Text of Senators' Manhunt 2 Protest Letter to ESRB

Text of Senators' Manhunt 2 Protest Letter to ESRB

November 23, 2007
As GamePolitics reported this week, four U.S. Senators sent a letter on Monday to the ESRB calling for a review of the video game industry's content rating system in the wake of the Manhunt 2 controversy.

The bipartisan effort included Democrats Hillary Clinton, Joe Lieberman and Evan Bayh as well as Republican Sam Brownback.

ABC's Jake Tapper has published the letter on his blog and GP has pasted the full version below.

By the way, our request for comment from the ESRB received only this back from a spokesman:
We've received the letter and will be responding. 

It's unclear whether the ESRB's response will be made public or in private meetings with the senators. Without further ado, here's the letter:

Patricia Vance
President Entertainment Software Rating Board
Entertainment Software Rating Board
317 Madison Avenue, 22nd Floor
New York, NY 10017

Dear Ms. Vance,

We are writing to suggest that it may be desirable to revise or enhance the current ESRB rating system. We continue to believe that the ESRB takes seriously its responsibility with respect to the ratings and their enforcement. However, we believe that a number of issues have been raised regarding the release of Manhunt 2.

As you know, in June 2007 the British Board of Film Classification (BBFC) refused to rate Rockstar's Manhunt 2 video game, effectively banning its sale in British stores, stating that it contains "unremitting bleakness and callousness of tone... which constantly encourages visceral killing with exceptionally little alleviation or distancing." The BBFC Director concluded that any other action "would involve a range of unjustifiable harm risks, to both adults and minors." Consistent with your British counterpart, this version received an "Adults Only" (AO) rating from your Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB).

In October 2007 the BBFC again refused to rate a revised Manhunt 2 stating that "[t]he impact of the revisions on the bleakness and callousness of tone, or the essential nature of the gameplay, is clearly insufficient. There has been a reduction in the visual detail in some of the 'execution kills', but in others they retain their original visceral and casually sadistic nature." Other countries agreed and have also banned the game.

Unlike the British Board, the ESRB reduced the revised version's rating to "Mature" (M) effectively opening the door to its widespread distribution and its licensing approval by game system manufacturers Sony and Nintendo. And, while significant progress has been made, the FTC reports that 42 percent of unaccompanied children 13 to 16 years of age can still successfully purchase M-rated games meaning that the practical difference between an AO and M rating affects more than simply 17-yearolds.

Manhunt 2 was sanctioned by Nintendo for its Wii system. That system permits children to act out each of the many graphic torture scenes and murders in Manhunt 2 rather than simply manipulating a game pad. This led one clinical psychologist to state that the realistic motions used with the Wii mean that "you're basically teaching a child the behavioral sequencing of killing." While this was not cited as the reason for the BBFC decision, we do believe that the ESRB should take the Wii remote controller, and future advances in game controllers, which create more realistic gaming environments, into consideration.

Another disturbing aspect of this saga is that the AO version ended up being leaked on the Internet thereby circumventing the rating restrictions. News reports state that the leak came from a Sony employee, who was reportedly fired, rather than the game manufacturer. Nevertheless, the possible use of the internet to circumvent the ESRB and permit broad access to kids is another concern.

There are many questions that are raised because of the above cited issues regarding the process, robustness and repeatability of the ratings provided by the ESRB system. First, there appears to be a lack of information, to the public and developers, regarding why a particular rating is given or changed. What information is provided back to developers after receiving a rating? Why is information regarding rating changes or reasons for decisions unavailable, except for content descriptors, to the public? We understand to some extent the concerns regarding the confidentiality of pre-released materials however that argument is no longer compelling after the product is released.

Some speculate that the ESRB could be used to provide attention to increase sales of future games. Under this scenario, a game like Manhunt 2 would first be produced to ensure receipt of an AO rating and thereafter tweaked to get the reduced M rating. A more transparent process might protect the ESRB from being used in this manner.

Further, do the same reviewers view the original and the revised version of a game after an AO rating is received? How frequently do you use more than your minimum of three reviewers when evaluating a game? Are three reviewers adequate for the more violent games? How often do your reviewers disagree in their initial ratings and how frequently is the final rating a majority opinion rather than a consensus?

In sum, we ask your consideration of whether it is time to review the robustness, reliability and repeatability of your ratings process, particularly for this genre of "ultraviolent" video games and the advances in game controllers. We have consistently urged parents to pay attention to the ESRB rating system. We must ensure that parents can rely on the consistency and accuracy of those ratings.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Sincerely,

Joseph I. Lieberman
United States Senator

Sam Brownback
United States Senator

Evan Bayh
United States Senator

Hillary Rodham Clinton
United States Senator

Comments

if Manhunt 2 wasn't by Rockstar, would it have this much attention?
answer: no
It is bothersome that they base so much their arguement on what the BBFC did. Different country, different rules. Is this so deep that it is beyond understanding?

Then the paragraph:

Some speculate that the ESRB could be used to provide attention to increase sales of future games. Under this scenario, a game like Manhunt 2 would first be produced to ensure receipt of an AO rating and thereafter tweaked to get the reduced M rating. A more transparent process might protect the ESRB from being used in this manner.

Bah. Its was the people that were trying to bash the game that drew the extra attention and the added sales not the ESRB. As for a more transparent process.... sounds to me that they are saying "We want to read over your shoulder and have the right to overrule you"

On the topic if 3 reviewers are enough. I would almost be tempted to agree. Except the question begs. If they agree they need more people to give a "fair" review of certain games who is going to pay for it?
For f**** sake, the Wii controls are far from realistic, these people are just beyond stupid.

If a kid under 17 buys this game, it's not the ESRB or the company that made the game fault, it's either the parents(If there the ones that bought it for them) or the store(For not taking into consideration the kids age.
Openly asking for censorship by politicians in the US ?
There is SO much wrong with that.

Also, When the frick did the US start to care about how OTHER countries rate their games ?
@BlackIce

No...I'll just vote for Obama *which is what I'm gonna do anyhow*
@pandralisk

cherry picker.
Well, now that we've reached a consensus, I'm willing to elaborate.
First off, when I said "a religion, by the way, that has nothing to do with Satan," I was referring to the segment of Satanism that really doesn't have anything to do with Satan. And when I said that was closed-minded, I was referring to the statement "I saw a documentary about it, so why should I bother?" Saying that, to me, is just the same as saying "I don't need to learn anything about that, I already know everything I need to" which is an incredibly closed-minded thing to say in my opinion.
People are going to be angry with me when I say this, but I actually LIKE it when congress men/women/its/people do this.



They are doing the right thing for once. They may be extremely misguided. they may not know diddely shit about videogames. They may not have ever even played a videogame or see any footage of the game. Regardless, they are NOT legislating. They are acting on their concerns without doing anything but a nice peaceful protest. I like it when people protest. Unlike previous efforts, they are not attempting to kill our rights.
No time to read through all the comments but wanted to say this anyway:

Another disturbing aspect of this saga is that the AO version ended up being leaked on the Internet thereby circumventing the rating restrictions. News reports state that the leak came from a Sony employee, who was reportedly fired, rather than the game manufacturer. Nevertheless, the possible use of the internet to circumvent the ESRB and permit broad access to kids is another concern.


The ESRB cannot, I repeat, cannot do anything about games released on the internet. They cannot put an armed guard in every game office in the world to prevent leaks of games. It is impossible for the ESRB to do this.

What is it with these politicians and asking the ESRB to perform impossible tasks? They need to grow up and do something important.

I do not want to see Hilary as president. I will campaign against her at all times. She will not become President.
@Mr. Jack
"Unlike previous efforts, they are not attempting to kill our rights."

politicians always try to scare you into doing what they want before trying to use the law to trample over the rights of the people.
@Tyler Baumbarger

The thing is, X-rated movies aren't something done by the MPAA. Their highest rating is NC-17, and plenty of stores that refuse to stock AO rated games will cheerfully stock NC-17 movies, or unrated directors cuts of what were R rated movies in theaters.
[...] As GamePolitics
The ERSB had better not touch Manhunt 2.

Political Bastards..
What it should say is:

"We don't want to bother with teaching the adults and parents about games, so we're leaving the babysitting to you, but you have to babysit them our way."
How I wish the ESRB would reply by pointing out the faults in this "fearsome foursome"'s letter:

1. Manhunt 2 was re-rated Mature due to RockStar's edits.
2. It's M (17+) - This is not even supposed to be for kids!

Bah - the more they try to be moralist, the more these senators show their ignorance.
I think they raise some excellent questions in their letter. I'd like to see a more transparent process to the rating system as well, both as a consumer and as a parent. Fortunately having grown up with video games and the advent of the ESRB, I already know what is and is not appropriate for my child based on those ratings. Furthermore, I can also make my own decisions based on my own beliefs of what is and is not appropriate while using the ESRB as an initial guide. I'd like to be able to trust the ESRB even more than I do now.

I'd like to see the system improved before the government gets it's way and manages to pass legislation restricting sales much in the same way the Brits do now. I don't need the government to tell me what's good for my child, I can do that myself, but I need to know I can trust the ESRB's ratings system.
To every US Citizen:
Can you PLEASE dump the four politicians who signed this letter OUT?

They don't deserve their jobs!
-Jes-:

I wish we could, as a matter of fact one of those *censored* is running for president. *Shakes head* She, as well as the others need to mind their own business, and frankly, if I was working in the ESRB and got that letter, into the trash/paper shredder it goes.
This is actually a fairly well-worded letter, to be honest. However, the fatal flaw here lies in the reasoning.
The first problem is that they assume that if it's a game, children will play it. If you're a parent and you buy this for a child, we've got far more serious concerns, and if a child buys it on his own, the person at the cash register SHOULD have told him no. If they didn't, then that was a serious lapse of judgment on their part. But even then, a parent should be able to see that little Timmy got a new game and it's got "M" and "Rated mature. Ages 17+" right on the cover.
Another problem comes from their complaints about the leak. First off, what the hell does that have to do with the ESRB? They can't control how company employees act. Even ignoring the fact that if a child was smart enough to figure out how to get the Ao version to work, they're probably smart enough to seperate reality from fantasy, this is clearly the wrong place to state such a complaint.
Still, though, I think this controversy is really the industry's fault. If Sony and Nintendo had allowed Ao game to be played on their systems, and if retailers made it POSSIBLE to get the game (Is it so hard to have a bunch of Manhunt 2 stock in the back under a big sign that says "Sell this without carding and it's on your job," or something? They could probably even display it with the regular stock. Just high up. And with a warning that not carding for the product is going to result in serious problems.), Rockstar could have sold Manhunt 2 in its Ao form and wouldn't have tried to appeal the rating (I seriously doubt that the real reason they wanted M-rated Manhunt 2 was because it was the wrong rating. In fact, the only thing that makes sense is that they couldn't sell it at an M rating.). As far as I can tell, the only thing that's got the critics so ticked is that they brought it from Ao to M, so there wouldn't be a problem.
(On a side note, if you consider the volume of games released, playing through EACH and EVERY one to completion is virtually impossible.)
@-Jes-:

Would love to comply, but none are in my jurisdiction. I'm doing my part to campaign against Hillary in her presidential bid, though.
We all know that one letter will not do anything all four of them would have to write about a thousand letters to get their point across. But it doesn't really matter anyway the game is out its got an accetable rating. There is no going back now.
I still can't believe Hillary is using this as her bid for presidency.

Economy's falling, education's at a lull, the country's stooped in a war, but it's okay as long as we combat the EVIL OF VIDEO GAMES.

Seriously, what the hell? I thought the 2004 polls were bad...
The ERSB needs to educate a few politicians apparently, who feel that grandstanding is good behavior. It's a good thing my senators, Feinstein and Boxer aren't involved in this witch hunt, because I'd be writin' them a letter right about now...
Manhunt 2 was sanctioned by Nintendo for its Wii system. That system permits children to act out each of the many graphic torture scenes and murders in Manhunt 2 rather than simply manipulating a game pad."

This reoccurring statement is starting to piss me off... Why don't they say light guns can train kids on how to use REAL guns while they're at it. Because, we all know that anyone can become an expert marksman with a real weapon after playing Time Crisis for a while.

The bastards... I highly doubt my wimpy little wave to the left and right is really helping me with my murdering technique. Motions hardly require any fucking movement to register. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if these guys think you're actually murdering innocent people in this game for no reason...

