November 5, 2007 -
Jack Thompson at the Game Developers Conference?The Earth might spin off its axis...
But, fresh off of Saturday's appearance in Philadelphia, the controversial attorney claims that he has been invited to reprise his VGXPO debate at GDC, which takes place in February in San Jose.
The news comes from a motion filed by Thompson with the U.S. District Court in Florida, where the anti-game activist is suing the Florida Bar. While the document itself is little more than a legal maneuver, the following text caught GP's eye:
This past Saturday I journeyed to the Pennsylvania Convention Center and debated Lorne Lanning, an iconic figure in the video game industry, on the very issues that spawned the Blank Rome/Take-Two SLAPP Bar complaints against me. You can read all about the debate at http://www.gamepolitics.com/.
It appears I did very well, despite heavy security insisted upon by the event, not by me. I was invited, they said, into the “lions’ den.”
In the audience [for] this event, unbeknownst to me, was the man who organizes the largest video game gathering in the world, the Game Developers Conference (GDC), attended by 20,000 folks...
Because of the quality and coherence of my presentation, I was then asked by the GDC to reprise the Philadelphia debate, this time in February in San Francisco in a 5000 seat arena, as the keynote event.
GP: We haven't verified this with anyone connected with GDC as of yet, but we're working on it. Read Thompson's court filing here.
UPDATE: Contrary to what is written in Thompson's court filing, "the man who organizes" GDC, director Jamil Moledina, was not in attendance at VGXPO. Thompson is apparently referring to noted video game composer Tommy Tallarico, who is on the main advisory board of GDC. Tallarico was in attendance at VGXPO, but told GP he did not discuss the debate idea with Thompson personally (see below).
UPDATE 2: GP has just received this statement from the GDC's press representative:
"The Game Developers Conference has not extended an invitation to Jack Thompson to speak at GDC 2008," Jamil Moledina, executive director, Game Developers Conference, said. "We look forward to announcing the full speaker lineup closer to the show."
UPDATE 3: GP has just spoken with Tommy Tallarico about this confusing situation. Tommy, who has attended VGXPO for several years, said that he introduced himself to Jack Thompson before Saturday's debate.
After the [Moral Kombat] movie, I walked up to Jack Thompson and introduced myself... when I started talking to him, honestly, he was quite charming, it was a nice conversation...
After the debate Tallarico had dinner with Lorne Lanning and Spencer Halpin. They discussed the possibility of having a similar debate involving Thompson at GDC. Spencer Halpin's wife, an organizer of VGXPO, broached the possibility of a debate with Thompson by phone and Thompson expressed interest. Tallarico said that he never personally spoke to Thompson about the debate idea. He told GP that he planned to put the idea before the GDC board for consideration:
I was literally writing the e-mail to the advisory board when I got the call... [saying] go to GamePolitics... [where the story had already broken]...
GP: It is, perhaps, unfortunate, but given today's controversy it looks like any potential debate involving Thompson and GDC is a dead issue.
UPDATE 4: Thompson has posted a letter to GDC director Jamil Moledina which reads:
Since this is how the video game industry treats its critics, no wonder it has a public relations problem with parents. This is an industry that lies about the ratings on its products, sells those products to underage kids behind their parents’ backs, and then wants nothing but an incestuous gathering in San Francisco to congratulate itself on how smart it is.
Federal regulation of your industry is coming because you folks simply can’t figure out why parents don’t trust you. Fine. When the regulation comes, and it will, don’t blame me.
GP: In the end, one has to wonder exactly what Thompson hoped to accomplish here. Had the deal been finalized, the GDC event could have been fascinating for attendees and beneficial to Thompson in an image sense. Very little, if anything, was to be gained by adding the prospect of a GDC appearance to the U.S. District Court record, which publicly exposed it to media scrutiny.
Comments
I understand that position. I would not want anyone giving out my email willy nilly either. Unfortunately for him, I got his email from one of his public court filings.
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
OK Game Devs
Random Tower
I know that argument but when someone says that argument they're not really answering the question. I would like a real answer from JT:
Do you think it's allright for retailers to sell to anyone under 17 a R rated movie with no parents in sight?
Be a gent and tell us why too.
Just because one person defines something as not art, does not arbitrarily declare it not art to everyone else.
