February 5, 2008
The question comes up from time to time: Should prisoners be allowed access to video games?A member of the British Parliament and a taxpayer watchdog group say no, and have weighed in against the use of Nintendo's Wii system by foreign detainees held in a U.K. prison.
As reported by the Telegraph, detainees awaiting deportation at Colnbrook Immigration Removal Centre in Berkshire play Wii and watch large-screen TV sets. The newspaper quotes an anonymous source:
Some detainees have Nintendo Wiis. If the consoles go wrong staff are sent to the nearest Argos to pick up a replacement... Many law-abiding people wouldn’t be able to afford the same perks.
Conservative MP Damian Green (left), the U.K.'s shadow immigration minister, said:
Detention centres should be civilised and humane, but not luxurious.
Mark Wallace, a spokesman for watchdog group the Taxpayers’ Alliance, was more vociferous on the issue:
It’s a disgrace. Taxpayers are funding a lavish lifestyle for people who should not even be in this country.
Comments
And if, as you say, the said criminal puts in an 8-hour shift working wood or some such, for 6 months straight (with no pay, of course), shouldn't that person be given a couple hours of play time? Perhaps other criminals in similar situations could sit down and play a round of Madden or something? I'm for using video games as a part of the reward/punishment system for attempted rehabilitation. However, non-educational media (of any type) should be reserved for inmates with no issues, and not for the general prison populace.
And I think I need to further clarify that I agree with keeping play-time out of the maximum security hell-holes for repeat offenders or several-term lifers - (or IMHO) those who have repeatedly proven they have no place on this blue marble. I'm making a distinction between the rehabilitate-able and non-rehabilitate-able.
/agree
Thomas,
That's a very naive attitude, and one coming from someone who likely has never been to a prison, or at least talked to a social worker. What do we do, lock away every criminal forever for a single crime, no matter what?
Notice I said there's a difference between inmates that can be rehabilitated, and those who can't. And this is totally the individual inmate's choice. Each inmate can choose to function as a human being or stay locked up.
Heres a thought, how about trying to make prisons places to rehabilite people rather than simply punish so that we aren't funding a lifetime of imprisonment? I know.. scary ideas...
Also, keeping detainees complacent and avoiding hostility is a bad thing?
One solution is to segregate out the "caught with their fingers in the cookie jar" criminals from "smoking gun" (needed to investigate to identify a criminal) from the "circumstantial evidence" criminals.
Once that is done, you can take a far stricter stance with the first group, even go as far as serving their sentence in solitary confinement.
The third group is the most likely to end up with innocent individuals being incarcerated for crimes they didn't commit. Those you have to be more careful with.
Truth is, for some individuals, no matter how much entertainment or distraction they have, it's just a stall for a possible inevitable conflict. Keeping prisoners "occupied" isn't necessarily prevent conflict in every case. It just may delay it.
Nightwng2000
NW2K software
Had this been about regular prisoners, then it'd be different. Though, I guess since I'm geolibertarian I'm kinda biased to give illegal immigrants a break.
Besides taking away the detainees' Wiis isn't inhumane treatment or punishment. It's simply depriving them of luxuries. Reasonable and just IMO.
As for the criminal prisoner thing, I don't think they deserve any kind of gaming. They should have a large library of fiction and trade books. They should have radios and the only TV they should be able to have (if any) is over the air network television. Why should we be footing the cable/satelite bill for people who should be rehabilitating?
Prison needs to be changed from a place for criminals to wait before commiting their next crime, to a place where they are taught trades that will prevent them from continuing a life of crime.
And in most cases they can't even get into a trade program, are out in the yard leaving madder and better connected,and then are back in a couple months or less.
Of course, if we are talking things provided by the government, I'd tend to agree with EZK... give them cheaper stuff, but still give them stuff.. bad enough we must cage people who's only crime is wanting to live in a more prosperous, more secure, less tyrannical nation up. Don't force them to live like they killed someone.
Of course, prisons are a different thing all together.. I personally believe they should consist of single cells, with two buckets, and a flat bunk. No TV, no Radio, no fiction, the only things available should be educational programs or work done to help pay for their incarceration, they should have nothing at all of their own and no money for things such as smokes, infact no access to such luxury. Food should also consist of the most basic forms of nutrition.
I should have added, if these guys own their Wii's, of course they need someone to take it down to the local store if they are broken... because they cannot go themselves! If they do not own their Wii's, regardless of the debate as to if they should have such recent hardware or not, of course someone has to go down to get them replaced because they are property of the center, and they need to keep it in good repair.
In the case of the article, it's hard to say - why fund buying Wii's for people who are waiting deportation? How is that a part of rehabilitation? I'm inclined to say providing media is fine, but the Wii is stil hard to get - why not hit EB (or similar) any buy up some used older generation systems to keep the detainees busy?
Why should criminals get anything?
By criminals here I mean thieves, drug dealers, muggers, murderers, whatever... people who harm others in one way or other.
Why should they get any luxury, they do not need any reward, their sentence and everything they do is a punishment for doing something there was no reason to do in the first place. There are only two justified reasons for stealing or harming another person, and that is that you or your loved ones will starve or die if you do not. I would hope (although I suppose it is possible it is not always the case) that the criminal justice system would already take that into account before sending them to prison.
