Debate Ignores Gamers; Video Game Critic Romney Declines to Condemn Torture Practice

November 29, 2007 -
Like many GamePolitics readers, I was disappointed that none of the videos submitted by gamers made the final cut for last night's CNN/YouTube Republican debate.

To be fair, however, there are many other crucial issues such as Iraq, abortion, gun control, the economy and the influence of religion on politics. Host Anderson Cooper focused on these.

One telling moment for me, however, came when Mitt Romney could not bring himself to condemn the practice of waterboarding. Here's a guy who decries violent video games as part the "cultural cesspool" in which today's children are supposedly swimming but can't even find it within himself to condemn this acknowledged form of torture?

Sen. John McCain - who was a torture victim during his years of captivity by the North Vietnamese - absolutely ripped Romney on the issue and he was right to do so.

For Romney, the take-away is that virtual violence is a horror, but real-life torture is okay.

Governor, your hypocrisy is showing...

Here's the video of McCain-Romney exchange. Full text version after the jump.

UPDATE: Entertainment Consumers Association president Hal Halpin has weighed in on the debate: 
I was disappointed not to see a gamer question in much the same way that I was disheartened not to hear many other secondary, but important, questions posed.

The ECA member I ran into at PAX... put it into context well in that anyone watching a two hour debate on CNN very likely already knows where the candidates stand on the major issues, and it's certainly easy enough to find out otherwise.

What we don't know is where - or even "if" - they stand on the secondary matters. We won't let up however. Consumer rights are topically important and our demographic can and will be motivated to vote, but only if those politicians are willing to make the effort to speak to issues that are important to us.



Andrew Jones: Hello, gentlemen. I'm Andrew, and I'm a college student from Seattle, Washington. Recently, Senator McCain has come out strongly against using waterboarding as an instrument of interrogation.

My question for the rest of you is, considering that Mr. McCain is the only one with any firsthand knowledge on the subject, how can those of you sharing the stage with him disagree with his position?

Cooper: Governor Romney?

Romney: Well, he certainly is an expert and I certainly would want to get his counsel on a matter of this nature, but I do not believe that as a presidential candidate, it is wise for us to describe precisely what techniques we will use in interrogating people.

I oppose torture. I would not be in favor of torture in any way, shape or form.

Cooper: Is waterboarding torture?

Romney: And as I just said, as a presidential candidate, I don't think it's wise for us to describe specifically which measures we would and would not use. And that is something which I would want to receive the counsel not only of Senator McCain, but of a lot of other people.

And there are people who, for many, many years get the information we need to make sure that we protect our country. And, by the way, I want to make sure these folks are kept at Guantanamo. I don't want the people that are carrying out attacks on this country to be brought into our jail system and be given legal representation in this country. I want to make sure that what happened ...

(Applause)

... to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed happens to other people who are terrorists. He was captured. He was the so-called mastermind of the 9/11 tragedy. And he turned to his captors and he said, "I'll see you in New York with my lawyers." I presume ACLU lawyers.

(Laughter)

Well, that's not what happened. He went to Guantanamo and he met G.I.s and CIA interrogators. And that's just exactly how it ought to be.

(Applause)

Cooper: Senator McCain?

(Crosstalk)

(Unknown): There were reports Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded.

McCain: Well, governor, I'm astonished that you haven't found out what waterboarding is.

Romney: I know what waterboarding is, Senator.

McCain: Then I am astonished that you would think such a -- such a torture would be inflicted on anyone in our -- who we are held captive and anyone could believe that that's not torture. It's in violation of the Geneva Convention. It's in violation of existing law...

(Applause)

And, governor, let me tell you, if we're going to get the high ground in this world and we're going to be the America that we have cherished and loved for more than 200 years. We're not going to torture people.

We're not going to do what Pol Pot did. We're not going to do what's being done to Burmese monks as we speak. I suggest that you talk to retired military officers and active duty military officers like Colin Powell and others, and how in the world anybody could think that that kind of thing could be inflicted by Americans on people who are held in our custody is absolutely beyond me.

Cooper: Governor Romney, 30 seconds to respond.

(Applause)

Romney: Senator McCain, I appreciate your strong response, and you have the credentials upon which to make that response. I did not say and I do not say that I'm in favor of torture.

