GP Covers the Ron Paul World of Warcraft March

January 2, 2008 -

GamePolitics was on hand last night for a unique combination of MMORPG and grassroots presidential politics, the Ron Paul march within World of Warcraft.

I arrived at the Alliance city of Ironforge at about 8:10 PM Eastern time, 20 minutes ahead of scheduled jump-off. I was using an avatar named Gamepolitics (what else?), a gnome mage that I created just for this event. I play WoW, but not on the Whisperwind server where the march was being held.

Upon arrival I wandered around IF near the auction house and bank, but didn't see any sign of the Ron Paul crowd. A character named Xionn recognized the GP name and we exchanged greetings.

Still in search of the march, I wandered out the front gates of IF and found a couple of avatars sporting "RP Revolution" guild tags. This must be the place! The bulk of the marchers were assembling on the hilly road leading up to IF. I estimated 200+ characters in line. Many bore names that related to Ron Paul in some way. The organizers seemed to be at the head of the line and were trying to get everyone into single file.

I didn't join the march line for a couple of reasons. First, I've not yet made up my mind about who I'm voting for. Also, I was there to cover the event, not participate in it. So I stood off to the side and followed along as the march jumped off about five minutes behind schedule. That's not bad when dealing with so many event participants.

I took some screenshots as the march proceeded up the hill into IF and paraded around the interior of the city a bit. Next, everyone lined up to board the underground tram to Stormwind. While on the tram to SW I asked a character named Allfree why she (or he) is for Ron Paul. Answer: "I'm a longtime Libertarian and against the war in Iraq."

There was a lengthy queue to get through the tram portal into Stormwind (see pic at left). Once into the city, I followed the march for a bit longer, but then had to bail before they headed for Westfall, their next destination. At that point I felt like I'd gotten the flavor of the event and seen what I needed to see.

Based on what I observed, the march participants were well behaved. I noticed that some members of the RP Revolution guild wore a tabard with a scroll design on it which I believe was intended to represent the U.S. Constitution.

Many non-marchers were not so thrilled about the event, feeling that it detracted from their enjoyment of the game. Many seemed surprised that it was taking place, despite the advance publicity. Complaints were voiced that the march was causing lag. Indeed, the Whisperwind server did seem a bit laggy. There were some calls to ban further political activities on WoW. Some anti-Ron Paul griefers spammed rude messages. A character /spit on a paladin marcher named Ronpaulidan. Someone else threw a snowball at the marchers. None of this was too surprising and it didn't really detract from the march.

While some may have found the Ron Paul event silly, inconsequential or simply annoying, my take is that it was a most unique way to harness the social and political potential of the game space. Such activities have primarily been confined to Second Life up until this point, so it's good to see gamers pushing the envelope in other gaming venues.


Comments

IIRC, the guild organizer was in her 40s.

I know people like to extol the ability to connect socially via gaming, and all that... but this goofy little march of video game characters did nothing to 'harness the social and political potential of the game space.' It was a silly stunt that only managed to attract a couple hundred players out of the millions who play WoW, not to mention the fact that WoW players are not a significant enough chunk of the US population to have any real effect in its upcoming presidential election. Like most articles about video games, this just comes across as sad, not inspiring.

I intended to go to the Rally because I support the idea, however my computer had other ideas. I'm not sure I'd vote for Ron Paul, but as a friend said, "He makes my skin crawl the least,' and I'm a libertarian.

To say that video games have no political agenda only reveals ignorance about media in general. Everything, especially warm media, has a political agenda, whether intended or not. To say that video games are exempt from such agendas is foolhardy. Refer to the work of Ian Bogost in terms of the Persuasive Power of games.

@Slyfox

I feel like you argument as a whole is a Democratic one. "Lets stifle the voices of some because it inconveniences others." In a brutalized form, that is what Democrats stand for. We see that even now with the censorship, attempted video game legislation, etc. The true heart of democracy is organized chaos - anarchy, just not as loud :-).

I'm still stuck on the negativity. This, in truth, didn't do much. But who knows?! Gamers did something that had true societal value, however miniscule. You can't expect for the first foray into this kind of realm to be system-changing. It will be a process, but look at the first step. I may not be an Ally fan (Horde-love), but man - if you have any sense of wanting to be taken seriously -- you have to love them for what they did. The so-called 'Real life' will infiltrate where-ever you try to hide. Nothing is free from political sway, political agenda, or political view points, not even World of Warcraft. To assert anything other than is just be hiding your head in the sand ...

