Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by MaskedPixelante - June 12, 2008 at 6:42 am -0500
In November, I won't be voting because I'm Canadian. But if I COULD vote, I'd vote for Optimus Prime. Lets strike a blow against terrorist Decepticons ALL OVER THE WORLD!
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by nightwng2000 - June 12, 2008 at 7:16 am -0500
In November, I'm not voting because ALL the candidates aren't treated equally. We only know widespread about McCain and Obama (and up til recently, Clinton). But there are a great many individuals who have filed to run for US President, but the US citizens are denied equal access to information and widespread publicity about those other candidates, whether they are good or bad. Indeed, there were individuals who attempted to register to be candidates but were turned down, not because the US citizens DID say they didn't want them, but because a handful of individuals decided tha the US citizens didn't want them for candidates.
I do like one little comparison though:
The government wants to decide what media is or is not appropriate for the citizens, and their children, of this country. Just like the government wants to limit and/or decide who is or is not appropriate (beyond the set constitutional requirements) to run for US President or be given equal access to the US citizens, thereby effectively leaving the actual voting Rights in the hands of the government, not the US citizens.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by Benji - June 12, 2008 at 7:48 am -0500
If what you speak of are democratic or republican candidates, well, those parties apparently decided that Obama and McCain are the embodiments of the party platforms this year. Regardless of if they were your original favorites, if you can't support the standard-bearer of the party you identified with, maybe you should reconsider your party allegiances.
If what you speak of are third-party candidates, then vote third party anyway. No, a third-party candidate won't win the presidency this year (though if it were a Romney-Clinton contest, then I feel like a qualified third-party might have made a strong showing, especially if it were, say, Michael Bloomberg.) But, a third party that pulls more than (I think) 5% in an election finds following elections easier (I think they have increased access to federal funds and an easier time getting on subsequent ballots), so your vote for them still helps them quite a bit. And while your vote may not make a difference in national campaigns, it very well could in state or local campaigns, which is where the Libertarians and Greens have been making their biggest gains.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by nighstalker160 - June 12, 2008 at 7:52 am -0500
So your solution is to not vote? You can always write in another person if you want you know.
By not voting all you are doing is removing your opinions and beliefs, on this and any other issue, from consideration at all.
People running for election only care about the issues that are important to people who actually vote. That's why you don't see many candidates catering to issues important to the 18-25 year old demographic, because turnout in that group is only about 12%. However, senior issues (medicare, medicaid, Social Security Reform) are MAJOR issues because turnout in the 55+ demographic is 70+%.
The 18-25 demographic doesn't come out in enough numbers to actually make a difference, so why spend campaign money and campaign time appealing to a group that makes no impact? It doesn't make sense.
On the other hand, if you can capture 70% of the SENIOR vote you have a really good chance of winning, so go for that group.
The "I don't vote because..." protest angle simply doesn't work. Fine you don't vote, so why should a person running for office care what you think? It's not like you're threatening to take a vote away from him and give it to another candidate...you are a non-factor, it's as if you don't exist.
The way to change is to VOTE and get your voting demographic up, then suddenly your issues matter because YOU and people with like-minded ideas actually make a difference.
All not voting does is make it so that your concerns are even LESS important to the candidates than they already are. You simply dig yourself a deeper hole.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by nightwng2000 - June 12, 2008 at 8:11 am -0500
I already know that I don't count to the "approved" candidates. They, themselves, have already indicated that fact by their own statements.
And why don't alternative choices have a chance? Primarily because they exist as "unknowns" in comparison to the "approved" candidates. Do you honestly believe that had Third Party/Independant candidates been given equal access and treatment to the "approved" candidates that there wouldn't be a greater number of citizens voting for them? Many citizens choose either/or with the "approved" candidates because they believe there are no other options. Certainly they haven't been presented with those other options.
Whether not voting or doing a write-in vote, it's still a matter of my vote doesn't count. Just as my beliefs and issues as a citizen don't count in the eyes of the government.
When you watch the counting of the votes this year, see how many registered candidates are reported. Then tell me just how much voting for an "unapproved" candidate matters.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by the1jeffy - June 12, 2008 at 9:12 am -0500
This is the first time since I've started reading GP back when it was on LJ that you've said anything I've considered remotely foolish.
Not voting is not a protest, its a cop-out. Yes, your vote won't be counted immediately to assign victory to the main candidate, but it WILL be counted for posterity. Yes, balloting in this country is confusing, difficult to break a thrid party choice into, and all too different from state-to-state. Yes, the media makes voting into a horse race instead of an educated democratic (small d) process. Yes, a third party doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning (especially this election). There are major issues with our electoral process, especially the Presidential race which is so hyped and selective that the flaws are made evident.
But, enlighten me as to how not voting will change any of this.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by nightwng2000 - June 12, 2008 at 12:03 pm -0500
Not voiting isn't meant as a protest. It's a bold faced statement that I don't believe that either of the "approved" candidates are worth squat. And since the government nor the media wants the citizens to have no REAL opportunity to vote for potentially strong candidates, then there's no real purpose to voting.
You used the term "minor", but how do you KNOW that these other candidates are TRULY minor if no real, significant, comparison/contrast can be made?
Had all the candidates been given equal attention and resources from the very beginning, the weaker candidates could have been weeded out early on. Only the strongest, most capable, candidates would have been left by the day of election.
The really silly write ins (like Mickey Mouse) happen more likely because the citizen doesn't really know that there is anyone else other than the available "approved" candidates.
But there's no real purpose to voting for someone who isn't given the really true opportunity to be voted for.
