November 14, 2007
Just when you thought every self-appointed media watchdog out there had weighed in on the Manhunt 2 saga...As reported in the conservative Washington Times, Ted Baehr, founder of the Christian Film & Television Commission (CFTC) has joined other critics in calling for Manhunt 2's Adults Only (AO) rating to be restored. Said Baehr:
Unlike other first-person shooters where you are protecting yourself, in Manhunt 2, you are seeking innocent victims. It teaches susceptible children to commit sadistic violence.
The CFTC, which has an anti-Manhunt 2 petition on its website, promotes so-called Christian and family values, according to Baehr:
We're encouraging the entertainment industry to get back to having standards.
Baehr laments the lack of church influence in movie content. As described by the Times:
From 1933 until 1966, the Roman Catholic Church, the Southern Baptist Church and the Protestant Film Office evaluated movies in terms of the Motion Picture Code for explicit sex, violence, profanity and blasphemy, Mr. Baehr said in his book. But in 1966, the churches voluntarily withdrew from the entertainment industry and their code was replaced by the Motion Picture Association of America's MPAA rating system...
GP: Baehr is more than a bit late to the Manhunt 2 bashing party. Beyond that, it's a bit scary to think that the artistic vision of a film - or a game, for that matter - might be required to pass through a religious filter.
Comments
It's a free market. If you think there's a market for the type of film or games YOU want on the market, but together the resources and get it done. Mel Gibson laughed all the way to the bank with "The Passion of the Christ" because he ended up putting up all of the money out of his own pocket to film it. (That's right, no studio backed him on it.) That was obviously a success. The Left Behind game, not so much.
As far as someone complaining about Manhunt 2 goes: YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG! This issue is so two weeks ago. We've moved on to blue lesbian aliens now, thank you.
"You do not identify the validity of my argumentive points or realize my intent." No, I have. It's bullshit because A. You say EVERY Christian is this, and B. You are a complete jackass. A troll. Nothing more but narrow-minded sub-par human incapable of proper argument. You scream shit out your mouth and call it "valid." Maybe if you weren't such a fucking douche, and maybe if you actually had a decent argument against, as nightwing suggested, a selection, I could comply. But to encompass all, I am forced to counter-argue.
"Okay, try telling that to a book that owes its validity to the sole premise that it provides the eternal, literal, truth of God."
If you want to think that. I know Christians who DO NOT think that is the case. I know Christians who think it is not necessarily the word of God, and who believe you should not base your life around it, who feel you should learn from it instead.
"I am not abstracting a sterotype for Christians from one person"
Fucking bullshit. You've belittled them ALL before. Explain that, then. Your stereotyping is blatant and false, you really are basing this whole thing. Sure, maybe not FROM one person, but you are stereotyping ALL Christians.
"I am sorry if the Bible is such a perverse, morally disgusting, and hateful tomb of superstition." And you're a perverse, morally disgusting, hateful troll.
You get a free pass on the whole bible thumping thing since they actually are bible thumpers this time (broken clocks, right twice a day, and all that). However, unlike Yee and friends, you may notice that the wingnuts aren't asking for a law here. They're asking the industries to voluntarily start being more family friendly.
And, last I checked, the First Amendment protects consumers' right to tell companies what kind of product they would like...
Religious filter? Come on, people, this is some guy who says that the gore and violence in this game would be harmful for children, it is sadistic, and it is against the morals of his religion. What is the big deal?
he's still said he's not atheist, to semi-quote him: "Trying to prove there isn't a higher force is just as impossible as trying to prove there is one."
The credibility of this person's claims fall short very very early it seems.
A: Manhunt 2 is third-Person not first person and it hardly qualifies as a shooter.
B: You ARE protecting yourself in Manhunt 2, you are being hunted. Hence manhunt.
C: Teaches children? No this is an adult game, be a parent and don't let them play this.
Also @Shadowmagus
"Hey man, I can assure you that there are a lot of Christians who don’t think this kind of censorship should happen."
Forget it. Nothing is going to break Pandralisk(AKA Religion Thompson) out of his belief of fear and hate. Doing so is like arguing racial equality to a Klansman.
Sitting on a pile of gold, drinking wine from Holy Grails from Ubisoft.
Lets see how much idiocy we can correct here...
