- XBOX 360 Premium console: $399.99
-annual subscription to XBOX Live: $49.99
-Not paying attention to what your kid is doing with your debit card: $35
It’s a relatively inexpensive lesson, but Georgia resident Francisco Garcia apparently wishes to hold Microsoft responsible for allowing his underage son to use his debit card.
Back in the fall of ’05, Garcia’s son used daddy’s plastic to sign up for XBOX Live. A year later, just like the fine print says, Microsoft auto-renewed the subscription and billed Garcia an additional $49.99. The unexpected debit resulted in an overdraft of his checking account. While Microsoft graciously refunded the subscription fee, it wouldn’t cover the bank penalty. So Garcia is suing. His class-action suit claims:
By accepting a subscription from a minor and automatically renewing it without consent, Microsoft fraudulently induced a contractual relationship for Xbox Live services.
For its part, Microsoft has asked the federal court to dismiss the case, claiming it can prove that Garcia’s son misrepresented his age when he signed up for the service using his father’s bank card.
Attorney Mark Methenitis offers his take on his Law of the Game blog:
I find it hard to believe that the parent in this case didn't notice the original Xbox Live charge, and if he did, then it was irresponsible not to address the issue at that time and rather let it renew a year later… it is ultimately the parent's fault the card was taken and used by the child.
…many states do hold parents responsible for the actions of their children, be that vandalism or online piracy or, in this case, use of a parent's credit card. Given that Microsoft already refunded the charge, the vicarious liability would be limited to the bank overdraft fee, which still stems from the original action of the child.
Here's an interesting tidbit in the case that you'll only find on GamePolitics: In a document filed with the court. Microsoft says it has more than 80,000 Xbox Live subscribers in Georgia who have paid over $5.2 million in fees to play online.
Via: InformationWeek
-Reporting from San Diego, GP Correspondent Andrew Eisen
Comments
/cries
Child takes debit/credit card...cant make a purchase because the system requires a passcode.
Say there's no passcode...STILL WOULD HAVE TORN HIS ASS UP FOR IT. Wow..parenting sure is hard. Makes you wonder how some people can really be that thick to try and blame ANYTHING on other people instead of just realizing the mistake, teaching from it, and moving on.
Of course we all know what this really is "I suck as a parent....I can make a buck off of this."
And two, Garcia is suing Microsoft because in Georgia, where he lives, if a company enters a multiple-year contract with an adult (which this was because of the automatic fee renewal), the contract must be in writing and, I believe, the company must have the adult’s written permission. Apparently, there was no written contract here.
Don't suppose you happen to know where that is in Georgia code eh? It's a pain searching for contract renewal...
I've found information about "Negative Option Plans" (plans that keep providing services until you cancel), and the Georgia Governor’s Office of Consumer Affairs says this:
Businesses must obtain your consent before enrolling you in a negative option plan. This is because, under traditional contract law, businesses cannot charge you for goods that you do not order.
Most states consider checking a box online stating "I agree" to be be equivalent to signing your name or saying "yes I agree" over the phone. These are acceptable for "simple" contracts.
*multiple times*
...This guy can't be THAT stupid, can he? Just... no. You know what? NO. I'm not even gonna go into detail. This shouldn't even need... just, forget it.
*walks out*
And an argumnent that covers both with or without their knowledge/ permission.
I'm betting there's a game out there somewhere that that enabled the kid to train for just this kind of deception.
Who is his lawyer? JT?
This guy is an idiot and his case will never see the light of day. When signing up for XBox Live, as the article states, it will auto renew. So he is at fault for not paying attention.
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
OK Game Devs
Random Tower
The dad was an idiot, end of story.
This time, the parent is at fault. If an XBox live account renew as you say (I don't own a XBox, so I didn't know), then he don't have any excuses. He got no case at all.
But sadly, we all know that sooner or later, Johnny boy will use this story and will twist the fact (like he always did) to fit his agenda.
On the more important note, ultimately it is always the parents fault. If he cant keep ahold of his own wallet and cards, he deserves to pay, but that kid needs to get a job and pay his dad back for making him overextend his accounts. Or at least sell some crap on Ebay.
I would like to doubly apologize for the inherent stupidity of my home state.
*sigh* It's times like these I'm thankful that neither of my parents were born in Georgia.
Stupid Parent or Microsoft....parent or microsoft
court rules: microsoft for the parent being an idiot.
Did you see the post at gamepolitics.com...
therefore, the only one who should be yelled at is the son, for stealing his dad's credit card, and imo, the son should be the one who has to pay back the $35, or do chores until dad is happy.
it'd be a valuable lesson in consequences for the boy, not a lessson in making pointless claims.
That sucks for the kid, cause now his parents will have no money cause of the lawyer, and the kid will not have anymore xbox live.
Well to be blunt, he is trying to get it classified as class-action. This way, it can go to big court. The most that will come out of this is everyone who has ever overdrafted because of MS auto renew will get their over draft fees repayed.
The Dad will recieve no extra money. I doubt very many people will get behind it though, as most people are smart enough to realize that soemthing will auto renew.
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
OK Game Devs
Random Tower
PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT YOUR KIDS ARE DOING!
Now he's filing a class action lawsuit because Microsoft is only willing to refund (and already has) the money they took from him, but not what the bank's charging him for not keeping a closer eye on his money? What an idiot. Sounds to me like the guy doesn't want his $35. Rather he thinks he hit the lottery and can get a couple million from Microsoft.
