Utah Case: Are Violent Video Games Probable Cause for Arrest?

Utah Case: Are Violent Video Games Probable Cause for Arrest?

January 4, 2008
Kiddus Chane Yohannes played violent video games and owned some guns.

Those facts, coupled with comments Yohannes allegedly made about killing people, were enough to get him arrested by police in Orem, Utah. As reported by the Deseret News, however, a judge dismissed most of the counts against the 20-year-old Ethiopian man, a student at Utah Valley State College.

Police had charged him with using false identification numbers to purchase the guns, but Judge Gary Stott determined that the facts of the case did not support the charge. A count for possessing a stolen ATM card was held for trial.

Yohannes' attorney, Richard Gale, commented:
In our zeal to be protected from other people, we can't start arresting people and charging them with crimes they haven't committed yet, which we suspect they're going to commit in the future.

Prosecutor Donna Kelly told the newspaper:
The police began very concerned about [Yohannes] when the roommates were saying ... that he was hiding weapons and that he was playing violent games and discussing that he was going to kill people. Those were the things that caused the police to look a little harder into how he obtained the weapons.

Yohannes' attorney credited the police with trying to do the right thing:
[Yohannes] had a roommate that was scared and told the police. I think (police) had good intentions, they want to make sure that a school shooting doesn't happen here, but they went about it in the wrong way by trying to look for a criminal charge instead of getting him into counseling. I know people don't like to hear that, they want law enforcement to stop these kinds of shootings before they happen — (but) we cannot stop people for doing things that we think they're going to do in the future.

GP: The threats allegedly made by Yohannes aren't described in the news article, although we can assume they were detailed enough to legitimately concern not only the roommate but the Orem P.D. as well. Coupled with Yohannes' gun ownership, it's hard to fault the police for at least looking into the matter.

What is troubling about the case, however, is that Yohannes' violent video game playing was apparently included as an element of probable cause in the investigation. Guns, threats and video games are what got him arrested. It's not clear what games Yohannes played, but a follow-up article in the Deseret News reports that:
[Yohannes was] playing video games depicting violence to U.S. soldiers and police officers.

That description suits a number of commercially available games issued by major game publishers, including the Grand Theft Auto series, 25 to Life (which was quite controversial in Utah) and Battlefield 2.

We should note that police in Utah were probably on high alert at the time of Yohannes' arrest. Yohannes was a student and his arrest took place within two months of Virginia Tech. As GamePolitics readers know, video games were incorrectly suggested as a causal factor in that massacre.

And just a few months earlier, another young immigrant, Sulejman Talovic, killed several people in a shooting rampage at a mall in Salt Lake City. Police investigators found no evidence that Talovic played violent games in that case, although the possibility was suggested and even discussed by Utah legislators while the investigation was underway.

So, going forward, does this mean that playing Halo 3 or Manhunt 2 makes one more likely to face police inquiries? Should one's choice of games be given consideration by authorities in criminal investigations?

Comments

We have the opposite over here. They know you're going to do the shit you're going to do, they let you do it, THEN they arrest you.

Of course, everytime it happens, you know it could have been prevented.

Both systems are full of shit.
the Orem PD seem to have forgotten to add one more reason they arrested him in their Probable Cause: he's black.
It seems a little strange, out of the things that scared his roommate, which ones would scare you the most?

"that he was hiding weapons and that he was playing violent games and discussing that he was going to kill people."

Now I don't mind people playing violent games. I play them myself and many of my friends do as well. I don't mind darker forms of entertainment, I have friends who listen to black metal, enjoy horror films, I myself enjoy horror and crime novels. If one of my friends started hiding weapons and talking about killing people, then I think I might be a little concerned.

Playing violent games on their own is not a problem. The only reason it is considered as a factor in this case is because it is in conjunction with the other genuinely disturbing and scary factors.
"So, going forward, does this mean that playing Halo 3 or Manhunt 2 makes one more likely to face police inquiries? Should one’s choice of games be given consideration by authorities in criminal investigations? "

No more than the Police should investigate what religion a person follows when they commit a crime, especially abuse and hate crimes. "OMG! They attacked a homosexual! Search their house for Christian texts! We must 'protect the children' from Christians!'".

What?

I can't find that Rebecca Walsh piece on Talovic. Remember, while a certain individual emailed her claiming that Talovic must have been a gamer, a lot of folks on blogs and such were blaming the Muslim connection. I mean, I could go on a rant doing the "Christianity made them do it!" pretty easy.

Let's face it, you could blame ANYTHING given the agenda and motivation.

