Colorado Church Shooter Was Kept Away from Video Games By Parents
Colorado Church Shooter Was Kept Away from Video Games By Parents
December 12, 2007
Matthew Murray, who killed four people and wounded several others during a pair of horrific church shootings over the weekend, apparently wasn't permitted to play video games while growing up.The Denver Post reports:
On another website, a poster named nghtmrchld26, believed by police to be Murray, said he rebelled against an upbringing that forbade him from buying rock music, video games and popular DVDs.
Meanwhile, the All Spin Zone has published a lengthy collection of Murray's online postings:
Growing up, TV, Internet/computers, video games, music, Christian contemporary music, movies and books were all extremely restricted.
Despite that, Murray apparently did play some unspecified video games:
Yeah Diamond girl, when I was a teenager my mother would do a pat down to check for music, DVDs and video games whenever I came out of an electronics store like Best Buy or Circuit City. I’d still obtain things anyways, it was like getting drugs from a drug dealer, EVERYTHING had to be done in secret. lol
I remember getting thrown around the room and hit while getting interrogated about whether or not I had video games and DVDs... I remember having to listen to everything in secret, at very low volume levels or with headphones, whether it was video games, TV, DVDs, or music/radio.
GP: It's always difficult to know whether to even raise this issue in the aftermath of a shooting rampage. However, since the Denver Post gives it a mention, I believe it is appropriate for discussion. And, of course, we know that certain critics will be pushing a video game connection, however tenuous, in any tragedy like this.
In the final analysis, Murray seems like a very depressed, very angry, very disturbed young man who had access to weapons.
UPDATE: All Spin Zone has more online messages posted by Murray. They reveal even more of his deeply troubled life.
Comments
That's a fact Yee, Thompson and the other censors would prefer you to forget.
The most annoying fact is that everyone who claims otherwise knows this, and those that don't are about 4 minutes research from knowing it.
poor kid
I'm looking at YOU, Pandralisk.
-GP
from all the countrys in the world, its amerca who got the highest score.
shame on those wasted youth.
manson talked a bout long ago, yet again no one listen, no one care.
Had people like Yee and Clinton not been busy distracting people from the real problems, we would be further along the road to stopping things like this. I'm not foolish enough to hold Yee responsible for the boys actions, but he is certainly part of the reason he wasn't discovered as a risk until later, everyone was so focussed on 'Ultra Violent Games', that they ignore things like 'Ultra Violent Parents'. And that attitude can be traced back to a few individuals who know exactly who they are.
There's no easy answer to this. His parents did have the right to raise him with whatever rules and restrictions they felt were right. They weren't breaking the law with their rules so, legally, there's no accountability. While they had the right, I'm not sure if it was the right thing to do. It all comes down to common sense and trust.
Other than that. I'm not really sure what needs to be said.
so true in fact.
there are a lot of problems in usa, more important than vg( iraq any body?) not mentiong drugs, prostation, AND most importent gun control.
but no, vg are killing simulation.
pathatic.
Irony.
manson talked a bout long ago, yet again no one listen, no one care.
I remember that line from Bowling for Columbine. Where he said he would have done what no-one else would. Talk to them... and listen.
It sounds like he tried out several religious groups, and didn't fit in to any of them. Each time he was either asked to leave, or found himself distanced from the group. "Personality conflict".
I know it sounds cliche, but it really sounds like this guy needed a friend.
Oh, and just another thing to point out. He was 24...
its also the parents responspilty. after all its there child. they shouldnt be that tough. in fact they should at least give him there point of first, explain it, then give him the chioce.
why making his life so misrable. look at him now.
There was certainly a lack of trust on the part of his parents. That and a good helping of paranoia, but do we really want to qualify what they did as abuse? Like I said, there's no easy answer to this one. All we can do is analyze the facts and try to make heads or tails of it all.
i thought he was19.
dont forget also he did have some friends.
he minton it in his will.
Bowling for Columbine is one importent movie.
people, and politction should,no must have learn from it.
but alas.....