1.) Manhunt 2 has not been banned for sale to adults - the AO version wasn't even banned for sale to adults, most stores just refuse to carry it (it's a defacto ban, not a REAL ban). The M version isn't even "banned" for sale to teens, it's just not recommended for them.
2.) Credit Card age verification is acceptable according to the FCC. Duh.
3.) Dennis is reporting on the industry itself - he's not a tool for the industry (nice try at the dual-use of tool, but it's old and lame), he's a reporter. He reports on the good and the bad. He works for the ECA, a CONSUMER group. C-O-N-S-U-M-E-R. Get it right, moron.
They need to worry about child molestation happening in churchs, not video games.
If they want to be relevant again, cleaning up there image would help.
Not innocent people.
It would seem strange that innocent people are hunting you down so they can kill you.
This game isn't for anyone under 17.
-Manhunt isn't a first person shooter, it's a 3rd person stealth/horror game
-The game isn't FOR children and any half educated person knows this
-You don't kill innocent people, you kill bad guys
-These delusional religious tossers need to clean up their own backyard before they targeting something they have absolutely no idea about. For god sake at least inform yourself before you spurt out such garbage.
-Fuck off we live in a secular state and not everybody shares your delusional ultra-conservative religious views. Why do these morons always insist on trying to merge church and state? Once again, fuck off please.
That is all.
Christian values are for the most part archaic and irrelevant today.
Well that's not quite true; Jesus had some great teachings on the traps of materialism and persecution but this is largely ignored by the religious right and people like Jack 'sue everyone and persecute unpopular subcultures for my own gain' Thompson and the rest of the religious right because it dosen't fit their message as nicely.
Church =/= State.
It's not 1966 anymore, it's 2007.
Escaping from an insane asylum and trying to get away from the people hunting you down isn't protecting your self?
Mr. Baehr are teh fail.
"Unlike other first-person shooters where you are protecting yourself, in Manhunt 2, you are seeking innocent victims."
As has been pointed out already, it's a 3rd person game, it's not a shooter, the people you kill are evil, you do more than "protect yourself" in an fps...
"It teaches susceptible children to commit sadistic violence.
Correction, you BELIEVE it teaches children to commit violence. What is it with all these people taking opinion as fact?
"Baehr laments the lack of church influence in movie content."
I think he laments the fact that not everyone is exactly like himself and many do not share his beliefs. Would he be happier if the entire world was a mass of clones?
"From 1933 until 1966, the Roman Catholic Church, the Southern Baptist Church and the Protestant Film Office evaluated movies in terms of the Motion Picture Code for explicit sex, violence, profanity and blasphemy, Mr. Baehr said in his book. But in 1966, the churches voluntarily withdrew from the entertainment industry and their code was replaced by the Motion Picture Association of America’s MPAA rating system…"
Man, that sounds great, a body set up to evaluate media products based on their content, and rate them based on that content, giving people the ability to decide whether it may be appropriate for them or their children. Now, if only there was something like that for video games...
Wait, what?
"Beyond that, it’s a bit scary to think that the artistic vision of a film - or a game, for that matter - might be required to pass through a religious filter."
This is very true. How would Mr. Baehr like it if a Muslim group complained about Christian media that he likes? People have different tastes, interests, beliefs, it would be terrible to force the tastes, opinions and beliefs of one sector of the population on the rest.
It looks like the band wagon has moved on and this guy was a little late and trying to catch up.
Boy, so much wrong with that statement. Where to begin? I know:
1. Manhunt two is third person not first person.
2. Manhunt is a stealth game not a shooter.
3. The "victims" are not innocent. They are trying to kill you.
4. It does not teach anything.
5. It is not meant for children. The M rating should be a dead give away. (pun intended)
The industry as a whole does not have to have any standards. For this guys information, only 8% of the game rated last year were M rated. 69% of the games rated last year were E and E10. So where is this guy getting off saying we don't have values?
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
Random Tower: Game News and Commentary
It'd be like if i went on tv and started saying crap like "we've gotta keep kids away from churches because of the rampent child molestation and hate speech towards minorities" wich i know isn't strictly the case.
I may be a Catholic, but I'm offended that people like Baehr - despite all their gross ignorance - think that they can impose upon fellow churchgoers what we're supposed to watch, or think for that matter.