And the fact that children can purchase games they are NOT ALLOWED to play in the first place isn't ESRB's fault or the game industry itself... Bloody hell, why is it only the game industry that has to put up with this bullshit. Movies exist too you know, most of which looks more realistic than these damn pixels I play with every day.
Whoops, meant to say "ESRB."
Memo to the Senators who wrote this letter:
Here are several pointers

1. The BBFC and the ESRB are independent from each other. Neither cares what the other does.

2. 42% failure of enforcement is a big drop from the last FTC report.

3. The Wii has parental controls. A caring, vigilant, and responsible parent would use them.

4. The ESRB has NO responsibility for what is leaked onto the Inernet.

5. Downloading the leaked version is a violation of federal law.

6. Under agreement with Rockstar and Take Two, they cannot tell what was cut from the game. A violation would more than likely result in a lawsuit. If any of you had a classified agreement with another group, you will understand.

7. What happened with this game happens a hell of a lot in the movie industry and with the MPAA.

8. Rockstar edited the game down to the Mature rating because they knew the AO version would not be sold by retailers and that the console owners (Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft) would not allow it on their systems.

9. The U.S.A. is an independent nation. We should not even care what other nations do with entertainment mediums.
>Some speculate that the ESRB could be used to provide attention to increase sales of future games. Under this scenario, a game like Manhunt 2 would first be produced to ensure receipt of an AO rating and thereafter tweaked to get the reduced M rating. A more transparent process might protect the ESRB from being used in this manner.

What?

Telling people about the games will cause less people to pay attention to games? Or have I missed the point?

/b
If people really want to keep Manhunt out of kids hands they should have petitioned Sony and Nintendo (and add Microsoft) to allow AO rated games on their systems and then petition stores to sell them. Problem solved.

Of course, when a kid still gets it because their inept parents buy it for them thinking AO stand for A-Okay (it was the best I could do quickly, give me a break) people will complain that the ESRB isn't doing its job. This is why I hate people.

It also irks me that these politicians don't want it to be rated M, they would rather have it stay at AO where nobody, not even a 45 year old adult could get it. How about instead of "protecting the children" you protect gamers rights.
"In sum, we ask your consideration of whether it is time to review the robustness, reliability and repeatability of your ratings process, particularly for this genre of “ultraviolent” video games and the advances in game controllers."

The response should read:

"In sum, no."
Can we ship those four who penned this letter to Brittan please? That is since they think the BBFC's decisions are infallible.
I'm so tempted to write a point-by-point response to these 4 senators, but I fear it'll just get passed off as some stupid video-game obsessed kid. Maybe if I mention that I'll be able to vote in the election...

:D
@arowe87

E: Extremly Boring
E10+: Extremly Boring times 10
T: Terrible
M: Mild
AO: A-Okay
This is actually a pretty good letter. They state facts and verifiable statistics, and suggest that the ESRB should consider the possibility that Wiimote control may affect the rating-ness of a game as much as, say, prerecorded FMV does in place of sprites. A good idea, though there's no saying that the ESRB *don't* do that now.

The letter weasels through some of the more common Jackisms but the summation is a question worth asking. Should the ESRB be more open, and should we consider why they reach the ratings they do?

"That system permits children[..]" HELLO. Sorry, you were doing so well until now. The only thing that permits children to do anything in games are the child's guardians. Also, as many have pointed out, saying that the BBFC banned something that the ESRB passed is, well, if anything a statement of *support* of the ESRB. It demonstrates that the ESRB re-rated the game under their own steam without influence of the BBFC or other bodies.
ok screw this e-mail writing. call them. call them once a day every day until they realize being censors and trampling the constitution is a bad idea.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton (D- NY) 202-224-4451

Senator Joseph I. Lieberman (ID- CT) 202-224-4041

Senator Evan Bayh (D- IN) 202-224-5623

Senator Sam Brownback (R- KS) 202-224-6521
oh noes!!! 18+ stuff may have but put in a game rated for 17 year olds quick someone save me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow...I mean, just...wow...

TK Says: "I’m so tempted to write a point-by-point response to these 4 senators, but I fear it’ll just get passed off as some stupid video-game obsessed kid. Maybe if I mention that I’ll be able to vote in the election…"

Same notion here...I was in military service, in the full hopes that when I made it back, I could enjoy the notions of freedom that I served so rigorously for...unfortunately, those freedoms halt at the gate of a game screen (for the sake of the children? WTF mate), or so certain politicians seem to believe.
Asking the ESRB to play through every pixel of a game to rate it is like asking the MPAA to be on the set of a movie every day to make sure it gets the correct rating. Some things just aren't possible, especially for non-profit organizations. Not to mention that with so many games coming out and going through the process of getting an ESRB rating, it would take far too much time and games would most likely hit the shelves with a "Rating Pending" for an indefinite amount of time, something the ESRB tries very hard and does a very good job to prevent.

And it should be pointed out that the raters at the ESRB do play the games. This does not mean they play them in depth, however. An in depth rating for a game would just be a giant review slapped on the back. The ESRB doesn't exist to give opinions about the game, just to create non-biased, age-related rankings. What the senators are proposing is that the ESRB become the equivalent of Gamespot or IGN and give them a full review of the game.

It's really a problem of checks and balances. Giving anyone in the government control over an organization like the ESRB effectively destroys the first amendment and gives the government control over what can and cannot be said. If that sounds appealing to them, they can go to China. But this kind of control of free speech has failed with TV, movies, music, and comic books. Someone has always thought that a form of entertainment will rot our kids' minds, and they have always been proven wrong.
I know who I'm not voting for in the Iowa Caucus in January.
@ Any politician blaming ESRB.

It's not their fault, thinking it is for one second is asinine, it's the parents, stores, and gifter's fault, think about it. You walk into a store, underage, buy cigarettes, it's not Marlboro's fault, right? It's the person who sold them to you. Same premise for games. Another thing, the parents should be watching what they are playing, they go to a friends house? Tell the parent you don't want your kid playing M rated games. It's THAT simple. Also, for the holidays, ask those who are giving gifts not to give over a certain rating, they should abide. Thank you.
Some speculate that the ESRB could be used to provide attention to increase sales of future games. Under this scenario, a game like Manhunt 2 would first be produced to ensure receipt of an AO rating and thereafter tweaked to get the reduced M rating. A more transparent process might protect the ESRB from being used in this manner.

Congratulations, you've noticed that a videogame rating system can be used for marketing purposes, just like the movie rating system currently does.

Now don't you have better things to do than grandstand over a non-issue?
I hope this simply motivates Americans to do one thing. Go out and vote.

Vote against facists like this who are going to take away your freedoms of choice whether you like it or not.

Register and vote!
@ Erik

Please don't.
What a disgusting endorsement of censorship. They seem to be saying no one in the public should have seen the AO version, ever. Those comments certainly strike me as being callous of tone, and paint an unremittingly bleak image of would-be President Hillary's agenda. Which really sucks in a politician, but sometimes I like my art that way.
The part about transparency in the ESRB is something that everyone could agree on would be nice. Arbitrariness and rating based on personal taste is something that should be left up to the the BBFC. Regulatory and rating agencies need clear rules governing how they do things.

That being said, the ESRB is a non-governmental rating agency and any further interference by US Senators would be troublesome. By the order of the signings at the bottom this appears unsurprisingly instigated by the Lieberman people, who have been fighting imagined demons since the era of fake outrage began.

And the Wiimote making gruesome murder and dismemberment more real? Are they trying to put out a press release talking about how wondrous IR controllers are at mimicking real life actions? Someone please get these US Senators a copy of Wii Sports and remind them that they just have to flick their wrist a little to hit the ball.
Despite it's obvious political agenda, this is actually a fairly well thought out letter. I dislike it's comparison to the BBFC, but it isn't the usual "Grr, I hate games" or "Who will think about the children" sort of response. Obviously, the ESRB can't make their process transparant without giving up details of the game that the publisher doesn't want out until release.

Of course, they again fail to realize that games are no longer a child-only medium. That they would try to prevent the release of a game for the chance a kid MIGHT get their hands on it is irritating, but we've4 already seen that no law preventing game sales is ever going to work, so I'm not worried.

Perhaps the ESRB does need a little tweaking. The fact that we can't buy AO games under our own reasoning is irritating beyond imagination.
Yeah so, here is my letter to Mrs. Clinton:


The letter in which Mrs. Clinton and three other individuals sent to the ESRB has me seriously reconsidering referring to myself as a Democrat.

First of all invoking the BBFC in response to a decision made by an American entity is absurd. The US stopped relying on the UK for such decisions some 231 years ago. And even so, why assume that the BBFC's decision is the correct one? At least the ESRB was willing to do their job and rate Manhunt 2. The BBFC on the other hand refused any sort of rating. This in my opinion is an insult to adult fans of interactive digital media. They are telling those tax-paying adults that they are not mature enough to handle such material. While at the same time the BBFC has rated movies which are equivalent to Manhunt 2, namely the Saw and Hostel line of movies. This unequal treatment on similar content between movies and interactive digital media is truly insulting.

Moving on in the letter we get to the part that mentions that the Nintendo Wii's control input permits CHILDREN to act out the torture scenes. Wrong. The only thing that permits children to do anything is their parents/guardians. You may not be aware, but all of the new systems come with parental controls so that even if somehow a child does get their hands on this game they will be unable to buy it.

I do hope that Mrs. Clinton is aware that the average video game player is over 18 years of age. To even mention children in the letter sent to the ESRB just further shows the discrimination against adult video game players. Why is Mrs. Clinton not putting such pressure on the MPAA? Can't children also watch the Saw and Hostel line of movies? The very same FTC article that Mrs. Clinton mentions that states that children are successful 42% of the time in buying a M rated video game also states that children are successful in buying an R rated movie 72% of the time! Now it seems to me that if Mrs. Clinton really cared about protecting the children from media they would start with the biggest problem first, which is apparently the MPAA.

I want someone to try and explain why the ESRB is in hot water without the MPAA being in similar or greater trouble. As far as I can tell is that Mrs. Clinton is biased in the matter that "of course no games should be M rated, because only children play games and aren't mature." While a movie with similar content is okay, as its generally accepted by society that some movies are for adults.

Finally as for the motion sensing of the Wii goes, I'm curious if Mrs. Clinton has actually played Manhunt 2 herself? Because if she did she would realize that the weak little flicks of the wrist needed to perform the necessary actions in the game can in no way represent the actual physicality needed to perform these actions in real life.


I hope to receive some sort of response to this that will prove that Mrs. Clinton isn't just furthering bigotry against adult video game players. Either that or I vote Libertarian in the next election.

Thank you.
Ugh.. And still the guns are freely available.. And no one seems to care..
"Unlike the British Board, the ESRB reduced the revised version’s rating to “Mature” (M) effectively opening the door to its widespread distribution and its licensing approval by game system manufacturers Sony and Nintendo. And, while significant progress has been made, the FTC reports that 42 percent of unaccompanied children 13 to 16 years of age can still successfully purchase M-rated games meaning that the practical difference between an AO and M rating affects more than simply 17-yearolds."

Um... wait, wait, wait, so basically what they're saying is that any game over "T" should not exist because children might play them.


............. Oh give me a break!
I could be setting myself up in a bad position here, but after reading that letter, I honestly don't think most of it is that unreasonable. Some of it's unrealistic. (For example, that part about the uncensored version being leaked to the public by internet. I can't imagine how any policy of the ESRB's could possibly affect that.)

That said, they're not making any threats, they're not being belligerant (ala Jack), they're just asking questions. Personally, I think the most likely outcome is that Pat Vance will answer them. I'm inclined to think she's shown considerable diplomatic skill, I see no reason this would be any different. Essentially, everyone calling for their heads on a platter, take a deep breath, and don't worry about it; They're not even mandating an investigation, they're just asking questions.

(Granted, some of those questions are just plain bad.)

1) OK - we get it, the english banned the game. They're not unreasonable people, but there's certainly no guarantee that everything they do is right.
2) (The Wii Controller) -slaps forehead with palm-
Look, someone needs to explain to these people that yes, the wiimote is motion sensing. Does that mean you're "teaching the behavioral sequence of killing"? Frankly, no, and I consider them somewhat misguided for asking. I've only ever seen the Wiimote in action once on Manhunt2. The section was supposed to simulate chopping, and the guy playing was doing it by rocking his hand back and forth at the wrist. Love to see anybody chop like that, I couldn't even chop a tomato like that. Frankly, it was closer to masturbation then chopping.
3) (The internet leak) Look, even if you think you can prevent internet leaks, never mind that they've been happening for as long as the internet's around and will likely continue to happen for as long as we have an internet; the fact remains that you couldn't possibly think that's the ESRB's fault for crying out loud. You want to blame anybody for that, blame Rockstar and Sony.
4) The notion that the ESRB could be used to generate press buzz about a game is a semi-legitimate one. I actually can't fault that.