First the Omaha killings, then the Colorado Christian killings, then I hear yesterday 6 people were shot (not fatal thank God) somewhere near Vegas. I'm tellin' ya, every time a loon goes out and does this, other loons learn about it on the tv or other media sources and then they go out and start icing people. They come out of the woodwork.
I recently had a discussion where I said that crime is actually going down for the past 15 years, and with all the 24 hour news, it ONLY SEEMS, that there is an epidemic of this killing stuff. Turns out that these things are few and far between. No country has more guns than the US, yet you don't see genocide every day!
In fact the first 75 years of the 20th century were the most bloody and horrific ever. Nearly 200 million killed in the 2 world wars, various genocides, and Cold War conflicts like Korea and Vietnam.
Guess what? No videogames then.
I rest my case.
I'd like to think I would have listened to Matthew. I've been where he was, well in the context of not fitting in anywhere. I know very well how lonely that can get. Feeling like you don't belong, no matter where you go, can be frustrating beyond measure. This is doubly true when you have parents who refuse to give you an outlet to release the stress feeling like that can cause.
The (mis)users and abusers of tragedies will latch on, either screaming about "pop culture" or even "christianity", but the fact is that this individual's life was filled with, at the least, verbal and mental abuse, and possibly other health issues which didn't improve things. We know that many abuse victims may rebel in small or large ways against their abusers, and sometimes, that rebellion turns to hate on a larger scale and even may lead to violence.
It's true that it sucks to be a kid. Parents do make decisions that a kid doesn't agree with. And sometimes Parents make decisions that other Parents or unrelated individuals don't agree with. The fact is that, apparently, these Parents choose an extremely strict stance, both in raising him socially and otherwise. We can argue that it's the fault of "the Christians" but the fact remains that this was a choice of these specific Parents and that's who I hold responsible for that strict upbringing. Was it "right" or "wrong"? Everyone has their own methods. Was it earned discipline (was he untrustworthy before the discipline) or was it proactive (did they treat him this way from the beginning)? Certainly, it's clear it ended up backfiring because of the path he ended up taking. And that backfiring may have had help from other issues such as health issues.
Did the "pop culture" contribute to the shooting itself? I don't believe so, but then the only person who knows was him. Did it contribute to the "backlash"? It's possible. BUT, I believe the level of strictness was first and left him following a path that would set him at a risk of snapping in some fashion. It is, after all, just as possible that without that "pop culture" influence, that he could have committed the same act but against the "opposition" of his specific "Christian" faith. Does that mean it WOULD happen? Probably not. But he was clearly a powder keg, and his "rebellion" was, in his mind clearly from his writings, against those he felt made life horrible for him and others.
Who was responsible for the shootings? He was. No maker of any of the "pop culture" nor any of those religious individuals (his Parents or the school or others) are responsible for the shootings. There is no foresight that can decide that any exposure to the religion or "pop culture" would lead any individual down any particular path. The choices made by his Parents did lead him down certain paths, but they had no notion of where it would lead. They are responsible for their own actions, not his, like it or not.
Could anything have been done to prevent this tragedy? Certainly no legislation dictating what is or is not appropriate (whether it be a taught religious belief or various "pop culture" products or anything else) for other people's children will prevent such events. Could anything have been done within this specific case with this specific individual? Only speculation can we call on because we cannot view the infinite possiblities of alternatives. Nor do we know ALL the facts regarding this situation. Only someone who wants to abuse the families and community that suffered this tragedy would try to use it to push their agenda(s).
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
where are we?
a clockwork orange?
sigh.....media.
but dont forget. cause and effect.
bad raising, bad fruit.
Point taken about not becoming a religious flame war. But we already know that throughout the internet, it has become so. Religious blogs defending the religious aspect. Posters railing against "Christianity".