"GP: Baehr is more than a bit late to the Manhunt 2 bashing party. Beyond that, it’s a bit scary to think that the artistic vision of a film - or a game, for that matter - might be required to pass through a religious filter."
It's happening in Iran, right? It's amusing how the CFTC tries to promote Christian values, and inavertedly ends up becoming what it's supposed to be fighting - misguided zealots.
http://www.movieguide.org/index.php?s=reviews&sub=glossary
Just visited their site.
Sweet Jesus...would probably bitch-slap them for being the conservative firebrands they've proven to be in their writing.
Even a priest friend over in my old college (a Jesuit, mind you) doesn't mind nudity or R-rated films, provided they're used for perfectly good reasons within the story context.
Am I to assume that CFTC is an influential entity over there in the US, or are they just latching onto Manhunt 2 for controversy (and publicity's) sake?
From my point of view, a LOT of organizations pump themselves up a lot. But the About Us page mentions that this fellow has had a few TV interviews and a few publications. Heck, he's been on Entertainment Tonight and Oprah, so he must be important.
Heck, bragging that one has been on TV and has been interviewed really makes a BIG impression on me.
....
You're right, I couldn't bluff my way out of a wet paper bag.
:D
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Sometimes, after I consider the obvious hypocrisy of so many self-professed Christians (including my personal favorite Born Again, Jack Thompson) I can't help but believe the Romans had it right: Throw them to the lions!
Bwuh? What?
From their petition: "We the undersigned are disappointed in Sony Entertainment and Nintendo..."
You know, when I was a kid, that phrase always worked on me when I did something wrong. I somehow don't think it's going to work on two enormous corporations. They should include a wagging finger on their petition.
I wouldn't mind seeing some XXXX games and some XXXX movies myself.
....
Oh... Uh, you meant... uh... yeah... never mind. :O
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Homosexual is a worldview?
I'll bet these guys are Jack Chick fans...
Their "content" ratings aren't bad for major content (the rest of the system makes no sense). N is light nudity, NNN is full frontal. Although throwing in the degree of Anti-Biblical content makes the ratings get silly AbAbAb... But throwing in the rest (even having acronyms for communism and anti-patriotism) is just too much. This would get confusing REAL fast.
Manhunt 2 condemned by ___________. Nobody shocked. News at 11.
If we could just get everyone who wants to say the same damn thing about Manhunt 2 to sign a list, we could create a template letter and stop wasting everyone's time.
When a group of superstitious pigs tries to strip myself and all other people of moral autonomy and personal liberty I am inclined to reply. But I'd like you to remember, I am not doing the flaming here. It is the choice of these Bible thumping morons to shove their bullshit belief systems down the throats of people. I am perfectly willing to allow them to worship their hateful God in peace. They cannot live with the idea of personal freedom and autonomy for adults; this is why I post and posit true values on their absurd conception of God.
Standards? The entertainment industry has moved to embrace REAL standards: namely, allowing an artistic to create any form of media they wish. We have replaced superstitious hate with personal liberty. Try to live with this, Bible thumping pigs.
YOUR STANDARDS ARE NOT UNIVERSAL.
After 1966, America liberated itself from Christian hate and censorship by telling superstitious pigs to shove their bullshit and absurd values back where they belong: up the asses of those gullible and feeble minded enough to believe such nonsense. It's sick enough that a handful of people who worship a racist, infanticidal, genocidal, sado-masochistic, and deluded monster believe that their metaphysically absurd ideas should govern our values. It worse when the same Bible thumping pigs see fit to rape us of our liberty [something that they take for granted in this country].
News Flash, Moronic Christian Activists: Society does not share your backward, evil, and superstitious standards. Many people LOVE fictional depecitions of violence and sex; and there is nothing perverse, wrong, or damaging about it. Keep your superstition and hate where it belongs.
As you can see, a great deal of critcism toward this industry does not emerge from overprotective parents, but from the tyrannical moral policing of the facist, bible thumping, sects of evangelical Christians. These sick, freedom-raping, individuals will stop at nothing in their quest to strip you of your moral autonomy and personal freedom. I've tried to point this out to you before. Most of the critics of the industry, especially the damaging ones, subscribe to this same brand of theological moral facism.
