December 11, 2007
Vince Desi, head honcho at Running with Scissors, is no stranger to controversy. His Postal franchise remains a target for video game violence critics long after the last game in the series (2003's Postal 2) was released.During a lengthy 1up interview, Desi dishes on a variety of topics related to the politics of video games today:
From a developer's point of view the main problem or frustration with the ESRB is that they hold the power to crown you or hang you. Unfortunately they are not really an independent organization, they are owned by the large publishers, so there really is not independence...
If the ESRB gives your game a AO rating, you're not going to be in any store in America, period. You can call it anything you want, but that's the bottom line. Where's Barak Obama? I'd love to hear his views on the video game industry. He's the only person running for President that speaks with a straight tongue, and I'm a conservative libertarian...
Desi also raises the popular connotation of "Adults Only" and how that affects its application as a video game rating.
AO translates to PORN for a lot of people... I'm not against sex in video games; we just need to have a more accurate rating system. What's AO today should really be M, and then just have a new rating called X, and that should be for 18 and over only...
Our industry has done a very poor job of educating all the players involved. From developers and publishers to distributors and retailers, not to mention the press, game and mainstream, hey throw in ignorant politicians too and what do we have? A big f***in' mess...
Games are simply not respected, the industry is misunderstood. We as an industry have hurt ourselves; we don't stand up for anything, let alone gamers' rights. We need to give the retailers a system they can trust, depend on, and give them political cover, so that they can do what they are supposed to do: mainly offer shelf space for products desired by consumers...
Of the controversy surrounding his own games, Desi added:
Postal is far from the most violent game out there, and the ESRB has rated all Postal games M, but try to find it at a big retailer, good luck... It was easier for all the game industry players to let us be their scapegoat. We in effect gave them the political cover they needed while they sold GTA...
...the Manhunt controversy is a good thing because it has brought this issue to the discussion table.
The blame for the state in which games currently find themselves in can be spread around, according to Desi:
Politicians (lying asses), Publishers (kissing retailer ass), Retailers (do anything to keep their asses clean), Developers (kissing publisher ass while looking for their balls) and PLAYERS for not getting up off their asses to DEMAND THEIR RIGHTS TO BUY AND PLAY whatever games they want!
I encourage everyone to write their congressman, and start screaming "I want my videogames!" before it's too late.
Comments
So Desi. Stop criticising us for not demanding being able to play anything we want, and actually make something we want to play.
"I want my videogames. But I want them to be playable"
I agree whole heartedly.
I guess f.y.e. and Frys are not stores in America according to Desi. YOu can find AO games in stores just not Gamestop and Wal-Mart. But I guess you can't find them for any system outside PC. Maybe that is where he is coming from?
I do agree that there is a lot of inaction from all levels, but his choice of words and attitude don't really help the situation any. He comes across as a spurned fan boy who favorite console just fell to last place and is likely to close up shop.
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
Random Tower: Game News and Commentary
No one expects EVERYTHING made to be liked by EVERYONE. That's what needs to be realized. You aren't expected to like everything. If you're so desperate for something you like, make it yourself. That's what it comes down to. Don't like the current library of romantic books? Make your own and don't read the ones you don't like. Don't like what is in rap music to date? Don't listen to it. Make your own.
Not everyone likes every genre. Not everyone likes every product withint every genre. No one is EXPECTED to. But serious critics and politicians alike share one common thread: "I don't like it, so you shouldn't make it and you shouldn't be able to buy it for yourself or your children!"
We, as individuals, should have the Right to make our own decisions as to what is or is not appropriate for ourselves and our own children. We shouldn't be dictated to by any individual, organization, or government. Note that I say "dictated" which is different from someone offering their OPINION, which we may follow or not follow at our own discretion.
Desi's games DO have a following. They are bought. How do I know? Because he's still in business. If no one was interested, no one would buy them and he'd be out of business. It's that simple.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
That is the truth, but sadly there is no way to force them
I'm not familiar with "f.y.e and frys".
But, yes, I think it would be consistant if one could find AO games at specialty stores such as Gamestop and the like. One can find high rated movies at specialty stores such as SunCoast which sell "regular" videos, even children's videos, as well, but not Wal Mart, so why not have specialty stores carry high rated games. (When I say "high rated movies", I'm referring to the like of Playboy video calendar and the NC-17 late night Cinemax movies, not the XXX movies which go to a fully adult video store.)
