[The ESRB, however,] reduced the revised version’s rating to “Mature,” effectively opening the door to its widespread distribution and its licensing approval by game system manufacturers Sony and Nintendo.

They forget to mention that:

1. M means you have to be 17 and above to play. Not exactly the age range of the "kids" they're trying to protect now, is it?

2. It was cut down to an M after several scenes were cut out of of the original version. And of thy argue it was possible, fine - show me an average kid within the stated age bracket that's capable of hacking the PSP ISO (which has to be ripped, hence is illegal) to show the scenes.

You're better off watching youtube to see the said scenes - why don't they ban that instead?

Yet again, I'm reminded how much I hate all politicians. Yet again, I'm reminded that I can't think of one good presidential candidate to vote for. Maybe I'll just write in "The anti-Christ". It seems we'll get that no matter who wins office.

As SolidSnark pointed out, what does the BBFC have to do with the price of tea in China? Or the ESRB? Or American values and morals, for that matter? Nothing! Nil. Nada. Zip. I really hate when anyone refers to another nations policies when defending a position. We are not those nations. We do not share their policies. If you can't defend you position based on American laws and policies, maybe you shouldn't. I believe there is an unwritten law that our courts don't cite foreign courts. So why should the ESRB reference the BBFC?

Well, once they’ve dismantled the ESRB and forced game legislation into law it won’t be long before they get regulations passed for all the forms of media that they missed in the past: Movies, Television, Music, Art, Literature. After they’re done with that I’m sure they’ll have no trouble passing laws prohibiting the worship of any religion other than Christianity. At the same time they’ll have passed the law demanding all illegal aliens be forcefully deported (being held in interment camps until they can be processed out naturally). After that it won’t be long before we will be required to get papers that state our intention to travel from state to state and if we don’t have them on us if a police officer asks we will be detained for questioning by Homeland Security.

Yep, political leaders like this are really taking this country forward into a brighter future.

This game is not for children. Should we all send letters to these guys and tell them that? I thought it has been said enough, but I guess I am wrong. This is why I am not voting for Clinton. People may think it is silly to base it on a video game issue, but if she can't grasp such a simple issue, what makes her able to grasp more complex things? "M" is not for children. The content on Manhunt 2 was hacked to bring it out. You need a modded Xbox and modded game to play it. Most children won't have that, and most won't even have the game. And this is Rockstar we're talking about! One company who has this problem. They want a review of the ESRB based on two events from the same company? Both of which were not the ESRB's fault. Look at other "M" rated games. No secret nudity in Halo 3. Sigh.

War on terror, war on drugs, Iraq war, economy, health care, numerous crazy and unjust laws....

countless of vital issues to make a stand on but what does Hilary center on???? VIDEO GAMES FOR CHILDREN OVER THE AGE OF 17....

THIS IS THE LAST STRAW IF SHE IS THE FRONT RUNNER I VOTING FOR REPUBLICANS......

@Paul

Rather than not voting at all, vote for anyone except those two. That's my plan in that scenario anyway. It's better to show up at the polls and vote for candidates that have no chance of winning, or only exist in your imagination than it is to not show up to vote at all. That's because then you'd be on the record as being displeased with the choice of candidates, than on the record as being apathetic.

They're all not gonna stop untill we're playing fucking V-Smile games.

I agree with SolidSnark, BBFC should have no impact on ESRB. they are independant from each other, and to maintain impartiality, should remain so.

"permits children to act out each of the many graphic torture scenes and murders"
no, parents allowing children access to the game are doing that.
the game is rated M! that means no children! get it through your heads!

The sad thing is that I know the only reason they care about this issue is that it can get them elected.
Grumble grumble... I hate politicians.

All praise General Hillary! I'm sure there will be SO much more of this to come!

SolidSnark: "We’re Americans and we don’t do censorship. "

Well . . . exposed SuperBowl Nipple and Elvis's hips would disagree w/ you. It looks like they don't want to be outdone by anyone on anything. Including censorship. :)

Y'know, if national game rating boards are allowed to influence each other, why haven't we turned this around the other way? We never say that MH2 should be un-banned in the UK because it's only rated M in the US - only that since the game is banned in the UK it should be banned here as well.
As the saying goes, all the Congressional fretting over video games is a solution in search of a problem. Hillary et. al. can come back when they have more to say in a letter than simply "we don't like this so it should be banned."

And some people think THIS is what they want in office?! ugh....

What is it about interactive media that makes politicians forget about the first amendment?

And yet again, it's the same "Rated M means Make sure your kids play it" bullshit that these politicians would like you to believe.

And another thing, Manhunt 2 isn't even as violent as the original. The only reason it was rated AO was because it said "Rockstar" on the package. The ESRB gave it the highest rating just to make sure they wouldn't go through another shitstorm like Hot Coffee.