I am not. I'm not going to specify the specific means of what is and what is not torture so that the people that we capture will know what things we're able to do and what things we're not able to do. And I get that advice from Cofer Black, who is a person who was responsible for counterterrorism in the CIA for some 35 years.

I get that advice by talking to former generals in our military...

Cooper: Time.

Romney: ... and I don't believe it's appropriate for me, as a presidential candidate, to lay out all the issues one by one...

Cooper: Time.

Romney: ... get questioned one by one: Is this torture, is that torture?

Cooper: Senator McCain...

Romney: And so, that's something which I'm going to take your and other people's counsel on.

Cooper: Senator McCain, 30 seconds to respond.

McCain: Well, then you would have to advocate that we withdraw from the Geneva Conventions, which were for the treatment of people who were held prisoners, whether they be illegal combatants or regular prisoners of war. Because it's clear the definition of torture. It's in violation of laws we have passed.

And again, I would hope that we would understand, my friends, that life is not "24" and Jack Bauer.

Life is interrogation techniques which are humane and yet effective. And I just came back from visiting a prison in Iraq. The Army general there said that techniques under the Army Field Manual are working and working effectively, and he didn't think they need to do anything else.

My friends, this is what America is all about. This is a defining issue and, clearly, we should be able, if we want to be commander in chief of the U.S. Armed Forces, to take a definite and positive position on, and that is, we will never allow torture to take place in the United States of America.

(Applause)

 

Comments

Touche'

It's the government. Consumer rights be damned, this is the government.

@ Timmay!

Ron Paul lacks the consitsancy and drive that a president needs. Sure he has some firm followers and campaign sense, but the guy cannot handle a debate. He cannot discuss anything with out tripping up and falling back on his campaign. I have yet see him take a firm stance on anything.

@ Kitsu

I am not sure if that was sarcastic or serious, but I will respond to the latter.

The government is meant to serve and protect the people. We are the ones who matter. Unfortunately corruption and indifference from politicians have threatened that very principle. Sure Entertainment in the form of movies video games and music is a priviledge not a right, but the pursuit of happiness is an inalienble right as set forth in the constitution. Entertainment is part of our pursuit of happiness. Therefore, the DMCA, video game legislation etc. is threatening that right and needs to be addressed by the government. Corporations need protection too, but not at the expense of the people.

Wow I thought this place was about game politics not leftist politics.

WTF is up with this website and this guy always ragging on Romney. He damn near never rips Hillary for her stance on games even though she is FAR more vocal about it. Hell, Romney's stance is very general. He is against violence, etc. in media overall. Hillary is specifically targeting games.

But this liberal hack can't wait to bash Romney every time he can.

And what the hell is with the talk about waterboarding on this site? This is a GAMES site, not moveon.org. If you want to whine about waterboarding do it there , jeez. Did Bowser Waterboard Mario? Not that I am aware of (although I haven't finished Mario Galaxy yet so that scene may be in there). Then it doesn't belong on this board.

But since everyone else is talking about it, I might as well put my opinion out. I think you can guess it.

Waterboarding is a good thing. If we have someone in custody who knows some important info they should be interrogated. Waterboarding doesn' do any permanent damage. It just makes you feel like you have been drowning. Real torture is much more gruesome. It's what the terrorists do to our people when they get their hands on em.

We haven't even done waterboarding all that often. Only a few times like on that hairy Ron Jeremy wannabe, kal el sheikh mohammed. He folded like an origami swan when we did it to him.

Mcain's position has nothing to do with his personal experience, IMO. For years he has been a lib in the republican party. He frequently takes lib positions to become the darling of the left wing. The left loves republican losers like him that take their side.

In the end, this is my view. If you are against waterboarding you are either: A) Dishonest, B) A moron, or C) a fucking pussy.

Now lets leave this shit off this fucking board.

Actually, "life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness" are in the Declaration of independance, not the Constitution. While it's a nice, beautiful document, the Declaration is not a law or legal document.

@John Server


'In the end, this is my view. If you are against waterboarding you are either: A) Dishonest, B) A moron, or C) a fucking pussy.'

That kind of generalisation tells me everything I need to know about you. And I bet you'd waterboard anyone who didn't agree with you.

Lets just agree that we're going to to disagree on what you said and leave it at that. I really don't want to start a church/state argument because that's not the point of the article. I was only responding to pandra because he asked me something directly.