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Not that long ago Gamestop was talking about starting to allow certain AO rated games. And of course you could order them online.
We would be able to play the uncut versions of games like Manhunt 2 and The Punisher if the damn companies of the consoles allowed AO rated games on their systems.
Those companies should be urged to do that so the adults would be happy and the situation would be solved.
Then his comment is without validity or merit.
In the USA, you have the ECA which is designed as an advocacy group for gamers rights, demanding they are able to play what they want. In the UK there isn't such a group, but if the ECA would like to start a UK branch I would certainly be heavily involved with activities.
People do demand that they can play they games they want to play. However, people won't demand that they can play bad games as they don't want to play them. Running With Scissors has been minorly successful, but the majority of that success has been down to the nature of the "obscene" content within the games they make, rather than the gameplay itself. If they got both right, they'd be a smash hit rather than "cult", which is what i'm sure they'd like to have on their hands.
The Postal and Manhunt games are like streakers at sporting events. They throw an obscene gesture in here and there, but overall, its small pointless and only lasts a couple of minutes before everyone forgets it and goes on to the task in hand.
If certain developers made high quality games with "shocking and obscene" content in it, then there might be a better argument from someone from Desi to say we should demand to play whatever we can play. Until the gameplay outweighs the controversy then people just aren't gonna play some of this stuff.
I suppose the point is. I could make my own if I so wished, not that its easy to do that in the industry... However, the makers out there can't complain about gamers going out and buying things. If they made a game worth buying, I'd buy it regardless of the level of mature content in it.
So far RWS hasn't.
f.y.e. is an 'entertainment' store. They sell everything from music to movies to video games. There is one in Oklahoma City and others across to the US. I am not sure what their range is though.
Fry's Electronic store is a large Best Buy times ten type store. Tey have huge selections of movies and games. Last time I was there was years ago unfortunately. When I was there last time, the AO rate Leisure Suit Larry Magna Cum Laude was available.
I am sure that there are other stores that are willing to stock AO games, if they were available. Unfortunately, consoles don't license them and Publishers only think in terms of Gamestop and Wal-mart when they consider keeping AO games. They don't realize that the people who like those kinds of games are willing to go to a store they never heard of to find the game they want. These publishers think that people only shop at major chains like Wal-mart Best Buy and target.
@ halofantasy
Gamestop said that they would consider AO games on a case by case basis. They never said they would let any AO game in their store, but you really can't ask them to do anythng different.
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
Random Tower: Game News and Commentary
Do you really want to hear more know-nothing politicans spew their lies to the foolish boobs out here? I know for sure we will hear an absurd amount of bitching from everyone. Rockstar already takes a lot of heat with everything they do.
"protect teh childrenz" comes to mind.
Regardless of the fact the game would be geared towards adults. Hell, Rockstar doesn't even make games for the younger crowd (Well, maybe except that one ping-pong game). Neverthless, We live in the land of the ignorant... Besides I doubt they'd drop the whole AO thing for GTA, especially Nintendo...
Consdiering the fact that they never even get GTA games, and that they're *Nintendo*.
"Games are simply not respected, the industry is misunderstood. We as an industry have hurt ourselves; we don’t stand up for anything, let alone gamers’ rights. We need to give the retailers a system they can trust, depend on, and give them political cover, so that they can do what they are supposed to do: mainly offer shelf space for products desired by consumers…"
If I could pick a new ESA president and ESRB representive, Vince Desi would be on the top of that list. People don't give a crap that the games they play are defiled, edited, watered down, contextualized, and manipulated for the sake of upholding artifical moral standards and protecting the children. They're more than willing to buy the Xth sequel of a franchise from the late 1980s, or delve into a plot that is about as deep and meaningful as the average Manga in a fourteen year old's collection.
Thank you.
If the politicians start stomping on the AO games, what's next? M games, which are the ones we (mostly) care about. Even if we dislike the Manhunt and Postal games, there still is MGS, Halo, and Mass Effect.
MGS, Halo and Mass Effect which have better stories, narratives, gameplay and use perceived violence (in fact there isn't that much in all three) as a side to the gameplay, whereas your manhunt and postals ignore all of that and concentrate on the gore and violence. I know what I'd rather play.
Its games like Postal and Manhunt that endanger the games that don't use violence as a selling point. Its not the case that we should support poor games for violence sake, we should support quality games. If Postal III is well made, I'll praise it, but I highly doubt it.