At least in a fully informed society, a candidate that you vote for who loses will have actually earned the loss, rather than just having been denied the opportunity to prove or disprove their ability to even face the opposition.
It's not a protest. I merely feel that in the decades I've been of age to vote, that the government and media have already said that neither my voice nor my vote counts because I am not interested in the "approved" candidates. Why would I think they would care about my voice or vote if I DID vote for one of the "unapproved" candidates? There's been no real evidence to show that those who voted for for such candidates in the past have made a REAL difference. They've just been swept under the rug every time.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by nighstalker160 - June 12, 2008 at 9:39 am -0500
The U.S. election system certainly doesn't give equal chances to third/minor party candidates and there are severeal reasons (some good, some bad) for that.
Some third party candidates are single-issue candidates. They get into the race to talk about one issue and one issue only. They aren't running a serious campaign, they want the platform. There isn't anything wrong with that at all, but you can't expect them to be taken seriously as a contender. People simply aren't going to vote for a party/candidate that only cares about one issue.
Some third party candidates are well...lunatics (I'm looking at Lyndon LaRouche here) and obviously they won't be taken seriously.
Now, our election system is clearly stacked against third party candidates, whether by statute or custom and that isn't fair.
Part of the problem is that parties themselves. Officially the Republican and Democrat parties are PRIVATE entitites. They are NOT agents of the government. That is why they are allowed to set so many of their own rules (regarding who can vote in primaries for example). Most of those rules are designed to prevent your common third party people from getting into the primary mix in those parties, forcing them to go the third party route.
However, when a third party candidate makes a sufficiently strong showing that candidate, even losing the election by a landslide, can affect the agenda of the major parties.
Case in point, in 1992 Ross Perot won 10% of the popular vote a HUGE number for a third party candidate. The Republican party actually ended up co-opting a lot Perot's agenda when they took Congress in the 1994 Republican Revolution elections.
The Republicans recognized that, although Perot was trounced by both major candidates in the 1992 election, his message and ideas had resonated. So the Republicans, while modifying his ideas somewhat, basically co-opted Perot's message in the 1994 mid-terms. So some of Perot's ideas at least got into the mainstream.
However, that probably wouldn't have happened if the people who wanted to vote for Perot had gone "Well he wasn't given a fair shake [however true that is] so I'm just going to protest the whole system by not voting."
There's no way Perot's ideas would have been co-opted at all if he had only gotten 1-2% of the vote. But the fact that he could show his ideas resonated with the general population (by gettign 10%) forced the major parties to at least pay attention.
In a similar vein Ralph Nader is trying the same thing now, he wants his Consumer Protection ideas to get a fair hearing. He knows he, unfairly, has no real chance or exposure, but if he can at least show his ideas resonate he may force the mainstream parties to at least pay attention. Same thing goes for Ron Paul.
All not voting does is further marginilize the ideas and positions that people who support third party/minor candidates. It tells the Republicans and Democrats that no one actually cares at all...that these guys were just loons who no one paid attention to.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by Dog Welder - June 12, 2008 at 10:22 am -0500
Perot, I think, actually got a fair shake because he was able to BUY a fair shake. He purchased half hour blocks of network time DURING PRIME TIME to lay out his ideas and beliefs. I watched those, as did many other people, and Perot had some good ideas.
And then he went all crazy.
The point here is, the only way to be truly heard is to have a HUGE financial backing. Perot did it with his own funds. Most people do not have access to a billion dollar war chest.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by E. Zachary Knight - June 12, 2008 at 8:07 am -0500
@ Benji
No benefits given to the incumbunt parties should be denied to third party candidates. They should receive equal rights if they are on the ballot.
But there are also states such as Oklahoma that have severely biased ballot access laws that the incumbunt parties do not want to change because they don't want the competition. In Oklahoma this year, it will take Almost 50,000 signatures to get on the ballot. You may think that that sounds easy, but it is not. The people reviewing the petitions are very picky. You have to turn in only completed petition pages. If any page is not complete for any reason, the whole page is tossed out. So if a signature is missing the other 14 signatures don't count. If someone on the page changes parties or moves out of the county, the whole page is thrown out. If someone from a different county signs the petition of another county, the whole page is thrown out. If someone is not a registered voter, the whole page is thrown out.
So in the end, you often need double the required signatures to get a shot at getting on the ticket. Several organizations have been trying to get this law changed, but everytime a bill is introduced to cahnge this, the house and senate commitees that are run by the incumbunt parties shoot it down before it can get to a vote. It also doesn't help that your senators and representatives don't want to change and openly refuse to consider this kind of change, becaue they feel threatened by new parties.
@ Nightstalker
Not every state has a write in. Oklahoma and four other states don't. So how could some people do it if they don't have an option.
But as for Nightwing's comments, I agree with him. Although not the "I am not voting" part. The media and government regulation of the elections are very unfriendly to third party candidates. Many media debates will openly refuse to allow third party candidates in the debate even if they are on the ballot in the respective state.
A lot of the federal and state funding that the incumbunt paties have access to are denied to third party candidates.
The two major parties are perpetuating the myth that the US is a two party system and that those two parties are the Democrats and the Republicans. But it is a myth. Those two parties just happen to be in control right now and if they can keep the US citizens in the dark they will stay that way.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by Benji - June 12, 2008 at 8:22 am -0500
Oh, I agree, third parties get shafted unfairly, and as you said, the question is how to change this. And as I said, I think the solution lies in getting third party representation in local government. That provides some leverage that can be used in changing things at the local and state level, which in turn might make it easier to get third-party representation at the national level. A few libertarians or greens in office may be enough to publicize the issue that there are more than just two parties and better ways to run elections. And the main parties may not be able to ignore the issue once enough people know about it.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by E. Zachary Knight - June 12, 2008 at 8:44 am -0500
The only problem with that is that to get a third party officially recognized is just as hard. So while you can run and get a local office as an independant, you are not recognized as part of the Libertairian or Green party. You are simply "independant" That in and of itself is very counter intuative to the purpose. The incumbunt parties have worked hard to ensure that the population equates independant with something bad.
