Video game industry consultant Vincent Scheurer (left), speaking the Develop conference in Brighton, warned that future game bans were possible in the UK.
As reported by gamesindustry.biz, Scheurer said:
The costs of the Manhunt 2 ban to RockStar were massive - an independent developer would be out of business... Call of Duty and BioShock could be banned under that criteria [that applied to Manhunt 2]… The next game to be banned could be BioShock 2, and then where would we be?
...It makes the business of making games that much harder.
Scheurer also spanked ELSPA boss Paul Jackson for praising the Manhunt 2 ban:
While we fail to fight back we will continue to be blamed for all of societies ills… In my view [European game developers group] Tiga was the only association to step up… Tiga realised, where the other's didn't, that this was about more than Manhunt 2.
Gamezine has more on Scheurer's remarks...
And GameSpot UK has even more...
Comments
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Incorrect. The logical conclusion of having been found guilty or given a ban would be if the VAC came back and agreed with the BBFC. At this point Manhunt 2 would have to be modified to get a release, never get a release, or wait until the moral climate has changed to allow such a release as a 18 cert.
Some of you people just don't understand that obtaining a rating is part of a process. Usually that process goes smoothly, but sometimes there have to be changes made. Would you suggest for instance that Pulp Fiction got banned because they made them change a scene where Vincent injected Heroine so that it didn't show the needle? No, it was a cut that was made before it was resubmitted and they got its 18 cert.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
I suppose that's the issue with a rating board having legal authority or having enforceable ratings...
Every game and movie in the United States goes through rating. Is it part of the process? Yes. Is it mandatory? No. It is meant to be informative -- not determine what a few individuals feel should or shouldn't be sold to the general public. If a movie or game doesn't get a rating here in the US it'll either a) simply not be carried by any retailers or b) in the case of movies it'll just have an unrated edition available at the store and games w/o ratings can be sold over the internet. If the ESRB refused to rate a game then the developer/publisher can simply sell it on the internet. The rating only applies to whether a retailer will decide to sell it or not. Is that a ban? No, because the game can still be sold in the US. Is it illegal? Thankfully it's not.
My issue with the BBFC is that it has more power than a rating board should have. It can make decisions on whether or not a game can or cannot be sold by refusing classification. Yes, this decision can be appealed, but it is a costly process that wastes taxpayer and industry funds. Also, if the BBFC is anything like other rating boards of its kind then I assume that to receive a rating then a studio/publisher/developer/etc. must pay THEM to rate their game, am I correct? If that is the case then they should keep their end of the bargain. Rate the game or refund the money. In this case Rockstar paid to have a game rated and had to pay court fees to get the very organization they paid to rate their game in the first place to do what they paid them for to begin with!
I will never understand the "advantage" of a rating board having the force of law/government behind it. If anything it simply creates issues like this.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
As we Brits are tired of repeating, You cannot apply US thoughts to UK culture. You've said nothing new here that hasn't been said by others, but you keep banging on about there being a force of law behind the BBFC. It makes no difference who is doing the rating, there will ALWAYS be the force of law behind who is doing it as Finn has correctly pointed out.
"I will never understand the "advantage" of a rating board having the force of law/government behind it. If anything it simply creates issues like this."
And until you do, or try to accept this is the UK way of doing things, we will continue to correct you when you come at the subject with an Americocentric viewpoint.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Sorry draconian is draconian regardless of it being “properly British” or not. *lick*
I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
(in need of a bad overhaul)
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.
---
http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
We feel the same way about everyone in the US owning guns and having death penalty, so what is your point exactly?
Oh as typing *licks* makes you sound like a fucking furry, so kindly keep your tongue to yourself unless it is used to enunciate a useful sentence.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
I think Zippy is Zippo - and IS a furry (and a well-known pest of a furry at that).
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
"but it is a costly process that wastes taxpayer and industry funds. Also, if the BBFC is anything like other rating boards ... then a publisher must pay THEM to rate their game, am I correct?"