I really hope that everyone who calls themselves gamers will vote against this , watch her plan backfire on her.

The good news, however, is that in the next 20 years these old farts will die off and we'll have a new round of politicians who aren't prude  like Clinton here.

GP: Feel free to express your views, but please avoid using a term that is derogatory toward all women. I've deleted it.

Well, I'm an active voter, and even though I can't vote against her directly, I have never planned on voting for her no matter who else is running. This just gives me one more reason...

I am not too bothered over a review of the ESRB, as if it is done in an unbiased manner, it should find that the mechanism of the ESRB is sound and the only problem is the unfamiliarity of parents regarding the ratings. What worries me would be who is appointed to perform the review. If they pick some soccer Moms who have been bombarded by Fox news soundbites regarding "killer" games they will cry for it's abolition. If they got someone like David Walsh, it will obviously be found flawed. If they get someone who understands the ratings like us, and who would have trouble understanding why some people just don't get it, then it will get perfect marks!

What should be done instead, is a review of how much politicians actually understand about video games and the rating mechanism, and a review of why parents don't seem to understand the ratings. If a person doesn't understand calculus, you don't assume calculus is wrong and order a review, you work with and teach the person to help them understand!

Still, I'm sure everyone knows that this is nothing more than a stab at the Soccer Mom vote for Hilary, with the other senators hanging on as well as the worst kind of attention is no attention...

Way to waste more of my tax dollars. Reviewing a independent non government rating board all for what? So they can waste more money on making a unconstitutional law and waste even more money having to pay the people who fight said law. Please I rather you waste my tax money ending the war or something that would actually help people in this world.

@GameDevMich: Some, but not all, critics raise that argument. The fact that courts have already rules that games are entitled to the same 1st amendment protections as movies has made it an unpopular stance. These four I think are just happy appealing to soccer moms who find this sort of thing repulsive. They say that obviously games like MH2 are harmful without really demonstrating that there is any harm.
They don't really address whether games are qualified as art. They just say that some games are not suitable for children - which is okay. Then they say that the government needs to control the industry to make sure children don't get to play these games - which is not.

They can get a full review of the ESRB when I get a full review of the MPAA.

This is bullshit. I want them to call for review of the MPAA Review if Manhunt is such a big deal. It's no worse than the Saw series, or Hostel. Both of which were far worse than what I've seen from Manhunt.

arowe87:
Neither side is looking out for your liberty. The Republicans are in the pocket of big business, and if they weren't they'd be the most likely candidate for protection of Liberty, or they would be if everyone wasn't so paranoid.

The less laws and government, the more liberty you have. Neither side is working toward this. (Well, with the exception of Ron Paul, but my hopes are almost nonexistent for that whole thing.)

@ Shoehorn O'Plenty

My main problem with the government reviewing the ESRB is the fact that the ESRB is not a government organization. What would be the point of it? Even if they find flaws in it, what can they do? Set up a government rating board? Illegal. Force the ESRB to change its rating practices? Also illegal.

If they want to fix any independent rating board, the should focus on the MPAA. There are so many allegations of corruption, that it’s just not funny.

And my response got cut off.

I wanted to say that though I'm a democrat myself, Hillary doing something like this is hugely disappointing to me.

M= MATURE= NOT FOR KIDS.

It's not complicated or "flawed" simply because you don't want to pay attention.

Holy crap people! This game is intended for people 17 years of age or older! How freakin' hard is that to understand?!?

If any of these morons become president, we're all doomed. The simple fact that people with no common sense were elected to the senate is in itself deeply disturbing. Just goes to show you, there are very few informed voters in this country.

Honestly, am I the only person who actually watches the debates? Does nobody else realize the general retardation possessed by nearly all politicians?

Sorry for the rant, but this has gone too far!

This is non-news. Even Hillary isn't above the FIRST AMMENDMENT. I don't care how much fear-mongering they do- unless they change the constitution then they will NEVER be able to censor games.

The end.

Gee, I guess the ESRB changing their mind on a pretty well neutered game is as bas as anything a terrorist could do including anthrax laced mail [/sarcasm]

Seriously though, this "video games = only for kids" idea needs to stop.

First of all in my opinion Manhunt 2 is a piece of trash with no redeeming qualities. However until these politicians actually play these games they will not know what they are talking about. Manhunt 2 on the Wii does not actually have as much violent acting out as The Godfather did for the same system and there was little concern from politicians over Godfather.

@jadedcritic

I think you're very close to hitting the nail on the head there. The problem is that we've moved away from voting for people with actual ideas. People vote for one person because they're not like the other guy. We don't see anyone really taking a stand and saying "this is what I believe" any more. Now I should say that I do have some respect for Lieberman, I've found that he does act with at least some integrity. I get the impression he really does believe in the things that he does. However the majority of people in both main parties have no real ideas.