I would love for there to be more third party office holders. But the fact remains that too many people vote on party lines with out considering what these people stand for or what they do. Most voters just look at the hot button issues that noone has been able to resolve for years like Social Security etc. and completely ignore the more pressing issues that can be solve and need to be solved right now.
People are ignorant and the current system is designed to keep them that way.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by nighstalker160 - June 12, 2008 at 9:46 am -0500
Oklahoma doesn't have a write in for the PRESIDENTIAL election? I'm relatively sure that is unconstitutional. Despite the stacked process the write-in was created to preserve the "legal fiction" that ANYONE can run for President (provided the age and citizenship requirements are met).
I'm fairly certain that a state cannot, under Constitutional law, deny the write-in for election to a national office (Senate, House, President) because the only actual requirements to serve into those offices are set out by the Constitution itself. You cannot deny anyone who meets those requirements from running. You can stack the deck obviously, but you cannot outright prevent them.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by E. Zachary Knight - June 12, 2008 at 10:37 am -0500
Oklahoma and four other states. I am not sure off the top of my head which states make up the other four. But Idon't think it is unconstitutional or la teast has never been declared so.
Several ballot access organizations have been trying to get a ruling stating that OK's ballot access laws are unconstitutional on State constitution grounds. I don't think that it has gotten enough exposure to try to get a national ruling on it though.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by 1AgainstTheWorld - June 12, 2008 at 9:13 am -0500
While it's true that "one vote doesn't matter" (because anytime an election is close enough that one vote DOES matter, the final decision is made by the courts -- usually after much bickering), I'd say you should still vote for one simple reason:
If you don't vote, then you have no right to bitch about who won, because you didn't do everything you could to stop it.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by nighstalker160 - June 12, 2008 at 9:49 am -0500
I would be surprised if a national presidential election would end up in the Supreme Court again. The Bush v. Gore decision explicitly says that the case IS NOT precedential and almost every justice has repudiated the decision to even take the case at all.
Bush v. Gore is generally recognized as a MASSIVE failure of both the Constitutional and Election systems. I think it is far more likely that such a similar election would be thrown to the House of Representatives (as its supposed to be).
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by nightwng2000 - June 12, 2008 at 10:01 am -0500
Actually, I DO have the Right to complain about who does win because I have been denied the Right to a fair election, much in the same way some individuals are denied a Right to a Fair Trial.
Many court cases end up being a matter of the most popular side. And when the court makes decisions through technicalities or loopholes to reduce the effectiveness of one side or the other based solely on that bias, then a Fair Trial does not take place.
The same is true of the election process.
The fact is, the majority of citizens in the US are denied reasonable and appropriate access to information regarding ALL their options for candidates. As such, they are denied the Right to Vote based on their political leanings.
There's not a big leap from "You can't vote because you are <fill in the blank>" and "You only have these choices to make (even though you really have these others but if you don't know you do, tough, you don't have the Right to vote for THEM)."
Write-Ins should be for voting for non-registered candidates. Not for officially registered candidates. Yes, it would make the voting ticket huge. But it would also reduce the clear sign of bias against the "unapproved" candidates.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by nighstalker160 - June 12, 2008 at 10:14 am -0500
I presume you are referring to civil trials with your technicalities statement. In most cases a technicality in a criminal trial gets the defendant off (something not usually popular).
I will say this though, technicalities ARE the law. If you really want to get down to it, the Miranda rights are a technicality. If you aren't read them you get off. It's a pure procedural technicality, but an important one.
It isn't the Court's fault if some lawyer is delinquent or negligent and fails to comply with procedural requirements (which are spelled out and known to any lawyer certified to the Bar).
Additionally, American courts have what is called the "harmless error doctrine" an error can be ignored if it is deemed harmless to the proceedings.
The doctrine came out of a case in Missouri. Criminal indictments in Missouri are required to say that the offense was "against the safety and decency of the State" (emphasis added). There was an indictment that said "against the safety and decency of State" accidentally omitting the required "the". The judge through out a 12 count rape indictment.
Obviously there are some technicalities that shouldn't result in dismissal, but in most cases technicalities that do are the result of agregious constitutional errors that substantially impair one side or another's either fundamental rights or the ability of their to be a fair trial.
In Civil Actions most technical violations occur during discovery. One side is required to turn something over to the other side as part of the evidentiary discovery process. That side fails to do so in the timely manner set forth by the Scheduling Order issued by the Court. That will often result in dismissal of the matter (which can be brought back again).
In that case it was the VIOLATION OF THE TECHNICALITY that resulted in an unfair trial. One side was not afforded the same discovery ability of the other, there was not a fair trial.
Additionally, the U.S. criminal system is DELIBERATELY DESIGNED to be unfair. The defendant has NO burden to put on ANY evidence at all if he doesn't want to. The State, Commonwealth, or Federal Government is the sole entity with any burden to prove anything.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by E. Zachary Knight - June 12, 2008 at 10:44 am -0500
Nightwing does have a point. If you are denied the right to vote for your candidate of choosing because of the state you live in has unfair ballot access laws and the candidate of your choosing was unable to meet the high requirements for ballot access, what good does it do to vote for someone else who you do not agree with?
