April 23, 2008
With the Grand Theft Auto IV launch less than a week away, the expected wave of anti-GTA publicity continues with an alert issued by watchdog group the Parents Television Council.According to PTC president Tim Winter:
Since the first version was released in 1997, the Grand Theft Auto series has lowered the bar for appalling video game content...
In past versions, players could re-enact having sex with a prostitute, beating her bloody, taking her money and running her over with a car; shooting at police officers; and, by using a code easily accessible on many internet sites, having a realistic sexual encounter on screen -- complete with audio commentary.
In the alert, PTC urges its members to pressure retailers not to carry GTA IV. Or, if retailers do choose to stock the game, PTC suggest that it be displayed where minors will not see it. Apparently concerned about another Hot Coffee situation, the PTC has also called upon retailers to:
...insist that Take Two... and the [ESRB] actually review all playable content before issuing a rating for the game. Given Take-Two Interactive's reckless or intentional misleading of the ESRB and ESRB’s failure to respond quickly in the aftermath of the “hot coffee” mod fiasco... retailers must be reassured, in writing, that the rating given the game is accurate and that there is no hidden or modifiable content in the game.
GP: While it is inevitable that GTA IV will be scrutinized carefully for any Hot Coffee redux, PTC oversteps by suggesting that content not be modifiable. There is an active GTA mod community just waiting to tinker with GTA IV. In fact, it was the mod community which revealed (but did not create) Hot Coffee in the first place.
The PTC alert also references the uproven theories of serial video game critic Dave Grossman.
Comments
As a Software Engineer, I can say, with near certainty, that it is impossible to make a game, or any program, without modifiable content. All programs are modifiable. Asking for unmodifiable programs is the same as asking for uncrackable DRM. It's not gonna happen, EVER.
Whatever happened to parents saying "you can't have that?" I asked for Contra: Hard Corps for Christmas. Instead I got Sparkster and an explanation that "I don't want you playing that other game."
Ain't that the truth. If only we had a videogames equivalent of Captain Planet we could summon.
Our powers combined...!
NIMF:The ESRB has failed again by alowing this game to be released! We give them an F! THAT MEANS FAIL!
Keith Vaz:Games like these are what led to the Manhunt MURDER! NO I DON'T CARE THAT SCOTLAND YARD DISSMISSED THE LINK!
JT:
PTA:We are so proud that we have the support of over 600% of American parents. Because of this, we are hereby demanding that the world's children be put in our custody, we demand the power to burn down stores that sell this ga- DAVE GROSSMAN?
Dave Grossman:THY'RE MURDER SIMULATORS! BUY MY BOOK, Killology, AVAILIBLE NOW! IT DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE SENSE! BLLHBGHBGLLLLHWBBRLBGWGBWBALBGWHRBGLWAAAAH!!!
Considering how much I hope the guys at Rockstar take advantage of the hardware for 360/ps3, it might be better for consoles, but here's hoping for some min specs that can make me proud!
FPS!
RPG!
Rhythm!
Platform!
MMO!
By your powers combined, I am Captain Gamer!
Go Gamer!
*ponders*
Ok... We'll consider such a suggestion on a few conditions.
1. Don't "mod" speech by taking quote and statements out of context.
2. Don't attempt to "mod" society to your ideal of morality.
3. Don't allow anyone to "mod" any religious texts from this point forward.
BTW PTC I'd start with #3 since you've had over 2,000 years to stop this heinus modding of religious texts and have failed for just as long.
FYI when you realize it's an impossible goal move on to the final step...
4. Stick foot in mouth.
Thanks.
- GTA IV is not subtitled “Liberty City”
- Hot Coffee required more than a simple code from the internet
- Hot Coffee could not possibly be accurately described as a “realistic sexual encounter”
- Hot Coffee did not have audio commentary
- Stores can’t sell pornographic content to children, not even in video games. Some states have even gone so far as to specifically identify video games in their obscenity statutes (Louisiana for example).
- At the time, unplayable content was not considered pertinent to a rating. That’s why Hot Coffee’s existence was not disclosed, not because Take Two was being deceptive but because there was no reason to do so. The ESRB has since changed its policy and all content on a game disc, playable or not, must be disclosed.