@Black Mantra: JT threatened to sue you? Yeah, I can see why you might not give him your name, not that I would either. Not like I wouldn't expect JT to not threaten to sue folks, or try anyways.
I just want to say how happy I am to see you being more civil in your responses as a whole -- I think it shows great improvement over some of your previous blatant insults. However, it still seems like you are lowering yourself to the lowest common denominator here on a number of your replies -- calling people idiots and creating straw men rather than addressing their points -- which kills health discussion, and breeds contempt for your position.
People can disagree and not get into a fight about it, I know you're capable of being rational, and It's really fun to read what you write when you're logically supporting your points, rather than insulting people. Clearly, the same standard aught to apply to EVERYONE, but you, should really try to set the tone rather than react to it.
Regarding the following statement, Mr. Thompson:
"Do you think retailers should sell alcohol, tobacco, and firearms to anyone of any age? If no, then why would you think that retailers should sell to anyone under 17 a Mature game, with no parent in sight?
That’s my only issue. Deal with that, and stop with the other stuff. "
The only problem with that position is that a game realistically falls into the same category as movies do -- there is no law preventing a 14 year old from buying media, just (usually) store policy. There ARE laws in place preventing the other things you mention, which makes it an unfair comparison.
Additionally, I don't see you rallying against movies, only games -- usually R* games (which DOES produce an absurd number of controversial games). Do you agree that the Saw films should also be banned from children under 18? I assert that Saw films are JUST as violent, if not more so, than Manhunt 2. Media is media. Why not rally against the concept rather than the media the snuff is delivered on?
Also related to media, Movies are allowed to be unrated, and are still available in stores -- while all major retailers refuse to carry unrated games. Do you think that the problem is with the ratings, as AO, which Manhunt 2 was originally given, equates to an effective ban? Do you think that AO should be a viable rating, and should be carried by retailers -- BUT enforced at the register? If so, then I think most of the GP readers would agree.
If time permits, I look forward to your response!
Best Regards,
Daniel V. Davidson
He responds with such disdain and hate. Not that the majority of gamers do not do the same thing, it is just that I expected more from a public/professional figure.
Of course that's what he thinks. You know how many times he's claimed gamers to be in a 'hyper reality' or 'virtual reality' when no console on the market has ever really ultilized such technology?
A sensor bar is nor virtual reality technology.
Besides, I'd much rather have someone under 21 or 18 get a copy of an M Rated game or R-Rated, hell XXX movie than a 12-pack or a pack of cigarettes or a gun.
The break down of the family unit or families where both the mother and father have to work (and sometimes more than one job for one or both) in order to make ends meet and the stress on a family caused by it is a much bigger problem than M Rated games getting in the hands of a "inappropriate" age group.
So he already gave out his email, willingly.
To my knowledge the effects of movies and passive media is studies with much less frequency.
That's because all the studies they did in the 70's were 'inconclusive'. And those included the long-term studies done. There were measurable effects on fitness and educational impact, but they were directly related to TV watching replacing playing and homework, rather than any direct impact themselves. ie if you got outside for a bit, and did your homework, then after that it didn't matter how much TV you watched.
"Dear Ms. Knight: I support parents’ rights, which is why they support me. Retailers should not sell Mature games to kids with no parents in sight. You don’t want a debate. You want to be “clever.” You failed on both counts."
I am a parent..and I have NO support for you at all. I like the ability to choose what, where, and how me and my family plays and watches. My oldest (just turned 7 the other day) already knows what the ESRB ratings are and which ones he can and can not play from a cusrsor glance. Anything in the grey area, then I go and check it out for approval. So yes, I want the right to be able to say that a T rated game is ok for my child, or even an M rated one (in whole or part depending on the content and my decission) is appropriate for my child to play. That is why I don't support you.
Oh, and about the above comment telling someone to give their real name..I have no issue with that. My name is Jeremy Powers. Anything else?
Not to mention banning games before anyone knows anything about an incident.
That’s my only issue. Deal with that, and stop with the other stuff. ”
Well, if your so worried about what other countries are doing in regards to our gaming and acting like we should follow suit, a large number of countries in Europe allow drinking at a MUCH younger age than here in the US.