What good does it do to vote when the person you want to vote for has no chance because all the major networks won't give them any face time with the otehr candidates? How are people supposed to be well informed if these third party candidate cannot get media attention because they are not a part of the current system?
I would rather have 300 frivolous candidates on the ballot than keep the current system in tact.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by Arad - June 12, 2008 at 8:36 am -0500
While Optimus Prime has a good platform based on traditional values, his stance on immigration is a little too lax. On the flip side of the coin, the Mario/Luigi ticket is very enticing since they're both working men who are down to earth. Of course, this doesn't change the fact that they're both in the pocket of foreign royalty. If you elect Mario, you're giving this country to Peach!
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by Arad - June 12, 2008 at 12:25 pm -0500
In addition to the rumors of their rampant 'shroom habits, I also heard they got into trouble with PETA for an obsessive-compulsive need to abuse turtles.
I suppose this is offset by the troubling facts concerning Optimus's legitimacy as a candidate, concerning the ambiguous nature of his immigration to the States.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by TheEdge - June 12, 2008 at 8:55 am -0500
Ugh,if I could vote(I'm 15),I'd reluctantly vote for McCain,mainly cause he's stronger on national security and would seem better for the economy(even if we're not in reccession).Obama has pretty much hypnotized the world,but every time he opens his mouth,I trust his leadership abilities less and less.Not to mention his past,which is downright horrifying.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by Video Game Otaku - June 12, 2008 at 9:14 am -0500
If it even mattered who we vote for Id say Ron Paul >=D
The truth of the matter is Popular Vote is worth as much as a Mexican Peso in Japan. Weather or not we vote doesnt matter a single bit because its the delegates who actually vote. Yes they are suppose to and usually do vote based on our vote but they dont have to. The way its set up is complete crap. I can understand why they set it up, long ago before the digital age it would have taken far too long to count everyones votes, so every one electing someone who would represent them in DC worked. But now when 1 million votes can be tallied in the same amount of time of that of a single vote, its complete BS. So thats why even if we vote for the underdog, it doesnt realy matter beacuase congress is gonna vote for the main contenders. I say cut out the middle man, and use the unessissary salary money were paying to be used on things that actually matter. The whole election really is just one big publicity stunt to make us think our voice matters. SPEAKING of which...that bill that will give all them pay raises are crap. Yes, please pay them more so we can pay more when were already paying more for gas and food.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by Alyric - June 12, 2008 at 10:27 am -0500
Actually it was set up that way - among other reasons - so that candidates would have to campaign everywhere, rather than simply focusing on the most heavily populated areas.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by Orange Soda - June 12, 2008 at 11:19 am -0500
Reminds me of the "Vote Mario Party" advertising they had for whichever iteration of Mario Party back in 2004. I don't care for the Mario Party series, but I liked that bit of advertising.
As for the vote or don't vote controversy going on above, I'd rather vote for a candidate who isn't going to win than not vote at all. It's what I did in '04. In a way, they're both protests, I guess, but if you vote, you're at least actively saying "I am not voting for (Democrat nominee) or (Republican nominee)" to the political machine, rather than not saying anything at all outside of the internet.
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by SimonBob - June 12, 2008 at 3:27 pm -0500
I'm voting for Michael Edwards in the next Canadian election. He got the enchanted Gladius to Alex Roivas in Eternal Darkness, and I'm sure he can bring some light to the House of Commons too. :D
Re: Can't Get Behind McCain or Obama? How About Mario-Luigi '08
Submitted by Manuel deBettencourt - June 12, 2008 at 5:28 pm -0500
My candiate I'm voting for.....Sam Fisher. He knows how to lead and how to do it quietly. Atlas I must go and vote for Obama (I wished I was 18 though), as Sam Fisher is on a mission in the Republic of Congo.
Posted 08/29/08 at 10:52am ZippyDSMlee: feeman:DS is saying goverment would exspand more if the duims get in, he's probly right.
Posted 08/29/08 at 10:51am thefremen: LOL, yes, the government has not expanded at all in the last 8 years, especially not for the benefit of corporate entities.
Posted 08/29/08 at 10:51am thefremen: LOL, yes, the government has not expanded at all in the last 8 years, especially not for the benefit of corporate entities.
Posted 08/29/08 at 10:43am ZippyDSMlee: DS-
http://forums.theeca.com/showthread.php?p=84679#post84679
In OT BTW
Posted 08/29/08 at 10:32am ZippyDSMlee: Dark Sovereign: Sure ^^
Posted 08/29/08 at 10:29am Dark Sovereign: @zip: Make the thread. I'm just not active there.
Posted 08/29/08 at 10:28am SimonBob: Heh, I was just playing with the semantics for my own amusement, not trying to shoehorn my way into the argument.
Posted 08/29/08 at 10:28am ZippyDSMlee: Dark Sovereign: Iwish you would join the forums so we can have a full conversation these shouts are stifling!
Posted 08/29/08 at 10:27am ZippyDSMlee: Dark Sovereign:force them into the wilderness to die off...this is the reality of not taking into account what to do with the lower classes.
Posted 08/29/08 at 10:26am Dark Sovereign: @zip: What are you talking about? Less government means less taxes. Less taxes means more money in average Joe's pockets.