We have to get back to what We the People means, and we need to do it soon. We need to stop attacking each other because someone might be Christian and someone else might be an atheist. Its asinine and it doesn't actually solve anything.

"The sad thing is that I know the only reason they care about this issue is that it can get them elected.
Grumble grumble… I hate politicians."

That's our only big flaw in the legislative system. Laws are only passed to favor the constituents. What happens if a serious social issue happens to be CAUSED by the constituents? A lot of conflicted politicians, that's what. So most likely they won't end up blaming their own constituents, even if it is the best solution to a problem.

To repeat a statement I made once before.....

"I don't know whether to laugh or cry."

The complete and utter stupidity behind their arguments are just ridiculous. It's the SAME CRAP! The same crap over and over! It's this terrifying loop of political crap which blinds them from basic truths! I'm so frustrated with politicians right now I can't even bring myself to point out the inaccuracy and base misconceptions about the ESRB. I'll let someone else do the math right now. I'm done.

@ Clintonparents/guardians to allow their children to act out each of the many graphic torture scenes and murders, using rudimentary actions that are at best a very rough approximation of the actual actions being depicted.'"

FIFY

If the ESRB has to play through an entire game to assign it a rating, then the politicians should have to play through it as well before they're allowed to complain about it. I'd love to see "Review: Manhunt 2 by Joe Lieberman" on Joystiq someday.

Four "Bible Thumpers".

Dude, you've set the bar quite high!

One argument about the Rights of the people to make demands of their government because of disagreements is the idea of "majority rule".

"Majority rule" and "Democracy" sound all well and good. EXCEPT...

People don't realize the idea of a "winner" and a "loser".

If the "winners" are those who support, in one fashion or another, censorship of things they don't like or the forcing of their own personal/religious beliefs upon others. The "losers" loose their Rights to their own Freedom of Speech, their own Rights to their own personal/religious beliefs, and are denied other Rights as the case may be.

However, if the roles of "winner"/"loser" were reversed:
Those who "lost" still retain their own personal/religious beliefs, and are still allowed to not HAVE to participate in that which they do not agree with. And the "winners" still retain their own Freedom of Speech, as well as are allowed to enjoy their own personal/religious beliefs without requiring the "losers" to participate, and so on.

The fact is, when it comes down to it, this amounts to demands that one segment of US society must give up a portion of their Rights because another group believes that, while they, themselves don't have to participate, that NO ONE ELSE has the Right to participate either. It's the same with a great many controversial issues.

"Majority Rules" has long since been an idea of subjegating others to a form of dictatorship over the "minority". Offering one's opinions is one thing. Making demands that other's Rights (through petitions among other activities) is the attempt to subjegate a group of individuals who participate in something the "majority" chooses not to.

The ESRB HAS being doing it right, right enough anyway, as they are not the end-all-be-all resource for individuals or Parents any more than the MPAA rating system or the TV rating systems are the end-all-be-all ratings systems for their media. Even the MPAA rating system went through changes over time, but the government shouldn't be dictating what is or is not appropriate for the individual or anyone else's children. The government needs to stop playing politics with the Rights of citizens, changing and interpreting those Rights as a campaign sees fit. If anyone is guilty of causing confusion with the rating systems, it's the politicians.

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

Here's your review:

What you thought the ESRB consisted of:

A bunch of ratings that mean nothing, and an AO rating that should be applied to any game you believe shouldn't be sold to kids because you're a horrible parent who can't read ratings.

What the ESRB consists of:

eC: Early Childhood. Hardly ever used because the intended age group would rather chew the controller.

E: Everyone. VERY minimal objectional content. the G rating of video games.

E 10+: Everyone age 10 or above. Minimal objectional content. The PG (PARENTAL GUIDANCE!!!!) rating of video games.

T: Teen. some objectional content. typically suggestive themes and violence ranging from moderate to somwhat strong. The PG-13 (PARENTAL GUIDANCE!!!!) of video games.

M: M-A-T-U-R-E. Mature. 17+. The R (RESTRICTED!) of video games. NOT intended for children. I repeat, NOT INTENDED FOR CHILDREN. PARENTAL DISCRETION is advised.

AO: Adults Only. The NC-17 of video games. Has to have VERY brutal violence, or strong sexual content. the nudity/sexual content line is far more strict for M/AO than it is for R/NC-17.

In fact, video game ratings in general are far more strict than movie ratings. The Xenosaga series is a prime example of 3 games that got royally and in some cases pointlessly butchered in their western localizations in order to recieve a rating of Teen instead of Mature.