When he's in a debate, he sticks pretty well to logical constructs. After all, no one's ever going to argue that M rated games should be sold to children under 17. If that's all you stick to saying, then yeah of course people will agree with you. No one has ever objected to that line of reasoning.
But when he's in the media (or writing lawsuits), what comes out of his mouth is insane frothing madness - that adult games should be banned in order to protect children. He never takes that to the debate. He never took his attempt to get Bully banned to a debate.
So debating this man is not constructive; it just gives him a sense of position and authority to continue making the crazy claims once he's out of earshot of smart people.
Here's where we need to wind up;
1) If you want to see an R or NC-17 rated movie, you need be that old or bring an adult with you. If you bring the DVD home, the DVD player needs its parental controls to permit that.
2) If you want to play an AO or M rated PC game, you need to be that old or bring an adult with you (example: have a credit card). Unfortunately, PC is teh suxxors for parental moderation (consider: the Internet exists). Parents should generally avoid it.
3) If you want to play an AO or M rated console game, you need the parental controls unlocked. Optionally, you need to be that old or bring an adult with you to buy it, but it's not really necessary - that's just an optimization that keeps folks from spending money just to return it. It's true: If you let your 12 year old have a soldering gun, he might be able to play AO or M rated games anyway if he knows what to do. In this case, I'm more concerned that your child is a mad scientist bent on world domination than any causal relationship between video games and their behaviour.
That's the truth. That's where we need to be; what we need to be doing. It also turns out to be precisely where we are at today.
So, your work here is done, Jack. Go home with the peace of a job well done.
Whenever I see you debate someone, though I don't agree with you on most of your points, I always have a hope - however faint - that when you next post online, you would be as courteous and decent as you were in the debate itself.
Then you post, and boom, same old same old.
Yes, we disagree on many, many points, but there is NO reason that you can't show a tad of decorum towards us. The more you act like a child, the more we push back against you - as you have been doing, Jack. Such comments as the immature "Somebody get this guy some mental health help" only help solidify the fact that you're not someone worth bothering with in our eyes.
Constantly insulting Dennis, who owns the site you currently find yourself on, doesn’t help matters much either – he’s actually pretty much your biggest defender on these forums, deleting comments of those that pretend to be you online within moments of learning of them, and allowing you a forum through which you can actually speak to your “enemies.”
If you spent a few days posting in a calm, collected manner, without resorting to insults, or the ad hominem attacks which you seem to so delight in using, you'd find that many of us here would be more than willing to debate the issue with you in a rational manner.
If you'd be good enough to talk with us as you debated with Lorne, then who knows? We might be able to come to some sort of compromise that makes everyone happy as relating to video games. Legislation is not the way to go - this has been proven by the fact that every single law has been struck down over and over again. But perhaps a joint effort to increase awareness of the ratings, a national campaign of some sort? Make it 100% clear to every single person exposed to the campaign what games are appropriate for what gamers. Perhaps even greater education necessary for any retailers that sell games - even that, I think, we could all agree with.
If you work with us, with gamers, you'll find the road smoother. And the first step towards that is treating others with the respect that you seem to demand. Constantly insulting Dennis, who owns the site you currently find yourself on, doesn’t
PS: Sure, there'd always be the "Jack Thompson get bent" type posts, but this is the Internet - what're you going to do? Seems like whenever certain people get in front of a keyboard to type, without having to deal with the issue face to face, they seem to have an easier time acting like a complete and utter prat. Hmmm. Sounds kind of familiar.
when is the last time Budweiser was successfully sued (or sued period) because a teenager got drunk and killed someone while behind the wheel of a vehicle?
I'm sure people have tried, claiming that Bud is engaging in a campaign to promote their product to minors (see most campaigns against tobacco ads), but a better question is when was the last time entire legal systems were sued for being in a conspiracy to protect the alcohol industry?
Exactly, think that Jack Thompson would be able to pull stunts like that in Canada?
Inappropriate does not equal harmful. Please make shorter leaps of logic, you might pull a hamstring. Also, there is no law prohibiting the sale of this game to anyone under 17 years of age. Much like the MPAA, the ESRB carries no weight of law.
"Dennis, I thought stuff like this was banned here?"
If it was you would already be banned.