@DP
Actually, I believe that SecondLife is in fact, classified as an MMORPG for lack of a better category for it.

@Dan
I find the article inspiring. I find the idea inspiring. The tone in your post implies that you don't play games, and have no respect for those who do. Why troll then?

Speaking as one who participated, I'm sorry our presence caused queues that disrupted raiding plans. It was incredible fun, offering the excitement that I've only before felt during World Events such as the AQ gates opening. The difference being that guild leaders can schedule around patch days and their associated performance issues, but they couldn't plan for this. I hope all who were disrupted have incredibly good raiding nights with phat lewts to make up for our night of fun.

In the end that's what we wanted to have, fun. It was a chaotic night all-together, and we tried our best to nip any spamming in the bud, and apologize for any Ron Paul supporters who did not respect that aspect of the night. Being part of that many people, enough to stretch from the gates of IF through Koranos, and trying to keep track of instructions and guild chat was just crazy.

While I expected to accomplish nothing more than entertainment, if there was something I would hope it is that someone through researching Ron Paul will learn about Habeas Corpus. I don't necessarily want people to support Dr. Paul as I do, I would just like to have a very heartfelt discussion about how do we best restore the loss of this particular right. It seems scary to me that after what we’ve been through these last seven years, we don’t have a far more serious discussion on how to heal the damage done.

[...] First-hand account of the march (GamePolitics.com) [...]

Could someone tell me a bit what they think about Ron Paul?

I mean, he's definitely the best choice on the Republican side. His ideas on restoring the gold standard and the Iraq war and stuff are great.

But I really can't get past his pro-life anti-evolution stance (which are both incredibly important to me).

"...we don’t have a far more serious discussion on how to heal the damage done."

Easy, use the tried and true method. Blame the guy before you for everything that is wrong, going wrong, isn't going as well as planned, or just because you feel like it.

In all seriousness, that is a valid question. How do we unscrew the pooch? Have any candidates discussed it? More importantly, have any potential presidential candidates discussed it? DK might have this great idea for all I know, but sadly it won't make much difference because he doesn't have a chance, same for RP.

Chances are no serious front-runners have discussed it in great depth as that would be seen as badmouthing the pres, and the war, and be labeled anti-American and unpatriotic.

Vellocet, I feel very similarly to you. I have no party affiliations and this year, feel that Paul is the best of the lot by far.

Although he is pro-life, he seems to want to leave abortion laws up to the individual states. So, there is hope there.

As for his evolution beliefs, I don't agree with them either, but what he personally believes isn't much of my concern. I don't think he's the type to try to force his own beliefs on America as a whole.

Anyone know where I can host around 50 jpg's, at ~350KB a pop, and not have to individually upload them (or at least batches of 5 or so)? I have some screenshots (mostly bad ones) of the event.

@vellocet

His supporters don't seemed to be helping him much.

I'm trying - I just can't seem to scratch up any sympathy here. In the first place I could never quite understand the mentality that X dollars a month, "entitles" the payer to flawless service for that month. It does not. If lag were due to some kind of inaction or incompetence on Blizzard's part, in terms of network maintenance, then maybe they'd have a legitimate complaint. These people who are highlighting that it takes weeks of planning to put a raid together, probably should've, I dunno, rescheduled? It's not like they were keeping the march a secret. Besides, WoW is notorious for being the worst of the worst in terms of clientele. It's a natural by-product of its gargantuan size. It tends to attract a breed of player that, let's face it, you're probably better off not getting to know.

Say what you will about the Ron Paul'ers, at least they were semi-aware of the world around them and chose to support an event that didn't immediately benefit them or amount to an elaborate scheme to gank noobs. Seems to me that speaks of at least some desirable qualities.

I'm not quite thinking of the "read a book" (though it couldn't hurt); Here's the thing. We're in an election year. Unless you wall yourself off in a room somewhere and don't come out until 2K9, the election WILL disrupt your life somehow. Maybe because of signs on the freeway, maybe because of political ads. Maybe telemarketers will call you for ballot issues, maybe just because you live near your polling place and get stuck in traffic. I don't know. Either way, I don't see this being a whole lot different. So the election disrupted your life in WoW, get used to it. It's not like it's much of a realism game anyway, people scream ads on the broadcast channels for pete sake.