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
This, apparently, was an old issue:

June 29, 2007
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,680194916,00.html

Sept. 21, 2007
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695211872,00.html

Oct. 19, 2007
http://deseretnews.com/article/content/mobile/0,5223,695219947,00.html

And then of course the one that this article references was published yesterday.

Nightwng2000
NW2K Software

GP: His arrest took place in June. Apparently the video game issue just was mentioned in the recent articles.
Something doesn't seem right about this to me.
Yeah, that's it. The guy's a nut. But then, I don't think wanting to kill authority figures is a Mental Illness..

I don't have the slightest clue what i'm talking about..

Off Topic: Does engagement stop you from sleeping? I've had about 5-6 hours in the past three days.
Nice short answer here. No.

Longer answer: How does anyone feel they have the power to tell others what is and isn't acceptable leisure time? Are we going to start arresting people who go to shooting ranges, or watching hunting on TV, or how about those people that play paintball, or point their fingers and go bang? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? If Minority Report did anything, it should have shown us that convicting people of future crimes is nothing but a recipe for trouble.
T
George Bush is what happened to "innocent until proven guilty".

If someone could get rid of that Random "T". It was a typo.
"Should one’s choice of games be given consideration by authorities in criminal investigations?"

Yes indeed. Just like any other form of violent media, or hate speech. How people spend their free time is part of their psychological profile, which is at the core of any criminal investigation.

Off-topic:"If Minority Report did anything, it should have shown us that convicting people of future crimes is nothing but a recipe for trouble"

Minority Report's ending's "moral" was ridiculous. In the movie, it is clearly stated that their pre-cog system caused the murder rate to drop to ZERO in two years. That sounds like a working system to me.
out of all of the mass murderers in the last 20 years, how many have they actually proven played violent video games? if anything, it could be suggested that not playing any video games at all could be considered as big of a 'red/yellow flag' as playing violent games.

off-topic: if i remember correctly, wasnt there some fatal flaw with the pre-cog system in that movie?
This sounds like something Germany would do.
As soon as 'full VR' or some 'direct sense stimulation' goes live, the focus of all self-righteous morons who don't have a clue about the things they're criticizing will shift from 'simple' videogames.

Videotapes and TV had to go through this sea of crap, now it's games' turn.
@DrkMatter
If we killed every human in the world that would also cause the murder rate to drop to zero two years after it was completed. The question is, does the end justify the mean... I for one say it doesn't.
On the one hand, I have to say Bravo to the police for actually attempting to do some preventative work.

On the other hand, I'm very happy the judge dismissed this crap - video games don't make people violent.
Between Cho, Talvoic, and Yohannes, I'm a little surprised that I haven't seen anyone take the "IMMIGRANTS COME TO THIS COUNTRY TO KILL PEOPLE" stance.
@Waffles

That's because you don't have a BNP equivilant.
@Marksman: BNP?
I think the forums are down..
So I guess that means you need to buy Halo 3 "off the grid". Pay in cash, buy it out of your own state. Where an overcoat and sunglasses. Buy shoes three sizes too big and wear lots of socks. Have a fake ID made up. Use a rental car. Wear gloves.

And for heavens sakes, use an 360 that isn't connected to the internet, wipe out the HDD when you are done, then burn the 360 and the disc and scatter the ashes somewhere where they can't be connected to you.

If you are thinking about playing Grand Theft Auto IV, just turn yourself into the police now. There won't be to hide and you could never run fast enough to get away.

If you are even considering on playing Manhunt 2... seek psychiatric help. No, seriously.
I'm sure they do have an equivelant Blackice.....



Well this kinda sucks, we thought it was just the nutcase alarmists who thought games made killers now its bleeding through to th police, next stop discrimination against gamers........



I doubt its the case, but since theres no detail on the 'killing' talk, one could venture a guess to say it could be the old case of gametalk overheard by the unknowing. "when i get home, I'm so going to grab my mac ten and mow down those counter terrorist b*stards"

far fetched but possible.
If any other forum of questionable media can be "Probable Cause" then video games can be as well, if media can be used (books,music,films,ect,ect) I hope it is not used alone.
This seems similar to the high school student who was arrested for making Counterstrike maps. However, I doubt it will get so bad that you will have to register your game console with the government.
@Zerodash

We all have to vote Democrat to stop that happening. Unless Hillary's the candidate. Then we all have to vote 3rd party.
Would it have been as frightening if, instead of playing violent video games, he was reading The Warriors, The Outsiders, A Clockwork Orange or The Basketball Diaries? Does that too make for "probable cause"?
Well, as we are all more than aware, violent media is, in all fairness, considered a 'flag' of possible issues, be it books, films or video games, possibly coupled with the other evidence the Police felt there was enough reason to be concerned. However, I'm a little perturbed about how everything violent is being vaguely linked to 'Terrorism' recently (Violence to Police Officers and US Troops? Would they have ignored it if he'd been shooting Taliban then? Called it 'healthy patriotism' perhaps?).