"I’m the 800 pound gorilla opponent that Take-Two itself created."
I really think an "800 pound gorilla" could you know, win some cases. Maybe you need to set your metaphorical simian sights a little lower. Perhaps you can be the lemur that Take-Two created?
"PhoenixZero: I’m sorry, but what part about an ESRB descriptor stating “Strong Sexual Content” do you not understand?"
Strong sexual content does not equal sex. Many R rated movies have strong sexual content without having actual copulation. And as we know the FTC stated that obtaining an R rated movie is much easier than an M rated game to obtain.
Hell, the Sports Illustrated swim suit issue could be considered sexual content.
So please stop twisting the descriptor to fit your needs.
"Dear Manta: First of all, stop being a coward and use a real name."
He who uses an anonymity site to get around his IP ban has no right to chastise anyone for being anonymous. Stop being a coward and use your real IP address.
"Do you think retailers should sell alcohol, tobacco, and firearms to anyone of any age? If no, then why would you think that retailers should sell to anyone under 17 a Mature game, with no parent in sight?"
Perhaps because alcohol, tobacco and firearms are harmful to children as where M rated games are just inappropriate.
We're certainly feeling the effects of his type in the UK. Go the BBFC etc...
Here in America we don't tolerate that kind of crap Sir!
NOTE: This does not mean I am in the US, Canada, Mexico or any other Central/South American State.
He even quoted Jabrwock quoting me asking the question and failed to answer it.
I mean, it is of course 100% his fault that money was lost. A competent lawyer would have written Constitutional law. Especially, he wouldn't keep making the same mistakes.
You're suprised?
Jack still has to name a single TRUE fact in order to become a legitimate critic. His best argument so far is that video games were not around during the Ancient Era in Greece.
Yeah, that one made little sense. By that regards, the only true art out there is either of wars, sports, homo-eroticism, or naked people... or giant erect penis statues on every street corner (state-sponsored fertility statues ftw!)
Insults are not a way to win friends or supporters. I am sure you have been disillusioned to the nature of commenters here, but there are many of us that do not sling insults nor do we deserve them. I have never insulted you. I may have had a laugh at some of your antics, but I have never insulted you.
If you seriously think I am female, then you have bigger issues that need tended to.
Again, you have been disillusioned to the nature of many of the commenters here to the point that you feel that no on here wishes for a serious conversation with you. If you felt that my email was merely meant to be "clever", then I am sorry that I failed to show my sincerity. Unfortunately, I cannot change the impression that was given to you by others but I can say that I am not out to "prove my manhood" or whatever you consider many of the emails and comments you receive.
Again I must say, that I never requested a debate, but a dialog. A dialog is when two people talk to each other. Both are free to ask questions of the other and give answers to those questions. A dialog has no agenda to achieve other than both people walking away from it with a better understanding of the other person's stance. I shared with you my stance and asked for clarification of yours. Is that too much to ask?
If, as jadedcritic explained, you are afraid that I would just share your personal contact information freely, I would like to share with you that I am a supporter of privacy and would not compromise the privacy of anyone.
So in the end, I was not asking for a debate, nor was I trying to be clever.
Thanks for taking the time to respond to me here.
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
OK Game Devs
Random Tower
November 5th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
Dear Manta: First of all, stop being a coward and use a real name.
Secondly, the day I disclose to all my tactics at GP is the day I pack it in. Nice try. Here’s the only issue for me:
Do you think retailers should sell alcohol, tobacco, and firearms to anyone of any age? If no, then why would you think that retailers should sell to anyone under 17 a Mature game, with no parent in sight?
That’s my only issue. Deal with that, and stop with the other stuff.
Well, rightfully they shouldn't, but kids can go to Best Buy and pick up Hostel or Saw II as well, but I don't see you suing the major movie studios.
The fact that you think that games are somehow not only something that should be subject to regulation over and above other media with violent or sexual content, and the fact that you actually seem to think that a video game is on the same calibre as a gun or alcohol demonstrates your profound lack of understanding.
You can't even prove that there's a causal link between violent video games and real life violence, how can you possibly say that games are as destructive as a firearm in the hands of a minor? It's gross hyperbole at it's finest.
Inthat regard, since he turned it down,many, MANY times, he does not want to understand for fear of having his reality broken.