In short 3/4's of it seems misguided, but it doesn't give me the residual anger that most of the uptight anti-gamers do. Don't stress about it folks, all they're doing is asking questions and that's something they have a right to do. Look at the bright side, I'd rather have them asking questions then taking old Jacko's approach and flinging subpeonas at anything he clearly doesn't approve of.
This letter was available on Senator Lieberman\'s web site 5 days ago. You\'re just now getting it?

This is very bad news for the ESRB. Wait until the Senators realize that the ESRB also participated in leaving in the adult material. Maybe Patty will be modeling dresses for Target in her next job.

GP: I believe we were the first game site to cover the story itself. I've been holding the letter for a couple of days as an extra item. The other 999 staffers here have the Thanksgiving holiday off...

 
"The notion that the ESRB could be used to generate press buzz about a game is a semi-legitimate one. I actually can’t fault that."

That argument is pure bullshit.

Why don't they rail against the movie ads stating "Two Thumbs Up: Ebert and Roeper" or "Hilariously wonderful - Some Other Reviewer".

What is it to ESRB what publishers do with their marketing? Shouldn't the "fine" senators write the game publishers instead?
And just what "adult material" was left in Manhunt 2 "Winston"?
I'm Canadian, and as liberal minded as they come. Almost Michael Moore level (course, he happens to very popular here). That said, I hope my friends to the south will NOT elect this close-minded harpy called Hillary as their next president. If someone can't grasp a simple issue as "M means not for under 17 year olds", what hope do we have that she can grasp the more complex issues a world leader has to contend with, such as war, taxes, terrorism, and good old fashion corruption? God Bless America? More like, God Help America!

For the record, I don't hold the same contempt for America that most non-Americans have. I'd like to think that the vast majority of you guys are above average intellect. The idiotic and ignorant may make up the minority in your country, they just happen to be the noisiest.

And on the subject of Manhunt 2, I own it on PSP (which is not modified, BTW, so it's the same as other versions content wise) and can vouch for the accuracy of the M rating. Believe me, I've seen worse content get less attention. As someone pointed out, The Godfather on Wii is actually more violent than Manhunt 2 and also has motion controls, but you didn't hear anyone raise a stink about that, did you?

As an aside, I happen to think Manhunt 2 is underrated as a game. It's not the best game ever made (not by a long shot) and probably doesn't deserve all the hype and attention it's been getting. That said, it is still a fun diversion that I think is at least worth checking out as a rental (provided you are age appropriate, of course! It is NOT for kids.) Just wanted to say that.

And I can't stress this enough. If you have an underage child with a Wii, PS3, XBox 360, or PSP, USE THE FREAKING PARENTAL CONTROLS!!! I understand parents can't monitor what the children are doing 24/7 and that some may indeed get their hands on a game they shouldn't be playing. That doesn't mean you are powerless. The parental controls are there for a reason.

One more thing. These politicians don't seem to realize that the ESRB ratings are NOT the law. They are suggestions made voluntarily to help parents. The ratings and content descriptors are clearly displayed (more clearly than the MPAAs ratings and descriptors I might add) and are there for you to make your best judgment. Government regulation does not take the place of parenting any day.

As for the consistency and accuracy of the ESRBs work, I can say from my own experience that I trust them 100%. And this includes the Hot Coffee fiasco, since you still couldn't access it without illegal modification. If the politicians want the ESRB to play games in their entirety before assigning a rating, I say make THEM (the politicians) do it themselves, and see how unreasonable it is to do so. The ESRB are doing the best job they can and are doing very well at it IMHO. Leave them alone and let them do their job!

Sorry for the length of this rant, but sometimes a guy needs to vent.
Dear Joseph I. Lieberman
United States Senator

Sam Brownback
United States Senator

Evan Bayh
United States Senator

Hillary Rodham Clinton
United States Senator



Games Rated M for Mature mean that they are not for children. To claim that the game "allows children to act out many graphic torture scenes" is akin to saying that the hostel movies should be banned because the scenes may be disturbing to children.

not all videogames are for children senators. The sooner you learn that, the better off you will be. The market for videogames is NOT children under 18. infact it is 18-34 year olds which provide the most sales for videogames.

You make the claim about how the unrated version hack is available online, but are you trying to say that because you can use an illegal methood to obtain the original version, that the legal version of the game should be banned? once again, that is akin to being able to download an unrated version of dvd that is not out yet and because of that banning said movie.

On the issue of the raters, I think you really have no leg to stand on there since one of your own onnce tried to make a bill that would force game reviewers to play games entirely (which is impossible for games that have infinite replayability and online games like World of Warcraft) not to mention that online games always have the potential of others online to use words that would normally give a game a M rating when the content is no less than T.

In sum, I would ask that you kindly stay quiet on the issue of videogames, though I doubt you will, and use intelligence when talking about videogames, a form of entertainment consumed mostly by adults. Otherwise you make yourselves look like fools.

Sincerely
DCOW
Benjamin McDowell
Dear Jaded Critic: Slap your forehead all you want. The fact is that involving one\'s body in rehearsing violent behaviors is known to more likely modify behavior. The Dept. of Defense has found just that, as have police departments. You got some proof disproving the scientific evidence?
@Pixelantes Anonymous

Whoh, dude, just because there's a certain degree of hypocrisy in what they do doesn't mean the question is invalid; You're not going to get a whole lot of argument from me that they apply a different standard to different forms of media. You're right though, applying the principle fairly would require massive change over multiple industries. Seeing as how that's not likely to happen though, I've just gotten used to the hypocrisy. Does not mean the question is invalid, no. Narrow-minded? Yes. Misguided? Yes, but not still not an unreasonable question to ask. It is a FACT, that Manhunt2's AO rating generated CONSIDERABLE BUZZ about it.

Personally, I'm not inclined to let it sit at that though. Play it forward, 3 steps ahead, and for the sake of argument, accept that Manhunt2's AO rating generated allot of buzz about it. Did that help it sell more copies at all? Is MH2 selling that well? Anybody know? I haven't seen any figures. Either way, nothing I've seen makes me want to buy it, so the real question becomes, if these senators are concerned that the industry is using the ESRB as a PR tool to boost sales. It's not working. Sales are likely not being boosted. Seems pretty likely that no one's bought the game who wasn't going to buy it anyway regardless of the AO. If that's indeed true, there's no problem here.
"Dear Jaded Critic: Slap your forehead all you want. The fact is that involving one\’s body in rehearsing violent behaviors is known to more likely modify behavior. The Dept. of Defense has found just that, as have police departments. You got some proof disproving the scientific evidence?"


The paltry wrist flicks needed to perform the actions in Manhunt 2 is hardly "rehearsing violent behaviors", Jack.
Hey, when I hit the on play button on my DVD player often one character kills another character, maybe that is rehearsing violent behaviors. And if you turn enough pages in Romeo and Juliet sure enough Mercutio will die! So English professors are training to kill as well.
"Another disturbing aspect of this saga is that the AO version ended up being leaked on the Internet thereby circumventing the rating restrictions. News reports state that the leak came from a Sony employee, who was reportedly fired, rather than the game manufacturer. Nevertheless, the possible use of the internet to circumvent the ESRB and permit broad access to kids is another concern."

i would love to know what they think the ESRB can do about this, i mean, come on
I desperately hope that Hitlery doesn't make it to office.

To all US Voters:

If Hitlery makes it as the Deme-Crap Candidate, you have a duty not to vote for either party.
@Winston Hall

Enjoy another ban Thompson. Did you forget Dennis can IP check you?
@Winston Hall

Sure. Light gun games. Those games involve the body, and have been around for years. I've been around them since I was a kid. Duck Hunt and Hogan's Alley at the time. Hasn't helped me be any less phobic about guns. Used to know a guy who thought it was amazing that I'd be such a terror at Unreal Tournament and treat his real-guns like live angry serpents. Before anyone assumes the worst, YES, I am well aware that I am not a statistical sample onto myself.

I remain skeptical however, and I'll boil it down to it's simplest, my argument is that simulation does not necessarily follow motion sensing. To mimic an experience is not an accurate representation of said experience. I'm decent at Guitar Hero, that doesn't mean I know a damn thing about the real mccoy. There's a WII swordfighting game or two out there, no one could possibly believe that completing that game trains you properly to handle a real kitana.

For the sake of argument, I will admit that motion-sensing does bring us one step closer to simulation, however, we're not they're yet. Proficiency at DDR does not necessarily mean you can dance.
@ Jaded Critic

There are flaws in your reasonings. We have disbuted this repeatedly and in various forms with JBT but you must not have been paying attention.

You state that involving one's body in rehearsing violent behaviors is known to more likely modify behavior.

Tell me: Have you ever sword/lightsaber fought with broom handles? Had hotwheels or other small cars as a small child and had them wreck and explode? Play Army/Cowboys and Indians? Played darts? (lethal weapon you know) Most child have. These btw are normal healthy children that go on to become normal healthy adults. They acted in ways "that involving one’s body in rehearsing violent behaviors" yet did not go on to become the mass murders you imply.

Yet the WII remote is much less invasive than those activities listed. Guess the difference lies in the person. Can they (can You) tell the difference between playing a game and doing a thing with harmful intent?
Ignorance in its purest form. 2 seconds of research would yield all the counter-evidence against these politicians' points.

1. M Rated games ARE NOT for children.
2. M Rated games ARE NOT being sold TO children.
3. The Wii and PS3 have parental controls.
4. The Wii and PS3 don't even allow the play of AO games, regardless of parental control settings.
If Winston Hall is Jack, which is quite likely from the content and tone of the posts, then it is amusing as hell. Jack will have become what he has always called many of us here, an anonymous coward.
Apoligies to JadedCritic. Misread the post. Should have been directed at Winston Hall
@Icehawk

"You state that involving one’s body in rehearsing violent behaviors is known to more likely modify behavior"

When did I ever say that? I thought I just wrote two posts revolving around the idea that simulation does not necessarily follow motion-sensing. Is it possible you've confused me with someone else?
Well, i missed THIS boat by a little bit. This should be good. Let's get some clarification. Survey says...!
@Icehawk

Cool - apology accepted. I'll admit you had me confused for a second though. Was wondering how I could've been that badly misinterpreted.
Was your post directed at Winston and my game-dead brain (been playing Mass Effect to much and still trying to work) crosswired it.

BTW John Bruce: If you are do read this I thought I would point out another basic truth for you to attempt to digest. We the brain dead, mass murdering, social outcasts will still apoligize when we are wrong. Sad that you seem to have failed in that basic social skill as well.
Even more distressing then video games is the fact that in 100% of cases, children under the age of 18 can purchase and read books that are clearly written for adults. I feel the senators should be promptly alerted to this menace, and take the next logical step. The reasoning they propose for limiting video games is even more of a threat with the written word.

Children can buy them without any restrictions. Some are clearly not appropriate for children. Many contain violent of sexual content. People can even photocopy a book and distribute it via illegal means. Jack Thompson can even make up research to show that repeated exposure to this type of violent imagery can turn everyone into serial killers.

Currently, there is not even a ratings board for literature. How would you feel if your 13 year old could buy A ClockWork Orange? This book has been severely criticized for violent content. If children can have access to these works, when it is clearly not age appropriate, there is only one action. Ban them. Better yet, burn them in large piles. Maybe we could have a dedicated group that goes around to confiscate and burn these dangers. We could call them Firemen.
@Icehawk

Truth be told if it had occurred to me that Winston might be jack I wouldn't have bothered replying to him - nothing I say will ever get through to him.
@ jadedcritic

Thought crossed my mind as well. Tis an odd name and one I have never seen here before AND preaching for things that JBT would have us believe. Suspicious at the very least.

You sir are correct in that trying to say things to him that he does not wish to hear has proven pointless. Honestly I should know better but find I cannot help myself at times. Those like JBT and even politicians as screwed up as they appear, must still have Some semblence of a human soul in there somewhere that can be reached and reasoned with. Right?

Then again I have been told I suffer with an incurable will-to-believe. Sigh
So much Bs to shift through in that letter so little time

"Dear Ms. Vance, We are writing to suggest that it may be desirable to revise or enhance the current ESRB rating system. We continue to believe that the ESRB takes seriously its responsibility with respect to the ratings and their enforcement. However, we believe that a number of issues have been raised regarding the release of Manhunt 2."

