May 1, 2008 -
One of the bloggers at Ladies Lotto has raised the issue of GTA IV's potential for violence against the game's female characters.
clothesminded writes:
clothesminded writes:
In GTA 4... not only can you pick up and have sex with prostitutes, but then you can kill them: with you[r] car, a gun, or whatever you have lying around. The sex is graphic... and the killings have great tag phrases.
In general I don't have a problem with violence in the media, in movies, etc. In this game however... you can make what you want to happen. Meaning you are choosing to pick up the prostitute and kill her, as opposed to driving your car...
After watching... on youtube, i felt sick, sad and angry.
Comments
I'm guessing Aussies and Kiwis are going to be missing out on most of the stuff in that video.
However, noting that this is about choice . . . I dunno. Its like being mad at God for allowing people to die. Not to deify Rockstar, but if we're going to talk about responsibility of actions, should we not concern ourselves more with the fact that people are doing this in game, rather than faulting the developer from making a robust ruleset for their game?
In fact, with most of the GTA games, this one in particular, if you play the character in a sympathetic way that's true to the character himself you're not actually likely to do it.
The choice is in the game to simulate, as much as possible, the same freedom of movement and choice that people have in day-to-day life. You can't have a moral decision to make or to have the opportunity to make a moral choice if the option to do the immoral thing isn't there.
Jesus... I mean, this is all ignoring the obvious sexism of her comment, and the fact that she's likely never played a game in her life and had to see a clip of it on Youtube to know what it was about.
Although, I'm hardly surprised that you can't. I've yet to meet a "feminist" who could discuss the issue logically. The moment you start pointing at the giant holes in their position the argument's all but over.
Actually I have played 2-3 hours already. While obviously not a huge sample of the game yet, so far there is absolutely nothing in the game that hasn't been done before or done better. I'm not claiming to be an expert on the game, or know everything that it contains yet. My activities largely at this point though have disappointingly consisted of:
Get call from my Russian cousin at the cab company.
Go pick up person X.
Take person X to place Y to do job Z.
Avoid crashing and killing people.
If cop starts chasing, evade cop.
Help with job Z.
Return person X to their origination.
Call Michelle to go out on a date, get told I'm being too 'clingy'.
Go to internet cafe and surf match.com...in game.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
While I would hope there is more to the game than what I've seen already, none of the gameplay so far is unique. Driving around town wreaking havoc wherever you choose? It's been done to death by several games. And frankly the cars are a little too squirly in GTA4 for my tastes.
Crackdown made the whole city ownage a little more interesting by giving you special abilities. Mass Effect gave you a morality system that made you actually think about your choices (though that wasn't unique either, but it was done pretty well). And as I mentioned, there's been countless 'drive around a real looking city' games.
What I would have liked to have seen from GTA4 (and if it does exist, please say so), was more of a morality system like was presented in Mass Effect. No, not necessarily being the 'good jedi' or 'bad jedi', but having your actions determine how the character evolved, and how NPC's interract with your character. If you choose not to kill person X, you might be rewarded with that by increasing your fame and be presented with other like-minded opportunities. Conversely, your infamy.
From what I've seen so far, there is only the 'be as bad as you wanna be' role in the game. Right away the main character is apparently fine with killing whomever you choose, and doing whatever you direct him to do. Sure, you can choose not to take a job at the expense of missing out on money and/or future jobs, but that's negative reinforcement. There's no positive reinforcement for making a moral choice, in fact you only get punished by missing that opportunity/reward. (Again, this is only what I've seen so far, if this is not accurate once the game progresses, please say so).
What's interesting about a character that has no morality and that doesn't evolve?
If you think the gameplay of GTA4 is 'great', what makes you think so?
Thats just one of the games many features.
That's exactly what I'm doing with my first run through, I'm noticing that Niko isn't as much of a bad guy as the protagonists in the other games.
Feminism is defined as "the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men" in the Oxford American Dictionary. Certainly, this isn't a bad thing? Anyone can be a feminist, provided they believe in this––men included.
I'm a feminist; I don't believe GTA IV is the end of civilization as we know it. These people are simply misinformed and stupid, not feminists. Some research would do them good.
Same here, I find myself really enjoying the game, much more so than the others. I didn't actually like the other ones, to be honest, but this one is much better...
And I... well, I can't say I LIKE Niko, but I have a certain degree of empathy and sympathy for him. He's an interesting character...
I think feminism was a good, necessary thing back in the day. It needed to happen and I'm glad it did and had I been around when it was gathering steam I likely would have marched alongside with the women who were fighting for an equality that didn't exist at that time.