Other than that, there is no reason for them to have committed a crime which gives me any reason to wish to be lenient with them.. every criminal, from the most petty to the most harsh, should experience their time in prison as a place where they will not want to go back too.. not due to physical abuse from other prisoners, that should not be tolerated, but due to complete lack of contact with the outside world, and complete lack of anything other than staring at four walls unless they show a desire to better themselves (via educational programs).
They committed a crime. They were caught with their "hand in the cookie jar".
"Hey, sneak back into the country later and we can have a rematch!'
Nope, sorry, can't support it.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
I guess, if you put it that way, a little incentive for rehabilitation would be nice. Let them read fiction, get access to an hour of premium television, or maybe some gaming time.
But it should not be freely avbailable, nor should it be the best of the best.
I simply hate the "human rights" idiots who believe that all criminals should be living the life in a five star hotel equivalent. "Wah! Our murderers and rapists are having to share a shower! Wah! Their cable was cut due to budget constraints. Wah!" These types of people drive me nuts.
I still think that prison should be a place for rehabilitation. There does need to be some consideration for repeat offenders. If they refuse to rehabilitate, then they should be moved to seperate facilities than those who will.
I submit that someone trying to build a better life for their family shouldn't be subjected to the same treatments as someone trying to steal a wallet just because their crimes are both relatively minor. As I said, I sympathise with illegal immigrants. I don't think borders should exist to keep out people that are looking for a better life. Borders were created to keep national sovereignty and protect people from forced assimilation.
But, I'll be honest. I'm a dick and am pretty hard headed on this opinion so arguments won't really sway me even if you prove me horribly wrong to the point that even Jimi Hendrix himself would tell me to relent.
Certainly those that arrive illegally do make life harder for those that don't, and there are policies in the UK that cause some degree of anger among the locals. The UK hasn't really got a clue about discrimination and makes things up as it goes along ('positive' discrimination, for example, is a pet hate of mine).
As for the Nintendo Wii's, it depends who's paying, if the government is paying, then no, I certainly don't agree, I have to go without luxuries because the government takes tax from my wages, my purchases and my bills, I'm certainly not happy with the idea of that tax money being used to pay for those very luxuries for people who haven't paid a penny in taxes to the same government. Give them acceptable lifestyle and a chance to start afresh, certainly, but give them presents? How on Earth does that present a message that your life is what make of it? It more clearly says 'do nothing and get free shit!'.
"there being deported. there technically not doing anything wrong, trying to get a better life for their famlies. so they got caught, and are in prison for doing something almost any one would do for their family. so tecnially they didn’t do anything wrong. here’s a way to solve the whole immigration issue- IMPROVE CONDITIONS IN THE COUNTRY THE IMMAGARNTS ARE COMMING FROM! if conditions are better there, immagrants wont leave their native country. simple as that"
yeah but.. can say the uk for instance really be expected to improve the conditions of every country immigrants come from.. shouldnt those countries themselves do that?
How do we afford to pay tax to improve every european country + our own... not that easy
and yeah you may see it as not doing anything wrong (and morally i agree with you to an extent) but LEGALLY they clearly are doing something wrong.
And we as taxpayers pay for the nintendo wii and tvs they have whilst they wait for deportation
When every person in this country paying taxes can afford a tv and Wii, then fine give them one, but untill then our taxes should be used on the people who raise them. not on criminals (they HAVE commited an ILLEGAL act)
I often fail to see why the UK's immigration system is so often attacked when, in actuality, it is one of the more lenient systems in Europe, if you go to France or Spain, for example, do NOT expect handouts, or even support, That's what makes the UK so attractive in the first place.
That doesn't remove the fact that I committed a crime.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Same case here, if someone comes into the country and works illegally, it doesn't 'directly' affect anyone, I'll admit, but what about the wider picture, same as software piracy, no direct victims, thousands of secondary victims, including their own countrymen who are using the legal immigration system, because not only does it remove opportunities for them, it also earns them a reputation that even now they have to struggle to remove, there's still a nasty habit of assuming all immigrants are 'illegal immigrants', which is wrong and dangerous, and that reputation has been bought about by the amount of people who smuggle themselves into the country.
There's no reason in the world why a man should not try to make life the best he can for his family, but so are the people who came here through the legal system, why should one person deserve a 'leg-up' when others have to go through the system, it's not fair on either the UK residents or legal immigrants, who are also trying to make the best of their lives.
Fangamer
Illegal immigrants are typically people who don't have the requirements for the sort of visas to go into these other countries. People without college educations and some without even full secondary schooling. They can't work in their target country because they can't get the work visa. They can't save up and go to school because they can't get a good paying job there. Legal immigration, or even getting a work visa isn't as easy as it seems. It can take years just to get a reply at times. Meanwhile, their children are aging and dropping out of school to help keep the family alive.