Translation: We're going to try to tell you how to do your job because we're upset about manhunt 2.


"In October 2007 the BBFC again refused to rate a revised Manhunt 2 stating that "[t]he impact of the revisions on the bleakness and callousness of tone, or the essential nature of the gameplay, is clearly insufficient. There has been a reduction in the visual detail in some of the 'execution kills', but in others they retain their original visceral and casually sadistic nature." Other countries agreed and have also banned the game."

Translation: Because we have an anti-game bias we agree with the BBFC decision more and are trying to get you to follow suit.

Honestly why should the BBFC's decision matter? They banned the game for its bleakness and callousness in tone. That's a horrbile reason to ban anything, does that mean they'll ban the Raven next.

"Unlike the British Board, the ESRB reduced the revised version's rating to "Mature" (M) effectively opening the door to its widespread distribution and its licensing approval by game system manufacturers Sony and Nintendo. And, while significant progress has been made, the FTC reports that 42 percent of unaccompanied children 13 to 16 years of age can still successfully purchase M-rated games meaning that the practical difference between an AO and M rating affects more than simply 17-year-olds."

By significant progress they mean the number is getting closer and closer to 0 every year.

"Manhunt 2 was sanctioned by Nintendo for its Wii system. That system permits children to act out each of the many graphic torture scenes and murders in Manhunt 2 rather than simply manipulating a game pad."

First off the game IS NOT MEANT FOR CHILDREN, there's a big old M on the game which means it's not suitable for children. If a child has gotten his hands on the game that is not the ESRB's or Rockstar's falt. If Hillary can't even get these basic facts straight even though they've been repeated numerous times I shudder to think what she'll be like as president.

"This led one clinical psychologist to state that the realistic motions used with the Wii mean that "you're basically teaching a child the behavioral sequencing of killing." While this was not cited as the reason for the BBFC decision, we do believe that the ESRB should take the Wii remote controller, and future advances in game controllers, which create more realistic gaming environments, into consideration."

Even though there have been tons of proffesionals saying that psychologist is wrong, and waving the wiimote around is about as realistic as waving a stick, and kids have been playing with fake swords for a very long time she's gonig to ignore all that jsut to complain and look good for the voters.

"Another disturbing aspect of this saga is that the AO version ended up being leaked on the Internet thereby circumventing the rating restrictions. News reports state that the leak came from a Sony employee, who was reportedly fired, rather than the game manufacturer."

NOT THE ESRB'S FAULT. . . AT ALL! Really it seems like she's just listing a bunch of vaguely related 'points' just to sound important and appeal to voters.

"Nevertheless, the possible use of the internet to circumvent the ESRB and permit broad access to kids is another concern."

Parents can also circumvent the ESRB but she doesn't complain about that. Also using the internet to cimcurmvent the ESRB has only happened a couple of times and thus it is a very very small problem (not to mention illegal to do in the first place). Also if a kid gets a game rated for a more mature audience that is entirely out of the ESRB's control.

" First, there appears to be a lack of information, to the public and developers, regarding why a particular rating is given or changed."

Actually they provide developers with all the information they need as to why a rating is changed, just not the public since they don't need to know.


"Why is information regarding rating changes or reasons for decisions unavailable, except for content descriptors, to the public?"

Because the Esrb isn't allowed to, it's part of the contract when they rate ANY game.

"We understand to some extent the concerns regarding the confidentiality of pre-released materials however that argument is no longer compelling after the product is released."

But the contract still stands.

"Some speculate that the ESRB could be used to provide attention to increase sales of future games. Under this scenario, a game like Manhunt 2 would first be produced to ensure receipt of an AO rating and thereafter tweaked to get the reduced M rating."

Oh not that old conspiracy theory again,


"A more transparent process might protect the ESRB from being used in this manner."

It really wouldn't

"Further, do the same reviewers view the original and the revised version of a game after an AO rating is received? How frequently do you use more than your minimum of three reviewers when evaluating a game? Are three reviewers adequate for the more violent games? How often do your reviewers disagree in their initial ratings and how frequently is the final rating a majority opinion rather than a consensus?"

I'd actually like to know the answers to these questions.
Probably already been said, but I love how they're using the leak of the AO version as ammo against it. Because children are smart enough to mod their systems or figure out a way to play a burned game off the internet...
Ironic how they criticize ESRB's minimal raters limit of a few people when a few people wrote this letter. Sure, There are reports of games labled M being sold to unaccompanied children. Isn't it the retailer's and parent's fault for not paying attention to their children. I don't care even if the parents may have busy job sceduels, it's their carrer choice and they shouldn't rely on the goverment to do their priority job for them.

And I find more flaws with the Movie rating system rather than the ESRB. Actualy, throughout my life I have never noticed an error in ESRB but plenty in the MPAA's ratings. Take Hostel for example, how is that any better than the origional Manhunt? At least in Manhunt the victims are murderers themselves, in hostel, the victims are completly innocent.

Why doesn't Hillary consider writing a letter of concern to the MPAA? Oh yeah, that's right... The MPAA is also a lobbyist group. And we all know Hillary's stance on Lobbyism versus other Democratic Presidential Canidates...

Well Patritia Vance, support Hillary for president and you should not face any problems from her anymore.
So, because the BBFC thinks Manhunt is bad, ESRB should too?

How about the fact that violence in entertainment in the UK has always been rated more harshly than violence in entertainment in the US? And that sexual content has been rated less harshly? Shall they go back and re-rate all entertainment material based on what the BBFC thinks? Because -that- would make sense, them being a separate organization based in an entirely different country and all.

That issue aside, I'm really getting tired of the perceived attitude that everyone who does not play video games seems to have: "it's a video game, it must be for children."

Seriously, is that mentality going to die sometime soon? =/ It would be nice if it did without having to wait for a generation of gamers to fill up the seats in the senate.
What is so goddamn hard for these people to understand that it's the stores who sell the games. There's a rating system already that works pretty damn well. M is for those OVER 17 YEARS OF AGE! The ESRB should just adopt the rating system that the MPAA use because obviously it is so fucking difficult to understand what exactly is in the game, especially when the game has it labeled right on the fucking back what is included in the game.
Ugh...

If it comes down to Hilary and any of the republican candidates, I won't even vote.

I see no point in choosing between a douchebag and a turd sandwich.
The motion sensing thing they try to make an issue really is darling though. I really don't think you would wield a sledgehammer with one hand with minor flicks of the wrist, while sitting on a couch while eating potato chips with your other hand(as I did while playing Manhunt 2) and expect to do any harm in the real world.
@Erik

Heh, exactly why I say the Wiimote can't exactly mimic a weapon.
Why don't the senators force the console makers to allow AO games on their systems thus making thos games rare and hard to find since 80+ % or retail wont sell it.

There children protected the day is won!
@DCOW - Excellent and well written letter, I sent mine too, let us know if you hear back...

Hillary has the most to lose because she's running for office and she doesn't think there are such a thing as "gamers who vote". Trust me, once her campaign hears from most of us, she'll have to reconsider her position. Right now, she thinks this is a low hanging fruit that she can use to get few women and some religious vote. What she doesn't understand is that the gaming community is in the millions and most of us are against censorship.
@ PaulT:

You're joking, right? Banning books? I mean, I could consider restricting books based on content, but there's no reason we all have to suffer from censorship.... oh wait, hahaha, now i get it, you made a joke about book-burning. That's kinda funny.

@ Jolly Buck Thatcher:

VOTE OR DIE!
I really hope Hillary doesn't get the Democratic nomination or we'll have at least four years of nanny-state type censorship under the guise of protecting the children from something they don't even need protection from in the first place.
The average normal child is not in anyway going to be negatively effected by playing GTA 4 or Assassin's Creed. The kids who might be influenced are the ones with shitty negligent parents who will just buy the games for their 8 year old regardless.
Anyways my point is it's the fault is the parents not the games/movies/music/books but politicians would never blame parents for their kids turning out to be a bunch of juvenile delinquents. They make up a huge voting block.
1. Thanks to Hilary will have another republican president mainly cause she makes Bush look sane...

2. How is stores not enforcing the M rating the ESRB's fault??? This game is not for kids and they have nothing to do with this argument unless the letter is to bestbuy or gamestop or whoever sells the games and its not so shut up...

3. How is a stolen version being leaked the ESRBs fault? If anything this is an argument against playing the games to rate them cause more chance for leaks that way...

4. The type of controller is a very poor argument since the motions are nothing like real life and the game content doesn't change, it would be like re-rating all the old movies because they are being converted to HD or bluray formats...its insane...

5. We are not Britain, if you wish to apply British laws then you are running for leader of the wrong country... You wanting to subvert our soveriegn rights to things like the constitution and mainly free speech isn't very democratic... Why don't you legislate guns instead of games, pretty sure those are a little more harmfull to children and hey, kids can get them too... why aren't you trying to ban guns, oh right games are a lot more dangerous...


That said the ESRB should make its ratings process more open and create an M-18 rating so that AO games could be sold in stores without having to be censored and stupid politicians doing worthless posturing on a non-issue like the ones that wrote this letter for example...

Also don't really have a big problem with guns just showing the hipocracy...
I wouldn't worry about Billary getting the nomination. Setting aside republican issues, which, let's not kid ourselves, the republicans might as well not run next year. ( -sarcasm- Thank you very much George Bush -/sarcasm-) The bottom line is the stuffy conservatives are still here, and most of them are old enough to remember and vaguely resent the Clinton years. As much as I do consider myself conservative, I do have a hard time understanding that, the clinton years were many things, but they weren't quite the slow economic asphyxiation that the Bush years turned out to be. ....I digress.

The bottom line is there are still people out there who are completely committed to the idea of -anybody but Hillary-. I can't blame them. Even if I had nothing against her, that healthcare plan she came up with a while back would have set me against her by itself.
@PaulT I agree with you completely...

I say we get a commity of common sence that decides for us which books,comics,movies and games are not suitable and get a secret police force to carry out the judgements. All things found to be improper for society should be banned and confiscated and burned...

This commity should also have its own flag, something to show that they represent lots of people, maybe the sign for many that a similar group used in the 40's...

Then we can start bannig certain types of people, the ones that don't fit the commities views of a proper person... then maybe we could invade poland or something...
*sigh* I hate politicians, not much else to say that hasn't already been said.
"That system permits children to act out each of the many graphic torture scenes and murders in Manhunt 2 rather than simply manipulating a game pad."

lol

might as well ban the sport of Baseball, too. Since swinging the bat could teach children to effectively use it as a weapon in a violent manner!
If Clinton's the democratic nominee and you can't stand her, just write-in for someone who could actually do a competent job of leadership. It's never worked before, but with the Internet's entrenched social networking capacities permitting coordination of that sort of thing, who knows?

@ Jonny

Paul's being sardonic.

Yet making a valid point, nevertheless. I read adult literature--ok, the Lord of the Rings was originally intended for children, but it's held up as adult today--well before second grade, which had the unfortunate effect of requiring me to ONLY read adult novels because children's books sucked in comparison. So I read just about every novel I could get my hands on, but didn't read overly explicit books or scenes merely as a matter of personal preference, and gained the habit of flipping through to check for "adult" porno/violence type stuff that would keep me from enjoying (parts of) a book on my own.

Do I think books need to be "rated"? No, but I also think that no media form should receive "ratings" per se, but rather include content descriptors (spoilered as necessary; nobody wants to get the plot twist from the blurbs) to warn parents of only specific content about which they may be reasonably concerned of getting into the hands of children of certain ages (or adults who don't want to see certain things can use to decide for or against picking it up). The argument currently separating books from other media, of course, is partly that all is left to the imagination and mostly that "adult" books require some skill level to read; but considering most "adult" games (and games in general) require skill to play, that's a worthless argument in this case.

If aything, games should be exempted from "age-appropriate ratings" due to the book-comparable level of ability it requires to access their content; but if we're going to complain about the potential for kids getting into "adult" games when the only problem is parents' idiocy, then by all means the exact same arguments should be used against books. In fact, with I believe the "Lemony Snickett" (spelling?) childrens' book series, the final book included content many parents considered inappropriate for their children, yet they weren't aware of it because they assumed the voice of the rest of the series would continue throughout that one and didn't check through it first.