Oddly enough, it does bring to mind that Rebecca Walsh story regarding the Utah Mall shooter earlier this year about how people were jumping on the bandwagon blaming "pop culture" or the "Muslim" religion for the shooters reaction. I LOVED that article, but haven't been able to find it since. Though "pop culture" and "Christianity" are playing a more clearer role in this case than similar issues played in the Utah Mall shooting, I think the psychologist(?) in that article may still be on the right track even for this case. Can you dig up that article again? Thanks.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
I agree, everyone knows it boils down to far more than simply media intake, what infuriates me is that no-one in a position to do anything about helping young men like this find someone to talk to, or get some help or counselling, are more interesting in bolstering their careers by making feelgood anti-video game laws. It's disgusting to see the needs of the people outweighed by the ambitions of their representatives.
I hadn't seen that. If it did happen then the parents should be held accountable.
In respect to you (its your blog after all), I will refrain from comment- but I do believe there is a significant religious element to this discussion.
The thing is that we Humans have more options as to what "effect" we'll have further down the road.
An apple rolls off the table... it's only option is to fall and hit the floor. Outside intervention may prevent it, but the apple has no options that it can make for itself.
A Human standing on a precipice (mentally or physically) has unlimited options at their disposal. The individual's life experiences, past emotions, current emotions, even genetic traits, and other factors, may make them FEEL they have limited options, but they actually have many. The "cause" of their being on the precipice does not determine the effect because the individual's effect (the choice they make) really is in their control for the most part.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Its a crying shame that it drove him to this.
And Dennis, I don't see a problem reporting on this, because within hours of similar shootings there are massive land grabs by certain people claiming its the fault of Counter-Strike, every single time...
Unfortunately, like in any religion, there are some that take it far more seriously than others. Imposing it on people, forcing them into corners that they cannot get out of. Its just a tragedy that someones idea of "good" got warped accidentally, leadin to this.
a) The interpretation of the Religion
b) The Parents lack of understanding, they blindly believed everything they were told about the 'evil' of modern media and didn't bother to research for the sake of their son. They were brainwashed by popular 'gossip' about Media and failed to see their own actions were doing far more damage than Media ever could.
Nope, not in the slightest, and that's the most disgusting fact.
For several decades now America has done almost nothing but scapegoat over these tragedies, it has done nothing productive the deal with the problem and so the problem has continued as has the scapegoating.
Basically, these tragedies are going to continue, until government stop trying to find something to blame and actually starts dealing with the real problems.
The truth of the matter is that it's really a question of how the mental health care system has consistently failed at helping young adults, particularly young males. Until we realize that's where the problem truly lies, and not with things like video games, will we actually begin to figure out why this keeps happening. Fortunately it seems that the news media is beginning to wake up to this, as evidenced by their coverage of the Virignia Tech shooting. It looks like they're looking elsewhere for serious answers and not trying to pin it on facile ones like video games like they used to.
Regarding Murray's upbringing, actually I kind kind of understand. I have a friend who was also brought up in an ultra-strict and religous household. She had been through a bad marriage and been forced to move back in with her parents after her divorce. She sufferers from Apsergers syndrome and depression and is currently fighting to get disability as she is unable currently to get and hold a job. Her therapy sessions have been helpful, but not as much as she'd like. It got to the point where she couldn't stand it and she said had she not gotten herself out of there, she would have killed someone or herself. She currently lives in a nice halfway house furnished by the state and she says she's a lot happier there than she was at her parents' home.
With that in mind and based on everything I had read about Murray's life in other news reports, it's easy for me to understand what happened. Clearly he resented the idea of religion being forced on him and he lashed back. This does not excuse what he did by any means, but it helps to make what he did make sense.
that there tells me the problem lies with bad parenting.
also, that they banned contemporary christian music is unexpected, i wonder why?
i'm a bit confused as to where the church fits into this, was the guy/ family Christian?
im never gonna keep video games from my kids
(I will, of course, forgo the rant on Fundamentalists at GP's request.)
If you try and force a worldview on a young (teenaged) person, hiding him/her from things that have no ill effects when coupled with strong parenting, treating DVDs, music, and video games as evil - with no reasoning, just brute force - you will create a person at best ill equipped to deal with adult life, and at worst? Read the headlines.
This individual took it to an extreme. He murdered people. That is no one's fault, but his own. Even if his parents were the worst people on the planet, his actions are his fault. One just has to wonder, would things have been different if they allowed him more freedom and choice. Would things have been different if they put pop-culture in perspective, rather than shut him off from it?
