more damage than what is actually in said media. Parents need to be a little more involved and less complacent... plain and simple. IF they had kept the AO rating, the company would have probably sold it online where it is easier for kids to buy it.

Politicians, parents and religious fanatics need to pull their heads out of their respective asses, or each others, and realize that Parents just don't care nowadays. THAT is why we have all this violence and killing in schools... NOT games. Games being used as the child's only escape or only comfort? maybe. But, perhaps they can all do the world a favor and use the skills learned in game to kill their parents for abandoning them when they just needed someone to care and pay attention... maybe.

The funny thing is, those faux Jack posts sounded very similar to Jack. It's not like he ISN'T waiting for someone to kill somebody else so that he can blame Manhunt 2.

"It is unconscionable that the rating board would downgrade Manhunt 2’s rating from AO to M and therefore make the game available to children."

*headdesk* Retards!
*headdesk* Retards!
*headdesk* RETARDS!

M IS FOR MATURE, NOT FOR KIDS! SWEET ZOMBIE JESUS, GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT, PEOPLE!

[...] Here’s what California State Senator Leland Yee had to say: “Not only should the AO (Adults Only) rating immediately be reinstated on [Manhunt 2], the Federal Trade Commission should investigate Rockstar and the ESRB to determine how this was allowed to happen again. [...]