Like I said, it's an election year and the iowa caucases are tomorrow. You might as well get used to it.

How long was this march advertised for? If it had been announced several days to a week ahead of time, it seems that any raids scheduled could have been rescheduled to the day before or after. I understand that this is not an easy thing to accomplish between organizing 25+ people and their schedules, not including whatever instance cooldowns you have running or when they are up. But it seems to me that if I knew there was goign to be a large congregation of people on my server and was concerned about the lag, I would have just rescheduled it.

Do people have to pay money for those new accounts? Because that would definitely rack up a large bill.

it was announced weeks ago. but it was a whole what few hours of lag on a maintenance day where there tends to be alot of glitching/server crashes and the like when there is maintenance. Im sure you can get over it but then again I am not surprised that so many are opposed to this interfering with their gaming as so many nowadays are only concerned with themselves and their inconveniences. Someone needs me to slow down so they can merge oh hell no!!! Someone has 11 items in a 10 time or less aisle stop the press!! Ah well, I personally think that it was an inventive way to create support for a candidate and continues to demonstrate how gaming, particularly MMO's are becoming more and more integrated with societal occurrences as well as peoples reaction to them. Anyone remember the Hakkar plague ^_^

@ all those complaining that the protest 'disrupted the game'

Normal rallies and protests disrupt people’s lives, who is to say that they cannot do this in a game as well?
An example usually proves a point so I will give one. When I was at college last election, John Kerry held a rally down the road from my school and cut off half the campus, with his party’s organizers harassing the students as we tried to walk to class. This was not a campus rally; this was not at a public school. This was at a privet university that I pay 30k a year to go to, their rally made me late for my classes, and in turn I missed a quiz showing up more than 15min for classes.

I honestly see no reason to be whining about this causing disruption. I thought this was a great way to socialize with other supporters.

Yes, I play WoW as well. Stormrage server

wow its amazing to see all his supporters grouped in one space

@Serrenity

Now hold it right there. This has absolutley nothing to do with who or which party committed the act, and if you're trying to make it so, then you're simply splitting hairs. It doesn't matter who committed the act but that the act was actually committed, causing usual players from that server to forfeit there plans that are to, believe it or not, be apart of there routine. Last time I checked, political in-game marches weren't a routine occurrence, nor was it commonplace for vast groups of people to just converge on a single server. This isn't like Halo 3 where the more people the better because there are more people to form matches with; it's more like the more people there are, the more regular server users have to wait and contend with the lag issues caused. And, yes, raiders can certainly re-schedule their plans, but when the party is 45 or more, it becomes exceedingly difficult to accommodate everyone involved.

That said, I wouldn't mind so much if they tryed this in something like Halo 3; at least there one's displeasure can be voiced with the mighty sniper bullet or smack to the head, which would prove profitable to the shooter/beater in the form of award medals.

[...] Zeitgeist: Huck’s A Dumbass, Among Other Observations Jump to Comments Here we are. A day away from the most overblown, over-hyped gathering of Midwesterners in thehistory of democracy. Where do we stand? Hell if I know. Edwards is campaigning to the point of near-exhaustion of both hair and body, Clinton is handing snow shovels to folks who could be snowed in, Ron Paul has the World of Warcraft voter group in the palm of his hand, and the Huckster is in L.A.; giddier than his former corpulent self in an Arkansas Waffle House. Mmmm…pecan waffle… [...]

@Weatherlight

Did you enjoy missing that quiz because you were being harrassed? I'm sorry but it almost seems as thought you're saying, "Oh well, it disrupts real life so why should someone's free time be any different?" Sounds alot like Pirates 2: "Life is cruel. Why should the afterlife be any different?"

Actually quite a few infernals were summoned, good thing the march had a few level 70 helpers =)

Overall it was fun, even with 3 BSODs LOL

Oh, if any of you knew Kath from Antonidas, or Flamyras from Coilfang, say hi please. I miss that game... *sniff

Why am I unsurprised that it would be Alliance players doing this?

*Impressed whistle*

Very funny. Very funny, indeed.

Personally, I think it is cool that RP supporters are taking to teh nets and ghamez to rally. Very creative, and meaningful. The rally certainly did that, it rallied the supporters, haters and griefers. Mission Accomplished.