@ Nightwing
I agree with you completely.
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Carl Raschke, a professor of religious studies at the University of Denver, said he believes Murray was "under huge psychological turmoil."
"It seemed like he was involved in his own spiritual battle against the empire of Christianity," adding that one of the screen names, nghtmrchld26, is taken from a video game in which characters battle evil demons.
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Looks like some are already trying. It should also be mentioned that his parents may have referred to him as a 'Nightmare Child', I think possibly there is some grasping at straws to blame media on this occasion.
And yes, there are unavoidable religious elements to this, but I believe Dennis means he doesn't want us to drop the main topic, which is the Colorado shooter, and devolve into a bunch of people insulting or theatening eachother over their religious differences. In other words, stay with the topic, and keep it civilized. That's my interpretation, anyway.
Go back to just about any thread over the past several weeks and look for any of a certain person's screen name (he'll remain nameless) and you're welcome to discuss religion with him there. Like Dennis, most people contributing to this blog are simply sick of that type of discussion.
This is not about religion. It's about two parents who went overboard in trying to control their child, who heaped plenty of mental and (if comments above are true) physical abuse on their child, and are now probably shocked (SHOCKED!) that he would snap and do something horrible like this. Whatever the reasoning of the parents, whether it was religion, video games, whatever, they were wrong to treat their child in this manner.
-P
Growing up, TV, Internet/computers, video games, music, Christian contemporary music, movies and books were all extremely restricted. All those things carried this……mystique about them. They were like these mythical things imbued with incredible power straight from Satan, all run by Satanist covens operating out of Hollywood, Washington D.C.(when Bill Clinton was in office), and abortion clinics. Except there was one problem…………the senior pastor and his close church friends and their families all watched TV/Cable TV, had the internet, listened to at least some non-Christian music and all listened to CCM, video games(including those satanic “T” and “M” rated ones), and all, especially the senior pastor, had “R” Movie collections. Me and some of the other non-elite church youth and members asked about these contradictions but never received any answers.
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You know, with double standards like that, it's not surprising the poor young man was driven to distraction...
The parents treated the child badly, there is no denying that, but without understanding the parents motivation all you are doing is glossing over the situation. It could have been their own bad upbringing, it could have been their personal beliefs, religious or otherwise. Until you look into the parents and their mental health in particular (for treating someone like they did, applying no trust whatsoever to an adult!), you can't rule it out yet nor include it like it is a confirmed fact, which is the difference between most people's thinking here and the JT way.
I'd go mad too, if I weren't allowed to read things like Harry Potter or The Golden Compass*.
*Boo-yah, I went there.
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I can’t think of a time where either a single atheist or group of atheists shot up a church, flew into a building, or shoved people into a gas chamber.
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I don't doubt that it has probably happened in history, but it is an interesting point.
What's really depressing is that there are, without doubt, groups who will now try to paint this young man as an atheist 'plant' in their society, sent purely to do this. We all know it's bull, but I've seen enough of humanities inclination to blame 'things' rather than fix the actual problem to know that it will happen.
How do we even know that his parents did what he claimed they did? I'm waiting until more evidence turns up before passing judgement.
i see now.
each one hold his own responspilty.
how did i miss that?
a fantasic point nightwng2000;)
Hell, I can't see how he even got through school if he was restricted from 4 things out of that list. I know when I was in Middle School and High School - more so High School - every week, and sometimes every day, there was an assignment that required me to use atleast one of the things on that list of restricted items - and yes that does include video games.
Now I could launch into a fundamentalist rant, however, upon request, I will not. I more will take this to the line of what is bound to happen based purely upon the restrictions laid: Rebellion. I mean, hell I know if I was THAT restricted, I would rebel like crazy. I wouldn't kill anyone, but I would still rebel like mad. Such leads me to wonder, who will be the first to tie the parents to this? Hell, in some jurisdictions (see second paragraph regarding schooling and usage of resources), what the parents did could even constitute child abuse.
These are just some of the things I would like to throw out there.