Those are all good things, but the reality is that, in every way that counts, women ARE the equal of men. In fact, while you might want to point to very specific instances where that doesn't seem to be the case, I can point to an actual SYSTEMIC instance where women actually have the advantage.
If we live in a world where women are the equal of men in every way that counts, and feminism is about the "advancement of women's rights", then what does that tell you?
I've had many, many debates about the issue with some fairly frothy women about this issue and in every case the moment you challenge them on the issue they lose their minds. I've yet to meet a feminist who doesn't go insane when you point to the flaws in their argument and position and underscore the hypocrisy of which many of them are so seemingly unaware.
Ultimately a feminist whose been around and had their point of view challenged will haul out the old "it's not a feminist's job to look out for men's rights" chestnut, which is, of course, an absolute out-and-out hypocritical thing to say but also goes to the heart of what the movement is all about in this day and age.
"After watching the video of "possibility" on youtube, i felt sick, sad and angry."
After reading that sentence, I looked at the rest of this blog and noticed something rather mookish...
http://ladieslotto.blogspot.com/2008/05/ll-member-of-month-for-may.html
http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh93/llbren/?action=view¤t=IMG_...
Not to discredit her rage, but perhaps she should relax if they are posting that type of content on their blog.
So mass effect has a morality meter which makes you think about your choices.
I wasn't aware that real life had a morality meter, or am I missing something?
In Metal gear solid series, one which isn't quoted much on the morality in games front granted, but will serve well enough for this current purpose, you have a choice of killing or tranquillizing people. the game doesn't give you any extra reward for being the nice guy and sending people to sleep, in fact it makes the game harder, and yet I do it anyway.
People miss the fact that when people do the right thing in real life, a great deal of the time, they aren't given a gold star and a special weapon unlock with "your the good guy!" on it, no most of the time the do gooders get killed, burnt alive, executed because they did the right thing. This is why the majority of saints became saints after their violent grisly deaths.
This is why morality in games is so hard to portray, so often the only too moral stand points are saint-hood and baby eating, but so much of the time, the morality in games is the morality that we chose for ourselves, and while I can cackle as the group of pixels know as only as guard, tries to stop himself burning, I can't help but feel a pang of guilt as I listen to guard scream as he dies in engulfing fire.
So, if next time you shoot a pedestrian in the head in GTA4, and don't feel guilty, perhaps you who is lacking morals, rather than your character.
The idea that should be positive reinforcement in ethics in games is woolly headed, in real life there is no one who gives you a bonus for saving some ones life, the whole idea that you are doing the morally good act purely so that you can get the reward is quite frankly retarded, since you should performing the morally good act because you believe it to be the right thing to do.
She's complaining about how women are depicted in this game, which is a fair complaint for someone to have. That doesn't necessarily make her a feminist.
Nah, those would require more thought.
I agree morality is a tough thing to portray in games, but it CAN make for some compelling experiences.
I respect what you say, but I completely reject your assertion that human beings are altruistic. Let's face it, no one does any good deed without expecting some sort of a reward. We just aren't that evolved. If you honestly do think that anyone does a good deed just for the sake of doing it, that's a little naive.
No, I'm not expecting an old lady to give me $20 for helping her cross the road - that's not the kind of reward we're talking about. But if I help an old lady cross the road I would expect her to be grateful and say thank you. That doesn't make me a bad person that I expect that, is there anyone in the world that can honestly say they wouldn't? The reward doesn't have to be physical. Many religeous folks do the actions they do to get in good with their perceived higher power, they're seeking a reward...it doesn't make them bad nor does it discount their good deed...but they can't claim to be altruists either.
I agree that the morality of the player comes out more than that of the character, which is why I would have liked to have seen something more evolved for the most expensive and and one of the highest anticipated games ever made. One of the missions I did the other night involved helping some stoned guy get to a drug deal, then defend him by killing the other guys when the deal went south. What if I chose not to kill the other guys? Maybe the character I'm supposed to protect is really the 'bad guy'? Maybe by switching over and helping the other guys it opens a different quest line?
The only choices given from my recollection were: skip the mission and miss out on the contact and money, kill the other guys, or fail the mission. There's not a lot of wiggle room there.
Well, the feminism of women's rights was great. Their rights of voting, choosing, equality, etc. All great.
While you may not consider them feminists, they consider THEMSELVES as such, and quite frankly, this new movement, I despise it.
Because, it's no longer equal rights. It's superiority. Now, I'm not saying there are no good feminists, cause there are, and I respect them, but a lot of who are considered as feminists nowadays, whether by group, or self-title, or whatever, think they are superior to men and deserve more treatment then us, are more special.