@ John Server

Wow. I have never seen anyone as vocal as you. Too bad you have never read any article on this site or you would have known that Hilary is bashed quite frequently.

This article is not really a bash on Romney. It is exposing a bias and contridiction in Romney's position. Romney is a vocal proponant against violent video game, but he supports real life torture. Doesn't make sense to me.

There are also different types of torture. You have physical torture (rack, vices etc.) There is also psycological torture such as waterboarding. Both types can have detrimental effects on the person and both need to be avoided. There are less dangerous and more effective types of interogation that can and should be used.

I don't really have a problem with his opinion that waterboarding is ok, that's something that will be decided by polls and public opinion, my problem is with the manner of approaching the debate.

And for those of you who are wondering, it's what I call a 'Thompson opinion', in other words, 'What I think is gospel and I consider anyone who doesn't agree with me to be either a criminal or mentally deficient'.

For some reason I have no time for people with that kind of attitude.

John Server, sit down and shut up, thanks.

Oh, and for clarification, I'm talking about the comment in this thread, not about Romney.

@Nicholas Thomson: Don't you know? Games are bad for our children's well being. You like games, you don't like children. That's the current political sentiment and the media ain't helped at all.

----
Papa Midnight

@John Server: Sit Down, oh you are sitting? Good. Disconnect your keyboard, microphone, RJ-11 or RJ-45 cable, your webcam, your printer, your telephone, and proceed to do us all a favor by shutting the fuck up, and using the remaining mouse and monitor to read prior post before further making yourself look like an absolute dumbass. Hilary is one of the most mentioned individuals on this website who could only be matched by Leeland Yee and super seceded by John Bruce Thompson who makes it part of his life mission to be mentioned on this blog no less than once a week.

As for waterboarding and all other means of torture, I'm not a moron, I'm not dishonest, so I guess by your standards, I'm "a fucking pussy" for believing that all persons should be treated humanely.

----
Papa Midnight

@ Scott

There was a good line in the book Starship Troopers by Heinlein about that. He basically said that "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" was a wonderful bit of poetry, but not plausible in the modern world. For example he says that while you should not have your life taken away, you also do not have the right to take way someone elses life, and are responsible for the lives of your children, family ect. However, the best part was that he said we all have the right to 'Pursue' happiness, but that doesn't mean we actually have to obtain it. In other words by being a citizen you are not entitled to a fancy car, a big TV or the like. Heinlein was very adamant that people should work for what they have and those who have the power of politics shoud have been willingness to server to protect their country (probably based on a Roman tradition). While much of his ideas are impractical now, they are thought provoking.

@Pandralisk -- I've come to doubt that you could actually get into a conversation without insulting religion.

I second E.Zachary Knight's latest comment.

@John Server - It is blatantly obvious that you do not follow this site, else you would have read the articles criticizing Hillary's involvement in anti-video game rallying/legislation (not to mention the comments that follow said articles).

"Waterboarding doesn’ (sic) do any permanent damage. "

Are you kidding me? Take a few minutes to Google "Psych 101 + torture" and read up on the affects of torture on the human mind.

"We haven’t even done waterboarding all that often."

So what branch of the US Government do you work for? CIA? FBI? Are you in the know on what goes on behind closed doors?

"In the end, this is my view. If you are against waterboarding you are either: A) Dishonest, B) A moron, or C) a fucking pussy.

Now lets leave this shit off this fucking board. "

I am the grandson of a WW2 veteran. I am the son of a Vietnam veteran. I believe in defending my country against outside threats.

My day time job consists of developing simulations meant to train soldiers so that they are better prepared to do their jobs and make it back home alive.

I'd gladly defend my family to the death, if need be.

I'd rather be punished to the fullest extent, rather than lie my way out of my mistakes.

I am completely against waterboarding, so do you wish to amend your last few statements to accommodate where I fall in your twisted logic?

Check the tag line for this site: "Where politics and video games collide."

It appears you are having a difficult time correlating the purpose of this article to video games.

I'm against torture, and I'm not any of the three. You can call me a fucking pussy all you want; it takes greater will to NOT do anything than to resort to violence. Although...

Pandralisk: "Myself and thousands of Americans would rather die in a terrorist attack than see the country we love contradict itself by torturing a human being."

