"In paintball, “if you screw up, you get hit, you get hurt. It stings, and you’re out there and you’re in reality,” he said. But Halo has made good fodder even for military training because it teaches recruits how to kill without hesitating—and without side-effects."

Right because the military has needlers, Megaton Hammers, Stickys, and Bubble Shields. *Facepalm

@ Joe

I have no qualms with restricting game content to kids. I just think adults should be allowed to play whatever the hell they want.

.... /sigh.

1 Corinthians 6:12

“All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be enslaved by anything.

Things not expressly forbidden in the Bible are allowed, but they may not be healthy. That said, video games are a form of entertainment, and I find it absolutely hilarious that this is even an issue, as a Christian with very strong conservative views on the Bible.

Al Meniconi...oy. I got into quite a few debates with a follower of his on the old Nintendo fourms...the guy seems to be like a cult leader after talking to him. His website is also good for a laugh.

Hm... the lack of hate here is refreshing after so many Jack attacks.

As far as religious trailblazing goes, I see good points on either side. It's good to learn about pop culture and try to derive positive experiences from it, but Lyle Dorsett is right within his own context too. I think it ultimately depends on the person being addressed because different people have different needs. Sure, using Halo 3 may not work for everyone, but that doesn't mean its potential shouldn't be experimented with.

It's hardly as violent as people make it out to be after all. A shame Al Menconi reveals his ignorance on that field and his comment seems to be yet another one of those that is trying to proclaim Halo 3 to be completely evil rather than just erring on the side of caution. It's fair to be cautious around new and unfamiliar things, but one should not be quick to go so far as to judge them with no knowledge.

>_>

because we all know there's no violence whatsoever in the Bible.

"I wouldn’t do it because I think the games are constant killing. There is no redeeming factor. It’s just the adrenaline rush of killing."

Umm, no. Way to show your ignorance.

Amusing the way they don't understand that the fun bit in multiplayer is in thinking, aiming and knowing better that your opponent. And if you don't, it's in learning how to out think him next time.

Not about killing. Exept if the guy is a dick of course. Or a squeaker.

Me fails at teh internet.

The first paragraph in my above post is the quote. The second paragraph is my comment.

How many unquote tags does it take to negate one quote tag? Jesus.

I just got back from church and I must say what they did to Jesus befor crucifying him game me more of an adrenaline rush than any video game with killing involved ever will.......

"...I think the games are constant killing." Well, you thought wrong, dumbass. My favorite part of HALO is the story, the "violence" is just an add on. Also, the Bible trumps pretty much everything in terms of "violence". Oh, and don't go saying "Oh, well the Bible doesn't have pictures, so it's not as bad!"It's still very discriptive of all the nastiness to the point where it becomes pretty sadistic. And of course, now we do have paintings, courtesy of the Rennoisance artists.( If that sounded at all like I was criticizing the religion, I apologize. I only wanted to criticize Al Meniconi.)

My God, whats next? Attacking Team Fortress 2 because it "appeals to kids with its cartoony look?" Therse people need to have a reality check, and fast =/

I am a Christian gamer, and I think these people are not Christians, and if they are, they're giving us a bad name. Not all Christians are this stupid. Besides, one of the best things in the Bible is to NOT JUDGE PEOPLE! Saying that it's wrong to be playing Halo in churches is being judgemental!

I'm Catholic . Honestly I can't see halo as anything more than a tool to teach teamwork and better hand-eye coordination ( lock sensitivity 9 ) The story of Halo was good, but could have been far better ie: Hitting the Gravemind with the spartan lazer a couple of time's.
I think a great game to reach out to kids would be Burnout Paradise, teaching you the joys of Driving, burning out, and just joy riding. The idea should be how can everyone have fun and learn at the same time without being condescending and hypocritical. I can't stand the anti-game catholic's, they have no-argument.

But that's just me though.

BANE XXIII
Minneapolis, Mn

My cousin does like a youth counciling thing at his church (he's a born again)... his favorite game is golf on the wii...