I mean no offense, but when women want to be treated above men, that's beyond the boundaries of equality. I treat women well, because I like to be a gentleman, but I will stand up to a woman who wishes to confront me. She can yell out oppression all she wants, but she was the one who provoked me. I won't resort to violence, even if she lays the first punch. But I will take her down in defense if I must, female or not.
The older feminism was great. What it has become to many woman now, is horrible. Before it was about equality, but to many now, it's superiority.
Um... no. You can only see humping, and the women involved are almost always fully clothed.
Oh wait, you're probably taking the lap dances into account, right? That's not sex, my friend. I'm sorry.
You can have sex with a prostitute in real-life.
You can KILL a prostitute in real-life. You'll have the police on your back for doing so. In real-life and in the game.
...It something people decide to do. Just like real-life. Only, its easier in the game than here, why? Because of psychological constraints.
In real-life, you think of the reprecussions, the consecuences. What can happen? Will anyone find out? Will I catch something? Will I wake up without a kidney?
Just to name a few random thoughts concerning the situation.
In the game, you just do it, without any consecuences other than a lighter wallet. Or, if you decide, an M9 mag with a bullet less.
"not only can you pick up and have sex with prostitutes"
Assuming that it isn't sex slavery, what is wrong with that? Then again anti-sex feminists tend to assume that prostitution = sex slavery or rape and that you cannot choose to sell sex.
"but then you can kill them"
Or you could choose not to. GTA tends to reward this behaviour more by not risking a police chase, then dying or getting caught and losing money and all your weapons. You could also kill the people at the gun stores and fast foot places in previous games although I don't know if you could get your money back if you did. I might check that later.
"In general I don’t have a problem with violence in the media, in movies, etc."
OK, so maybe not anti sex, but definite double standards.
"In this game however… you can make what you want to happen. Meaning you are choosing to pick up the prostitute and kill her, as opposed to driving your car…"
Again, you could choose not to, and the 'reward' will be that the police will ignore you.
My main concern regarding prostitution in GTA IV is do they finally have male prostitutes that you can pick up, or does it have yet another male, rigidly heterosexual protagonist like the other later GTA games I have played.
also you can run over me so it balances out
Getting a reward for your good acts for me gives it less sense. what is the act that is most good. the person that help the granny cross the road then rubs his superiority by asking for thanks or the guy that just do it without thinking because it's natural for him and not doing it wouldn't come to him.
the real moral choicex involving good and bad are when the consequeces to your acts are not apparent.In a choice between saving the earth or yourself is easy to see the good or bad. it's far more interesting ofda choice if let's say a boat with twenty persons on it and only ten can survive. now that is an ethics challenge.
Sadly games aren't quite still there. The time will come but in the meantime I liked the witcher's style. More often than not when you had a choice to make you didn't know it them bang two-three hours later the consequences hit you.
Imagine it in this context. You get a hooker out in the game and after the deed you kill her. Three hours later you get a guy calling, he tells you somone is seeking to kill you because you have killed one of his girls. now that would be a consequence to your acts... you hit a pedestrian and you don't get a mission later in the game because the guy you've killed was the guy who gave you the mission. This is morality in games.
"Good" and "bad" are relative terms. That's part of what GTA is about. Besides, if you aren't careful with where you kill the prostitute, you get a cop on your case. And the "killing a random pedestrian ends the mission" thing would be stupid. Pedestrians die from things other than you, and that would require the entire world to be constantly loaded and rendered. Adding "morality" to GTA defeats the point of the game and bogs it down needlessly.
Seems to have a heterosexual protagonist. And what the hell do you mean by "rigid"? If a person's not "rigidly" heterosexual than they are either bisexual or "rigidly" homosexual.
Thus, good and bad are relative. Besides, just because a law says that something is illegal does not make it "bad". It is simply seen as "bad" in the eyes of the law. The guy who goes on a killing spree seems to have regarded his actions as "good". Some, depending on the ethnicity or income group of the people he killed, might argue that his actions were "good" because they got rid of people of that group.
This argument also brings up other problems. Whose morality is the game supposed to based on? Yours? Mine? Uncle Sam's?
I only ever found two. A fat one and an ugly one.
Yo, person that does good deeds without expecting some sort of a reward right here. Probably something to do with the old scout motto "Do a good turn daily." It's a matter of being courteous, kind and friendly.
I think we are agreeing in principle.