That ^ doesn't not speak for me. I don't support torture, but I won't let myself get killed over one person, when there are others who do need me here more than some stranger half a world away. And, the country already contradicts itself every damn day.

To those who are pro-torture to save Americans: Violence only brings more violence. Kill one one of theirs, they kill 10 of ours, we kill 100 of theirs, they kill 1000 of ours.

I wish I had my old hard-drive as I did a full-writeup on torture and it's use for our "protection". For those of you supporting all this muck, take a day out of your life, sit down, read the Patriot Act and the Geneva Convention.

Sadly I have given up hope on this election. There is no lesser of two evils. Obama (I'm sad to say that he won't get elected because of the color of his skin and his upbringing in a Muslim setting), Clinton (This is the US, not the UK you idiot, freedom of speech all that good stuff), Edwards, Guliani ("9/11,9/11,9/11, I was there on 9/11. Just don't marry me, you might find me dressed up as a woman, but I will say what the voters want to hear.") all failures.

Don't try to feed me this Ron Paul b.s. line either. The man has no consistency and a bunch of rabid supporters who are more of a danger than a help.

The system is imploding and if a revolution starts it will have worldwide implications and destabilizing effects everywhere. Sadly I don't see any other future outcome at the moment. Maybe 2012 will shed some thin ray of hope, 2008 is a wash.

"Lets just agree that we’re going to to disagree on what you said and leave it at that. "

Agree to disagree on Separation of Church and Sate? No. When you discuss Romney, in particular, religion must be factored in, because the man is so vocal about it, you can easily conclude he will take his religion with him into the Presidency, and quite frankly, that is against the Freedom of Religion. I am free to believe the giant spaghetti monster produces all souls, but I won't be making policy desisions based on that belief. We are certainly free to disagree on the issues, abortion, gay rights, etc. But when you start talking about making those into laws (as Romney does - hence the relevance to this article), the Constitution trumps either viewpoint.

~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~

I just wish I could find an article I read a while ago about how a massive percentage of information gleaned from torture turns out to be inaccurate.

Ron Paul FTW

@MacBoy - Thank you for that stunning contribution to the discussion =)

@jkdjr25 - Excellent reminder of why history is an important subject to pay attention to. I'm one of the few that believes my girlfriend's degree in history studies is more valuable than my own (her job is also more important than my own)

Now, on topic with the article, I too am disappointed that issues involving video games were not brought up. Addressing secondary issues can result in that little nudge citizens need to walk down to a local voting booth.

The 2008 elections is becoming like the "Alien VS Predator" movie:
It's overhyped, overrated, and we are all going to be dissapointed with the ending. And lest not forget the tagline: "Whoever wins, we lose".

@mort
What you say is the truth. If 2012 isn't better, I fear what will be around the corner.

Dissapointingly, video games aren't THAT big of an issue compared to the Iraq War, Impeachment of Bush Administration and its former members, and the EEEEEEEEEVIL SATAN SPAWN Universal Health Care (that many European nations use. Google it if you don't believe me.)

Well, I wouldn't be too crazy about it. It is not like there is a law against playing videogames. Plus JT seems to make the "Moral Conservative" look like a bunch of biblethumping idiots.

Is this where I should point out that the Geneva Conventions provides that illegal combatants can be shot immediately upon capture? Wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of McCain's rhetoric.

@George
*entering sarcasm mode for viewer protection*

Yeah, he's just full of it isn't he. I mean its not like McCain was EVER tortured...oh wait.

Thanks for the history lesson. Amend my post to nix "the Constitution" and replace that with "2 centuries of judicial ruling" and my point is unchanged.

And where did I say a person with faith has to turn it off when becoming an elected official?

I did say, that policy decisions made to enforce a religious view (specifically - anti-abortion, anti-gay-rights) are contrary to rulings enforcing the separation of church and state. And nowhere did I even mention, " [a] Christian can’t run for office, [snip] a Christian in office can’t pray about the issues in his office," so thank you for making an issue where the was none.

As to the "insanity" you refer, I assume you mean the issue with the commandments in courts, prayer in schools, etc. Once again, I am against any Federal mandate enforcing either a ban or approval any of those issues (leaning once again on the separation of chuch and state). I feel that these isses are best dealt with locally first, regionally second, state-level third, and supreme court only in it's finality (when all other avenues are explored and there is real evidence of religious prejudice - i.e. little Jimmy the X-tian is beat up for wanting to pray in a school, or little Freddy the Wiccan is forced to participate in prayer).