I don;t see the conflict or issue here, why dose the church have to hate and loath non approved fiction by some hate mongering watch group?

I think it might be reaching a bit. If they were actually trying to make John-117 a Biblical reference, might they not have picked a reference that would actually be applicable? John 1:17 has no parallels with Halo.

I guess you could make the argument that Revelation 1:17 or 11:7 do, but that's still pretty broad.

"I really believe that I can validate scripturally that that’s not right."

I'd actually like to see him follow through with that.

And I hate it when all these uber-religious types give Christians a bad name. It's like they're TRYING to ruin it for everyone else.

JESUS CHRIST! I just don't understand all the outcry. Maybe it's because I'm not religious.

Wow. What a phenominal piece of non-news.

@Monkeyface:

“[Of course,] If the Old Testament were a video game, it would make Halo 3 blush.”

But its okay because the Old Testament isn't a videogame, its The Bible... and why should The Bible have to follow the same guidlines as some dumb kid's toy anyway?

@ Ty,

Hey, Bible Adventures was kind of cool, you have to admire the courage of the guys doing it without NoA putting the stamp on the game. Of course they still sucked more ass than the average zoofecaphiliac but then it goes in the realm of B-movies and laughing at the horrendous... everything in fact.

Halo3Guy;Sorry,when I wrote the comment I was intending to refer to the Jack Chick style Baptists and not Baptists in general.By the way, Rapture can be used as a verb?

What is it about faith that messes up some people's heads & turns them into nutjobs?

Hehe now that I think of it, its probably the same thing that makes some people messed up & psychotic when they play a game, read a certain book or whan someone looks at them in a perculiar way.

The uninformed or willfully ignorant with even minor power pose a serious danger though...

BY the way not be rude to religions, but I think I know why the church doesn't make any great stands against video games...

Priests should all be screaming they're heads off trying to explain that children and adults can't distinguish between games and reality...

After all they have a wonderful example that has been used for thousands of years in convincing children and adults that some words they read in a book are real...

Oh god, I hope scientologists don't make a video game...

I don't like when church's recruit or anything like that. Especially with videogames, since most are unsuitable for recruiting purposes. I don't think it's fitting with what the church is doing.

Halo, either a whole bunch of religious symbolism, or they were just begging for people read into it just to mess with them.

Lets look at some major plot elements.

Halo
Ark
Flood
Covenant
John 117
Grave mind sez "I am a monument to all your sins"
The number 7, and thats actually seen repeatedly in other bungie games too.
Great journey
The flood as an act of cleansing the proud and arrogant forerunners.
Theres more but im not in the mood to look them up.


It was intentional, the symbolism was there and it was heavy.

@shady8x

Oh come on man, I think you're underestimating the wonders of file compression and animation repetition. Torture & murder can't be entirely unique, they won't need more than a few thousand murder/torture animations and they can surely recycle level geometry, after all one church is much like another. Also there's 1 terabyte hard drives out now.

Scientologists don't really need to make a game, they've got that episode of south park to help recruiting, after all its what scientologists actually believe...

i c whut u did thar

Goatse doesn't kneel in church

http://goatse.cx

To quote Stewie Griffen,
" I do so love this God fellow. He's so deliciously eeevil."

Halo had an unusually deep storyline for an FPS. Sure, it was a little too grand for some tastes, but to take it to the level of some deep religious message...?

It'll work for some, but I think that's what theological books and self-reflections are for.

If the church was looking for a way to stay contemporary, they should try something else - following the Halo 3 bandwagon will only make them look like some out-of-date parent that's "trying" to look hip in front of their kids. It's painful to watch, and it only makes them look like they're grasping at straws.

@Deus Payne

"Stupid people believe stupid things."

Do you know much about the background of the Halo/Marathon stories that Bungie writes? They like to borrow rather heavily from things like prophecies, religions, etc.

So yes, tying the Master Chief to a messianic figure was most likely done on purpose by the programmers. To spread Christianity? Unlikely. But definitely done on purpose.