@ All

GameDevMitch has the right idea. I will further his "letter writin'" campaign with sending the Clinton camp a message that they just lost your vote for focusing on a non-issue while the United States has PLENTY of other issues that should be much higher on a politician's list. Make sure they understand you're educated and see the executive office being there for someone who understands how to prioritize. Personally I'd throw in a jab about terrorism being a little higher on the list than the ESRB being reviewed for a game that should be restricted to what? 21 and older?

This statement was made to get more voters to vote for her by hitting on what is seen as a winning situation since who would EVER question an action done for "the children".

I feel we all need to remind her we're not kids anymore. We have the power to vote and we're intending to use that power to rate her AO for the United States Gov't.

Ah polibaiting....nothign like a good round of vote pandering to make one feel sick and disgusted.

Austin Lewis
If one has no gun one can not hunt steak, if one has no steak one needs no knife!

Well I guess we're all voting for Barack Obama. Thanks for making my decision, Mrs. "The Hill"!

Oh, and Blogs4Brownback needs to lampoon this. IMMEDIATELY.

I firmly believe we ALL need to respond to Presidential hopeful Hilary Clinton since we all impact her when it comes to the Presidency. If you're in the districts of those senators who co-authored this letter let them know you vote and they've just stepped on a political landmine.

@ GameDevMitch

You're completely right. I've already responded to my legislators and let them know that this kind of move for votes is not acceptable. However since I'm in Microsoft and Nintendo country I'm pretty sure I'm preaching to the choir.

Oh yeah a video game is the biggest problem facing America today, but riddle me this Batman(not Jack) how come when an equally if not worse movie comes out it is okay, but when a game lik this comes out, oh its World War 3 plus Armaggedon.
M does not mean kids!


-DarthCylon

I guess the biggest issue for me is that these politicians (Hold on, I need to shower now...) make big grandiose blanket statements that don't hold true even a majority of the time. Then, they refuse to acknowledge they don't know anything about the topic they are ranting about, and then even more so, refuse to get any real information about the topic.

It also bothers me that short of cornering Clinton or any of the other candidates in a room and making them listen (which is a feat in an of itself, I think a requirement to be in politics is the ability to ignore your constituents unless in presence of large amounts of green), there's not a damn thing I can do about it, other than sit here and watch these people take away my rights, a decent part of my social life, and my one true escape I have from this world that they, have vastly 'effed up, but somehow manage to blame it on everyone else...

*sigh*

You know, you just have to LOVE the logic behind this...
Video Games are "kid toys" and only kids, or immature adults (or the mentally insane) therefore play them.
Any video game sold is therefore sold to kids.
AO means Adults Only, the rating that ESRB made to distinguish between games for Adults (ie: not sold), and for Kids (ie: sold).
When Manhunt 2 was AO, it protected Kids, was marked for Adults Only (and therefore was not to be sold).
When the ESRB reduced Manhunt 2's rating to something not AO, it became something that could be sold, and therefore was for Kids.

More or less.

Yes...the Wii teaches to stab, just play Resident Evil 4 on it, half the "motions" are swinging side to side.

@ Xlorep DarkHelm

Your logic works for me. I am certain there are some that beleive only kids and adults with holes in their brains buy and play games. Odd that the gaming industry brings in hundreds of million a year isn't it? Someone (like me for instance) might beleive that there are some people out there that want a part of that income and would threaten to say... oh sqeeze off certain titles unless they get it.

Speaking you understand as one of those unstable adults... which reminds me. I need to be pick up Mass Effect today. Bye bye sleep and greymatter for the next few days ;)

Has our government forgotten that they gained independence from Britain some 231 years ago? Also:


“permits children to act out each of the many graphic torture scenes and murders.”


Ugh. Now I feel compelled to write a letter to these jokers. It still has not pierced their skulls that M rated games are for adults as much as R rated movies are for adults. If someone said "Oh my god! Saw is too violent for children!" these officials would likely say, "Of course, its not for children."

And another classic flip-flop from those who have (D) after their name on TV. Is someone's poll numbers slipping, Hitlery? Tsk, tsk, Lieberman, I thougt you had given up on the current crop 'o D's (I like to call them Wafflemasters).

@ BaronJuJu

I have to disagree with this taking a back burner after the elections are over in November of next year. That depends on the political landscape. If, say, the war in Iraq goes VERY south and H. Clinton gets elected as the next President then this "issue" may very well come up again. She'll spearhead legislation or an investigation into the ESRB simply to deflect blame and criticism about how the war effort is going. It's exactly what she's doing now as a front runner. As others here have already stated she's doing this to get more support from conservatives and parents who want to deflect their idiotic parenting on something else. From a political perspective "for the children" is a win-win in the voting pools. Until someone shows that "for the children" when it's complete garbage is unacceptable and costs them votes it will continue to be used.

*sigh* Sad, sad state of politics.