The only reason the groundless and ignorant outcry for legislation against games in total, as a medium, continues while issues with books are blamed on individual authors or sellers and kept out of the legal field (against literature as a whole, anyway) is that people are complacent about books, uninformed about games, and too willing to jump on the latest soundbyte rather than get educated about or involved in their chidren's interests.
Want to encourage the development of fresh and creative games that encorporate adult themes? Want to liberate gaming from the tyranny of mindless for-profit sequels and the cult of "family friendly" gaming?

Here are the steps:

1. Wipe out the "AO" rating level and boost all current MA games to a strict 18+ age limit. Reformulate the ESRB rating system. Protect AO content by erasing the fictional, absurd, and counterintuitive barrier between AO and MA.

2. Lobby lawmakers to draft anti-copyright laws that effectively destroy console licensing agreements currently used to control, manipulate, and censor content.

3. Allow the free market to function freely at a retail level. Allow consumer demand to fuel the production of games marketed and sold for adult consumption.

4. Once the conditions listed above are met, encourage passing laws that strictly police the sale of adult games to minors. Shift the focus of this debate from "save the children" to "censor 'immoral' content." Defeating freedom hating facist pigs is far easier than defeating frenzies parents who have a valid point at times.

5. By law, government critics cannot actually censor the content of games. Censorship right now occurs at a micro, supply side, level. For critics who enjoy bitching, allow them to bitch and cry themselves into the corner. Their bullshit morality and superstition are applicable only to those gullible and/or deluded to believe such nonsense. Step four should kill most bitching of this type.

Optional Step 5: Continue illustrating the irrelevancy, contradictions, absurdity, and evil nature of contemporary moral norms derived from superstition. Replace superstitious value systems with value systems that respect personal and moral autonomy. Make it clear that fictional forms of entertainment, that cause no direct harm to anyone, function outside the realm of morality.
Also, please note that 90% of the critcism against gaming today does not emerge from the left, but represents a bi-product of a society still entrenched in bronze-age superstition. Hillary sees games as the easiest means to reach out to the bible thumping morons in this country.

The United States of Christian Fascism, as envisoned and promoted by the Republican party, presents a FAR greater threat to forms of entertainment. Remember, unlike the censorship rhetoric championed by Christian conservative critics, critics of the industry on the left usually keep to the topic of keeping adult games out of kids' hands.

The saddest thing in all this shit is the following statement: "“That system permits children to act out each of the many graphic torture scenes and murders in Manhunt 2 rather than simply manipulating a game pad.”

News Flash, Ignorant Shitty Parents: Games that contain murder and torture are not intended for children in the first place. The Wii is a machine devoid of a defining intrinsic character. Stop bringing up the image of the moral decay your snot and shit faced children might endure during your indirect assault on my personal freedom and moral autonomy, it is a fundamentally flawed and ridiculous principle.
@ Pendralisk
Would you please cease your senseless bashing of the Christian religion? I am one and I find your constant association of real Christians with mindless censors insulting.
Pandralisk, could you please for once stop with your religion bashing. It is really getting old. There is absolutely no need to call anyone "bible thumping morons". The topic at hand has nothing to do with Christians, so please stop it already.
Not this leaked version crap again. It's very expensive to play and requires a great deal of technical knowledge to implement! 99% of the people interested in it won't be able to use it if they get it!
"The topic at hand has nothing to do with Christians, so please stop it already."

Well, yes and no, while I would not care to go where Pandralisk went, he is right about one thing. Hillary is most likely trying to pander to the stuffy conservative, "moral values" coalition that supposedly elected Bush, and this is a good way to do it without losing stock in any real serious issue she cares about. While I have no demographic data to back up my conclusion with, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume the majority of what we shall call the stuffy-conservative, "moral values" coalition, is in fact (or at least claims to be christian)

Speaking from a not completely atheist, but largely so, point of view. It can be difficult to find genuine christians. So it's easy to get sucked up into the stereotype mindset. (shrug) I'm sure the same thing is true of us heathens.
@ the four stupid senators
"In October 2007 the BBFC again refused to rate a revised Manhunt 2... Other countries agreed and have also banned the game."

If other countries jumped off a bridge...
You know, if occurs to me that part of the problem is that teenagers are still considered children.

Sure when you say children, it brings up mental images of elementary schoolers, but technically it still applies to even older teenagers. Particularly more so as the age of the speaker increases. For example, I've heard an 80 year old call someone in their 30s "a good kid".

So they can be technically correct when they say "permits children to" while referring to 16 year olds, but it still evokes images of 6 year olds. Naturally they phrase it this way because "permits teenagers to" doesn't evoke nearly the same sense of urgency/horror. Especially as we are less than a century from a time where it was common for people to be getting married at 16 years old. When great-grandma got married before her 17th birthday, it kind of makes it harder to convince her, and grandma, and ma that people that age need to be protected.
"And, while significant progress has been made, the FTC reports that 42 percent of unaccompanied children 13 to 16 years of age can still successfully purchase M-rated games meaning that the practical difference between an AO and M rating affects more than simply 17-yearolds"

I don't see how this would be the ESRB. They habe made have made it abundently clear that this game isn't meant for anyone under the age of 17. What is left is for the parents to to step up and keep games like this out of their kids hands.
You would think that they would be happy that the game was edited down. But no they have a problem with a less violent version. Before they complain about video game violence they need to go talk to the people behind Hostel and Saw.

@Gray17
It all comes down to the ever growing generation gap. Plus the miss information being spread by the mass media.


...On a side note:I went out shopping to day and saw a man who was at least 40 showing idea to get an M-rated game.
@ Falcon4196

WHY IN THE HELL ARENT THEY BLAMING THE RETAILERS WHO ARE SELLING THE GAMES???

The ESRB only rates nothing more nothing less.
@Shaesyco

Yeah, the generation gap would be the biggest factor in a lot of the misconceptions that go around. Plus, while I haven't seen Hostel, I have seen Saw IV. While it was a decent movie, I have a hard time believing that the Manhunt series could possibly have a "bleakness and callousness of tone" worse than that of the Saw series judging just by that movie.
@ Gray17
What i want to know is why is it ok for movies to "gore it up" but if a video game does it it is like they shot JFK.
@Gray17 & Shaesyco/Ron Bison

"While it was a decent movie, I have a hard time believing that the Manhunt series could possibly have a “bleakness and callousness of tone” worse than that of the Saw series judging just by that movie. "

The standard argument is that it's an apples to oranges comparison because movies require no interactivity. You don't initiate and or participate in said violence. Frankly, I don't put allot of stock in it, but I'm willing to throw it out there for devil's advocate. All should feel free to shred the argument for being the thinly veiled excuse for hypocrisy that it is.
@ jadedcritic

That is true but why is it ok the put out unrated dvds but not games?
"The standard argument is that it’s an apples to oranges comparison because movies require no interactivity. "

Well thats not entirely true. There is acting out of the violence... by the actors. By that line of thought I think Governor Schwarzenegger should be more concerned about flipping out and killing people by his own hands rather than video game violence.
"Thanks to Hilary will have another republican president mainly cause she makes Bush look sane…"

The biggest reason people like Hillary is because of her Centrist views. If she ever becomes prez I doubt video games would be one of the most important topics of her career.
@ Pandralisk

opinions aren't fact Pandralisk, you have no proof to back up your claim and are basing them off of pure speculation and wild hatred for christians for whatever twisted reason.
I loved it when people told me how to do my job when in fact they have no clue on how to do it... >.> But hey its a good try for PR eh?
@haters

So many of you politely request that I stop my attack on hateful Christian norms, spread through the use massive lies and selective indoctrination, that are used to justify the attack on the moral autonomy and free consumption of adult products by adults. I will not do such a thing; as it lies directly at the heart of this problem.

I encourage you to wake up and smell the air. Embrace the sick reality before you: a perverted and inconsistent religion and many of its deluded followers are defining, limiting, and contextualizing just about every video game that slips through your fingers. Will you please stop ignoring this painfully obvious fact and neglecting your obligation to defend the personal freedom of adult consumers?

Myself and countless other gamers want to have access to games intended for adults. We want these games to encorporate adult themes applicable to the setting and context of the game: our demand is clear. We want things like anatomically correct violence and sexuality, strong cussing in some settings, and explicit adult themes in games that contextualize such content. Yet we have not, and will not likly anytime soon, have access to these games. There is a vast untapped market that is being suppressed because this market violates moral norms derived from Christian hate.

We are sick of Bible thumpers hiding under the welfare of their children and behind hateful bronze-age superstition in their attack to rape us of our moral automony.

Wake up and see the industry for what it is; a manipulated shadow of a shallow, family friendly, pile of franchised sequels devoid of virtually all value.
I could've sworn Jack used the Winston Hall name last time he was banned. Try something more original next time, Jack.

On the otherhand, don't try a next time, because I'm pretty sure every time you do post here now, you're breaking at least one law. Quite possibly more than one. I can't wait to see the fallout of that.
@jadedcritic

The standard argument is that it’s an apples to oranges comparison because movies require no interactivity. You don’t initiate and or participate in said violence. Frankly, I don’t put allot of stock in it, but I’m willing to throw it out there for devil’s advocate. All should feel free to shred the argument for being the thinly veiled excuse for hypocrisy that it is.

The thing is, the "but they're interactive!" argument is normally raised in regards to why games can teach people to be killers, but movies can't. The tone of a series is more or less separate from it's interactivity. Thus we should be able to compare it to movies. At the very least the question should be raised until some of these people are forced to explain why the tone of one is worse than the tone of another.
@ Pandralisk

Speaking as one of the, to use your words now, "Bible thumping, facist pigs" I can only say that you are seriously, and quite frankly, wrong. I, and many others, have tried to explain on numerous occasions that Christianity is NOT, let me repeat that, NOT about forcing people to believe as we do. Do we WANT people to do so? Yes. However it is understood, by us at any rate, that the entire point of Christianity, aside from Christ's crucifixion and resurection, is to choose. If you don't freely choose to repent and come to Christ then it's not real in any sense of the word.

Let me be clear on this. Christians do NOT (there's that word again) want to censor things. We do want to have an affect on society so we move away from certain behaviours; but that's another matter entirely. We know that if we endorse the government censoring one thing then we could very well be next. You're case just doesn't hold water. All you do is spew hatred and vitriol, not unlike a certain attorney we all know and love.

Kindly stop your relentless and pointless attacks against us. All it does is show you for the bigot you are.
As far as the whole Christianity thing, all I can say is that there are Christians who just want to believe what they want to and don't wish to force their beliefs upon others and aren't all self-righteous and bigoted. The problem is that, like all religions, there are Christian fanatics (Jack Chick comes to mind) that are absolutely convinced that every word of the Bible as they interpret it is the absolute truth, and that any attempt to logically explain why that just doesn't make sense becomes "The work of satan!!!1!11shift1!" and those same people can be quite self-righteous and wish to impose their beliefs on everybody else.
The thing is, though, that all religions have those kinds of maniacs, and also those kinds of rational people, and it really is a universal thing.
In short, you can't generalize all people of a religion because of a few maniacs. On the flipside, that fact that you yourself are a rational person and of a particular religion does not mean that all people of the same religion are the same (I don't think I've seen anyone make that argument, but in the interests of fairness I feel compelled to make the point).
@ Pandralisk
You have a lot of ignorance in your words. Unfortunately you are unwilling to listen to what is being said. You should put your energy better use. You are just waisting your energy, and ours, by coming here.
@Pandralisk

Dragging religion into where it isn't warranted neuters your arguments severely. Don't base an entire religion off a few nuts who went bad.
Zeig Heil Furher Pandralisk.

So what color is the sky in your twisted, evil, bigoted world? You are just rather lucky that Dennis does not seem to enforce the rule on harassment and racism. Yes you are not being "racist" but the difference between racism and bigotry is essentially moot. You are saying nothing new that has not oozed from the cranial shit hole called a mouth from any racist fucks before you. Trying to stamp a pseudo intellectual cover on it is the same thing.


And much like the other Jack you believe in some grand conspiracy with the evil Christians, who you believe to be all nongamers, against all gamers, who you believe are all atheist. I find it amusing that you try to place yourself in a position of moral superiority above the Christians here, but fall very short with your hatred, inane, bigoted rantings.


I as well you to smell the air, but that of the real world and not the nitrous oxide that seems to permeate your reality. But let me state something to you bluntly enough that it might even pierce your blunted skull. THERE ARE CHRISTIANS WHO ARE FIGHTING FOR AGAINST CENSORSHIP AND THEREFORE FOR YOUR RIGHTS YOU UNGRATEFUL JACK(thompson)ASS.