We are all products of our environment. Many JRPGs incorporate salient Eastern themes into their games (Gaia, etc.) while many Western games draw from Western religion (Diablo, etc.). Halo is no different. It's no more an evangelizing tool than The Matrix is, but it certainly draws from religious motifs.

If Christians want to use said themes as a tool for evangelism, that's certainly their first amendment right. If non-Christians aren't interested and would rather have their games with beer and cussing, that's their first amendment right, too. It's a free country.

That all said, while GamePolitics is generally solid, I'm not sure this is really a good candidate for a post. It is only tangentally related to the Fox debacle and is more the domain of the philosphy of religion and its relationship to entertainment rather than pure politics. Last I checked, this was GamePolitics, not GamePhilosophy.

I'm not real impressed with many of the comments thus far, either -- alternating between cynical gamers who can't manage anything more intelligent than "Christians suck" and well-meaning Christians who can't spell is sort of depressing. You would hope that by now we could actually think about these things rather than play the flamebait game.

I feel that even though I am not religious, I know that there are a few Christians who are also gamers themselves.

And to say that Videogames are all about killing is just put ignorance, almost a stupid as saying that Pokemon is the work of Satan all because of the Pokemon evolution thing...

Seriously, videogames are just games, and they are fun...

They are not meant to be serious and even if they are just fantasy like Halo, it does not mean they have no redeeming qualities...

If you are able to sit down and play a game, no matter what game it might be, RPGs, Platformers, Shooters, Fighters, Sports, Racing, Raising pets, Life Simulations, Puzzles, Strategy warfare, they are all just fun games...

Why criticize Videogames if you have not even played them, that is just like criticising the Bible all because you have not read it.

If I was to go onto the news and says that the Bible promotes evil without even reading it, all the priests in the world would be up in anger, but yet some of those priests are doing the same thing to Videogames, and it just makes me shake my head and wonder what they will be like if one of us gamers decide to give them a taste of their own medicine...

Like I might have said before, doing your Research IS important,

From what I see here, this guy did do his research to demonstrate why Halo 3 was good for young Christians....

---
“We’re not advocating that everybody goes out and buys (Halo), but we’re saying that you’ve got to be aware.”

Halo in particular has an intricate plot that most outsiders don’t know. Its first installment began an epic story of human soldiers trying to destroy an outer-space outpost called “Halo,” which turns out to be a weapon capable of destroying all life in the galaxy. The Halo is guarded by a mysterious alien race called the Covenant, and the aliens regard the Halo as a religious artifact. The star player is Master Chief, the last of a line of genetically enhanced Spartan warriors, who is humanity’s last best hope for survival.

Halo 2 continues the story (multiple Halo installations are found to exist throughout the galaxy) as the aliens deploy to fight the soldiers. In Halo 3, the aliens try to activate the space weapons and later unleash monster-like creatures that may annihilate the entire galaxy. Although the end-game to the Halo story remains unclear, players find out in Halo’s third installment that Master Chief’s true name is John-117.

A crucial selling-point is that players can use Xbox Live multiplayer modes to play the game over the Internet with anyone worldwide. Using handles like BlueFlappers or x2k1dynastyx, they ride around on warthogs or pelicans and shoot each other and alien zombies with everything from pistols and assault rifles to carbines and brute shots.

Game mode options include capture-the-flag challenges, traditional shoot-out battles and full-fledged strategic campaigns. Characters in the game sometimes use mild profanity, and player names sometimes border on vulgarity.

The game has some religious thematic elements, namely the good-versus-evil plot and the role of Master Chief. That’s why some say it can be a valuable tool in relating to non-Christians.

“The person in that role in Halo 3 is kind of a messianic figure. … That is an opportunity to talk about” Christianity, Stier said. “Personally, I don’t think that was an accident. I think that was some programmer who was trying to make a point.”

---

Very similar situation to some of the Church fun activities that I had been apart of.
They do a fun activity for the kids and the Christian youth, they also add in a few religious references to relate to the bible, and it is a fun day for those involved, even if some are not really religious, it does not matter.