And this is exactly the reason why I think the ESRB is foolish to not take a pro-active stance against the threats facing gaming. The ESRB is ignorant to think that what has happened in the past with other media, will happen again. It is always possible that this time the politicians will be able to legislate the industry, despite the First Amendment. It is just getting beyond annoying that the industry seems to care more about piracy than about this issue. They expect it blow over, but one may never know, anything can happen.

Also, sure people shouldn't be voting for senators with such bad ideas, but the fact of the matter is that 99 % of the politicians are idiots. More Americans seem to get disgruntled with their political system of basically only two distinct parties, but more than that isn't that great either. Politicians, in my opinion, usually have no clue what is important for a country and what isn't. They only care about scoring points, no matter the political system. So you can decide to not vote for a certain senator or presidential candidate, but there usually is no real choice, it is a choice between the lesser of evils. You can decide to not choose at all, but you will, no matter what, get someone as a senator, governor, president, etc who will do something you are in total disagreement with. That is another reason why the industry shouldn't take a wait-and-see approach. They can't count on the fact that they will face the same outcome as comic books, movies, etc.

You can rant and rave all you want, but these politicians only listen when they get letters and emails from their constituents. Imagine how terrified Hillary's campaign would be if she's flooded with emails and letters from angry gamers. She's trying to look moderate and conservative to win few soccer mom votes but unless we act, they'll continue to stomp all over us like we don't even exist!

@ Dan

Precisely. Email away... You can't SPAM a legislator. They're required by law to take your email, mail, and phone calls.

Fax is good too! You want to hear directly from your representative? Easiest way is to make up a fax letter and sent it to a bunch of your friends and all fax to your heart's content. You'll get a call first asking you to stop jamming up their fax machine. Explain why you're doing it and keep doing it. Eventually the representative will contact you.

Oh and one thing I will say. They do listen, but only when you aren't a single voice in the dark.

http://clinton.senate.gov/email_form.html

Hillary Clinton's e-mail page. You know, I don't think she's a bad person, but I do think she is hugely ignorant and misinformed on this matter.

Anyways, to people who are going to e-mail, KEEP IT POLITE AND READABLE. If you just "spam" her with badly written rants, that doesn't really reflect well on gamers and all...

(I'm at work now, but I'll probably send an e-mail later.)

Theoretically, what do they expect to do with these finds? THere's nothing they can do, which makes it a waste of taxpayer money to investigate.

All the money being wasted on these schemes could be saved with a much cheaper, faster, and less labour-intensive option. Say, hand-carving a letter into a gold plate detailing the ESRB ratings and instructions on how to use parental controls, then delivering it by helicopter to all owners of the Big Three consoles.

@dabomb

What is wrong with reviewing the rating system? Aren’t alot of you the same people who say the children are protected by the system? If people want to tighten or loosen the ratings then so be it.

Because the government doesn't have the right to censor media? The rating system is the industry's not the government. Not to mention the children are already quite well protected as the game they're complaining about in this case is rated for young adults and older. In the odd case that people younger than that happened to play it, it's a parenting problem, not an industry problem.

I have a very strong feeling that this is only the beginning.

@Vinzent

Say Fox News! PLEASE SAY FOX NEWS!!

Someone needs to alert the 4chan community about this. If anyone on the Internet has influence, it's them.

SPAM THE POLITICIANS WITH VALID, THOUGHT-OUT ARGUEMENTS! AND SOURCES! ...AND PROPER GRAMMAR!

But please, NO pr0n.

"‘We have consistently urged parents to pay attention to the ESRB rating system. We must ensure that parents can rely on the consistency and accuracy of those ratings.’

Translation:

‘We have consistently assured parents that the ESRB only rates games for kids, even ones they claim are only for 17+. We must ensure that parents can rely on the consistency and accuracy of those ratings, so they can continue to ignore them.’

I seriously want to stand at the store and find these people who were so bamboozled by the ESRB’s “fake” ratings of 17+ on Manhunt 2, that they actually bought it for their kids. Or allowed it to be played in their house under some kind of weird assumption that 17+ doesn’t actually mean 17+. (this excludes any parent who read the description/ratings, and decided that their kid was mature enough to handle it)

Just so I can slap them.



Can i Slap them right after your done...this makes you wonder what kind of crap these idiots are going to pull once gta 4 is close to release..and god help anyone who attempts to keep me from buying that one...

Has anyone heard any actual discussion of how they think the rating system should actually work?

Playing each game in its entirety is economically infeasible. The length of some games can be 60-70 hours and the average reviewer may not have the skills to finish the game in even that time. Requiring actual play of all games would push out release dates by possibly as much as a few months, this is not reasonable as every day a game does not ship is a day that a game company is not making money. Many smaller game companies can go out of business this way in a matter of weeks or even days!

i dont think they really care because as long as the esrb reviews the games in there minds its pretty much a way of making it so no one at all can play the game..Hell I'm on the third disc of blue dragon and havent finished it yet and already at 97 hours...so imagine how long a game like that would take the esrb...

only reason they want to get the esrb to pull this crap is because that way they win and gta doesnt get played at all

cant we just let bill run again??