Posted 08/29/08 at 10:26am ZippyDSMlee: Dark Sovereign: you DO realize there were roving shanty towns and poor hosues before social secuty was started? they were hives for poverty and disease,hell with todays "cleanliness" in housing code you can not have them anymore and states will just forc
Posted 08/29/08 at 10:22am ZippyDSMlee: Dark Sovereign: noobies and their silly definition ^_~, but I ahve to ask how do you keep millions off the streets, taking twice as much money from states without social security and health care?
Posted 08/29/08 at 10:22am Dark Sovereign: You ASSUME that not giving tons of handouts to people will make them poor. America itself shows you are wrong.
Posted 08/29/08 at 10:17am Dark Sovereign: Fascism involves ever-expanding government. I just argued the exact opposite.
Posted 08/29/08 at 10:17am Dark Sovereign: Do either of you have any idea what "fascism" or totalitarianism IS? You aren't showing it.
Posted 08/29/08 at 10:08am SimonBob: "Fascism" is such a dirty word. Call it "totalitarianism" and at least it sounds vaguely reasonable, in a Heinlein-esque way.
Posted 08/29/08 at 09:50am thefremen: @Dark Soveriegn: You're advocating the values of fascism, you know that right? If we call it conservatism does it smell as sweet
Posted 08/29/08 at 08:36am gamepolitics: When I'm on the West Coast I miss my three-hour head start... wah...
Posted 08/28/08 at 10:03pm ZippyDSMlee: Dark Sovereign: right? ack sorry for the long windedness ><
Posted 08/28/08 at 10:02pm ZippyDSMlee: Dark Sovereign:infrastructure, let the states deal with the millions on disability or SSI let states run shanty towns for the great unwashed masses and all the death and disease that will ensue, as long as the middle and rich pay less taxes who cares righ
Comments
In November, I won't be voting because I'm Canadian. But if I COULD vote, I'd vote for Optimus Prime. Lets strike a blow against terrorist Decepticons ALL OVER THE WORLD!
---You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
Except for the fact Prime isn't a US citizen, he came from another planet.
Didn't stop Arnie...
Doesn't apply cause he's from the future
I'm voting for Cthulhu. Why vote for the lesser evil?
Vote Cthulhu!
images.cafepress.com/jitcrunch.aspx
Cthulu *IS* the lesser evil.
I'm voting Megatron myself, or Optimus. I'm not sure which right now.
In November, I'm not voting because ALL the candidates aren't treated equally. We only know widespread about McCain and Obama (and up til recently, Clinton). But there are a great many individuals who have filed to run for US President, but the US citizens are denied equal access to information and widespread publicity about those other candidates, whether they are good or bad. Indeed, there were individuals who attempted to register to be candidates but were turned down, not because the US citizens DID say they didn't want them, but because a handful of individuals decided tha the US citizens didn't want them for candidates.
I do like one little comparison though:
The government wants to decide what media is or is not appropriate for the citizens, and their children, of this country. Just like the government wants to limit and/or decide who is or is not appropriate (beyond the set constitutional requirements) to run for US President or be given equal access to the US citizens, thereby effectively leaving the actual voting Rights in the hands of the government, not the US citizens.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl
If what you speak of are democratic or republican candidates, well, those parties apparently decided that Obama and McCain are the embodiments of the party platforms this year. Regardless of if they were your original favorites, if you can't support the standard-bearer of the party you identified with, maybe you should reconsider your party allegiances.
If what you speak of are third-party candidates, then vote third party anyway. No, a third-party candidate won't win the presidency this year (though if it were a Romney-Clinton contest, then I feel like a qualified third-party might have made a strong showing, especially if it were, say, Michael Bloomberg.) But, a third party that pulls more than (I think) 5% in an election finds following elections easier (I think they have increased access to federal funds and an easier time getting on subsequent ballots), so your vote for them still helps them quite a bit. And while your vote may not make a difference in national campaigns, it very well could in state or local campaigns, which is where the Libertarians and Greens have been making their biggest gains.
So your solution is to not vote? You can always write in another person if you want you know.
By not voting all you are doing is removing your opinions and beliefs, on this and any other issue, from consideration at all.
People running for election only care about the issues that are important to people who actually vote. That's why you don't see many candidates catering to issues important to the 18-25 year old demographic, because turnout in that group is only about 12%. However, senior issues (medicare, medicaid, Social Security Reform) are MAJOR issues because turnout in the 55+ demographic is 70+%.
The 18-25 demographic doesn't come out in enough numbers to actually make a difference, so why spend campaign money and campaign time appealing to a group that makes no impact? It doesn't make sense.
On the other hand, if you can capture 70% of the SENIOR vote you have a really good chance of winning, so go for that group.
The "I don't vote because..." protest angle simply doesn't work. Fine you don't vote, so why should a person running for office care what you think? It's not like you're threatening to take a vote away from him and give it to another candidate...you are a non-factor, it's as if you don't exist.
The way to change is to VOTE and get your voting demographic up, then suddenly your issues matter because YOU and people with like-minded ideas actually make a difference.
All not voting does is make it so that your concerns are even LESS important to the candidates than they already are. You simply dig yourself a deeper hole.
I already know that I don't count to the "approved" candidates. They, themselves, have already indicated that fact by their own statements.
And why don't alternative choices have a chance? Primarily because they exist as "unknowns" in comparison to the "approved" candidates. Do you honestly believe that had Third Party/Independant candidates been given equal access and treatment to the "approved" candidates that there wouldn't be a greater number of citizens voting for them? Many citizens choose either/or with the "approved" candidates because they believe there are no other options. Certainly they haven't been presented with those other options.
Whether not voting or doing a write-in vote, it's still a matter of my vote doesn't count. Just as my beliefs and issues as a citizen don't count in the eyes of the government.