Games are simply not respected, the industry is misunderstood.
otherwise his idea for AO=M and new X=AO
NO you said AO it wont be sold in america soooo M should stay M not go to AO
I have to agree here, the AO rating has, due to it's name, made itself into the Porn rating in the eyes of a vast amount of people. Which has then earned it the effective 'banned' rating it is now.
Due to the mess the AO rating has become, the M rating is now used for a far too large age range compared to what it was intended to be. It's effectively M + AO rating in one now.
I never saw AO games in fye. O_o
Oh well, they pretty much suck when it comes to games anyway. Well, they don't suck, but they could do better.
that game will be rated M for retarted antics and disruption of the first amendment and communism
Considering there hasn't been a main stream AO release in a couple of years it is no surprise that you could not find one.
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
Random Tower: Game News and Commentary
The "target audience" for Postal, Vinny, is either too young to matter (politically), or too immature to care. For a man that makes his living off of contreversy, I'm sure suprised he wants to stop it. Anyway, he makes some very good points about governmental intrusion, and gives a very true-to-form industry insider view of the history of the whole issue. Not suprisingly he paints himself with a martyr's brush.
Either make games with merit, or let me return the game for a full refund once I've played the POS. Try walking in a consumer's shoes - all too often we are forced to defend the GTA's, Postals, Manhunts, etc. when we would be better served by game developers using graphic violence, sex, etc. to make BETTER GAMES. I'd love to stand behind you, Vince, but your games have little or no merit. (They are of a decent 'quality' - coding, graphics, etc., but we are talking about the larger picture of Free Speech and censorship.)
Then again, I know they are no 'threat' to anyone with a brain and some parenting, but calling me out about, "getting off your [my] ass . . ?" That implies you think I'm lazy. So your customers are lazy? Not the best approach I'd take, but free speech is free speech. Thanks for using it so revealingly, Vinny.
When your not spouting anti religious non sense you make a lot of sense.
Because what have we gotten so far? AO games that were clearly intended to piss people off, instead of spectactular masterpieces with just the right amount of sex and violence.
Desi needs to just shut up and get to work on that.
Well considering we have had a drought a good movies that would be interesting.
I personally don't understand why people gravitate towards the controversial instead on the good.
I think you two have summed up what I was saying perfectly.
I'll take criticism from CliffyB when Gears of War 2 comes out, I'll take it from Koyjima when MGS4 is out... I'll take it from Ken Levine when Bioshock 2 hits and I'll take it from David Jones when GTA5 arrives (even though hes not associated with it anymore, you know what I mean).
But from Desi, when his games are frankly, abysmal and part of the problem of the unfair backlash.... I don't think so!
That or they're too stupid to understand the video games aren't just for kids.
"MGS, Halo and Mass Effect which have better stories, narratives, gameplay and use perceived violence (in fact there isn’t that much in all three) as a side to the gameplay, whereas your manhunt and postals ignore all of that and concentrate on the gore and violence. I know what I’d rather play.
Its games like Postal and Manhunt that endanger the games that don’t use violence as a selling point. Its not the case that we should support poor games for violence sake, we should support quality games. If Postal III is well made, I’ll praise it, but I highly doubt it."
Just because YOU feel that way doesn't mean everybody else has to. Like Nightwing said, these games have supporters, and just because you don't like it doesn't mean they shouldn't be made, and doesn't mean that they aren't important.
You're really missing the point. It's the fact that AO games aren't even given the chance. How are we to know if such-and-such a game is even good if I can't even buy it?
Bad games are made. In any media, that's the way it works. You make it sound like stores won't carry these games because they're bad games. They don't. They carry tons of terrible games. They don't carry these games because of the content and rating.
At this point, developers have to make sure that the games aren't too violent or sexual, or else they won't get into stores. What if they didn't have this limitation? What if they came up with something really, really good but it got an AO rating? A lot of the material would hit the cutting room floor.
I'm not so much defending bad games such as Manhunt 2 or Postal 2, but I am defending their right to be sold to the public.
"You’re really missing the point. It’s the fact that AO games aren’t even given the chance."
Name one AO game that is worth a damn, and I will stand aside to your point. Either we get Leisure Suit Larry (funny, yes, momentous and respect-worthy, NO), or Manhunt 2 (which really is just murder-porn, as much as I hate the phrase).