Ah, yes, yet another person to bring up the BBFC descision. As I said in another place, if you're going to bring up UK standards to make a point, you shouldn't pick and choose. Mass Effect, with it's "Lesbian Sex Scene", got a 12 rating in the UK. But I don't think you'll see many politicians mentioning that and saying the ESRB should have only given the game a T.

Of course, there's a chance that Rockstar could win its Manhunt 2 appeal in the UK, and if that happens, there's also a chance, that the unedited version could be given a rating. If by some weird series of events that happens, I wonder how quickly Politicians will stop bringing up the UK.

How many politicians aren't there around? It's a fair bet that some of them are going to be morons. Stupid is as stupid does.

Step one, create straw man.


step two, tell peasants straw man is the problem.

step three, allow peasants to distroy straw man.

@ relax guy
Step 4: rinse and repeat.



Just because a politician praised you last week doesn't mean they won't damn you the next week. I'd rather see a thorough review of how the secretive & cabalish MPAA works.

I WAS going to be pissed, but then I realized that they are just sending a scolding letter.

From the looks of it, they aren't going to legislate, they are just upset and expressing concern. I'm A-O-Fuckin K with that

(I just realized a made a pun... Tehehe)

And yes, if this is just a CONCERNED LETTER it is at least SUCH a pointless political manuever as to not matter in the least.

The election year has already begun. Expect Flag Burning Amendment and English as the official language votes any day now. Hey, if Congress can hold a vote on how much they hate a newspaper ad, they can schedule a vote for damn near anything.

The sad thing about this dust up is that it will do 2 things: 1) it will promote a climate where truly edgy games with sophisticated adult themes will be trashed for a new pile of mediocre arcadey FPS's 2) it will drive Manhunt 2's sales through the roof.

Games with a sadistic gimmick are usually no fun and extremely boring. They are just put out there to drive the outrage machine and ARE marketed to kids like cigarettes. There's a part of me that wishes that this strategy didn't work for Rockstar every single time. But gullible parents seem to be always out there willing to buy this type of game for their child.

Hillary better watch out though. She hasn't won a damn thing yet and she is already trying to run to the right. See what Democrats did to Lieberman in the primary last year and hope that it happens to Hillary (unlike Holy Joe she wouldn't then run in the general).

Hillary looks like she's got heartburn... or constipation.

@Solidsnark "We're Americans and we don't do censorship."

Sorry, but that made me lol.
You realize that the US ranks pretty midrange as far as censorship issues and freedom of the press on a global scale, right?

Anyway, this is ridiculous, and really, I hope people start to take action, because this building tension between politics and the games industry needs to end. If I were a U.S. citizen I'd write a letter or something - as it stands all I can really do north of the border is watch in dismay.

Seriously, I think this issue has been going on long enough. Isn't it time for society to find a new scapegoat?

Why doesn't anyone care that content far more graphic than any M or AO rated game appears in movies which are much more easily accessible to children?

And changing laws about this won't change anything. The children who's parents would buy Manhunt for them before will still buy it for them after. Go after the people with shoddy parenting skills, not the game manufacturers.

The Wii remote plays a factor in this? Really? Do these suits even realize that A: to "hack" Manhunt and remove the filter from the execution scenes (which are NO different from those in first game from what I've seen) requires a method that, you know, does not work on the Wii at all? Oh, yeah, and the Wii version of the game, like all others, is rated M, meaning the industry does not think children should be playing it - again, those that do are either deemed mature enough by their parents to handle it or raised by parents shitty enough to not give a damn in the first place.

And that bill about playing games through to completion - what the hell.
I'm sure all the old farts in the senate don't get this, most of them having never so much as touched a game controller, but someone needs to cue them in to how impossible this is. First off, with simple variant factors such as AI, playing through the same game twice should generate different experiences. Second off, games with massive amounts of content such as, say, Assassin's Creed, can easily take over 40 hours to play through. For just one game of many that publishers release each year. Now take a game that big and add to it the possibility of user-generated content, a-la Oblivion, and you have another problem with this crackpot decree, because you can't take into account content for the game that users -might- create in the future. Let's add to this games that receive periodic updates, like World of Warcraft - hey, let's throw in the variation that comes with online play while we're at it, too.
We've suddenly accumulated so many thousands upon thousands of hours needed to test each and every game - none of them can receive ratings and nothing can be released. Ever. Or developers go back to simple point-a-to-point-b-platformers with kiddy-friendy 8-bit graphics and no hidden items or areas and no deviations from the storyline, to play it safe. Oh, right, and no Wiimote

Seriously, don't US politicians have better things to do, like worry about the state of the American dollar or one of the worst health care systems in the developed world?