However, becuse of our immediate response of, "why doesn't the government do anything!" when we get offended - we have the "insanity" that you refer to. We make national issues of the smallest thing, thanks scare mongering newsmedia. It all comes back to parental responsibility in the end. Lazy or stupid parents either won't (or can't) explain why different religions exist, so they fall back on "protecting" their kids by hiding all other views until their personal ones are rote. It's ignorance, really. And the incapability of a good many religious people to think and defend their faith on their own terms - being either only able to spout back mantra or violently demonize contrary faiths. It's sad, really, because one of the main culprits in this issue has such beautiful ideas that are so easily ignored.

Whatever happened to love thy neighbor? Or at the very least, live and let live.

~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~

@~The1Jeffy - I'm so going to make a casual game titled "Freddy the Wiccan"

Pure awesome-ness

@~thejeffy1

Why mention abortion? It's not a religious issue at all, despite the fact that some people try to make it such. Someone can easily oppose abortion without having to be making "policy decisions made to enforce a religious view."

Hmm, I want to be careful here so that I don't help drag things too off-topic... then again, this particular article had more of traditional political theme to it then most here.

@Mad_Scientist

Same can be said of same-sex marriage.

Not that I oppose it.

Of course, the whole issue that seems to be ignore about torture is the Constitutional Amendment against cruel and unusual punishment. Call me crazy on this one, but torture is cruel and uses 'unusual' methods.

"I’m not going to specify the specific means of what is and what is not torture so that the people that we capture will know what things we’re able to do and what things we’re not able to do. And I get that advice from Cofer Black, who is a person who was responsible for counterterrorism in the CIA for some 35 years."

LOL. Cofer Black was head of CIA CounterTerrorist Center from 1999-2002. 9/11 happened on his watch (and he's been blamed by many for failure to notify the FBI that 2 of the hijackers had entered the U.S.), Bin Laden escaped on his watch, and countless Afghan and Pakistani CIVILIANS were bought from the Afghan rebels as POWs and detained indefinitely under his watch. Now he's vice-president of Blackwater. And Mitt Romney has chosen him to be his counterterrorism policy advisor? WTF? Taking this guy's advice on the use of torture is like taking Rumsfeld's advice on troop levels.

@GryphonOsiris

A lot of the debate is centered around whether waterboarding is cruel and unusual enough to be considered "torture."

Then there are those who couldn't care if it's torture, they see justification in utilizing it if it extracts information from a subject that saves lives.

As for me, I haven't really followed the issue closely enough to come to an informed decision.

On the subject of torture:

The real world works very differently then the 24 world, in that torture is about the most unreliable form of information gathering there is.

@Ace

i have yet to see an anti-Gay Marriage argument that DIDN'T involve religion.

A few other things:

@the1jeffy

"And where did I say a person with faith has to turn it off when becoming an elected official? "

You did say this:

" he will take his religion with him into the Presidency, and quite frankly, that is against the Freedom of Religion."

I can easily see how jkdr25 interpreted it as he did.

There seems to be a common view that a person needs to seperate his/her religious views from his/her political views. This is complete and utter nonsense, and pretty much impossible for one to do assuming one actually has any genuine beliefs. A person's religious/spiritual views are one of the greatest factors that influence his moral views, and those 2 things cannot be seperated from each other as a result. So if you want to seperate spiritual views from politics, you really have to completely seperate moral views from politics. This may actually sound good to some people, untill you consider what moral views really are: a person's view on what is right and wrong. Do we really want people's political views to be completely unrelated to what they actually think is right or wrong? Wait, considering the amount of immoral politicians we have, that may already be the case. Do we really want to enforce that then?

What people DO need to do, and what some fail to do, is recognize the position government is supposed to have. It is not the responsibilty of the US to enforce everything, or to even get involved in certain things. For example, while I believe adultery is immoral, I would never ever suggest the US legal system ban it or anything. It is not the role of the government to deal with things like that.