If you had a bad experience and it ruined your evening, well, you might be a little too wound up over a game. But, the WoW players of the world seem to take their game more seriously than other gamers. I've played the game and understand why, though. It can be very consuming if you have the time to play it and like collecting things (all social aspects aside).

I sat back and read most of the posts here, and aside from being stunned that BlackIce hates me because I'm a republican, I find it hilarious to think what someone that never played a game would think about this conversation. It would be like reading another language; one you can read, but can't understand.

Priceless.

Long live teh ghamez!

Now off to hate on some 10 year olds as they hand me my ass in Halo 3...

I wish Paul's avatar (if he was even there) would be eaten by a dragon. Why? Because he is batshit crazy.

This is why I will never play MMORPGs. Azeroth is Azeroth and Earth is Earth, and ne'er the twain should meet.

otherPeople = suspensionOfDisbelief--

@Slyfox
Pretty much, you know what the professor said to me when I told him why I was late? Tough luck. Stuff like this interferes not just with peoples free time but also their lives everyday activities. That why I gave my example. Because a disruption in a days events (or your game) for something like this is a fact of life, get over it.

What a gathering of poor pathetic louts campaigning for a walking skeleton of a politician. The only thing intresting about Ron Paul is how gay he sounds when he speaks.

WoW is a scourge upon gaming..

@slyfox

why is the right of the Ron Paulers to play the game as they see fit any less then the right of the other players of the game?

basically they paid their money into the game as well, if they want to spend the time they have doing a march, let them

granted this causes a lot of lag, and perhaps the people who normally play on that server have a right to be upset, but the Ron Paulers have just as much right to be on the server playing the game how they see fit as everyone else does

I think of it just like AM's toll road situation. But that is exactly why I don't have anything against this. Like in a toll, people pay to use wow. If thousands of people pay to use a toll to get to a political rally, they have every right to, even if it slows traffic, and makes you late. Besides, if Blizzard doesn't want to place some sort of limit on the amount of people playing in a certain spot at one time, it's Blizzards fault, more so than everyone who paid to use the toll.

Kinda makes me wonder how many were two boxers, or four boxers? How many were trial accounts?

I think they should try two other marches. One on a PvP server, through contested teritory. Let's see if there are enough supporters to keep them alive. And another of level 40 and up supporters. You can hold that one on multiple servers simultaneously. Just all the level 40 and up RP supporters get together in one place on each server.

To put it one way, these kinds of things are usually for one purpose, to try and say "Look how many there are of us, we aren't crackpots!" However, usually when you need to go to great lengths to do so, it usually means there aren't many of you... and that you are crackpots.

Also, not anything about there policies, but is anyone else reminded of Ross Perot supporters trying to inflate their numbers to appear viable?

Dan,

You are correct. The first attempt as using a popular game space for a political rally wasn't earth-shattering. So? It's the idea that important, and for the first of it's kind - a success.

Now, to all the "Can't you re-schedule your raid crowd" - Sure you can, if you know about this, but this was hardly publicized. I frequent several WoW related sites -and only found this via GP (not suprising, being the only dediated game/politics site out there in the ether). So again, if this had been my home server, I would have been upset. Now, there isn't much I can do about it - the rally broke no rules (except Spam in the chat, but typically Blizz only chat bans folks as a first recourse.) The lag and queque are part of the game, albeit the least favorites of most folks. It's akin to being late for work because some pro/anti crowd blocked traffic. You can hope the cops arrest them for blocking traffic, but you are still late.

I wouldn't expect this to be a huge movent that propels RP into the Presidency. But to say, this won't help him win so why bother? That is what is exactly wrong with US politics. You DO NOT HAVE TO VOTE FOR THE WINNING CANDIDATE! You vote for who you think will be the best leader. Period. It's not a horse race, it's not an anyone but him/her race. The Republicrats and Demicans just love it when we all think that way, because it keeps the power in the family, so to speak.

~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~

@ The1Jeffy

Unexpected delays should always be in your plans no matter if it is real life or game life. If you make an appointment in real life, you should make sure to have a back up plan incase there is an over turned semi on the road.