- The ESRB took a month to investigate and act on Hot Coffee. If you consider that a failure to act quickly I’m not going to argue the point. I personally felt that was an appropriate amount of time.
Andrew Eisen
Technically speaking haven't they raised the bar. After all aren't those games considered to be the new standard for appalling games.
"... but they can legally sell video games to children that contain pornographic content or that teach children how to kill"
You know what I fine really funny here is that, in the state of Pennsylvania at least, you can start hunting at the age of twelve. In fact PA has Mentored Youth Hunting Program were they are essentially encouraging people to teach children how to kill things using guns. Come on people where is the moral outrage.
"We must demand that retailers do their part to keep socially irresponsible games like Grand Theft Auto IV: Liberty City out of the hands of children. Please take action today. And please share this email with every concerned adult you know."
Because God forbid that parents should ever have to pay attention to the things that their kids are doing.
and while the mod may have been easy to get off the internet it almost certainly would take a fuck load of work for the average Joe to actually get it on their Playstation.
"ESRB’s failure to respond quickly in the aftermath of the “hot coffee” mod fiasco…"
The ESRB should not have responded at all it was an independant mod only playable on a hacked PS2. GTA SA should never have been re-rated as AO
Is that a compliment?
Apparently, in the PTC's own version of "morality", lies and deceit are acceptable practices. I guess "modified" news stories by tabloid trash organizations purporting to be news media are good sources for Parents to obtain "modified" content information regarding various products.
C'mon PTC, WHERE WERE YOU WHEN FOX NEWS WAS KNOWINGLY AND INTENTIONALLY LYING TO AND DECEIVING PARENTS?!
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Real life police officers murder people, Firemen break into other people's homes, and doctors stab people with sharp metal objects, sometimes resulting in their death. Isn't taking things out of context fun?
"Since its founding in 1995, the Parents Television Council has considerably lowered the bar for encouraging thoughtful parental responsibility and relies on soundbites, unproven hyperbole, magniloquent press releases, baseless accusations known not to be grounded in facts along with unproven theories to spread its mission of fear mongering with topics its founding members approve of…"
PTC can demand anything they damn well please, but everyone who knows anything about computers knows that preventing modding is impossible.
Should they also not carry books by Thomas Harris or Stephen King?
How about R-rated movies? Music with naughty words?
I guess all retailers should just stick to children's books and Disney videos. But not Warner Bros cartoons because those are too violent.
I'm pretty sure the ESRB isn't taking any chances after the Hot Coffee incident, which they were only slow on because it was entirely unprecidented. Did it count as a mod, or in-game content?
But then, with Elder Scrolls 4, they were on that like Jack T on an ambulance.
You shouldn't have to urge parents to keep inappropriate media away from their kids, you should EXPECT them to.
"The Grand Theft Auto games include constant graphic violence and sexual situations."
Constant sexual situations? Maybe if you went to the trouble of altering the game so that you could view the hot coffee content, you could have a short sexual situation...but constant? Don't make me laugh.
"In past versions, players could re-enact having sex with a prostitute, beating her bloody"
A prostitute could get into the car and it would bounce up and down. That's a far cry from re-enacting sex, and as far as I recall, the character models were not bloody after being shot.
"by using a code easily accessible on many internet sites, having a realistic sexual encounter on screen"
It was a little more than just a code. Do they think you just type in a series buttons and it appears in front of you? You had to go to some lengths to unlock the content, and if you were doing that, then you were well aware of what you were going to see. No kid ever saw this content by mistake, any kid that did see it wanted to and took steps to see it.
"This modification in the 2005 game was not disclosed to the Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB) when they classified the game M, which carried a suggested age of 17 and up for purchase."
If you played the game as it was supposed to be played and did not tinker with it, then it deserved it's M rating. If I change my copy of the bible by pasting in pornographic pictures, can I demand it be re-rated?
"The PTC is asking its members to call on all major retailers:
1) To reconsider any decisions to sell Grand Theft Auto IV: Liberty City."