But consider abortion for a moment. Now, I can tell you support it, and apparently don't believe it is killing. But try to put yourself in the viewpoint of the other side for a sec. Imagine if you will that abortion IS killing. Well, in that case, I think it is an issue for the government to get involved in, correct?

Now, some people make mistakes regarding the abortion issue. There are certain Bible passages that are often interpreted to mean that life begins at conception, but using those passages to argue against abortion in the political arena is foolish and just falls into the trap of making abortion look like a religious issue, and helps people stereotype all foes of it as "religious nutcase extremists trying to enforce their spiritual views". There are plenty of people who aren't Christian but who also oppose abortion, and the have come to their view based on scientific and medical evidence.

Unfortunately, so much of the debate on the abortion issue is distorted nowadays, that half the times people are arguing things that are really completely unrelated to it.

@ace tsiehta: how is rejecting the idea of same sex marriage Not associated with religious prejudices? If you mention a declining birth rate in scandinavia (JT ref), I truly will crap myself.

I agree that 'torture' does have a lot of gray area, however, when something is so far out on the fringe (i.e. waterboarding), I think we can safely say it's torture. After all, we have called it torture in the past. If you still have any doubt, talk with a navy pilot that experienced it in SERE school, and ask his opinion.

@ Mad_Scientist: what you say about not seperating the religion from the candidate makes sense. with that in mind, i think we should start opening up the debate to include religious views. currently people avoid it like the plague for fear of offending anyone. since this background is going to inform their decisions while in office, we should be able to examine and debate those views.

You know from my viewpoint all of the candidates for president are idiots. Could we please get someone with an IQ of over the average? Really both political parties are messed up. Republicans are close-minded and hate when their values are challenged, and the Democrats will probably bankrupt America. With the politicians we have already I'm surpirsed that America is still here!! I mean with "free-speech" zones and being silenced if we object....Where are the good people?

@conejo

what, those little cubes you put in water to make soup?

Heh, no. The movie. Specifically, the scene where the Iraqi (trained by the US during the Iran-Iraq war) uses "enhanced interrogation" on the US soldier.
-- If your wiimote goes snicker-snack, check your wrist-strap...

"John Server Says:

November 29th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
Wow I thought this place was about game politics not leftist politics.

WTF is up with this website and this guy always ragging on Romney. He damn near never rips Hillary for her stance on games even though she is FAR more vocal about it. Hell, Romney’s stance is very general. He is against violence, etc. in media overall. Hillary is specifically targeting games.

But this liberal hack can’t wait to bash Romney every time he can.

And what the hell is with the talk about waterboarding on this site? This is a GAMES site, not moveon.org. If you want to whine about waterboarding do it there , jeez. Did Bowser Waterboard Mario? Not that I am aware of (although I haven’t finished Mario Galaxy yet so that scene may be in there). Then it doesn’t belong on this board.

But since everyone else is talking about it, I might as well put my opinion out. I think you can guess it.

Waterboarding is a good thing. If we have someone in custody who knows some important info they should be interrogated. Waterboarding doesn’ do any permanent damage. It just makes you feel like you have been drowning. Real torture is much more gruesome. It’s what the terrorists do to our people when they get their hands on em.

We haven’t even done waterboarding all that often. Only a few times like on that hairy Ron Jeremy wannabe, kal el sheikh mohammed. He folded like an origami swan when we did it to him.

Mcain’s position has nothing to do with his personal experience, IMO. For years he has been a lib in the republican party. He frequently takes lib positions to become the darling of the left wing. The left loves republican losers like him that take their side.

In the end, this is my view. If you are against waterboarding you are either: A) Dishonest, B) A moron, or C) a fucking pussy.

Now lets leave this shit off this fucking board."

Cute, we have a Fascist. Would you allow yourself to be waterboarded, so you can experience it? And we'll give you a thin paper book to put over your head, so that when we beat you with Hammers, you can't complain.

Er, Jabr, Conejo was quoting the movie, which I thought was damn good, by the way.

@smeagol23

I have a friend who hates religion yet is very homophobic (I've given up debating it with him, I try to avoid the issue when around him) and opposes same sex marriage. I don't know if he's an extreme minority in this regard, but I'm merely pointing out that you don't need overt religious bias to be opposed to gay marriage.

However, it could be that growing up in the Bible belt USA has had a pervasive influence on him.

I wonder if we waterboarded Rommey, I wonder what information he will give us?