You WILL regret it for the rest of your life. And we'll stalk you, then kill you, then wear your skin.
that explains why your such a fucking idiot.
My issue is: "stop the sales of mature games to kids under 17, with no parents around. You want my issue to be more than that. It's not.
Go find yourself some other bogeyman to rant paranoiacally at.
Oooh, BURN!
You hear that Jack? You just got PWNED!
(If you're gonna use ROFLMAO then I'm gonna use PWNED. Deal with it.)
Exactly, think that Jack Thompson would be able to pull stunts like that in Canada?
What's ironic is the provincial governments who do enforce game ratings (and they all enforce MPAA ratings), 100% support the ESRB. So Jack's industry conspiracy extends to entire governments too... and in a socialist country no less. Gosh!
But yeah, a lawsuit against Take Two wouldn't work up here. The courts would toss it out and tell him to restrict it to retailers only, since they are the enforcers of the ratings. If he had a problem with the ratings given out, he could take it up with the local ratings boards, since they approve of ESRB ratings (they have never overruled an ESRB rating to date).
Even when Hot Coffee broke, the ratings boards issued warnings to parents, but didn't change the rating, leaving it up to the ESRB to act.
Now that was brilliant.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
Dear Manta: First of all, stop being a coward and use a real name.
Secondly, the day I disclose to all my tactics at GP is the day I pack it in. Nice try. Here’s the only issue for me:
Do you think retailers should sell alcohol, tobacco, and firearms to anyone of any age? If no, then why would you think that retailers should sell to anyone under 17 a Mature game, with no parent in sight?
That’s my only issue. Deal with that, and stop with the other stuff. "
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"jack thompson, attorney Says:
November 5th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Dear Ms. Knight: I support parents’ rights, which is why they support me. Retailers should not sell Mature games to kids with no parents in sight. You don’t want a debate. You want to be “clever.” You failed on both counts. "
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"jack thompson, attorney Says:
November 5th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Kurisu: Stop with the amateur psychoanalysis, please. I have a view. I expressed it. A “debate” for some of you people means wearing me down with “f— you” emails, and I get tired of that.
My issue is: “stop the sales of mature games to kids under 17, with no parents around. You want my issue to be more than that. It’s not.
Go find yourself some other bogeyman to rant paranoiacally at. "
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LIAR and FRAUD!
From the Target article on 04Nov2007:
"jack thompson, attorney Says:
November 5th, 2007 at 6:50 am
I did three national television interviews on Manhunt 2 last week. I was happy to contribute to any possible decision by Target to pull this crap game.
Hooah! Jack Thompson "
Told you I was going to bring it up every time you denied a stance of being against the First Amendment, Freedom of Speech, and outright banning.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Really? Because as far as I've seen the only thing you've pushed for is a total removal of these games from stores shelves. And as I'm sure you realize would inhibit the rights of those over 17 as well.
So he truly has no objections to retailers selling R rated movies to kids and teenagers. Perhaps the reason his son didnt get carded while buying Halo 3 was because he was often seen there before buying R rated movies.
Good to see you around and engaging in a bit of positive debate with the people at GP. This is the sort of thing we could probably all do with happening more often. (@Everyone: Ad hominems aren't cool.)
I would like to address one point of yours though.
My issue is: "stop the sales of mature games to kids under 17, with no parents around." You want my issue to be more than that. It’s not.
If this is your single issue, then I applaud it. I'm one of the supporters of the BBFC-style system where ratings are considered law. However, if this is the case, then why does the recent Manhunt 2 hack feature in your arsenal? Manhunt 2 off-the-shelf is a Mature game, and the hack doesn't add any more content to the game, making it no more Mature and certainly not upping it to the dreaded Adults Only band. Why make such a fuss over a simple hack if it isn't related to the sale of Mature games to kids?
We have pointed out to you, this is obviously not your only issue! Retailers and customers are the only people involved in the sale of video games. If your only issue is the sale, then do something to try and get retailers to abide by the ratings. Do something to educate the parents regarding the ESRB ratings so they can judge what is appropriate and not for their kids.