Even NC-17 Movies (Boogie Nights, Striptease) are able to be critically acclaimed, where's the AO equivalent? And both of those movies weren't high-budget mainstream films. Where's the AO equivalent? Game producers need to make something AO and GOOD (even if not mainstream-released), then they can bitch about their 'art' being stifled. Until then, Desi needs to shut up and ride the free press Postal 20x6 will get and make lots of money, or make someting gamers think is worth fighting for.
Really? Have you decided that after looking at all the candidates? What's your opinion of Blimps?
Games/politics wise I agree though, no politicians out of the blue speak in favour/against something no ones asking for/complaining about, as the debate matures on all sides a little sense will shall surely prevail (though that wont help publishers releasing standardised European versions of games censored without announcement {EG: Prince of Persia: Two Thrones & Ninja Gaiden} to get into Germany....)
There are no such AO games because the AO rating stigmatizes developers into leaving out logical chunks of content in games that encorporate adult themes to get a MA rating: find me one MA game where there is a clear and explicit implementation of highly sexual or profane themes when the context of the game warrants such things. I can only think of one such game; perhaps God of War II, which managed to slip past the censors to a certain extent.
Why do we not see more gore, more sex, and more contextualized adult content in enviroments that warrant these themes? Don't tell me there is not a market for such content? Myself, and thousands of other gamers, would jump all over a tasteful AO game that used adult themes to create a sense of depth and gritty realism to a fictional world. I'm sorry, but I have not heard a single valid argument for why ANY aspect of a game should EVER be censored. It is counterproductive and artistically oppressive to subjugate adult content to varying levels of "adultness." The lines that seperate MA/AO are horribly artifical and ridiculous.
@Paul
Postal has a certain amount of artistic value because its sole function is to mock the gaming industry, prompt social outrage, and address themes relevant to gamers in the most absurd, offensive, and disgusting ways concievable. It's almost like a form of radical modern art in a way. It might not contain an engrossing plot or highbrow value, but it is certainly not comparable to the kid-safe, franchised, "omffg anime hero saves teh world fromz eulimtaz evilz" garbage that is the standard in this industry.
I think you two have summed up what I was saying perfectly.
I’ll take criticism from CliffyB when Gears of War 2 comes out, I’ll take it from Koyjima when MGS4 is out… I’ll take it from Ken Levine when Bioshock 2 hits and I’ll take it from David Jones when GTA5 arrives (even though hes not associated with it anymore, you know what I mean).
But from Desi, when his games are frankly, abysmal and part of the problem of the unfair backlash…. I don’t think so!
I agree with this man
Actually I think Postal has pretty much zero artistic value because all it is, is controversial. It can't stand on any actualy merits other than that. Everything about it is juvenile and smacks of a two year old that's screaming to get attention.
The simple fact of the matter is that a story can be mature and deal with deep philosophical themes without the use of vulgarity, sex, and pornographic violence. Using those is easy. Its much harder to tell a story without resorting to those.
As a writer myself I'd like to see more effort put towards telling a mature story without have to resort to shock tactics. Sex, violence and vulgarity do not equate to maturity. Many times they're used to prompt a reaction, and are superflurous to the story being told. Can they be used effectively? The answer is probably yes, but such things have to be approached with the fine care of a craftsman.
Controversy for the sake of controversy helps no one and only serves to injure what is trying to be done.
Maybe if these restrictions were not in place he would be able to make. Desi has valid points, where you have failed to present one.
Everyone else -
Are you missing the basic idea? Its not wise to make an AO game because no one is going to be able to play it. It is only going to be available to a very very small portion of the market. That is unfair. Before the project even gets greenlight it is dead in the water if the target audience is the AO audience.
No one knows how big the AO audience is because its currently restricted. Only for PC and only online distributed. Desi raises very valid points in his statements.
jkdjr25 -
Zero artistic value according to who? You? Are you the kind of guy that rates everythings "artistic value". If so then I have some words of advice for you. You can't rate artistic value. Its either art or is not art. All games, even Pac-Man and Donkey Kong are artistic productions. Even the VT shooter game is art. You can decide if you enjoy that art or not but it is not up to you to decide if it is art or not. Sorry, that isn't how it works.
You shouldn't have to be mature. You should be able to be as graphic, violent, and insane as you want to be. If someone wants to use shock tactics by all means let them do it. If you don't like it then don't buy it.
"Controversy for the sake of controversy helps no one and only serves to injure what is trying to be done."
That statement makes zero sense to me, please justify.