I would say that out of Death Threats, Possession of Firearms and Possession of Violent Video Games, the third option would most certainly be the least cause for concern, but when mixed with the other two, he does meet the FBI Profile to a fair degree, consumption of violent media, creation of violent media (the threats) and a growing fascination with the tools used to kill, however, authorities should be very careful to realise that those guidelines are just that, guidelines, not rules. I think they did the right thing by checking it out, but it is something that needs to be approached cautiously and sensibly.
silly concept. If they are that concerned they need to give him a psychiatrist to evaluate him. The fact that he says he's going to kill someone and owns guns is the worrisome factor, not that he plays video games. The videogames probably let him get a fix or something that prevents him from attempting such a crime.
"Should one’s choice of games be given consideration by authorities in criminal investigations?"

No more or less than movies, books, music, etc, if you ask me. If those others are given consideration, then by all means. If not, drop the double standard. You pricks.
It's not okay to arrest someone if they say "I'm going to shoot up the mall."

Now, if they say something along the lines of, "I'm going to shoot up [certain store here] at [certain mall here] at [date and time here]" then there might be probable cause to arrest them. If the plan is written down, then that would make a stronger case.
Zero Beat Says:

January 4th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
It’s not okay to arrest someone if they say “I’m going to shoot up the mall.”

Depends on the situation. You walk up to a cop in a mall and say "I'm going to shoot up the mall" and see if you get arrested.
Hurm.

I'm a bit torn here, because if he was making detailed, legitimate death threats, then I don't think there was any wrong done in his arrest. In this day and age when we have nutcases who want to kill people for every reason under the sun, it's not good to throw caution to the wind.

That said, the kind of games the man plays really shouldn't be a probable cause here. I play games where you kill cops sometimes. Saints Row is in my X-Box right now. And occasionally I'll play as the Nazis and, yeah, shoot at American soldiers in WW2 games. That doesn't mean I have anything less than the utmost respect for real life cops and real life soldiers. The idea that games can be made into probable cause is a slippery slope, pardon the cliche.
OH come on the police arrested he because he was caught with a white women
@drkmatter

you weren't paying much attention to the movie then. It clearly stated that a lot of innocent people were being arrested with the real murderers.
@drkmatter

also most games are aimed at the mainstream (so that they sell well) and considering that the best selling games are often violent (Halo and GTA come to mind) how would that possibly make a psychological profile?
I hate to pull a pandylesk here, but if the playing of violent video games can be used to build a profile, then the studying of violent religions should be used as well.

I for one think that people who act of their faith are more dangerous than people who play violent themed games.
Should he have been arested?
Probably, suspicion of illegaly obtaining weapons, threats of violence, having someone elses stolen ATM card.

Should video games be considered as part of a psychological profile?
Sure. Any thing he does could be part of a psychological profile. What he ate for dinner could be part of it.

Should playing a video game be counted as PROBABLE CAUSE?!?
Absolutely NOT! I think he just asked the wrong question at the end of the article. It shouldn't be a matter of "given consideration", it should be a matter of "probable cause". A lot of you were answering if it should be "given consideration," which is what he asked.

But now I ask you. Should what kind of game you play be "probable cause"? "The standard by which a police officer has the right to make an arrest, conduct a personal or property search or obtain a warrant."

This would mean that playing a violent video game would give the police the right to search your apartment and/or arrest you.
Threats of violence against the law? Check.
Possessing a stolem ATM card against the law? Check.
Playing Counter Strike against the law? I think not!
I'll first say..

THOUGHT-CRIME!!!

This is profiling in disguise. First we had racial and religious profiling after the paranoia caused by 9/11 and now it's come down to people's hobbies. Some of his acts (like thinking about killing people) do seem questionable, but we cannot put any charges on that alone. Just like the way we allow the KKK run their little Klan meetings in private, they're not technically doing anything illegal until they decide to act upon their racist tendencies.
This sounds a lot like what H.R 1955 and Senate Bill 1959 is proposing. It is a bill addressing. "Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007"

They are both the same bill, the H R 1955 passed and now it is in the senate as Senate Bill 1959 and is awaiting being voted on. But basically, yea. This is what could happen because of it.
Lets rememeber the difference between violent games and other violent media is that in games, violence is part of the challenging gameplay, its the medium through which most games create the experience. Its like books and prose. in toher media such as films and literature its not the generally accepted method, so a considerably violent book or films is more unusual than a considerably violent game.