Well whoever it is based I say it is always positive to keep an open mind to the morality of others that is why freedom of speech. (in this case it can't be Uncle Sam the game is british ;) )
And I'd like to see more game give you consequences for the moral choices you make in the game. and not keeping them random might add a lot of realism because one of the reason people don't commit crime isn't because they WILL go to jail but because they MIGHT go to jail.
Ethics is a wide open field of game design at the moment.
It isn't so much the content of the game, it's getting the message across to politicians and parents that Mature means Mature.
The only form of sexual expression for the main character that I have noticed when playing previous GTA games was heterosexual. I am not particularly bothered by this but after having the option of bisexuality in Bully it would be nice to have it in GTA 4 or a sequel. The rigidity I was talking about was this lack of choice in the past, you had to be heterosexual, not have full expression of bisexuality or not have any expression of homosexuality. If I am wrong about this lack of choice then I would be happy to be corrected.
It's just something I would like to see, not as a part of the storyline but as an extra option. The absence of this choice is nothing worth getting upset over.
Maybe it's just the way I see the storyline, but Niko, like, I believe, most of the GTA characters of the past, is not someone whose fate you guide. He is somebody you have to identify with, and in order to identify with anyone, their character must be more or less defined. The heterosexuality is a part of that.
I also do things to help people without any desire for someone to return the favor. In fact, I personally feel that doing something good "with strings attached" like that spoils the good deed and invalidates it as such. I o things to help people out of a desire to help people, not out of a selfish need to get people to owe me favors...
And in this game Niko seems like a much nicer character than the others. And personally I think he is cooler. But if you ask me. This woman should have something better to do then complain about dead prostitutes in a video game that she has never even played.
I find that the very nature of virtue and doing the right thing is altruistic, since doing the right thing in many cases is where a subject has put themselves out for someone else, and from my own personal experience, (perhaps its because I am young and naive and not properly jaded) I find that the satisfaction of doing what I consider the morally virtuous to be enough.
Also there is a problem here, the character you're playing here is a criminal, so whatever moral mindset that you may have, the character has a mind set of his own, which is to make as much money as possible at the possible detriment of others.
To paraphrase the words of Aristotle, there is no such thing as virtuous rape.
ie you cannot be virtuous, while comiting acts that are inherently bad.
I also lament the lack of an edit button.
And quote button.
Exactly, you are choosing. The game is about choice. You have the ability to kill pretty much anyone. You have the ability to pick up prostitutes. They didn't make a specific action of 'Kill Prostitute'. I haven't picked up a prostitute in the game, and I have no inclination to. But if I decide to beat the hell out of a woman ingame, isn't that a lot better than doing that in real life? Though I wouldn't beat a woman in real life anymore than I would light my own eyeball on fire.
(Hopefully the tags worked and I don't look like an idiot. Meh, I'll look like an idiot anyways.)
I believe if I remember correctly (it's been a long time since philosophy classes) that the difference between morality and virtuousness was:
A moral action pertains to a determination between right and wrong. Morally 'good' being in line with what is perceived as 'right'.
Being virtuous pertains to habitually performing morally 'good' actions.
I'm not saying people that commit moral actions are doing it out of conscious selfishness...but deep down we all do them for a reason beyond just doing it. We all have motivation. To use the same example as before, I'd help an old lady across the street because I've been taught that it's a kind (ie: 'right') thing to do. Performing that action reinforces that thinking, and makes me feel good. I do it because it makes me feel like I've done something right, that I am a good person, and so that I can look at the event and say 'I helped someone' or potentially: 'I have made the world a better place'. I GOT that from the event, and what's more, deep down I KNEW I would feel that way afterwards. Thus I have committed an action to achieve the desired output, or what I referred to as 'reward'.
If you were confronted with a situation where you could help someone across the street, but knew ahead of time that you would be scorned, mocked, generally looked down upon for doing so, and basically feel worse about yourself afterwards even though it could be a moral action, would you still do it? That's where virtue comes in. If you knew those things ahead of time, I would hazard a guess that most if not all people would avoid it. A lot of people would like to THINK they would, myself included, but I know I'm no saint. I can't say I'll always make the right choice in every situation because I am imperfect, like everyone.
That's not a bad thing, and it doesn't make it less moral or virtuous. But in the end I get something from the event, even if it's no more than making me feel better about myself.
As to morality in GTA due to the main character being a criminal, well, I suppose you have a point heh. He is essentially without virtue, but theoretically he could perform more moral actions than he does...though likely not completely moral.
Secondly you can kill pretty much everyone in the entire game (with the exception of certain story characters) so why should prostitutes get special treatment.
I wonder though if the game included male prostitutes (that you couldn't get service from) or if the game presented more oppotunities to kill pimps would there be less protest?