There is nothing wrong with our gun control system in the USA. The only people who think there is are people who've never worked with it, and the anti-gun crowd (and the people the anti-gun crowd has fooled into believing that all police officers are shot with Assault Rifles, those evil, evil tools of carnage).
It's not chrisitianity that's to blame, its the pentacostal lifestyle, which is terrible at socializing their young peole into American society. You can't go to the movies, you can't go to dances, you can't do anything. It's one of those sects that is just crazy when all is said and done, and as I mentioned before, people raised pentacostal have trouble later in life (for the most part).
Of course, it's not only the parents' fault that their kid ended up like this. He was, apparently, thrown out of activities in certain other religious groups because he 'talked to voices in his head' "dont' worry Richard, I won't shoot you... the voices like you" DIRECT FUCKING QUOTE.
This kid was as crazy as a hatter.
@Black Manta
In order for that shift in Paradigm for our Mental Institutes, we'd need to change the politician's views. Which would require not voting in Hitlery, Huckabee, etc., and really, it is more of a wait until the gamer generation gets into the political arena before we'll see a policy shift.
FINALLY, A POLICY SHIFT?
This kid's parents are jokes. They should be held directly accountable for their actions. Too often we lay blame (correctly) at the feet of the individual in these cases, but there is often more the one individual at fault. A part of me wishes for them to be strung up with all those other ignorant, self-righteous imbeciles; but the other part of me knows that would be wrong also. So, I'll settle for something else -- public ridicule.
Too often, I think that people should be made to pass a test of competence and decency before they are allowed to raise even their own children.
X = Green Beans, Turnips, and Dallas Cowboy Football Games.
Since Dennis forbade me from speaking my mind freely, and refuses to acknowledge the evil motivating factor behind this attack, I'll leave you to ponder over what X exactly is. I'm tired of people not taking a firm stand against the perverse X hate that is censoring, destroying, and attacking nearly every right in this country [including games]. This is a fine example of what happens when the autonomy of an individual is suppressed by X.
Keep patting yourselves on your back, wiggling your toes, and thinking that everything is okay. They'll keep chipping away at your freedoms, enforcing X status quos, and inhibiting the progression of the industry.
He was an adult. I know quite a few people who had extremely over-bearing parents, christian and non-christian and they are not murdering other people.
None of you know what really happened in his home. You don't KNOW what manner in which he was treated. What the murderer says may have been true but we just don't know, but you seem anxious to take his word for it. The only person responsible for his actions as an adult was him. It is against the law to murder. He knew this, he diecided to break the law. It's all on him.
How long had he been out of his home? Do you know? Are you truly being rational about this making judgement on these parents you don't truly know anything about?
I knew the Dallas Cowboys were evil, but not THAT evil!
Fuck you guys. The Patriots, there's the evil football devil.
OH
MY
GAWD
I agree with you on something...
"...X = Dallas Cowboy Football Games..."
That's what i'm expecting will happen here...
Austin Lewis am not blaming chrisitianity.
no.
like you said, diffrent sects.
exstreem sects.
as 4 gun control.
think a bout it, gun crimes, including school shotting.
why its so easy to get guns?
am not blaming the police.my dad is in this police;)
I think it is an equal an opposite reaction to the way gamers are generally considered by politicians, who judge us by Media that they know little if anything about. Those of us who post on here have had to deal with ignorance from all kinds of sources, it can be kind of contagious.
I don't agree with blaming the parents, though the contradictions in his life, according to his posts, probably didn't help, but yeah, we shouldn't go claiming that everything this young man says is stone-cold fact without some sort of confirmation, else we sink to the same level of Thompson and others.
You're right, what's wrong in this instance was that he choose to break the law for the law is our only measurement of right and wrong. [/sarcasm]
I agree with you that each individual has to take responsibility for their choices. So what about the responsibility of the parents? It was his own individual choice to walk into those churches and shoot people in cold-blood -- that's his cross to bear. It is his parents' cross for their failure as parents. Instead of bringing a child into an environment of love, support, and decency, they choose to create an environment of oppression and abuse.