When you watch the counting of the votes this year, see how many registered candidates are reported. Then tell me just how much voting for an "unapproved" candidate matters.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl
This is the first time since I've started reading GP back when it was on LJ that you've said anything I've considered remotely foolish.
Not voting is not a protest, its a cop-out. Yes, your vote won't be counted immediately to assign victory to the main candidate, but it WILL be counted for posterity. Yes, balloting in this country is confusing, difficult to break a thrid party choice into, and all too different from state-to-state. Yes, the media makes voting into a horse race instead of an educated democratic (small d) process. Yes, a third party doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning (especially this election). There are major issues with our electoral process, especially the Presidential race which is so hyped and selective that the flaws are made evident.
But, enlighten me as to how not voting will change any of this.
(At least vote for me in 2016 when I run?)
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
The 2016 elections seem to be pretty crowded already. I want to run then.
So how old will you be? I will be 36 at the time.
E. Zachary Knight
www.editorialgames.com
Technically, I'm old enough at 40 now.
But looking at this, I'd probably fail to muster up to expectations. Being non-religious Agnostic is one reason.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-requirements-to-run-for-president-in-the-united-states.htm
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl
Not voiting isn't meant as a protest. It's a bold faced statement that I don't believe that either of the "approved" candidates are worth squat. And since the government nor the media wants the citizens to have no REAL opportunity to vote for potentially strong candidates, then there's no real purpose to voting.
You used the term "minor", but how do you KNOW that these other candidates are TRULY minor if no real, significant, comparison/contrast can be made?
Had all the candidates been given equal attention and resources from the very beginning, the weaker candidates could have been weeded out early on. Only the strongest, most capable, candidates would have been left by the day of election.
The really silly write ins (like Mickey Mouse) happen more likely because the citizen doesn't really know that there is anyone else other than the available "approved" candidates.
But there's no real purpose to voting for someone who isn't given the really true opportunity to be voted for.
At least in a fully informed society, a candidate that you vote for who loses will have actually earned the loss, rather than just having been denied the opportunity to prove or disprove their ability to even face the opposition.
It's not a protest. I merely feel that in the decades I've been of age to vote, that the government and media have already said that neither my voice nor my vote counts because I am not interested in the "approved" candidates. Why would I think they would care about my voice or vote if I DID vote for one of the "unapproved" candidates? There's been no real evidence to show that those who voted for for such candidates in the past have made a REAL difference. They've just been swept under the rug every time.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl
The U.S. election system certainly doesn't give equal chances to third/minor party candidates and there are severeal reasons (some good, some bad) for that.
Some third party candidates are single-issue candidates. They get into the race to talk about one issue and one issue only. They aren't running a serious campaign, they want the platform. There isn't anything wrong with that at all, but you can't expect them to be taken seriously as a contender. People simply aren't going to vote for a party/candidate that only cares about one issue.
Some third party candidates are well...lunatics (I'm looking at Lyndon LaRouche here) and obviously they won't be taken seriously.
Now, our election system is clearly stacked against third party candidates, whether by statute or custom and that isn't fair.
Part of the problem is that parties themselves. Officially the Republican and Democrat parties are PRIVATE entitites. They are NOT agents of the government. That is why they are allowed to set so many of their own rules (regarding who can vote in primaries for example). Most of those rules are designed to prevent your common third party people from getting into the primary mix in those parties, forcing them to go the third party route.
However, when a third party candidate makes a sufficiently strong showing that candidate, even losing the election by a landslide, can affect the agenda of the major parties.
Case in point, in 1992 Ross Perot won 10% of the popular vote a HUGE number for a third party candidate. The Republican party actually ended up co-opting a lot Perot's agenda when they took Congress in the 1994 Republican Revolution elections.
The Republicans recognized that, although Perot was trounced by both major candidates in the 1992 election, his message and ideas had resonated. So the Republicans, while modifying his ideas somewhat, basically co-opted Perot's message in the 1994 mid-terms. So some of Perot's ideas at least got into the mainstream.
However, that probably wouldn't have happened if the people who wanted to vote for Perot had gone "Well he wasn't given a fair shake [however true that is] so I'm just going to protest the whole system by not voting."
There's no way Perot's ideas would have been co-opted at all if he had only gotten 1-2% of the vote. But the fact that he could show his ideas resonated with the general population (by gettign 10%) forced the major parties to at least pay attention.
In a similar vein Ralph Nader is trying the same thing now, he wants his Consumer Protection ideas to get a fair hearing. He knows he, unfairly, has no real chance or exposure, but if he can at least show his ideas resonate he may force the mainstream parties to at least pay attention. Same thing goes for Ron Paul.
All not voting does is further marginilize the ideas and positions that people who support third party/minor candidates. It tells the Republicans and Democrats that no one actually cares at all...that these guys were just loons who no one paid attention to.
Perot, I think, actually got a fair shake because he was able to BUY a fair shake. He purchased half hour blocks of network time DURING PRIME TIME to lay out his ideas and beliefs. I watched those, as did many other people, and Perot had some good ideas.
And then he went all crazy.
The point here is, the only way to be truly heard is to have a HUGE financial backing. Perot did it with his own funds. Most people do not have access to a billion dollar war chest.
@ Benji
No benefits given to the incumbunt parties should be denied to third party candidates. They should receive equal rights if they are on the ballot.