So if anything, games should be at the bottom of the list of violent media, not the top.
So, he was playing a game which depicts violence against police officers and was allegedly "making threats against police officers?" I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that he was making threats against the virtual police officers in the game. E.G. playing GTA or something and shouting at the screen in frustration over a poorly designed mission. Or perhaps discussing said game with a roommate.

But then, seeing as those charges were dropped, maybe that's not such a stretch..

That said, being that the probable cause was hardly probable, and the whole thing sounds like a fishing expedition, his lawyer should be trying to suppress the evidence in the charge of stealing an ATM card too.
"DeusPayne Says:

January 4th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Nice short answer here. No.

Longer answer: How does anyone feel they have the power to tell others what is and isn’t acceptable leisure time? Are we going to start arresting people who go to shooting ranges, or watching hunting on TV, or how about those people that play paintball, or point their fingers and go bang?"


oh damn if they do that i am so screwed,guilty of all of those cept the last one

as for cops being anti gamers...well i guess thats mildly believable since their constatly getting gunned down in the more popular series.
cough gta cough
(meaning i can see why they'd have a personal vendetta against us, legit reason? no)

seriously though which = scarier playing violent games, or hording guns and talking about going on rampages.
Everyone knows that if video games didn't excist, we'd be living in world peace. (sarcasm)
[...] Source: Utah Case: Are Violent Video Games Probable Cause for Arrest? Bookmark it: [...]
"In our zeal to be protected from other people, we can’t start arresting people and charging them with crimes they haven’t committed yet, which we suspect they’re going to commit in the future."

Does this remind anyone of Minority Report?
Him playing violent videogames was part of the reason he was arrested, so I guess that practically makes me a criminal... (Halo 2, Resident Evil 4, Mortal Kombat Armaggedon, Resident Evil 2 for PS1, Resident Evil 2 for N64)

It's a good thing he wasn't Gothic, Emo, listening to Heavy Metal, or "wearing" a tattoo; if he was then people would publicly cry for his arrest.
Although, for the record, I can't play Resident Evil 2 because I don't have a PS1 or N64.
[...] January 4, 2008 at 8:52 pm (Utah, courts, crime) GamePolitics.com: Utah Case: Are Violent Video Games Probable Cause for Arrest? [...]
While Ethiopia is a predominately Christian nation, I am curious as to if this person was Muslim and whether or not that factored into this. Is this an American citizen or someone on a student visa?
Oh my god I know plenty of people that live near a college play games and have guns....

Should I call the defence department now? cause I think my friends are about to start slaughtering orcs..... or anyone that trys to break into their apartments, who ever they get to first....

seriously though, I am glad the cops got him for having illegally purchased guns, stealing credit cards and threatening to kill people... as for games I really don't see how that factors into it.....
The games probably don't factor much into it. There are a lot of people at my college that like to act "gangster" and they say they're going to kill/beat/rape people blah blah blah I'm so hard get ready for some hot fiar [sic] yadda yadda, which is ok because those people are stupid. However, I would be really concerned if someone was hiding guns. I live in South Dakota so people keep guns in their cars but that is usually for hunting. It's really nothing out of the ordinary. But if they were hiding these guns, and they weren't your standard .22 or Remington 12 guage, then I as well as any other reasonable person would raise some red flags.
Hmmmmm, WOW! Battlefield 2 being lumped with GTA and 25-2L!? Theres a new one!

Cue the Jackass in three

two

one.....
Another copmment:

"Utah Case: Are Violent Video Games Probable Cause for Arrest?"

Simple answer, no! Kthxbaifukwad
Anonymous Guy

The "Minority Report" stuff has been going on for a while now. In my town, they track recent gang activity as reported by the cops. While people in the crime center plot out recent crimes and shootings, they try to predict the next "hot spot" for gang conflicts and distribute the cops on the beats accordingly.
You know, don't police use the kind of books a person is reading as probable cause?
Is this going to be like that Tom Cruise movie?
What a joke.
We already have thought police..
If dude was playing Super Mario Galaxy or something not as violent he wouldnt of got arrested. Thats like going out and arresting someone because they listen to Marilyn Manson or something.
VIDEO GAMES DO NOT ENCOURAGE VIOLENCE. IF YOU DISAGREE IN ANY WAY CONTACT ME AT : figsnake12@googlemail.co.uk

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