A minority of parenting and secular critics exist, but the aforementioned minority simply desires to make adult games harder to get for children. JT and the hordes of evangelical morons want to police and destroy the content of games. They seek to control and destroy the artistic freedom of the industry itself.
Nope, they are still crazy.
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
Random Tower: Game News and Commentary
A liberal mind would see value in entertainment that presents a sadistic point of view. Sadism is hard to understand. Without being sadistic, it's almost impossible to understand. But, one really can't just try it out under normal circumstances, even though insight into sadism might give one better tools to address it. The liberal mind thinks it might be able to get this insight from safe surrogates, like entertainment.
A conservative mind sees no value. It thinks that the only person that could enjoy a story told from a sadists point of view would themselves be a sadist. Conservatives as a group say they do not think they can learn from entertainment. They say they avoid entertainment with a political message, because they are afraid it might be a liberal message. It is as though they are afraid that being exposed to other points of view will alter their own point of view. (Which, of course, one would hope to be true in most cases, at least to a small degree.) But here they seem to think that being exposed to a sadistic point of view will make them (or, actually, people will less moral fiber than them) into sadists.
I don't think sadism itself is a point of view, though a character can have a point of view that is influenced by their sadism. I don't think sadism is an idea that can be transmitted in this manner, like Mother's Day or democracy can. I think the fears are unfounded, and reflect a dysfunctional way of dealing with the world.
And you also know Pandralisk is going to show up with an asshole-ish, hate-spewing, venomous rant about how Christians are out to get him.
(See above.)
No matter what you may or may not think about this game, and or the ability to learn behavior from games in general, the game can't possibly teach children anything IF YOU DON'T BUY IT FOR THEM, AS RECOMMENDED BY THE "M FOR MATURE" RATING!!!
People like Baehr don't represent the sentiments of all Christians.
If anything, he's like some whacked out black sheep of the family that's better left to wallow in his fundamentalist delusions, never to be invited to the yearly Turkey carvings.
Odd. I assumed much of the critcism directed at me was either from fundamentalists who do not comprehend the explicit values articulated by their religion or presented by people who questioned the validity of my idea that Christians are actually trying to enforce censorship and moral facism in gaming today. This article should have addressed both.
Creating arguments that cite the explicit nature of God [to generate contradicts in values], identifying the intent of a large amount of its followers, and then telling the consequences of their religious facism does not seem crazy in the slightest.
I find it crazy to ignore these processes. Sadly, these freedom-hating actions are Biblically justistifed. They're abiding by one of the moral maxims defined in their religion: spread the faith [and its "standards" and value systems]. Thankfully, they're chosing to do so through censorship laws and enforcing unspoken norms derived from their superstition: older interpretations of this maxim would have Christians stoning non-believers, burning innocent people to death, and torturing/mutilating people for violating moral law when they play a "naughty" video game.
Gotta love Christian "standards" when presented in their historical and Biblical context.
Why do you say that? Because he is faithful and acknowledges his duty, supposdely annoited by God, to cleanse the world of "sin" and Godless immorality?
I might agree with your point if the Bible presented a divine imperative along the lines of, "honor the religious faiths of all other people and keep the word among only those who wish to believe in it." But, sadly, the Bible asks a far different thing of believers. He seems to be a wonderful example of true values derived, and applied, from the Bible. Not all Christians hate the concept of personal freedom, but I do not think that a Christian competent in Biblical study could call a believer like Baehr insane, whacked out, or not acting in accord with scripture.
Nope, this rant is as crazy and absurd as any of your earliers rants.
This guy, and Jack T. are no christians. They're just power-hungry goose-stepping morons who uses the bibles to justify their actions.
Ranting about how all religious people are whack-jobs just because some of them are clearly mental, is no more reasonable that calling all gamers potential murderers because some fruit-loop with an Xbox went postal at his local school.
Equally, I hope folk don't assume the rest of the non-believing community is as frantic and hate-filled as Pandralisk.
Every side has it's loonies.
Nope, this rant is as crazy and absurd as any of your earliers rants.
This guy, and Jack T. are no christians. They're just power-hungry goose-stepping morons who uses the Bible to justify their actions.
In Québec, even priest let the young generation live without trying to censor their activities. Even movies rated R in the US are rated 13+ in Québec (like Total Eclipse).