People, Christians and the world at large is much more complex than your fucking dumb ass twisted view of it. Even in the past few days where there are articles about Conservatives fighting for the rights of media, and Liberals against it, still STILL you cling to your delerium.


Many of the countless other gamers, ARE FUCKING CHRISTIANS ASSNUGGET.
The more I read Pandralisks posts, the more I realize that he has no idea what he's talking about. True, Christianity has it's share of nuts, but to blame most (if not all) of the current problems of this country on that one religion are not only misguided, but utterly arrogant and hateful.

To accuse one religion for these problems is selfish. What about good old fashioned narrow-mindedness? Or incompetence? Ignorance of the Facts of the matter? Perhaps our good man pandralisk should actually read up on the religion he's bashing, and realize that NONE of the things he bitches about are part of the actual religion. They're the distortions of the people who read them.

This is NOT a shining reccomendation to join a church. My screen name reads AgnostoTheo for a reason. However, actually having studied this topic, I find the sort of hate-filled bile that's coming from this mans mouth (who probobly isn't much older than 17, by my guess.) is on par with not only Jack Thompson, but the KKK and neo-nazi's as well (*ducks under the Godwin Hammer*).

That said, I have this to say on behalf of the sane readers of this website:
Pandralisk, go spew your venom elsewhere. We're not interested.
@ Pandralisk

Yeah, I've heard your crap a thousand times now, that's not what I was talking about though. I was talking about this.

"The United States of Christian Fascism, as envisoned and promoted by the Republican party, presents a FAR greater threat to forms of entertainment. Remember, unlike the censorship rhetoric championed by Christian conservative critics, critics of the industry on the left usually keep to the topic of keeping adult games out of kids’ hands."

So aparently, christians and republicans are evil and working secretly to take over America. Care to back that up with some proof?
Who is this "We" anyway? As long as I've been here, I've only seen at most two supporters. Both of which, I might add, were more mature than you.
well im voting for obama. he hasnt made any bad moves against vid games.
@pendralisk

"Also, please note that 90% of the critcism against gaming today does not emerge from the left, but represents a bi-product of a society still entrenched in bronze-age superstition. Hillary sees games as the easiest means to reach out to the bible thumping morons in this country."

this isn't true, and the senseless bashing of the Christian religion does not help you get your point across, and in fact hinders your message

the fact of the matter is that, a majority of the laws being implemented against the game industry comes from the left side of the political spectrum, the ones on the left off the top of my head would be Hilary, Leeland Yee of California, Burrel of Louisiana, Evan Bayh and of course Lieberman, although to be fair Lieberman isn't technically a Dem as he won his last election running as an independent

honestly aside from Brownback, and Blogojovich (sp?) i can't recall any of the laws coming from Republicans
@ VenomandCarnage

I think it's safe to say ALL politicians are "evil and are working secretly [and otherwise] to take over America", so technically....

;-)

...But on a serious note, there's no point in asking. P's not seeking a discussion, just being as delightful as ever in accusing the Other of being hateful and blind while ignoring the irony of such bilious claims...I know I've read something about that somewhere.

Maybe it's meant as a kindness to provide us with a renewed source of [place subject here]-bashing while JT's banned.
@ VenomandCarnage

I think it's safe to say ALL politicians are "evil and are working secretly [and otherwise] to take over America", so technically....

;-)

...But on a serious note, there's no point in asking. P's not seeking a discussion, just being as delightful as ever in accusing the Other of being hateful and blind while ignoring the irony of such bilious claims...I know I've read something about that somewhere.

Maybe it's meant as a kindness to provide us with a renewed source of [place subject here]-bashing while JT's banned.
...sorry, that was obviously not intentional...well, maybe not OBVIOUSLY. [Usual editing-button-lack vitriol followed by admission that such errors are better than requiring sign-in]
@Pandralisk

Christianity is not the heart of the problem. If there was no Christianity, you'd be bashing something else.

You don't know if Clinton and the like are Christians and I don't know either. They could be only saying this to satisfy Christians who complains (not the kind of Christian I like).

And, trying to spew an "Anti-Christian propaganda" (not what I had in mind, but can't find a better word) is just as bad as "Christian propaganda". It's the same thing: forcing ideas on others without much arguments.

Sorry to tell you, but you're no different from Thompson except that you're a "Christian-likeness chaser".
“ultraviolent”
Never, Never, Never, Never, NEVER use this term, pols, unless you've seen A Clockwork Orange.
EVER.
@Pandralisk

Not counting the religious attacks, most of your comments are actually quite intelligent.

Now that I've got that out of the way, I must tell you that the "bible-thumping" section of Christianity does NOT practice true Christian values. In fact, they could be described as being what Islamic Extremists are to the Muslim community; taking the religious text and severely contorting it to serve their own personal agendas.

While the bible-thumping "Christians" are by far the most outspoken, their views do not, by any stretch of the imagination, represent those of the Christian community as a whole. The said bible-thumpers' entire agendas rely on the ignorant individuals who only want quick-fixes to issues and cannot be bothered to educate themselves on those same issues.

I myself am a Christian, and I can tell you myself that the bible-thumpers take the tip of the iceburg that is Christianity and falsely present it as the whole.
@Jkd

Your central Holy Text, hundreds of years of church history, monopolization of contemporary norms, and the stances of most contemporary church figures argue otherwise. Most Christians, especially the faithful, seek to enforce subtle moral norms derived from superstition. Please wake up and realize the absurdity of Christian metaphysical beliefs, immorality of Christian moral beliefs, and Christianity's sick and perverse consequences on the rights of consumers in this country.

Do not mock Christians who believe the Bible literally. They are the only group that possesses even a fraction epistomolgical truth. Others cling to superstition -- and its hateful value system -- simply because they are too scared to denounce a faith that they know is antiquated, absurd, and ridiculous. They disregard the Bible, except to assault objects they dislike, and construct their own psuedo-Christian religion; such people mold and sculpt "God" around whatever they wish God to be.


Their "cherry picked" interpretive style selectively picks values from the Bible that fall in line with contemporary norms (which are radical Christian norms at the moment). Most of you argue foolishly. You commit a logical fallacious line of reasoning that does not see the distinction I make. The Bible, not Christians, and its hateful web of superstitious lies set in glorification of a fictional genocidal child killer is the true culprit here. Try reading the book. Must I summarize the horrible aspect of its content once more? It is at the heart of the censorship problem.

Do not accuse me of not knowing Christianity. I have read the Bible. No other work of fiction glorifies anti-freedom, murder, death, torture, hate, homophobia, logical contradictions, moral contradictions, superstition, intolerance, slavery, and racism like the Bible does. Why don't you try reading the book in a fair and objective manner? Perhaps if you seperate yourself from the web of "Bible for Kids" lies that were spewed from an insidious member of the clergy -- whose economic well-being depends on the survival of superstition -- you might see the book for the insane pile of garbage it is.

Why, when a proven market exists, do we not have widespread access to AO games? Why do more games not include incredibly sexually explicit and violent content? Why are game developers coerced into toning down logical increments of violence and sex in games? Why does the media still wed the concept of games as an exlusive form of entertainment for children? Where does the overwhelming majority of critcism against gaming come from? Why does it come? How is gaming similar to other forms of media and the criticsm that they recieved?

I'll leave you to ponder over these questions. Dig as deep as you can.

The web of Christian hate is painfully obvious. Don't tell me it doesn't exist. Do not tell me it is at the heart of this argue.

Christian hate represents both the standard bearer and vanguard in the assault against our rights as gamers.
two words. Laissez faire.
They probably have seen A Clockwork Orange. The "ultraviolent" moniker is kind of appropriate for games like Manhunt as it represents extreme violence purely for the sake of it, being violent for kicks or to pass the time. Manhunt, Soldier of Fortune, etc. are marketed as games where violence has been boosted to give it an edge.

Manhunt wouldn't have much of a point if it didn't have execution scenes, so it could be considered ultraviolent. By contrast, Counter-Strike could remove all trace of blood without affecting the game's dynamic.
pandralisk:"Do not mock Christians who believe the Bible literally. They are the only group that possesses even a fraction epistomolgical truth."

Umm.... wow.
You do realize that the Jack Chicks of the world who interpret the bible literally, in my experience, tend to believe that evolution is a trick by Satan to make us all turn against God and that rock music is Satan's way to turn us all to his evil Satanism (a religion, by the way, that has nothing to do with Satan).

On a side note, I'm beginning to suspect that this whole thing is subtle satire.
"(a religion, by the way, that has nothing to do with Satan)."


Thats not entirely true. There are two distinct groups which have to do with Satan. One is more of a philosophy of selfishness, and the other being a religion of worship of dark beings.
@ Erik:
"Satanism" is commonly used to mean "Worship of Satan." That's not really true, though. I suggest you look it up on Wikipedia or somesuch.
@ pandrilisk
Again waisting energy of others with your EXACT same rants. just like John Bruce.
You may have read the bible, but you obviously do not understand the history, theology, and compassion that is being said. Please send your energy's to something more productive. because you lost your ability to argue here a long time ago
“Satanism” is commonly used to mean “Worship of Satan.” That’s not really true, though. I suggest you look it up on Wikipedia or somesuch."


Why bother? I've watched a documentary on the matter.
@Pandralisk

Wow. If you thought that little rant of yours would have even the slightest of chances of affecting my faith then you don't know me very well. Ask some of the people here if you want. When I set my stance on something I do not move, kinda like a mountain that way.

I'll say it again. You are wrong. There's simplly no other way to put it, and quite frankly I don't feel it necessary to pick apart anything you said because you'd just ignore it anyway. You're spoiling for a fight on this one and I won't give it to you. I'll just say that you're wrong and leave it at that.
@pandralisk again

1. chrsitianity is exactly the opposite of what you claim. The simple truth is that the bible says to spread peace, and accepting and understanding, things which you obviously have none of. maybe if the bible was strictly the old testament in the KJV, you MIGHT be correct, but the bible has multiple translations, and the bible has another section called "the new testament". Take a look at Jesus. Are you going to tell me that jesus was a hateful, bigoted racism genocidist? I think not.

2. the AO rating is NEVER going to be taken out. NEVER, stop preaching the "we need to get rid of the AO. Same goes for anyone else that keeps saying that. If you want to start from square one, your going to have to start by taking ALL videogames out of the stores first and render the previous ESRB ratings obsolete. Then your going to have to create an ENTIRE new system and make sure that ALL games have said markers on them to identify which games have what.

the process is far bigger than "take away the AO rating" so unless you have another rating system already thought up, developed, reviewed, and ready to be used, be quiet.


3. Hilary is not attacking games to reach out to the "bible thumpers" as you put it. She's attacking games to reach out to the soccer moms that don't know better. Get your facts straight

4. the only way to change the entire system, is to descend into anarchy first, and until ALL current systems are destroyed, not one will change.
"Why bother? I've watched a documentary on the matter."

Um... wow. That is just so incredibly closed-minded, I have no response.
I'll save you the trouble. From Wikipedia:

"Generally, the word "Satanism" is often used as a general name for several distinct spiritual practices and beliefs: the two most significant seem to be LaVeyan Satanism, and Theistic Satanism. Ideas about Satanism range from essentially these two sources.

LaVeyan Satanism, wherein the Satanist plays the role of the adversary to spiritual creeds, espousing vehement social Darwinism, hedonism, objectivism, and atheism. Among LaVeyan Satanists (called so by non-adherents to clarify that they support the ideologies in the writings of Church of Satan founder Anton Szandor LaVey), for them the term Satanism indicates "the first carnal religion in human history."[2] Careful use of the word, according to one website, refers to a "small religious group that is unrelated to any other faith, and whose members feel free to satisfy their urges responsibly, exhibit kindness to their friends, and attack their enemies."[3] Secondly, the worship of an actual spiritual being or other use for the mythology of Satan(Theistic Satanism), which is often actually the practice of freedom but is confused a lot with the Christian devil for its rebellion was the first historical allegory of refuting the status quo, (some sects do worship the Biblical Satan, and may therefore be considered unusual variants of Christianity); as well as the practice of an allegedly ancient but misunderstood religion (e.g. Setianism associated with the Egyptian god Set who is conflated by some with the Biblical Satan), although the Temple of Set refutes any notion that they are Satanists."

The point is that, in some cases, Satanism is devil worship, but in others it really isn't and that's a common misconception.
I'm gonna duck out of this now, before it gets out of hand.
There are a few legit points here, but overall not so much. As many have said, why should we care what the BBFC does? They rate most movies and games lower than the US. As to enforcement and leaks, I'm not sure what the ESRB is supposed to do about that. They are merely an advisory board. They can issue advisories, but they don't have any power to make people follow them, nor do I see how they could.