How dare they?! Can you imagine the reaction if I began a campaign calling on retailers to not sell religious books because they offended me?
"retailers must be reassured, in writing, that the rating given the game is accurate and that there is no hidden or modifiable content in the game."
The original rating WAS accurate...
"3) To insist that the game not be displayed in view of minors
4) And finally, to call on retailers not to not market this video game to children."
For christ's sake, what do they expect? That all shops will build a little GTA IV booth at the back of the shop and hire a bouncer to make sure only adults go in and see the box? If I put up a sign for beers in my off-licence window and a kid sees the sign, am I marketing alcohol to kids? This is ridiculous.
"Legally, stores can not sell children pornographic magazines or handguns – but they can legally sell video games to children that contain pornographic content or that teach children how to kill."
Such horseshit... Porn magazines and handguns are not for kids, for obvious reasons. GTA IV may not be appropriate for kids but it does NOT harm them, does NOT contain pornographic content (unless you go to steps to put it there) and definitely does not teach them how to kill. A typical episode of the Sopranos contains stronger violence/adult content than GTA.
"Lt. Col. Dave Grossman , a West Point psychology professor, Professor of Military Science, and an Army Ranger stated:
"Certain types of these (video) games are actually killing simulators, and they teach our kids to kill in much the same say the astronauts on Apollo 11 learned how to fly to the moon without ever leaving the ground... ""
ROFL! The astronauts trained in REAL simulators! You know, with actual copies of the controls they would be using when piloting. They didn't use Dual Shock playstation controllers to train on.
"All you have to do is see what kids are being scripted to do (on the video games) to get the high scores, and you know that in a very short period of time, their dark fantasies are going to become your tragic realities.”
To get higher scores I push the buttons on the controller in the right order at the right time. I don't pick up a real gun. Any kid's dark fantasies are not inspired by video games, but by real life bullying, social problems and mental instability.
"We must demand that retailers do their part to keep socially irresponsible games like Grand Theft Auto IV: Liberty City out of the hands of children."
We must demand that you parents show a little fucking responsibility and do it yourself. It's not the retailers job to look after your children, it's yours.
I agree, the bar is much lower now. People get pissed off over content much easier now that graphics are better.
"In past versions, players could re-enact having sex with a prostitute,"
If by re-enact, you mean watch a car shake from side to side.
"beating her bloody, taking her money and running her over with a car;"
Of course you could do this to anyone on the street, hooker or otherwise
"by using a code easily accessible on many internet sites, having a realistic sexual encounter on screen — "
Have these people ever had sex? That was about as realistic as a game of "Afterburner"
"complete with audio commentary."
In this scene we wanted to show the complex relationship that CJ had formed with... oh, is that not the sort of commentary they meant?
"no hidden or modifiable content in the game."
We also want pictures of girls in bikinis made un-shoopable, cartoons to be Rule 34 proof, and water made drown proof. I don't think that's at all unreasonable.
Your parents are great. Sparkster is awesome.
I think you're confusing the PTC with Eliot Spitzer.
Some people are so stupid that the words they say actually transmute into physical pain through a method not yet discovered by science.
so f&ck you up the wrong un.
God I feel better for saying that.
(finding my inner Phil Ken Sebben) Haha! Topical Humor!
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Papa Midnight
Pardon my ignorance but was any of this actually possible in the game? What little I have seen of GTA has not been hugely realistic as far as sex and violence goes. The blood splatters on walls in Half life and Portal were graphically more unsettling to me than what little I've seen of GTA.
Does GTA actually show someone bleeding and battered when you beat them up? Is there actually any part where you see someone wearing less than their underwear?
Drop. Dead. You. Bastards.
"If you played the game as it was supposed to be played and did not tinker with it, then it deserved it’s M rating. If I change my copy of the bible by pasting in pornographic pictures, can I demand it be re-rated?"
That is so amazing. It's exactly the same thing.
Fangamer
No, I don't have a degree in English, but don't you have to actually do something before you can re-enact it? Namely in real life.
If people are able to re-enact any of this and aren't playing GTA from jail, well...society has bigger problems than a new video game.