But there are also states such as Oklahoma that have severely biased ballot access laws that the incumbunt parties do not want to change because they don't want the competition. In Oklahoma this year, it will take Almost 50,000 signatures to get on the ballot. You may think that that sounds easy, but it is not. The people reviewing the petitions are very picky. You have to turn in only completed petition pages. If any page is not complete for any reason, the whole page is tossed out. So if a signature is missing the other 14 signatures don't count. If someone on the page changes parties or moves out of the county, the whole page is thrown out. If someone from a different county signs the petition of another county, the whole page is thrown out. If someone is not a registered voter, the whole page is thrown out.
So in the end, you often need double the required signatures to get a shot at getting on the ticket. Several organizations have been trying to get this law changed, but everytime a bill is introduced to cahnge this, the house and senate commitees that are run by the incumbunt parties shoot it down before it can get to a vote. It also doesn't help that your senators and representatives don't want to change and openly refuse to consider this kind of change, becaue they feel threatened by new parties.
@ Nightstalker
Not every state has a write in. Oklahoma and four other states don't. So how could some people do it if they don't have an option.
But as for Nightwing's comments, I agree with him. Although not the "I am not voting" part. The media and government regulation of the elections are very unfriendly to third party candidates. Many media debates will openly refuse to allow third party candidates in the debate even if they are on the ballot in the respective state.
A lot of the federal and state funding that the incumbunt paties have access to are denied to third party candidates.
The two major parties are perpetuating the myth that the US is a two party system and that those two parties are the Democrats and the Republicans. But it is a myth. Those two parties just happen to be in control right now and if they can keep the US citizens in the dark they will stay that way.
E. Zachary Knight
www.editorialgames.com
Oh, I agree, third parties get shafted unfairly, and as you said, the question is how to change this. And as I said, I think the solution lies in getting third party representation in local government. That provides some leverage that can be used in changing things at the local and state level, which in turn might make it easier to get third-party representation at the national level. A few libertarians or greens in office may be enough to publicize the issue that there are more than just two parties and better ways to run elections. And the main parties may not be able to ignore the issue once enough people know about it.
The only problem with that is that to get a third party officially recognized is just as hard. So while you can run and get a local office as an independant, you are not recognized as part of the Libertairian or Green party. You are simply "independant" That in and of itself is very counter intuative to the purpose. The incumbunt parties have worked hard to ensure that the population equates independant with something bad.
I would love for there to be more third party office holders. But the fact remains that too many people vote on party lines with out considering what these people stand for or what they do. Most voters just look at the hot button issues that noone has been able to resolve for years like Social Security etc. and completely ignore the more pressing issues that can be solve and need to be solved right now.
People are ignorant and the current system is designed to keep them that way.
E. Zachary Knight
www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma doesn't have a write in for the PRESIDENTIAL election? I'm relatively sure that is unconstitutional. Despite the stacked process the write-in was created to preserve the "legal fiction" that ANYONE can run for President (provided the age and citizenship requirements are met).
I'm fairly certain that a state cannot, under Constitutional law, deny the write-in for election to a national office (Senate, House, President) because the only actual requirements to serve into those offices are set out by the Constitution itself. You cannot deny anyone who meets those requirements from running. You can stack the deck obviously, but you cannot outright prevent them.
Oklahoma and four other states. I am not sure off the top of my head which states make up the other four. But Idon't think it is unconstitutional or la teast has never been declared so.
Several ballot access organizations have been trying to get a ruling stating that OK's ballot access laws are unconstitutional on State constitution grounds. I don't think that it has gotten enough exposure to try to get a national ruling on it though.
E. Zachary Knight
www.editorialgames.com
While it's true that "one vote doesn't matter" (because anytime an election is close enough that one vote DOES matter, the final decision is made by the courts -- usually after much bickering), I'd say you should still vote for one simple reason:
If you don't vote, then you have no right to bitch about who won, because you didn't do everything you could to stop it.
I would be surprised if a national presidential election would end up in the Supreme Court again. The Bush v. Gore decision explicitly says that the case IS NOT precedential and almost every justice has repudiated the decision to even take the case at all.
Bush v. Gore is generally recognized as a MASSIVE failure of both the Constitutional and Election systems. I think it is far more likely that such a similar election would be thrown to the House of Representatives (as its supposed to be).
Actually, I DO have the Right to complain about who does win because I have been denied the Right to a fair election, much in the same way some individuals are denied a Right to a Fair Trial.
Many court cases end up being a matter of the most popular side. And when the court makes decisions through technicalities or loopholes to reduce the effectiveness of one side or the other based solely on that bias, then a Fair Trial does not take place.
The same is true of the election process.
The fact is, the majority of citizens in the US are denied reasonable and appropriate access to information regarding ALL their options for candidates. As such, they are denied the Right to Vote based on their political leanings.
There's not a big leap from "You can't vote because you are <fill in the blank>" and "You only have these choices to make (even though you really have these others but if you don't know you do, tough, you don't have the Right to vote for THEM)."
Write-Ins should be for voting for non-registered candidates. Not for officially registered candidates. Yes, it would make the voting ticket huge. But it would also reduce the clear sign of bias against the "unapproved" candidates.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl
I presume you are referring to civil trials with your technicalities statement. In most cases a technicality in a criminal trial gets the defendant off (something not usually popular).
I will say this though, technicalities ARE the law. If you really want to get down to it, the Miranda rights are a technicality. If you aren't read them you get off. It's a pure procedural technicality, but an important one.
It isn't the Court's fault if some lawyer is delinquent or negligent and fails to comply with procedural requirements (which are spelled out and known to any lawyer certified to the Bar).
Additionally, American courts have what is called the "harmless error doctrine" an error can be ignored if it is deemed harmless to the proceedings.