My understanding is the ESRB does tell developers why they got a rating. They just don't and can't tell the public because that's would involve giving out proprietary information about the game and development process. The ESRB has, to some degree, given out information post-release, though. They were very open about reasons for the Oblivion re-rate, for instance. The development process still needs to be guarded and I'm sure most developers don't want the ESRB tellign everyone how the sold out to get a lower rating. The developers are given this information and can share it if they so desire. The ESRB could stand to give out more general info, though.
"The point is that, in some cases, Satanism is devil worship, but in others it really isn’t and that’s a common misconception."


Yeah, that is exactly what I said.
Also what the documentary I watched said. So before going around and labeling people close minded you might want to first make sure they don't agree with you. Because if they agree with you and you call them close minded, what does that make you?
PS: Picture=HILARY ANGRY, HILARY SMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASH!!!
"I was referring to the statement “I saw a documentary about it, so why should I bother?” Saying that, to me, is just the same as saying “I don’t need to learn anything about that, I already know everything I need to” which is an incredibly closed-minded thing to say in my opinion."

Actually it was, "I have learned about that, so looking it up on wikipedia would be redundant." Or rather, "I already know about it and beat you to the punch." Seriously, a close minded person wouldn't bother to have learned anything at all.
@pandralisk again

you obviously have NOT read the ENTIRE bible, or else you would know different, and beter.
As a Satanist i can tell you that Satanism does not worship the biblical version of Satan. We see him more as a source of strength. We do not believe he is real either.
“Another disturbing aspect of this saga is that the AO version ended up being leaked on the Internet thereby circumventing the rating restrictions. News reports state that the leak came from a Sony employee, who was reportedly fired, rather than the game manufacturer. Nevertheless, the possible use of the internet to circumvent the ESRB and permit broad access to kids is another concern.”

I thought it was odd that they address this moot issue. The AO version requires that the person who wants to play it hack their psp, modify the file, and that only take out some of the effects that cover up the gruesome scenes. So it doesn't really undermine the ESRB's rating. If the children really knew how to hack these games with ease, then we'd have a problem.

Also
ACk! accidentally hit submit.

Anyways, the ESRB can not control how other people hack the game and distribute it on the internet. This same problem exists for movies and other adult rated media. Children can download bootleg or actual versions of ultra violent movies. If this problem is going to be addressed, they should go all out for the children.

In a way, they are undermining their own arguments. The game is meant for mature audiences. The senator goes on to say that children have access to these games, and therefore, the rating doesn't work. Therefore, parent's cannot be educated on the rating system because it is flawed. If the games says M for mature, then the parents should know this, and that it means that the game is in no way meant for children. Retailers need to enforce strict rules concerning how their employees should only sell M rated to people 17 and up.

The senators are not going to solve the problem by investigating the ESRB. They is relying on the issues presented by the media and the press. I don't know if I should fault them or not. While I'm sure they have a lot of material that they need to study and be versed on, I am unsure if I want a leader who only addresses the issues presented in the papers. They should do their own investigation and look more deeply at the issue.

Even on this forum, gamers have said so many times that the senators need to talk to the retailers selling the games so that children do not get their hands on this game. They need to educate the parents on how they can control how their kids play games and show them how to use the parental control features. I wish they would show more common sense.

While I do acknowledge that they do not write with any sort of hostile tone, but with one of concern and worry, even we can see more clearly how we can better fix this problem than they.
"Some speculate that the ESRB could be used to provide attention to increase sales of future games. Under this scenario, a game like Manhunt 2 would first be produced to ensure receipt of an AO rating and thereafter tweaked to get the reduced M rating. A more transparent process might protect the ESRB from being used in this manner." They are awre that THEY ARE USED TO PROVIDE ATTENTION TO INCREASE SALES OF FUTURE GAMES, RIGHT?

Also, Hollywood movie studios often make movies as whatever as they can and then cut them down to what they want to aim for, the bare minimum. Like various PG-13 comedies have almost enough swearing, sex, violence, raunchiness, whatever, to be an R, but it's just almost. They're basically PG-16 movies, not PG-13 movies, but they don't qualify for R, soooo...

What I'm saying is, when you don't apply such high ethical standards to Hollywood why should it be applied to video games?
I've read the entire text and critically thought through most of it. Again, it is the most morally disgusting work of historical fiction that I know. No other book glorifies murder, torture, hate, racism, slavery, coercion, and death like the Bible does.

Christians have quite the habit of ignoring the insane, immoral, and disgusting aspects of their antiquated religion. Again, most Christians simply pick through the text -- while acknowleding that the text itself instills their religion with truth -- and digest what they like. This does not work. You cannot claim an object fallible when the object itself is the only thing that grants metaphysically absurd beliefs possibility in the first place. Again, you're simply constructing the idea of God around whatever seems pleseant at the time.

Let us review the central theme of the New Testament:

Acknowledge a cosmic Jewish space zombie as your eternal master and enter in a contract of spiritual slavery with him, OR your soul will either be destroyed or tortured for all eternity. Cower before the ancient God of Israel or be eternally damned on the day of judgment. "Ignorant" people of the world will die When the riders come, the beast rapes the bodies of children and women, while a supposedly omnipotent God looks in perverse enjoyment.

Sounds very similar to the sanction of murder and hate that litters the old testament.

And remember, children, most sects of Christianity through the doctrine of the trinity do not distinguish major differences between the genocidal child killer in the OT and Jesus.

Why do I mention all of this? Not because I hate Christianity. Please feel free to worship a genocidal child killer if you wish. I bring up this because it is the chief motivating factor on the assault of adult moral autonomy [in video games in this context] in this country. Want to fix gaming?

Want to encourage the development of fresh and creative games that encorporate adult themes? Want to liberate gaming from the tyranny of mindless for-profit sequels and the cult of “family friendly” gaming?

Here are the steps:

1. Wipe out the “AO” rating level and boost all current MA games to a strict 18+ age limit. Reformulate the ESRB rating system. Protect AO content by erasing the fictional, absurd, and counterintuitive barrier between AO and MA.

2. Lobby lawmakers to draft anti-copyright laws that effectively destroy console licensing agreements currently used to control, manipulate, and censor content.

3. Allow the free market to function freely at a retail level. Allow consumer demand to fuel the production of games marketed and sold for adult consumption.

4. Once the conditions listed above are met, encourage passing laws that strictly police the sale of adult games to minors. Shift the focus of this debate from “save the children” to “censor ‘immoral’ content.” Defeating freedom hating facist pigs is far easier than defeating frenzies parents who have a valid point at times.

5. By law, government critics cannot actually censor the content of games. Censorship right now occurs at a micro, supply side, level. For critics who enjoy bitching, allow them to bitch and cry themselves into the corner. Their bullshit morality and superstition are applicable only to those gullible and/or deluded to believe such nonsense. Step four should kill most bitching of this type.

Optional Step 5: Continue illustrating the irrelevancy, contradictions, absurdity, and evil nature of contemporary moral norms derived from superstition. Replace superstitious value systems with value systems that respect personal and moral autonomy. Make it clear that fictional forms of entertainment, that cause no direct harm to anyone, function outside the realm of morality.

GP: Pandralisk - I need you to stop dragging an off-topic religion bash into comments.

Consider this your warning.
"I’ve read the entire text and critically thought through most of it. Again"


And walked away with a different interpretation than nine tenths of the people who have read it. Then claimed that your interpretation is gospel. Don't assume that your interpretation is the only one.
Wow, for someone who doesn't hate christianity, you sure spew enough bullcrap and venom towards it.
Pandralisk, you are lucky that GP allows you to post, I certainly wouldn't if I were him. It is getting beyond ridiculous how you keep on bashing my faith and that of others. I really don't believe it one bit that you don't hate Christianity, all of your posts point out that you clearly do.

We have asked you before to quit bashing us Christians, but you clearly have no intend to do so. Couldn't you perhaps decide to post on a different type of forum? This isn't the"let's bash all Christians" forum.

To add to another person saying that Christianity does play a role in this conversation, it really doesn't. This topic is supposed to be about four senators writing a letter to the ESRB. The E in ESRB doesn't stand for Evangelical, but for Entertainment. Also, this site isn't called GameReligions either.
@pandralisk,
Yeah comments like "cosmic Jewish space zombie" mean i can really listen to anything you have to say and not laugh. If you were really serious about what you have to say, you would actually make good arguments, and not just spew your bile everywhere. We understand you truly hate christianity. You have a belief and aren't backing down, good for you. Well no one here wants to here it. No one here really cares about what you have to say when you start bashing religions. And the biggest flaw to your whole drama fest, is the christians here who are actively against censorship and forced compliance with christian morality. You just can't understand that someone can be for free will, and still be a christian. That just goes to show how small minded you are. You've put everyone and the world in a little box so you can make sense of it all, but forgot to account that the world is much bigger than your box and so you left out anything that doesn't fit your opinion. Then you wonder why no one cares what you say and think you are a waste of time.
To this Troll I lol, (ooh i just made a rhyme)
@ Pandralisk

We get it - you hate religion. That's cool, that's your right - but THIS IS NOT THE FORUM FOR THAT DISCUSSION

Seriously, if you wanna bash on religion, do it somewhere else. It's always off topic here - GAME. POLITICS.

Say it with me now.

GAME.


POLITICS.


Religion doesn't enter the equation most of the time... you drag it in, but you rant and rave and bitch and moan and complain, and generally make all atheists look like assholes. Here's another atheist asking you to STOP. You draw huge lines between religion and your own personal crusade against it, and bring the games in on the side. Discuss the games, discuss the direct politics about the games, and leave off on the rest - it's off topic, and we've all read it before.
@Pandralisk

You didn't understood the bible as a whole. All you understood (like JT) is your own interpretation of the Bible.

Next time you try to read it objectively, try reading it like any novel and you'll probably interpret it another way.

Most sentences could be translated and interpreted in different way. One example: the sentence: "Womans, be submitted to your husbands" (Not sure about the direct quote, I don't have an english bible. This is how it was written in French). One can read "Womans, be slaves to your husbands" while another can read "Womans, be faithful to your husbands". It's all a matter of interpretation.

And I was taught by no christian sect. I was taught by my family (even though we're more Roman Catholic).
@Pandralisk

Want to encourage the development of fresh and creative games that encorporate adult themes? Want to liberate gaming from the tyranny of mindless for-profit sequels and the cult of “family friendly” gaming?

Here are the steps:

1. Wipe out the “AO” rating level and boost all current MA games to a strict 18+ age limit. Reformulate the ESRB rating system. Protect AO content by erasing the fictional, absurd, and counterintuitive barrier between AO and MA.


That just turns the M rating into the new AO rating. Furthermore it increases the gap between the T and M ratings, which will only increase the problem we have now of some games that should be rated T, but are rated M for one or two minor scenes (those giving a false impression of what M rated games encompass). Furthermore it'll contribute to more self censorship as developers water down their content to be rated T rather than "the new AO".

2. Lobby lawmakers to draft anti-copyright laws that effectively destroy console licensing agreements currently used to control, manipulate, and censor content.

The problem is licensing agreements are how console makers, you know, make money on their consoles. Gut them into uselessness, and in short order it won't be profitable to make the next generation of consoles.

3. Allow the free market to function freely at a retail level. Allow consumer demand to fuel the production of games marketed and sold for adult consumption.

Umm, that's kinda already how it works, aside from the whole problem with the AO rating being refused by console makers and retailers. Having a step about fixing the AO problem makes this point utterly redundant.

4. Once the conditions listed above are met, encourage passing laws that strictly police the sale of adult games to minors. Shift the focus of this debate from “save the children” to “censor ‘immoral’ content.” Defeating freedom hating facist pigs is far easier than defeating frenzies parents who have a valid point at times.

So, you agree with the politicians that want to violate the constitution? Because banning sales of mature games to minors is what a lot of the politicos have been pushing for. The problem they run into is that games are speech, and as such you can't regulate their distribution without violating the first amendment. The only way to do so is either classify them as obscene or prove they're as bad as shouting fire in a crowded theater. The outlook for this gets even worse, as removing the definitions of the moralist/religious types that you so hate would also move the vast majority of "obscene" content back into acceptable; which only further narrows what free speech haters like you can restrict.