The same with game life. If you make plas to do a raid on a certain night, you need to take into account the possible hold ups. For one, Tuesday night was New Years day and a lot more people would be off work and able to play WoW. So there you have one possible hold up. Another is what if the server went down unexpectedly.

To say that you cannot reschedule is the same as as saying, "we did not plan well enough." It is just as easy to plan an alternative day as it is to plan the first day.

[...] When I first read those words in 1996, they seemed hyperbolic, true in intent, but not in reality. The Ron Paul rally on Whisperwind’s World of Warcraft seems to indicate something more. The independent world of Cyberspace began with news groups, Fidonet, and independent BBS’s. Now we have online forums, chat rooms, communities, and entire worlds the likes of which the average D.C. politician has never dreamed. We have barely begun to feel the effects of the Internet on world politics. I don’t think even William Gibson could predict quite where this will end. [...]

@EZK

They can reschedule their raid. It is just a headache and a frustration to do, as I am sure anyone who has tried to get 25 people to turn up at the same time and place can tell you. Just like if you were heading somewhere and there was an overturned semi... most would not be "Oh well, time to go to plan B." In all likelihood it would be "Stupid trucker, can't even drive, damn my date is going to be pissed that I am late."

However, around this time of year, a lot of raids are hard to come by. Holidays play hell with raiders. Lose one or two important people, no raid. With New Year's Eve, there was one night of raiding out of seven gone. This RP disruption makes two of seven. Most serious guilds raid 4-5 nights a week. You just took two off days and lumped them next to each other. Not to mention that school is starting back up for the kiddies, so anyone in school is out, no more late night raids for some guilds.

EZK,

I still don't see how you can take the next step and say that getting upset about ruined plans is not a normal, warranted reaction. IRL, I have recourse about a protest blocking traffic - the police, alternate route, etc. In the game, the 'Report Spam' function stopped functioning shortly after the march, and their is not alternate route into WoW. Regulars to Whisperwind have every bit of a reason to be upset, but the march idea doesn't break any rules - only individual spammers did that. By and large, I support this type of event, but your callous dismissal of any reason to be upset about it is kind of close minded, or at least uninformed. Basically, if it were my home server, I'd have been pissed, sent a round of txt messages/emails apologizing to my guildies, and done something else. But I won't pretend there's no reason to get pissed.

But I think your point is how you deal with it, correct? And on that point I agree, a WoW-head would do well to "Read a book" instead of play occasionally. Or as I am doing, watching Bullitt (Steve McQueen Rocks!) with my wife tonite, instead of grinding my way to lvl 55 with my warlock (her armory page is down, otherwise I'd link it). (My wife's never seen that movie, and the car chase is arguably the best in cinema history)

~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~

Ron who?

Well I will back down. I have never played WoW or any MMORPG for that matter (except Dungeon Runners, but only by myself). So I am really unqualified to comment.

I do think that a sideline view is important to have in such a discussion. That is afterall what we are fighting against. If we do not have the view of the outside person looking in, how can we have the full picture?

Many of the politicians that rant about how evil games are have never played them. If they refuse to play, you can never change their perception of games.

I may play WoW if I had the time and finaces to do so. But unfortunately I don't. I manage to get 1-2 hours of gaming in each week if I am lucky. I don't think that is the level of commitment needed to invest so much money into an MMO.

The same thing goes for TV. I only watch a hand full of shows and all are on Network television. So there is no incentive for me to invest in Cable or Satelite.

But I am going off topic. My point is that I will yield, but I am willing to listen and change. So if anyone wants to buy me WoW and pay for the first six months subscription to let me test the waters feel free. ;)

I can relate to laggy servers and although some may have been upset I think that Ron Paul needs to be heard and anyone that isn't in the know regarding his ethics, high integrity and values, his views on our present situation and what is really going on in the USA today should google Ron Paul or youtube him and find out more. While you're at it look in to the "Federal Reserve" and see what they are up to.

Folks, I can't express how important our freedoms are as I'm sure you all know. They have been whittled away slowly but surely and now it seems as the end of the line for this country. Google "North American Union" or the "Amero". Ron Paul is our ONLY hope. Thanks for your time.

AxxE

@ EZK,

If you roll a Holy (Healing specc'd) Priest, and follow me around in battlegrounds and such, I would consider it :) Maybe a resto shaman instead ... holy pally? Man, the choices!