Other times, they are coming from countries in turmoil. Places where on the wrong day your village can be ransacked and your children kidnapped, as with a number of African and South American nations. Personally, if I knew that there was a chance my daughter would be forced into prostitution or my son forced into a militia, I wouldn't be waiting around to find out how to apply for a visa.
If an illegal undocumented worker receives income, but doesn't pay taxes, does that mean there is no victim?
Would that, then, be the same for a legally documented citizen who commits tax evasion?
If a homeless individual, or even someone living in extreme poverty (and for whatever legitimate reason, cannot "makes ends meet"), goes to a grocery store and steals some food and gets away with it, but is discovered later, is it a crime? Who's been hurt?
Justification is a great word to dance around, but in the end, it means one person may get away with a crime while another may not.
Ever see the movie "John Q"? It's a fictional movie, and John took responsibility in the end. But should he have? One person will say no. Another will say throw in prison for the rest of his natural life. And let's not forget if certain other organizations and individuals had gotten involved from the real world.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
I do understand your concerns, I used to work with a teenager who had watched his own parents shot for supporting a religion in a country that didn't like that sort of thing, and the Home Office were trying to send him back, where he would almost certainly meet the same fate. So yes, the immigration system needs a lot of work if it is to truly help these people, but 'jumping the queue' causes problems at many other levels, the system is complex and difficult enough, and every time there is a problem with illegal immigration, the governments response, for some unknown reason is to tighten the legal immigration laws, which makes no sense whatsoever, however, I still think that the answer is not simply 'breaking in' to a country, it not only means that they are often treated as little more than slaves by many employers, but also gives fuel to the tabloid fire that really needs to be doused.
Since you can change your avatar in Wii Sports, it's obvious that it's a teledildonic gangrape simulator!
Ok seriously, what would you rather they be doing? You leave them all standing around bored and someone is going to start something. This isn't prison, this is a holding area until they get sent back to another country... then to prison. It isn't the purpose of this area to either rehabilitate or to punish, mearly to hold. And if you can hold someone quietly for $250, I think that just is the best bargin out there.
Second, these are not violent or even serious offenders. Giving them a bit of fun while they wait for the bureaucratic wheels to turn keeps it that way.
Third, I think this article inadvertently hits on another topic, a high Wii failure rate that seems to go unreported. A lot has been made of the Xbox failure rate, yet my Wii has broken twice in a year, despite being played an hour a week or so. The Xbox, that sees a vast majority of my console gameplay time, has been replaced once since launch day.
I'm aware my opinion on criminals in prison sounds naive, however do not take me for someone who does not know what I am talking about. I have spoken to many social workers in my life, although I have little tolerance for them.. they all thought they know best how to raise me rather than letting my parents do it.. however, more importantly, I have known many criminals and all the reasons they gave for doing what they did, I was in the same situation or worse.. I do not view crime as black and white, but I understand there are grey areas, but a VAST majority of criminals do it purely for greed.
Crime for Greed = ANY crime that is not to protect someone's well being or to get BASIC requirements of life (water, simple food) for you and your family. Someone getting mugged so you beat up the mugger? Good, chances are they deserve it. Slipped through the cracks of welfare and starving on the street, by all means go into that supermarket and pick up a can of their overpriced shitty food so you don't starve to death.. but only if you cannot find a soup kitchen or the like.
My views on immigrants are totally different, as I believe that migration of people is just about required for human society to prosper. Also, I grew up in an area with alot of menial labor being done by illegal immigrants. I knew alot of farmers who employed them for a very simple reason... peolpe from our "developed nations" won't do the hard work for virtually no pay that is required to make a profit for the farmers, infact the government often forces them to pay employees so much that they end up making a loss.. because nobody will buy their product at the price they would need to make a profit. So many people have got into their heads that they are "too good" for simple jobs like picking fields or being on a fishing boat. Its also a truth that most of these people work far harder at such jobs than anyone legally in the country, because they have no choice.. they work hard, don't complain about conditions, take whatever wage is paid them and are grateful because their expectations are lower.
Yes, they should have entered the country legally, however.. that is easier said than done. I recently went from the UK to Australia to get married... so far the process has taken 3 years, during which I have been unable to work due to Visa restrictions, and cost me upwards of $5000, not including travel costs or all the other costs incurred during those 3 years. I was lucky to be in a situation where my wife and I could afford this, many illegal immigrants who are attempting to get out of crippling poverty or abusive situations, simply do not have the kind of funds required for this available. Even worse, is that these costs and limitations are not required, due to costs incurred by the government during the process.. instead they are essentially a TEST to make sure you are serious... a $5000, 3 year forced unemployment test.
If you want to commit a serious enough crime to get sent to prison... and then HOPE that you might get a chance to play on a Wii. Go ahead. I'd like to see how that ends.
How is a prison with dozens/hundreds of prisoners and a few Wiis lavish?
I keep hearing these arguments about how people in prisons are treated too well. It's a load of rubbish. Are we neanderthals or something? Do we need to turn prison-time into a form of torture?
YES. It's true. There are people inside prison who are better off than people on the outside. But rather than whinge about all the "perks" that people are getting on the inside -- how about we make things better for those people on the outside? A little bit of public welfare wouldn't exactly turn the whole country communist.