Sorry I went off on a rant there - but this is my cry for help to all of you people south of the (Canadian) border - stop the madness before it continues!

You know, when I think about how they say the Wii version teaches you how to maim people because you are 'acting' things out it makes me realize how ignorant they really are.

An example: teach a 4 year old how to tie a knot without using laces or string, but rather act out the motions as you normally would when you are doing it. If you can teach anyone who to tie anything but a granny knot that way you qualify and being an absolute genius. That same holds true with Manhunt, if anyone can learn how to mutilate another person by what is nothing but glorified shadow boxing it would be a miracle of Freddy Kruger proportions. It's the same reason why marital artist don't just shadow box to learn punches and blocks, or why combat soldiers use dummy knifes to practice hand to hand combat with each other. In order to do something that is an physically demanding as that you need to be in direct contact with another person, not some 'ghost' of your imagination.

Of course, as Hillary is so anti-millitary she might say that the game is teaching another generation of kids to be professional baby killers...

"Which i can tell you, has far more violence, and full frontal nudity, not to mention.. a whole side game of screwing women in it."

The Witcher truly isn't that violent. I haven't played Manhunt but I have played GTA which is far worse. Also, the American version is censored when it comes to the "nudity". And well the screwing of the women is hardly even shown.

But anyway, I don't get it why those stupid politicians are so ignorant when it comes to games. They moan about being able to train with the "advances" in controllers, yet children are known to play with toy guns, super soakers, paintball and can go to a shooting range together with their parents. The politicians in America have no right to say anything about being able to train using a gun with a video game when they allow kids to train at shooting ranges with real guns.

The ESRB failed trying to curry political favor, it is time they go into the attack. They can't allow this to go on, because sooner or later one media may lose the battle, it is all possible. It is time to once and for all to stop all this misinformation about video games. It is time for the ESRB to become pro-active on this issue. The future of, especially online games is bleak when the politicians aren't being dealt with. Whenever the US may some day have a rating where games have to played fully before being rated, it will also affect the rest of the world. I most certainly refuse to pay extra for games, just because of parents' inability to read the rating. It is really not too hard to see the M on the box, accompanied with 17 +. What is so hard to understand when the box states "17+"?

@ metroidprimegmr

We are not your personal army. GTFO my internets!

Having said that, the only time that I'm aware of 4chan having any real influence outside the internet (other then the Football fiasco) is a couple of months ago when /b/ helped the FBI hunt down some shooter in... Minnesota I think? Of course this Anonymous may be wrong, but I am but one of many.

Besides, all our well thoughtout arguements can easily be ignored. Just ask Bush (or any other polititian for that matter).

"hilaryduffgta Says:

November 20th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
cant we just let bill run again?? "

Monica would vote for him... under the table. :O

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

@chadachada

So, you'd cut out a huge part of the Constitution (the definition and formation of the Legislative Branch of government), but then expect people to *know* the Constitution?

@aspeaker

I wouldn't worry about it. I doubt Hillary we be the democratic nominee. Someone I know made an interesting observation once. He basically said the 2008 election will be the "anyone-but-bush" camp, against the "anyone-but-hillary" camp. Given that is the case, I'd say Barak Obama is most likely in - long as he plays his cards right.

I would like to see these people play pong or tetris to the end.

How to you play games to the end if they have no end?

Paradox?

@hilaryduffgta

cant we just let bill run again?? ”

Nope. After FDR got himself elected 4 times in a row, it was decided to put a limit on how many terms a president could serve. 22nd amendment.

I guess that's what you get when older generations not used to seeing such things get a tummy ache every time they see a video game.

Check out those people. I bet most of them are quite old and/or had no real childhood. If there actually were people doing politics who have played videogames a lot in the past, or are right now, we'd have much less incompetent policies.

You know... I'm pretty sure that the reason we have senators isn't to pull bullshit like this.

@Gray17

WOO! Max Power in 2008!

(Sorry, simpsons joke.)

Having played all the Grand Theft Auto Games, and having owned Manhunt 1 and 2, i can tell you the Witcher is far far more violent, its not censored, and I certainly love chopping peoples heads/arms and well them in half.

By the way, the euro version of the Witcher can be downloaded by anyone who wants it. you simply go to a euro site and pay the cash for it.

Its akin to doing what Jack the noob whines about, ordering stuff online with a credit card.

The only reason Manhunts already censored piece of crap gets any attention, is because its made by Rockstar.. thats it..

Having the first female president ain't worth all this crap.

[...] Some of you may have heard that the Beatles of Anti-game politicians have released another track.  Clinton, Lieberman, Bayh, and Brownback have decided that the ESRB needs to be investigated in the wake of their decision to re-rate Manhunt 2 M from AO.  Their rationale?  The BBFC didn’t rate Manhunt 2 after it was given the modified version. [...]