Your actions in the past have shown that you have a personal agenda, or vendetta even towards Take Two and Rockstar. The countless court cases, which eventually led to you being banned from taking them to court have shown this. All of the court actions you have taken, in trying to wrench reparations from Take Two in the Devin Moore case, and Cody Posey will do nothing to halt the sale of the M rated games to kids under 17. You understand? Nothing!
You have time and time again attacked the people who make the games and play the games (quite offensively at times), but you fail to address the only parties involved in the actual purchase process, the retailers and customers. You have never once called out a parent for ignoring the ratings and buying an inappropriate game for their child. You have used your "stings" (funny how you said a sample size of one was insufficient in the past...) to attack the developers, saying that there is a vast conspiracy to sell them to kids which they are behind.
I agree with you, young kids should not in most cases be playing M rated video games, especially not examples such as Manhunt 2. However, howling and suing the people who made the game instead of the people who sell and buy it cannot do anything to affect your "issue".
ESRB ratings are a policy that distributors, manufacturers, and consumers have all agreed on. Its goal is to advise consumers as to what games are appropriate to consumers of what ages. It is not, however, law.
Until this changes, everything said on the topic of legality of the actions of stores is moot.
My issue is: “stop the sales of mature games to kids under 17, with no parents around. You want my issue to be more than that. It’s not.
So why care about publishers then? If you focused on the retailers, then no kids should get the game anyway.
So I guess my question is, if you're so gung ho about enforcing the ratings, why aren't you going after the Entertainment Retailers Association and their members?
Either the ratings mean something, and need to be enforced, or the ratings are meaningless. Pick one. If you sue the ERA, then you support the ratings given out by the ESRB, and it's the ERA that isn't enforcing them. Or you support the ERA, and they're being deceived by the ESRB. You can't have it both ways.
My issue is: “stop the sales of mature games to kids under 17, with no parents around.
You continue to disregard the statistics of video game sales compared to other media. According to the FCC reviews, the rates of underage people buying M-rated games is about the same as underage people getting into R-rated movies, and is significantly less than the rate of underage people buying R-rated or "unrated" movies at retailers. Why are you so obsessed over video games, when they are more successful than movies at enforcing age restrictions?
Meanwhile, books are completely unregulated. Anyone can buy any book, no matter its content, be it a Kama-Sutra guide, the Anarchists' Cookbook, the Bible, the Koran, Mein Kampf, or the Communist Manifesto, all of which are probably more harmful to minors than Halo. Why have you never gone after books?
I must concur with Lorne that you are, in fact, only interested in money. You do not go after films or publishers because there is too much precedent protecting their rights, while you can drum up more support from ignorant citizens as video games are a new medium. I find further evidence in that, despite this being "a moral crusade" for you, you refused to debate Jason Della Rocca unless you were handsomely compensated. Considering how much time you waste trolling the forums, I cannot believe you have such a paucity of time that a trip to a college would actually inconvenience you.
@BlackIce
Don't worry, I could never go into law. There is not enough soap or steel wool in this world to make me feel clean if I did.
While I cannot speak in an official capacity I can assure you that you will find the GDC to be an excellent place to sound ideas in a calm and intelligent manner. Over the past few years there has been a distinct rise in the number of round tables, lectures and panels on the subjects of decency, social consciousness and the moral obligations of the games industry. I do hope you will come and join the discussions already in progress.
If, while at the GDC, you have any questions or problems I would like to encourage you to contact the Conference Associates (CA) group. They are a group of the most intelligent, polite, friendly people I know and will be more than happy to help out in any way that they can. They are easily identifiable by their brightly colored T-shirts (the color changes every year, last year was orange) and their friendly, polite demeanor. These men and women are volunteers from the games industry who work tirelessly to make this conference run smoothly and to make certain that all guests and speakers have a pleasant and productive time.
Again, I am glad to hear of your plans to speak at the GDC and look forward to seeing you there.
For the record, I personally feel that M-rated games (and R-rated movies) should be required to have the purchaser carded upon purchase. If Jack goes in with that argument, and does research ahead of time on the specifics of the Manhunt 2 deal, etc. I think he will do very well.
If Jack himself is reading this, I would like to say that whoever you are going to be debating WILL know everything that they are talking about, and if you say something non-factual you will be taken to task for it. If you want to come out on top, you really do need to take the time to do serious research into this matter.