"They're all the same! Doesn't anybody see this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!!!!"
"Instead of bringing a child into an environment of love, support, and decency, they choose to create an environment of oppression and abuse. "
is true or not. You read the same story I did. You have condemned them and I have neither condemned or absolved them because, just like you, I don't know all the facts. The one I do know at this point is that he was an adult and he fucking shot and killed people he didn't know.
Because parents are fucking retarded in most cases.
An FBI study including 112 inmates from violent crimes found that 109 out of the 112 had gotten their firearms illegally, often from other members of gangs in exchange for money or drugs or from houses they stole from (because contrary to popular belief, people break in during the day, not at night, so leaving a shotgun under your bed will result in your shotgun being stolen, sawed off, and used in the next break-in).
The main problem with crazy people getting weapons lies in the hands of psychologists/psychiatrists, many of whom never bothered to add the information to their record that they had been in a mental institute and were unfit for gun ownership. In one state (Arizona, I think, but I honestly can't remember) there were only 3 people in the whole state who were restricted from gun ownership because they were instituionalized in a mental care facility, although there were (obviously) many more people put in the loony bin than recorded.
Don't blame gun control, let's place blame where blame is due; with lazy fucking doctors.
Also, goddamn it kid, learn to write a fucking sentence.
"one look? ONE LOOK?"
And someone will still blame video games, not, for instance, that he appears to have been physically and mentally abused.
sidenote:
wow, Pandralisk. you really can't leave it alone, can you? are you going to start calling GP a stooge of the religious right now?
are you going to strike down JT and take his place at the emperor's side now that the hatred fills you?
EZK: This is the type of stuff that Dennis wants to avoid in this discussion. Please don't start it.
"Since Dennis forbade me from speaking my mind freely, and refuses to acknowledge the evil motivating factor behind this attack".
It came from Jack Thompson. It's not entirely your message, it's how you present it. Which is precisely the reason Jack has gotten banned before.
People are always looking to blame something other than the person who pulled the trigger. In fact, the person who pulled the trigger was to blame.
Frankly, i don't see that as the cause.
I think that what is really the cause here is the problem off indoctrination and Parental domination.
Dont get me wrong, parents need to keep certain limits on there kids of course, but the kind of isolation and indoctrination this kid went through would have made me a violent looney as well.
Religons come in an endless supply of varitions practicly. Slapping blame on them just cause the kid was a christian or something seems almost as silly as blaming games.
Anyway, Im sure some nuts will bitch that games were the cause.
We all know thats bs.
Dennis, you should set up some kind of plan to generate revenue from this site, you know, like every time JT fails to cite a source, or every time Pandralisk fails to add to the conversation, you get a nickel. I'm sure there's gotta be someone out there willing to pay those that have to put up with morons.
Dammit.
In the entire article this is what scares the hell out of me. The wording gives me a sensation that this is normal, like a traffic accident or somebody dying in a fire. The it's sad but it happens all the time. I know GP probably didn't intend to give this impression, but nonetheless, it scares me.
It's the whole "you can parent your child, but you can't parent your child's friends" debate that I hate oh so very much.
Pandralisk, remember one thing - It's always the insane man who screams to the world that he's sane and everyone else is crazy. That is how you come across.
Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if they did. The answer to that is of course, 'If the parents had got involved with their child instead of treating them like a robot without feelings or opinions of their own, he wouldn't have had to mislead them, being a good parent doesn't purely mean making sure your child does what you tell them (and, strictly speaking, he didn't even do that). It's about understanding your child and helping your child understand you.'
It's often the second half that is forgotten
Matthew made his choice. He alone is responsible for his actions. However I do think that its important to try and understand the circumstances that made him feel like this was his only recourse. I have a feeling that the lack of trust, compounded with suspected emotional abuse, and several other factors may have contributed to his mental state. Does it excuse what he did? Not at all, but it does help us understand what happened.
Add the fact that the parents may have included mental and physical abuse in the mix (nothing has been confirmed 100% either way), and you really do have a ticking time bomb on your hand.