Maybe we can get him admit corruption or get him to say anything we want him too.

@jkdjr25, formerly bayushisan

I appreciate the history lesson, but it looks like you are a little off. The First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." So congress cannot make laws that are the will of religion alone. Such as, arguably, abortion and gay marriage.

I agree that these candidates don't have to abandon their faith when in office. Gerald Ford was an excellent example of this; he was a very religious man (Episcopalian). Unfortunately, his refusal to use his faith to rally support caused him to lose to Jimmy Carter, who beat the drum of his Baptist faith and won over the Bible Belt.

On second thought Hilary Clinton might be more fun to waterboard

On third thought, I really wanna waterboard Jack Thompson, Sam Brownback, Joseph I. Lieberman along with Hilary Clinton

@ E. Zachary Knight Says "...I have yet see him take a firm stance on anything."

I'm not gonna lie to you, you've made my head explode. I humbly ask you to find anything ambiguous about the issues on this page: http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/

There is a secular/legal basis for the issues surrounding gay marriage, which focuses on the simple fact that same-sex couples cannot bear children on their own. Simply put, if people don't make babies, the nation doesn't have people to run businesses, operate machinery, defend the country, help the economy function, etc. In a way bearing children is a service to the state, and since it's also a huge hassle the state gives tax breaks and other such benefits to family units that raise children. The argument is that since a same-sex family can't procreate it is of less use to the state, so the state shouldn't extend the same benefits to same-sex couples that it does to 'conventional' couples.
I'm not saying it's a good argument, necessarily - just that it exists.
 
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MaskedPixelanteThis whole Twitch thing just reeks of Google saying "You thought you could get away from us and our policies. That's adorable."07/25/2014 - 2:52pm
Sleaker@james_fudge - hopefully that's the case, but I wont hold my breath for it to happen.07/25/2014 - 1:08pm
SleakerUpdate on crytek situation is a bit ambiguous, but I'm glad they finally said something: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-07-25-crytek-addresses-financial-situation07/25/2014 - 1:07pm
E. Zachary KnightMan Atlas, Why do you not want me to have any money? Why? http://www.atlus.com/tears2/07/25/2014 - 12:06pm
Matthew WilsonI agree with that07/25/2014 - 10:45am
james_fudgeI think Twitch will have more of an impact on how YouTube/Google Plus work than the other way around.07/25/2014 - 10:22am
IanCWelp, twitch is going to suck now. Thanks google.07/25/2014 - 6:30am
Sleaker@MP - Looked up hitbox, thanks.07/24/2014 - 9:40pm
Matthew WilsonI agree, but to me given other known alternatives google seems to the the best option.07/24/2014 - 6:30pm
Andrew EisenTo be clear, I have no problem with Google buying it, I'm just concerned it will make a slew of objectively, quantifiably bad changes to Twitch just as it's done with YouTube over the years.07/24/2014 - 6:28pm
Matthew WilsonI doubt yahoo has the resources to pull it off, and I not just talking about money.07/24/2014 - 6:15pm
SleakerI wouldn't have minded a Yahoo purchase, probably would have been a better deal than Tumblr seeing as they paid the same for it...07/24/2014 - 6:13pm
MaskedPixelanteIt's the golden age of Hitbox, I guess.07/24/2014 - 6:08pm
Matthew Wilsonagain twitch was going to get bought. It was just who was going to buy it . Twitch was not even being able to handle the demand, so hey needed a company with allot of infrastructure to help them. I can understand why you would not want Google to buy it .07/24/2014 - 5:49pm
Andrew Eisen"Google is better than MS or Amazon" Wow. Google, as I mentioned earlier, progressively makes almost everything worse and yet there are still two lesser options. Again, wow!07/24/2014 - 5:43pm
Andrew EisenI don't know. MS, in my experience, is about 50/50 on its products. It's either fine or it's unusable crap. Amazon, well... I've never had a problem buying anything from them but I don't use any of their products or services so I couldn't really say.07/24/2014 - 5:42pm
Matthew WilsonGoogle is better than MS or Amazon.07/24/2014 - 5:33pm
Sleaker@AE - I've never seen youtube as a great portal to interact with people from a comment perspective. like ever. The whole interface doesn't really promote that.07/24/2014 - 5:28pm
 

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