Merchants and Consumers don't always see eye to eye and in my opinion the Consumers are currently getting the short end of the stick. I say the ECA should talk to the EMA and try to get them to at least loosen their restrictions on AO rated games. I'm sure Hal Halpin is still close with the EMA. It shouldn't be too hard.
Actually I can rate something's artistic value, and Postal has zero. You're free to disagree but I still say that its not art. Its controversy, and that's all it is.
What I said was pretty self explanatory but ok. Games like BMX XXX, Postal, Manhunt, etc brought nothing to the table except controversy. In fact that's pretty much the whole point of them. They were made for the express purpose of being in your face about their content and in all their respective cases they set the industry back because people had to defend them instead of focusing on games that actually told a good story and could show the medium in a better light.
Just because a person can do something doesn't mean that they should. Its knowing the difference that helps win people to your side of an argument.
You see, I named 2 movies that suffered limited distribution because of the ratings stigma, but still where somewhat commercially successful and critically acclaimed, or at least had some artistic merits.
I am waiting for the reasons video game producers can't do the same. Limited big-box distribution is no excuse - look to the PC market and online distribution - both of which scares retailers, and would perhaps let them see the sales they are losing.
Why doesn't an edgy, moderately successful game dev (Hi, Vince!) put his money where his mouth is? It's far, far easier to just scream about AO being a soft ban, when really, it's only a ban on rolling in money for another iteration of old ideas.
Look you can debate the artistic merit of Postal, and that's a great discussion to have - Desi isn't having that discussion - we are.
I actually mentioned that in the article bit leading up to the interview. But for the record, I believe it was a 0/5, as Computer Gaming World (now Games for Windows) was on a 5-star rating format at that point.
You can disagree on how artistic it is or not but you can't say it isn't art. (you can't say it has zero artistic value because that would be like saying it isn't art)
Peace, until the ECA gets a new place to discuss game politics.
My point is completely valid. Someone who creates games that are designed to shock and disgust, without any form of depth to the game is not going to get away with criticising gamers for not exercising their right to play the games they want.
Whether people want to play Postal or not, there is absolutely no merit to the games story or narrative, because there isn't one to speak of. The only things we know about the Postal protagonist is that he's been evicted so therefore "goes postal". They were made to do nothing BUT shock. Your job in that game is literally to go around and shoot as many people as you can. There is absolutely no depth, no artistic nor critical merit.
We can't sit here and try and defend all games, if some manufacturers, like Running With Scissors, let the side down by acting immaturely and irresponsibly, perpetuating the issues that politicians have with games by creating games with death and murder for no apparent reason. If you give the death and murder some kind of narrative, purpose, plot, and of course make the damn thing enjoyable to play, its easier to defend. RWS and Postal failed to do any of the things I'd ask.
Desi has no right to be complaining about gamers not standing up for their rights, because Desi is one of the self perpetuating reasons that we have to do it in the first place!!
Terrible Tom has obviously decided to compare Apples with rocks in comparing Postal to Pacman or Donkey Kong.
Try comparing it to its contemporaries. Half Life, Half Life 2, or Gears of War or Resistance: Fall of Man or Bioshock. Comparing games of the last ten years with games that came out in the Early 1980s, before the video game crash in 1984 is one eyed, and shows contempt for the intelligent people who use this site.
Games have grown in the last 30 years have grown from simple platformers and mazes to something far more sophisticated. What you've tried to do there the equivalent of comparing a black and white, silent movie to the latest summer blockbuster.
My statement about controversy for controversy's sake is pretty simple. If you make a game where the primary reason for purchasing it is not a compelling narrative, story, protagonist and excellent gameplay, but because you get to shoot up lots of people then it only serves to harm people's arguments against censorship. If you can't understand or appreciate that statement then you are not appreciating both sides of the argument, which is frankly key to winning any ground in the battle.
I don't believe Desi has a leg to stand on here. He can't complain about censorship when his games have no merit beyond killing. He can't complain that people don't stand up for their rights when it comes to AO games, because even if Desi made a game that was rated AO, it would not have any form of merit to its narrative other than "OK, go out there and kill as many people as possible." His games are irresponsible and cause more harm than good in the wider discussion.
I cannot defend games like Postal in the debate on video game violence. The games are pointless celebrations of mass murders and killing sprees with little plot or narrative to support its game objectives. Even the grandaddy of all, Grand Theft Auto, has deep narratives to the plot. San Andreas had amazing character development. You can play the bad guy, but give him a motive please!
As jkdjr25 said. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. Its about taking corporate responsibility.