Well actually, a class action lawsuit is not the lottery style law suit. It is a Micro soft will pay out millions but divided up into little $35 chunks for every person effected. So this guy will not get much more than the $35 he lost to the bank, if he wins.
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
OK Game Devs
Random Tower
This is somehow worse than the father who wanted to sue Rockstar over Hot Coffee, on a copy he bought his 18 year old son, a year and a half later...
If you can't afford the $50 a year for a subscription to X-Box Live... why did you spend $400 getting the kid a console? That is eight years of the subscription.
Idiots who can't manage their money, get their kids everything while putting themselves in a mountain of debt. If your family can't afford something you can't get that something. This guy is an idiot on so many levels.
The whole case comes down to the parent being negligent. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't know that MS auto-renews the XBOX live account. But that's not MS's fault. They inform you that they automatically renew the account when the subscription expires. Lots of companies do that. I'd bet that he allowed the son to sign up using his debit card, but didn't read any of the information about the process.
I doubt he'll get a large number of people signing up on his class action lawsuit. What kind of douchebag lawyer would take this case anyway? I mean other than he-who-must-not-be-named. What the Judge in this case should do (assuming it makes it to court) is order the son to pay the father back. That'll teach them both!
I don't know of ANY company that refunds bank overdraft fees anyway.
Microsoft did their part: they refunded what they charged.
Maybe the guy should sue the bank instead:
"They charged me, I didn't want them to, they refunded the money, so you, the bank, should refund me also since, technically, the transaction never took place."
If Microsoft hadn't refunded the money, MAYBE would have been a different story.
Of course, from the way the story reads, daddy LET him sign up once, for a YEARLY SUBSCRIPTION. Duh!
I agree with the dismissal request.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Then again, MS probably has crazed ninja lawyers. The dad needs to hope this either goes away quickly, or MS can probably try to stick him with legal fees.
Course, there's a chance he'll win, but given the circumstances we as consumers don't really want that. Prices for goods are already higher than they really need to be because companies have to do so much legal wrangling to avoid frivolous lawsuits; we'd basically all be paying money to this guy (through Microsoft as a middleman) because he wants money for nothing.
Card agreements state quite plainly that the CARDHOLDER is responsible for the card, and is in violation of the card's policies if someone else uses it.
So until the father is willing to declare the card stolen and point the finger at his son, he is legally responsible for all charges incurred from using the card.
If he signed up for the Live account himself, he's an idiot for not reading the agreement. I'm pretty sure the "this will auto-renew" is not in fine print. And if he let his son use the card, then he automatically takes responsibility for any events resulting from that decision... because it's still his card, and was used with his consent.
Cell phones have the same rules. If parent A is stupid enough to sign their kid up and not put any restrictions on the account, they can't get pissy when the cell bill shows up with $200 in fees from all that texting/downloading the kid did...
Thing is, I doubt he'll get all that many people to sign onto his suit, pushing things up a little on the off chance they win or settle in their favor. Either way it sounds to me like he sees this as a chance to get as much as he can from Microsoft, not simply the amount the bank charged him.
SO basically he's attacking a lion when it was a mouse that wronged him
"Everyone wants something for nothing"
Abe Simpson walks into a social security office.
"I'm old, Gimme gimme gimme!"
Here's another question:
In the Fall of '05, he signed up for XBox Live.
Was it a free year's subscription? 'Cuz Microsoft only refunded the annual fee of the SECOND year.
If the first year was billed:
(a) Daddy knew he was signing up for a subscription, so he got lucky getting the refund of the second year.
(b) Daddy didn't know so... how did he miss the charge for the first year?
If the first year was free:
(a) Daddy knew about the yearly service as mentioned before and got lucky getting the refund of the second year.
(b) Daddy didn't know (because there wasn't a charge for the first year) and he got his refund for the single charge. Hence, we're back to the overdraft fee being the only problem, which we've gone over.
Legally, this is mush. He's really got no case against Microsoft.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Not that I know of. You have to enter a new card code to continue the membership. Like phone cards.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
But he filed this as a class action. He cannot change that with out dismissing this case and refiling. So under the current filing, he will not get anything other than his overdraft fees.
Class action is not a money making endeavor. It is a "we the undersigned want our money back" endeavor.
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
OK Game Devs
Random Tower
The easiest way to explain why he did not notice the first charge is because hardly anybody looks at the charges made to their account unless something is wrong. IE the overdraft charge and the negative balance of the bank account.
As Nightwing said, they are like a phone card. Once it runs out, you have to buy another card to continue.
The cards are actually the best way to go with these types of services as you control how much is going into it. You will never be auto renewed.
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
OK Game Devs
Random Tower
lucky me
I just re-read it, it says he wants his money back for the original subscription that was already used up, this case will definitely never see the light of day. Maybe if it had been a few months into the first subscription he could have gotten a partial refund.
Eat this guy for breakfast. Tear him a new one. NO ONE is allowed to be as mentally retarded as he is (no offense to REAL mentally retarded people).
"Class action is not a money making endeavor."
Well, except for the lawyers involved, of course.
You live in America. TOS'es, EULA's and warranty disclaimers HAVE to include every single possible thing in the entire galaxy.
Otherwise we'll just have yet another "microwaved cat/McD coffee served Hot" case flying around, and that's just not good for the species' self-esteem.
Dad Gets Sued By Gamepolitics Reader For Being A Moron