The kid was sick, weather that came from the way he was raised, or mental instability independent of anything else, is still up in the air. If he was mentally ill in the first place, for any reason, and you tack on the way he was raised, and you've got the spark to set the bomb off.
And what game would that be?
"Another memorable incident occurred at a missionary Christmas party where attendees grouped together and some sang songs in the talent-show atmosphere, Werner said.
"He just went up there to sing, and one of the songs was 'I'm One Step Closer to the Edge,' which really upset people," Werner said.
The Linkin Park song culminates with the anguished phrase "I'm about to break!" "
Could it be that he just happened to like that song? I have that on my Ipod
The game was a game based around the Rock Group 'Kiss', who did the cover version of Argent's 'God gave Rock'N'Roll to you' in the Bill and Ted movie. It's widely considered to be an absolutely awful game.
Also, KISS, Psycho Circus - The Nightmare Child was released in 2000, so even if game legislation HAD been in place, he was 19 at the time.
@G-dog
If your being sarcastic, mmm
If your not, I suggest you look at Soviet fucking Russia under everyones favorite Joseph Stalin. Siberiean Gulag, gas chamber, just another way to die.
@Pandralisk
Thanks for proving my point, if you shove anything down someones throat without giving them a choice, it tends to lead to rebellion, and in extreme cases violence. Go figure, taking away someones ability to choose doesn't end well. Give people a choice even the illusion of choice any you will be surprised at how easy they are to deal with.
Not to mention huge amounts of social isolation don't do anyone good.
I suspect that even more have been persecuted by China's anti-religion laws.
Guess who stopped him from continuing he spree.
Actually, I'm hearing two stories from friends at Colorado Spring (at USAFA)
1. He killed himself in the end.
2. Assam (the woman) did in fact end the man's life.
The thing is, it isn't the guns that are the problem, it is the fact that that people who should never own guns can get hold of them.
Read my earlier post on how that's happening.
Thanks, yeah, that's a BIG problem, things like depression and paranoia don't get 'cured' merely 'controlled' and such things need to be noted on medical records, especially as far as things like Gun Ownership is concerned.
so it can't be the fact that his parents practically censored him from reality or the fact that he was a seriously twisted individual. No, it HAS to be X.
X= Isn't it obvious?
because in all other countries, only law abiding citizens have guns?
Bloody fucking mess right there.
Not to mention how do you determine eligability, is a guy who was depressed in middle school not allowed to own a gun in his twenties? The hard part with that is trying to figure out who sets the rules and who has an agenda when making the rules.
Where did I say that?
What I said was that doctors not filling out forms is a danger, especially in these situations.
You only have to look at the amount of shootings just this year when compared to other countries to realise that something weird is going on, I'm not pretending to know the answer, but bullets come out of guns, and lots of people are dying from bullet wounds, particuarly in the US.
So no, I'm not saying that other countries are perfect, or even better, but taking every observation as an attack on America's rights to bear arms is going to do nothing to address the problem that a lot of these mass-killings are being done with guns, you can't simply bury your head in the sand to the fact there is a problem somewhere simply because it may mean admitting that something is wrong in the way the gun laws are enforced. Burying the problem for this long has already done a great deal of damage.
Exactly, I've never said the average American shouldn't be allowed to own a gun, what I've said is that much stricter controls are needed to make sure that guns aren't obtainable through other means, or are made available because of a failing in another area.
GP: as always, I'm thinking of reporting the facts. And anyway, games are so ubiquitous in modern youth culture, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who hasn't indulged...
I don't think that, in itself, was a factor at all. I think the fact that he was banned from all forms of "evil media" is indicative of parents who are so strict that their kid is bound to get a bit fucked up. If his words can be believed, his parents were also abusive. And the fact that the shootings took place in a church seem to suggest that it was a motivated attack against the religious fanaticism that his parents forced on him.
If you're trying to act like another JT Proxy-ban-evading-alt, don't please.
Which means criminals will actually begin to use REAL MILITARY ASSUALT RIFLES because THATS ALL THEY CAN GET.