Anyway, we are saving for a dp on a house, so the extra $15 a month in my savings can add up. Sorry, no deal :P

~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~

[...] File under "That'll wrap it up for Ron Paul" Seems in his March To Irrelevency, ol' Ron is going after the highly coveted World Of Warcraft vote. How he will tap this new resource and use it to catapult himself into the White House is not known, since WoW players never leave their parents basements. This may involve a change in the absentee ballot laws. GamePolitics.com

[...] GP Covers the Ron Paul World of Warcraft March [...]

No snake trap bug abuse? I was certain some 70 hunters would have a go at it.

@ Dennis:

"While some may have found the Ron Paul event silly, inconsequential or simply annoying, my take is that it was a most unique way to harness the social and political potential of the game space. Such activities have primarily been confined to Second Life up until this point, so it’s good to see gamers pushing the envelope in other gaming venues."

I see where you're coming from, but...to what end? All the SL attempts at garnering the "young gamer vote" or promoting a candidate's "technological awareness" have met with laughable results at best. Do you truly believe that this has had any positive impact on the [potential] voter base? That anyone is going to vote for, or even listen more openly, to Ron Paul?

Seems to me that if anything a few WoWers who probably didn't care one way or the other are now going to go out of their way to vote for someone else, or possibly even badmouth Ron Paul ("that jackass got a bunch of people to lag my server!").

Is there political potential in gamespace? Certainly, and I know I don't need to remind anyone on THIS site of that fact. But has any candidate managed to properly harness, or even show proper understanding of, that potential? I don't believe so. Not as of yet, anyway.

@ Lumi

Interesting point with the possible negative aspect of this. While yes, they got the word out that Ron Paul exists, they annoyed a number of people. Lag on that server, be it New Years or not (my server was perfect on New Years on a Full Pop, no queue, doesn't make it the norm though) the lag will be attributed to the Ron Paul rally.

Weatherlight's analogy is probably a good one for reference. By missing that quiz, was he more or less likely to support the candidate that caused his delay? Are all those people who had to wait in a long queue, had raids canceled, lagged, crashed, or anything else because of the sudden influx of players be more or less likely to like Ron Paul?

[...] Source: GP covers the Ron Paul World of Warcraft march News | Mahmood Ali | | Share this via: [...]

I'd like to see a breakdown on how many people asserting the rally's right to cause lag for everyone else are also Ron Paul supporters. It seems like a particularly libretarian argument.

I don't really care for Paul, because he doesn't have his head on straight when it comes to womens' rights, and if he can't do right by my half of the population, then he doesn't deserve my vote. That's just the power of the free market at work. ;)

@Frogger
I have to laugh at womens rights issue with Ron Paul, he says its none of the federal governments business to have made the ruling in Roe vs Wade, not arguing one way or the other. This idea of his that the Federal government has no business in domestic issues is one thing I can agree with him on. There are a number of cases that I agree and disagree with the federal governments decisions. But ultimately its none of the federal governments business.

Now the irony for me is that republicans are the one saying no to federal programs, while democrats are all proposing more federal programs.

I have yet to hear a good argument that Ron Paul is not for women's rights. Please provide me with a decent argument and provide a logical reason.

He is reasonable when explaining his pro-life stance. He doesn't think the federal government should fund abortions and he doesn't think it should be up to the federal government to say what each state can or can not do in terms of abortion. Currently under federal law its 100% legal to abort a 8 month old child. Do you think that is acceptable? If you don't agree with late term abortions then technically you don't support Roe v Wade.
 
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MaskedPixelanteThe more I hear about AC Unity being rushed out, the more I think Ubisoft was telling the truth about why they couldn't add female co-op models.11/23/2014 - 1:14pm
IanCI wouldnt say the 360/PS3 version were superior. They were different games.11/23/2014 - 11:49am
MechaTama31It's hard to rank my top 5 against eachother, but they would include Ghostbusters, Back to the Future (all of it), Monty Python and the Holy Grail, The Shawshank Redemption, and The Princess Bride.11/23/2014 - 11:09am
Andrew EisenTrue, but I liked the fact that rather than do a crappy looking version of the PS3/360 version, it went with an art style more suited to the Wii's strengths.11/23/2014 - 12:26am
Wonderkarpif I had the money, I'd buy one of those expensive proton pack replicas11/22/2014 - 11:25pm
 

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