Kinda like a Christian Rock consert,

and there is no harm in that.

@TBoneTony
"If I was to go onto the news and says that the Bible promotes evil without even reading it, all the priests in the world would be up in anger, but yet some of those priests are doing the same thing to Videogames, and it just makes me shake my head and wonder what they will be like if one of us gamers decide to give them a taste of their own medicine…"

Why would you need to read the Bible to know that it promotes evil???

It is much simpler and more useful to read some history books... if you are reading about christianity then watch out for the blood spilling out of the pages... seriously it is almost un-readable...

I think the Bible itself actually has good lessons in it and is an interesting read, but if you look at what the bible has been used for, then my opinion changes to un-controlable screams of horror...

[...] readers will likely recall last October’s controversy over whether Halo 3 and other violent games were appropriate material for church youth groups. The issue eventually reached a ridiculouswith a staged Fox News trashing of video games. With the Easter season underway, the issue has now been revisited by The Baptist Standard. read more | diggstory [...]

"You’re torn. Youth leaders are torn. You want to reach kids, but you don’t want to compromise biblically. [Of course,] If the Old Testament were a video game, it would make Halo 3 blush."

Yeah it would make Halo blush alright... and it would get the kiss of death rating (AO) mainly because the old testament was a rediculously brutal peice of literature. Can you imagine the size of the content warning?

"Contains material descriptive and/or advocating suicide, incest, bestiality, sadomasochism, sexual activity in a violent context, murder, morbid violence, use of drugs and/or alchohol, homosexuality, voyeurism, revenge, indermining authority figures, lawlessness, and human rights violations and atrocities."

Now forgive me but hasn't every single one of these labels been lumped into videogames at some point or another? Maybe the holier then thou folks should clean up their reading material or be forced to put a content rating or warning on it.

Heh today's shaping up to be a fun one already... Happy St. Patrick's Day!

@Zerodash

Honestly, I'm tired of the Bible-thumping fundamentalist "moral superiority" that a lot of people claiming to be Christians constantly rant and rave about. It is revolting, and does very little to promote Christianity, and does everything to make people opposed to it.

Seriously... Christianity is not about following some strict set of rules. It is not about being morally superior or right. It isn't even about living a good life or other such nonsense. It also most definitely is not about shoving tho0se ethics and morals down other peoples' throats at every turn screaming things about "going to Hell" or other such condemnation. Another fun verse I keep in mind is Romans 2:1:

Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.

Honestly, the so-called "Christians" who push their supposedly superior ethics and morality seem to fail to remember that basic little detail. Following the rules does not save anyone. Another good passage about this is Romans 3:20-24:

For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Following some moral superiority, or ethical set of values (or laws) does nothing but shows failures to do that. It doesn't save anyone. Christianity is about the simple truth: by faith through Jesus, we're saved. He did it all for us, because we simply could not do it ourselves. It is a very foreign concept to people, our very natures suggest we have to be able to do something to help ourselves, but Christianity is about the understanding that we can't -- and that we don't have to, it all is already done for us. Christians shouldn't be thumping people with Biblical laws and telling them what they can or can't do -- it isn't our place. Instead, Christians should be overjoyed with the security and knowledge that we're saved, and the desire to help guide others toward that as well (but once again, not force, just guide).

Is it just me or does the john 11:7 sound a bit like "Once more unto the breach"? Thats a bit more halo than the other.

"Once more unto the breach dear friends once more, or close the wall up with our UNSC dead!"

From what I've seen over the years, I think the biggest problem is that people can't accept that what works for them may not work for someone else and react as if that fact were an attack on them. Personally I think any religious position (atheism included) is a waste of time & effort that could be put towards something that might make the world better. I know that some people are attached to it though and unless they accost me to talk about it, I don't make an issue of things. Then again I take exception when anyone tries to communicate with me when I'm not in the mood, I'm both introverted and antisocial.

Al Menconi said a game was occultic because it talked about dark matter. case closed.