The doctrine came out of a case in Missouri. Criminal indictments in Missouri are required to say that the offense was "against the safety and decency of the State" (emphasis added). There was an indictment that said "against the safety and decency of State" accidentally omitting the required "the". The judge through out a 12 count rape indictment.
Obviously there are some technicalities that shouldn't result in dismissal, but in most cases technicalities that do are the result of agregious constitutional errors that substantially impair one side or another's either fundamental rights or the ability of their to be a fair trial.
In Civil Actions most technical violations occur during discovery. One side is required to turn something over to the other side as part of the evidentiary discovery process. That side fails to do so in the timely manner set forth by the Scheduling Order issued by the Court. That will often result in dismissal of the matter (which can be brought back again).
In that case it was the VIOLATION OF THE TECHNICALITY that resulted in an unfair trial. One side was not afforded the same discovery ability of the other, there was not a fair trial.
Additionally, the U.S. criminal system is DELIBERATELY DESIGNED to be unfair. The defendant has NO burden to put on ANY evidence at all if he doesn't want to. The State, Commonwealth, or Federal Government is the sole entity with any burden to prove anything.
Nightwing does have a point. If you are denied the right to vote for your candidate of choosing because of the state you live in has unfair ballot access laws and the candidate of your choosing was unable to meet the high requirements for ballot access, what good does it do to vote for someone else who you do not agree with?
What good does it do to vote when the person you want to vote for has no chance because all the major networks won't give them any face time with the otehr candidates? How are people supposed to be well informed if these third party candidate cannot get media attention because they are not a part of the current system?
I would rather have 300 frivolous candidates on the ballot than keep the current system in tact.
E. Zachary Knight
www.editorialgames.com
While Optimus Prime has a good platform based on traditional values, his stance on immigration is a little too lax. On the flip side of the coin, the Mario/Luigi ticket is very enticing since they're both working men who are down to earth. Of course, this doesn't change the fact that they're both in the pocket of foreign royalty. If you elect Mario, you're giving this country to Peach!
<_<
Not to mention Mario and Luigi's rampant addiction to magic mushrooms and other "power ups".
In addition to the rumors of their rampant 'shroom habits, I also heard they got into trouble with PETA for an obsessive-compulsive need to abuse turtles.
I suppose this is offset by the troubling facts concerning Optimus's legitimacy as a candidate, concerning the ambiguous nature of his immigration to the States.
>_>
Sad thing is that I'd still vote for them over McCain or Obama.
Sad, but true for me as well. : /
Ugh,if I could vote(I'm 15),I'd reluctantly vote for McCain,mainly cause he's stronger on national security and would seem better for the economy(even if we're not in reccession).Obama has pretty much hypnotized the world,but every time he opens his mouth,I trust his leadership abilities less and less.Not to mention his past,which is downright horrifying.
As for game related candidates,Solid Snake '08!
I'd vote for an Outer Heaven policy. At least it's straight forward.
If it even mattered who we vote for Id say Ron Paul >=D
The truth of the matter is Popular Vote is worth as much as a Mexican Peso in Japan. Weather or not we vote doesnt matter a single bit because its the delegates who actually vote. Yes they are suppose to and usually do vote based on our vote but they dont have to. The way its set up is complete crap. I can understand why they set it up, long ago before the digital age it would have taken far too long to count everyones votes, so every one electing someone who would represent them in DC worked. But now when 1 million votes can be tallied in the same amount of time of that of a single vote, its complete BS. So thats why even if we vote for the underdog, it doesnt realy matter beacuase congress is gonna vote for the main contenders. I say cut out the middle man, and use the unessissary salary money were paying to be used on things that actually matter. The whole election really is just one big publicity stunt to make us think our voice matters. SPEAKING of which...that bill that will give all them pay raises are crap. Yes, please pay them more so we can pay more when were already paying more for gas and food.
Actually it was set up that way - among other reasons - so that candidates would have to campaign everywhere, rather than simply focusing on the most heavily populated areas.
Personally, I'd vote for Samus Aran. Now THERE is a woman who's big on defense.
Hunting the shadows of the troubled dreams.
That's shirt has been up for a while Dennis, but a great shirt nonetheless.
You can get it at thinkgeek.
been up there for a good while now
I'm going for the Ryan/Fontaine vote. Their campaign slogan ("Would you kindly make the right choice?") really stuck with me for some reason ;)
Reminds me of the "Vote Mario Party" advertising they had for whichever iteration of Mario Party back in 2004. I don't care for the Mario Party series, but I liked that bit of advertising.
As for the vote or don't vote controversy going on above, I'd rather vote for a candidate who isn't going to win than not vote at all. It's what I did in '04. In a way, they're both protests, I guess, but if you vote, you're at least actively saying "I am not voting for (Democrat nominee) or (Republican nominee)" to the political machine, rather than not saying anything at all outside of the internet.
Am I the only one who saw the
"Itsa merica!"
no, i saw it as well
I'm voting for Michael Edwards in the next Canadian election. He got the enchanted Gladius to Alex Roivas in Eternal Darkness, and I'm sure he can bring some light to the House of Commons too. :D
---
The Mammon Industry
My candiate I'm voting for.....Sam Fisher. He knows how to lead and how to do it quietly. Atlas I must go and vote for Obama (I wished I was 18 though), as Sam Fisher is on a mission in the Republic of Congo.
Screw that!
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=12693397603&ref=ts
(if you don't watch YouTube Poops, you won't get it)
I'm voting for General Zod. I don't want him to kill me.
http://zod2008.com/
I stopped reading right at the "L" of Luigi.
FUCK NO!!!
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