The bottom line:

Lieberman's a hypocrite since he once called the ESRB "the best rating system in the entire entertainment industry".

And as far as Hillary Clinton goes, the day that gargoyle actually becomes President(it won't be this or any other election), is the day I'll admit she has some feminine qualities.

remember guys we are the one who will be electing these people in office very soon.... so if they are want our votes they have to hear us first, instead of ranting on with there wild comments.

monolithic: "…you mean as opposed to a Gonzales who will throw rights out the window on the grounds of “executive privilege” without so much as a judicial review?"

No. Not opposed to. Just like that. Gonzalez, the Bushes, and Clintons are all cut from the same authoritarian cloth as far as I'm concerned. Since '89, they've alternately picked apart different parts of the Constitution, and passed the power along for the next to abuse and build on. If the bait-and-switch dynasty is allowed to continue much longer, we'll be living in a monarchy.

L: "The Republicans are.. ..anti-gun-control"

Umm, since when is being against the infringement of a right guaranteed by the Constitution considered antithetical to freedom?

The 2008 elections are going to be one of those "They both suck ass, but voting for anyone else is a waste" elections again, aren't they...

[...] “Some US Senate members sent a letter to the ESRB asking for ‘your consideration of whether it is time to review the robustness, reliability and repeatability of your ratings process, particularly for this genre of ‘ultraviolent’ video games and the advances in game controllers,’ the senators wrote. ‘We have consistently urged parents to pay attention to the ESRB rating system. We must ensure that parents can rely on the consistency and accuracy of those ratings.’ The group of lawmakers were concerned that Manhunt 2 was only given an ‘M’ rating and instead feel that it should have the ‘AO’ rating — a rating that only 23 other games have been given and a rating that would cause Sony & Nintendo to restrict it from being released on their consoles.” [...]

@Jade Critic

"I wouldn’t worry about it. I doubt Hillary we be the democratic nominee. Someone I know made an interesting observation once. He basically said the 2008 election will be the “anyone-but-bush” camp, against the “anyone-but-hillary” camp. Given that is the case, I’d say Barak Obama is most likely in - long as he plays his cards right."

somehow i see your friend being right about how the campaigns are shapping out, you know eventually someone is going to have to tell Hilary that Bush isn't running again....

I would just like to say that in Italy, people are taught to speak Italian from an early age. America should seriously consider reassessing its stance on teaching children English at school in light of this discovery.

I do not waste over a third of my salary on income and payroll taxes so that MEDDLESOME IDIOTS like Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman can pontificate over whether or not the ESRB is "doing its job". Don't these idiots know that there's a war on?

Now it is a known fact that self policing doesn't work. M rated games sold to minors, lead-tainted toys from China being sold by Mattel and stores worldwide, and don't forget the Aquadots recall that was done because the toys were tainted with a chemical found in the date-rape drug. I am afraid to buy my 4 year old sister some toys for Christmas because of the recalls. I had started my own video game rating site because of my distrust of the ESRB. My site is run by me, a 23 year old PC technician in Baltimore, MD that is not getting paid by the industry. Here is the link:
http://bensreratings.blogspot.com
Ben

Actually, the best thing for the industry would be for the Senate to pass some kind of legislation setting up a government run rating system. That is the fastest way to get the ESRB out of the picture.

They can't grant the ESRB (a private entity) any legal power because of something called the nondelegation doctrine. So, they can't really tell them what to do or pass laws saying that you have to listen to the ESRB. So, they will need to set up their own system.

Any second year law student can tell you that it is exceedingly difficult, and often impossible to legislate content. So, Congress makes their own system and the ESRB goes away. Then, the next step is for someone to institute a legal challenge to the government rating system (and because everyone sues the government, it will probably happen immediately). Then no more rating system.

As it stands right now, we have to wait around until the big developers grow some balls and say they aren't submitting their games to the ESRB. That would probably take years. But if Take Two, and two or three other big players stood their ground on this, they could probably break the ESRB.

I don't know why everyone takes Congress so seriously on this stuff. The first ammendment really takes the wind out of their sales. So, if I were at Take Two and Senator Clinton called me up while on the rag, I would tell her to shut the fuck up and get the facelift she so desparately needs.

FTA-They argue that the Wiimote "permits children to act out each of the many graphic torture scenes and murders."

Why the FUCK are the Senators even letting their children play a MATURE REATED game? I know there are incredibly stupid parents out there, but that's the parents fault, not the game.

[...] Presidental hopefuls dig deep to tug at the mother vote, by picking on the ESRB for no reason other than they don’t donate: [...]

its called @#$%ing freadom of god damn speach if you dont like the @#$%ing game dont play it!!!!!!!