Oh and when I say assualt rifle I am speaking of a fully automatic rifle with a large magazines(Typically ones that fire .223 aka 5.56NATO and .308 aka 7.62NATO , not the bolt action rifles with a five round internal magazine that the the Brady campaign has tried to claim are assualt rifles. Oh and not the semi automatic rifles that LOOK like ASSUALT rifles.
So not only will law abiding citizens not have guns, the criminals that have them will be forced to use more and more military weapons because that all they will be able to get their hands on.
You only have to read the report to see that some 'experts' are already trying to angle the whole thing to being caused by video games (The Nightmare Child comment etc), so I don't doubt this would have hit the mainstream at some point, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if Dennis got emailed a link to this story with 'Gamer, obviously' tagged onto it. We all know how Thompson works.
GP: actually, no. I saw the Denver Post mention of games via my daily run of automated Google searches.
More buisness for me! Er.. you weren't supposed to hear that..
but if the majority of gun crimes are due to illegal obtaining of weapons, what do you propose?
making getting a gun harder for a normal person doesn't necessarily make it harder to get illegally.
With those things that obviously mean nothing anyway out of the picture, it's clear to see that ultra-violent video games and movies made this boy a killer. How can anyone even think to blame his fine upstanding parents for something like this?
Of course, diverting some of the money wasted from legislating video games into policing the sale of guns would probably have helped as well ;)
I went to school with a girl who had very very strict parents. She wasn't allowed to go anywhere without an adult, had very specific times she had to be at home, was restricted from listening to certain kinds of music, etc etc.
A good example, at the time I was dating a friend of hers. We ended up hanging out with her and met up at her parents house and went somewhere ( a movie I believe) they dropped us off (freshmen in highschool none of us could drive), afterwards we went across the street to get some food. She called her parents to tell them, and they just laid into her for leaving the theater. Nevermind we were only 10-15 feet away from where they initally dropped us off and immediatly came and picked us up.
Anyways.. on to the actual point of that little story. Once she was out of their house she went crazy with all the freedom she had. Lots of unprotected sex, lots of bad decisions because she had all her decisions made for her, and a few unplanned kids later her life is pretty much screwed up. If you're a parent and don't give your kid some breating room now and again, they're either going to:
1) end up like her and go crazy once they get some room.
2) going to snap and try to take some freedom themselves or just rebel.
Both *usually* will end with bad decisions.
Now, lets fast forward to the 1920's-30's when gang land crime was rampant. It was the heyday of the snub nose .38 revolver, the Thompson sub-machine gun, and the sawed off shotgun. People were being shot on almost a daily basis in Chicago, New York and Boston by gang wars. Many familys were effected by the depression and had much more on their minds that being angsty and wanting to shoot up their school. Children were working to provide money for the family so that they could eat and have heat, and many started full time jobs at 16-17. For them it was more about being able to survive to see their next meal, or not freeze in winter.
Now, onto the '60, also a violence prone period. The civil rights movement was in high swing with marches sit-ins, and other non-violent protests. Meeting these activities was absolute brutality from symbols of authority such as police officers, and the governor of Alabama. The Vietnam war was on the horizon, the red scare in full swing, the fear of the draft, recreation drug use was almost a plague, and tensions were high. Yet the only recorded school shooting took place at the college in Texas with the man who barricaded himself in the tower. However this was also the height of serial killers such as Son of Sam, Zodiac, and the Night Stalker. People were afraid and had way too much to worry about than feeling sorry for their angsty selves.
Now, modern times. You have kids who go to school to learn about to be students, as many high schools either cut out or completely eliminate their Shop programs. Kids are being bombarded with homework and stressed to exceede by parents who let the school do their parenting for them, and generally feel ignored or unloved by their family, as they feel they are being pushed too hard and not shown much graditude for their efforts. Many have no one to talk to in order to release their pent up frustration and stress and end up acting out in a variety of ways. Some join gangs, other take up random graffity of public and private property, but a very rare few are so engulfed in hate, depression and self-pity that random violence seems like the only answer to them.
Perhaps JT should stop scapegoating because he's looking for a fat pay-off, and instead look at the parents for failing their most important job: being a parent.