5. By law, government critics cannot actually censor the content of games. Censorship right now occurs at a micro, supply side, level. For critics who enjoy bitching, allow them to bitch and cry themselves into the corner. Their bullshit morality and superstition are applicable only to those gullible and/or deluded to believe such nonsense. Step four should kill most bitching of this type.

Except that step four entails the whole violation of the first amendment and the constitutional rights of minors thing. Plus it would it create a chilling effect come to think of it. Fines and criminal charges for content judged to be "adult" getting into the hands of "children" by mistake would immediately start pushing people to self censor.

Really, after these points I'm not sure why you hate the moralists so much. You want pretty much the same thing as most of them - for adult content to be legally restricted with criminal charges for those that sell it to anyone under the age of majority.
I remember when I was young and I got a toy gun for my birthday. I'd play with my friends and we would run around and pretend to kill eachother. The gun used caps and let out some smoke. My friends got some as well and one of my friends got a toy combat knife. But none of this compares to the evil Wii controller that has more of a phallic quality.

Where was Mrs. Moral then? Oh, that's right, she wasn't running for president, so she didn't jump on board every last issue that comes her way. The interesting thing is that now, us gamers are the voters. Of course, with the way she stands on the issues, I wouldn't be surprised if a report comes out that she is giving copies of Manhunt 2 to underprivileged children.

Personally, I believe the ESRB does a fine job rating games when self important critics don't interfere. Its up to the stores to enforce it the ratings, like it is up to the stores to not sell R rated movies to kids. In the end, AO is really a kiss of death for games, as there are no special stores for AO games like there are for X rated movies. This is quite clearly just flexing of political muscle to look good for 2008.

Or it's not. What do I know?
@Gray17


At one point the MPAA did use the X-rating. But as it was not trademarked the porn industry(You know the actual porn industry and not Jack's delusional theory about the video game industry) started lampooning the rating by rating their movies XX or XXX. So eventually the X rating was replaced with NC-17. So Tyler's theory still stands.
@Erik

I know they used it for a while, but the point is that it currently is the NC-17 rating. The current "X rating" is unrelated to the MPAA for the reasons you mention. So comparing the AO rating with X instead of NC-17 which is the MPAA's direct analog to the AO rating, is comparing apples and oranges.
...Actually its more like comparing apples and apples. Its moot semantics. NC-17 is X. So to make it more clear AO is like whatever the MPAA is deciding to call their most mature rating at the present time.
…Actually its more like comparing apples and apples.

No, it's comparing the game industry's highest rating to unrated porn. I'd call that apples and oranges.

NC-17 is X.

Not anymore. It used to be, but it isn't now. Hence those specialty stores selling X-rated movies that Tyler mentioned have nothing to do with the MPAA. Trying to say they do because the MPAA used X for a rating at one point is like trying to say M rated games are rated by the MPAA because they used the M rating at one point.

So to make it more clear AO is like whatever the MPAA is deciding to call their most mature rating at the present time.

See that's the point, Tyler mentions specialty stores for X rated movies. But the fact of the matter is that anything "Rated X" these days isn't rated by the MPAA. So to say that the MPAA has specialty stores for the purpose of selling their highest rating is wrong. They don't, plain old retail stores will carry NC-17 movies. Yet those same retail stores refuse to carry the game industry's equivalent to NC-17.
"Not anymore. It used to be, but it isn’t now."

Hence why its outdated vernacular, but the point remains the same. After the MPAA converted the X rating to an NC-17 rating there ceased to be an X-rating. Ergo there would be no specialty shops which sell X-rated movies as the rating has been, again, converted to NC-17.
@Pandralisk

You know, the one thing that honestly comes out to me in your post is that it's very likely that someone who called themselves a Christian hurt you once, and very very badly, and that you've associated what they did with the religion as a whole. This would explain why you have so much bile and rancor towards the religion.

If this is the case, and I can't say for sure that it is, then whatever hateful and hurtful thing this person did, he was not representing Christ or Christianity when he did it, and for whatever it's worth, I apologize on behalf of my religion.

That said, I disagree vehemently with your viewpoints. If you honestly read the Bible and all you could see was hate and ugliness, then you were blinding yourself. It's the greatest story of love ever.

Humanity chose to separate from God. In brief, so as to not get too far off the point here, should that separation not be rectified, God will ultimately completely turn away from that individual, something I believe to be far more painful than any literal lake of fire (I believe in this life, even your vilest killers have a sense deep down that God is with them and loves them even if they've completely hardened their hearts to it.)

It's all about choice. It's all about accepting a gift. Am I a better person than anyone else here because I'm a Christian? No. Do I want to censor games? No. Therefore, it follows that Christians don't want to censor games. People, some of whom happen to be Christians, want to censor games.

But if your hateful, and frankly bigoted behavior keeps up, you're going to end up banned. Not because the Christians censored you, but because your rants are amounting to off topic and offensive trolling that is coming up in nearly every single topic you post in.
I don't know how this thread turned into an anti-christian rant but you people sure know how to get off topic.

In regards to the actual letter that this chain should be about, I think the senators need to play Nintendo Wii. The "realistic" motion that they cite as training our kids to be killers are not at all realistic. The Wii is fun, but the motion sensitivity is not at a level where it imitates your body motions. Normally a good shake is enough to satisify the sensors for just about any move in a game.

In my limited and extremely unprofessional opinion, these senators have never touched a video game. I know they're all too extremely busy trying to get reelected to even bother doing their jobs at 100% but you would think they would try and get more informed before writing a letter such as this travesty.
@NotPidgeonV2:

You do realize that the Jack Chicks of the world who interpret the bible literally, in my experience, tend to believe that evolution is a trick by Satan to make us all turn against God and that rock music is Satan’s way to turn us all to his evil Satanism (a religion, by the way, that has nothing to do with Satan).


First off, Jack Chick and his ilk don't follow a "literal" interpretation of the Bible. They follow a more "critical" view -- using human reasoning and other sources outside of the Bible to attempt to interpret the Bible -- and don't do a very good job of it. A "historical/literal" view of the Bible is a very simple one. The Bible is figurative where it is obviously figurative, otherwise it is to be taken as literal history. The words written are taken at their meaning, in the context as provided. "Critical thinking" is not used to attempt some abstract redefinition of the terms. Any difficult to understand passages are in turn looked up, to locate how the words are used in similar contexts from easier to understand passages -- the Bible is used exclusively to interpret the Bible, nothing else. When this is done, the hate-filled drivel of people like Jack Chick, Jack Thompson, etc.... all disappears. In fact, hate simply has no place in a Christian's life -- not saying that Christians are perfect, just that a Christian would want to not have hate rule his or her life. In fact, a Christian would basically do nothing of what our irritable friend Pandralisk seems to regularly state a Christian does.
@NotPidgeonV2: Second -- evolution doesn't have to be a trick of Satan's. Humanity is pretty darned good at tricking and fooling itself without constantly needing someone like Satan to do it all. Evolution (and by that, I mean "macro-evolution") is the efforts of human reason and logic to try to explain the origins of the universe without references to or reliance upon the supernatural. Unfortunately, much like any other theory of the origin of life, this is not something that is testable in a laboratory or empirically in any way. It is simply a guess, a conjecture. The sad thing is that people often look at the ideas of adaptation of a particular species to the environment (referred to in modern parlance as "micro-evolution"), and then apply that as being evidence of macro-evolution (origin of life)... It is an attempt to use something specific to explain something general, which much like the arguments to use school shootings to prove that video games cause violence is flawed, so is the notion of using micro-evolution to "prove" macro-evolution equally flawed.
@Xlorep DarkHelm:
Wait, what? I think you're confusing what I said with what I meant. When I said that evolution was a 'trick of Satan,' I was just using that as an EXAMPLE of what someone who holds fundamentalist Christian beliefs to a degree of insanity MIGHT say. As it just so happens, evolution is GENERALLY (See what I did there? You can't try to dispute accuracy here; all I'm saying is that it's the common belief) accepted as a fairly reasonable theory as to what happened, and many scientists are actually fairly certain of its accuracy. Does that mean that, in the end, it will definitely be the truth? No. Does it mean that it's more likely to be true than something I can come up with just now? Yes.
And I never said that Jack Chick and the likes interpret the bible literally as what it was supposed to be interpreted as; what I said (or at least what I meant) was that they believe that they are, and the whole point was really that, just as there are right-thinking people that hold Christian beliefs, there are also not sane people who hold WHAT THEY BELIEVE TO BE Christian beliefs.
@NotPigeonV2

I can only go by what you wrote, I can't read your mind to know what you meant. Sorry if I misunderstood.
I find the funny thing in this story that instead of attacking the group that is letting children play M rated games they want the company that hands out the ratings to make sure those games are not distributed by mass to the large group of adult gamers out there. I feel this is another way the government is saying "Hey parents shouldn't be doing their jobs so lets do it for them." Honestly worry about the war and the fact that the Canadian dollar is now worth more than the US dollar. Those seem to be real issues in the world today.
I think these soulless bastards deserve to be strapped into a chair & forced to listen to Celion Dion for 6 hours while watching gameplay. The ESRB is just doing it's job.
It is simply fucking astounding. Game critics actually writing a WELL THOUGHT OUT LETTER! I am dumbstruck. Albeit, many of the statements were false, but it amazes me that game critics are actually asking questions rather than jumping to a "cease and decist" like some certain other individuals have been. But Hitlery can keep her wrinkled, grubby hands off my games KTHXBAIBITCH!

GamePolitics ShoutBox

Posted 07/04/09 at 09:24pm
PHX Corp: For those that want to know what i watching it's called man vs cartoon(a.k.a fixing Wile E. coyote's Mistakes one trap at a time by EMERTEC)
Posted 07/04/09 at 08:20pm
GoodRobotUs: Went out for my Mum's 65th Birthday, which is the only relevance 4/7 has in the UK for me ;)
Posted 07/04/09 at 08:18pm
Andrew Eisen: Beach + fireworks + root beer + strawberries, blackberries, raspberries, whipped topping, and pound cake = my Fourth of July!
Posted 07/04/09 at 07:58pm
GoodRobotUs: Which seems to be the only point Jack proved, that some people find some games offensive. i.e. Nothing.
Posted 07/04/09 at 07:57pm
GoodRobotUs: The discussion was supposed to be whether games were dangerous not 'Do you find some games offensive'...
Posted 07/04/09 at 07:55pm
GoodRobotUs: Some agreed, some didn't, but it was their choice to make, not the governments.
Posted 07/04/09 at 07:55pm
GoodRobotUs: By asking the audience their opinion, he more or less proved that it's a matter of personal choice
Posted 07/04/09 at 07:55pm
GoodRobotUs: Meh, he ended proving Mark's point for him
Posted 07/04/09 at 07:26pm
Erik: Jack if you are reading this you are a LIAR. There is no legal weight to the MPAA's ratings.
Posted 07/04/09 at 07:24pm
JDKJ: I still think my buddy the midget who rides a unicycle backwards while juggling four bowling pins would have been a much bigger hit with that crowd. And he can make up statistics and misinterpret studies, too.
Posted 07/04/09 at 06:33pm
Alyric: Of course, Mark falls into the common trap about Columbine, which had nothing to do with bullying, etc. See: http://slate.msn.com/id/2099203/?GT1=3256 for a more thorough explanation.
Posted 07/04/09 at 06:32pm
PHX Corp: Read this http://www.destructoid.com/sgc-09-liveblogging-the-jack-thompson-debate-138502.phtml#ext
Posted 07/04/09 at 05:54pm
PHX Corp: JT is afraid of such ban then advocates it That's what i call a total Hypocrite
Posted 07/04/09 at 05:50pm
PHX Corp: AE: JT is a -Bleeping- Jackass
Posted 07/04/09 at 05:07pm
Andrew Eisen: JT "knew it would be a good audience." Not what he said on Tuesday.
Posted 07/04/09 at 05:01pm
Andrew Eisen: VG cause violent behavior. VG companies influence behavior to get sales. Yeah, that makes sense. (To be fair, the Twitter feed makes deciphering JT's point pretty tough.)
Posted 07/04/09 at 04:52pm
Andrew Eisen: Yes, it's been proposed but as far as I know it has not been passed. Big difference.
Posted 07/04/09 at 04:50pm
Cheater87: http://www.gamezine.co.uk/news/formats/xbox360/all-violent-video-games-be-banned-in-germany-$1301757.htm
Posted 07/04/09 at 04:49pm
Andrew Eisen: Far as I know, Germany has not banned all violent video games.
Posted 07/04/09 at 04:44pm
Cheater87: Jack wants the US to follow Germany's total video game ban.
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