Tax payer money doesn't factor into it. The BBFC is fully funded by the fee's it levys. Also, if the results of the VAC appeal is sucessful then the BBFC offers a full refund of all costs from the appeal process. Which would have been the case with Rockstar. I would also point out the ESRB and PEGI also levy fees.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
I should correct myself... The court process that Rockstar, or any other company for that matter, had (or would have) to go through cost taxpayers money. That was a mistyped thought on my part. I am fully aware that the BBFC, PEGI, and especially the ESRB get their money from the companies who want their movies or games rated.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Quite frankly, thats what the courts are for and the judicial review wasn't exactly a large scale affair. If it was the scale and farce like the Hutton Enquiry I may agree with you but look at it with a sense of perspective. Personally speaking, I consider it money well spent, if it didn't happen then chances are Manhunt 2 would never have been released (although I am not exactly a fan of Manhunt or Rockstars antics.) Its all part of a process that has resulted in a re-assessment of where the goalposts lie.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
So you are saying a court case brought about by immaturity and stubbornness to not slot a adult media to the adult range is somehow not a farce?
Sorry the minete they decry higher ground and refuse to rate something is either as mature or mature restricted is the minute they become a bunch of immutable fassicists.
I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
(in need of a bad overhaul)
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.
---
http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
"Sorry the minete they decry higher ground and refuse to rate something is either as mature or mature restricted is the minute they become a bunch of immutable fassicists."
I have read this sentence 5 times and it still makes not one iota of sense.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Dear lil woolie friend its simple the court was used as leverage to un ban the game, the BBFC has not learned from the process and will continue to ban anything that goes to extremes, instead of realizing their folly and adapting properly.
I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
(in need of a bad overhaul)
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.
---
http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Dear unintelligible and illiterate friend with no spell checker, I'm so glad that someone outside of the country, outside of the industry and outside of the company knows so much about the BBFC that he can comment on what they have learned and what they are going to do in the future.
Your wild speculation and ridiculous supposition only adds to your reputation.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Actually you've got things a bit backwards.
The BBFC doesn't ahve the force of law behind it, it simply applies the ratings that are already enforced by law. If the BBFC was shut down tomorrow and PEGI was put in it's place then the PEGI standards would be enforced by law.
Also everyone whinging about the BBFC not giving ratings being a scary idea. What the hell do you think the American AO rating does? Exactly the same thing.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Incorrect on the last part.
It doesn't carry the weight of law behind it. That is a HUGE difference in the way our different rating systems work. A game CANNOT be sold in the UK if it has no rating. A game with an AO rating CAN be sold in the US. Retailers may not carry it but people can still buy it off the internet if they want. The de facto ban comes from the console manufacturers -- Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft. Does anything they say about the game being on their consoles carry the weight of law? Nope. It certainly does not. The game still got rated and it can still be sold. THAT is a massive difference between the AO rating in the US and no-rating at all in the UK. That is not the same thing.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Um, you DO realise that any game that isn't rated may still be owned by a member of the public, just not sold within the UK? Thus importing it into the country for personal use is NOT illegal.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Never read about how porn is treated? contraband media including videogames can be confiscated by the mail system and it has happened, sure its randomly enforced but EVERYONE is trying to tell you all it takes is one administration to make it mirror New zelands anal retentive censor board, one simply dose not want such power for the government to muse over not with the age laws being more than enough, so pull your head out of your ass and see than banning is not good,that instead of banning they should just slot it correctly and be done with it, if Man hunt 2 was treated as a mature product meant for adults it would have been slapped with an 18 or better yet they can slap it with a 18R and call it obcense to the point of porn.
I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
(in need of a bad overhaul)
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.
---
http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
So... you are giving an american example about porn to a British issue about gaming...
...
A few things to say. If you don't have the time or ability to either spell words correctly or form a sentence that makes any sense, being disparaging or rude (using phrases like pull your head out of your ass) leaves you open to ridicule, EVEN if you have some form of learning disability or dyslexia.
Secondly, giving an example of US Porn laws in the context of UK gaming laws in frankly laughable. Over here we didn't flinch when there was sex in Oblivion of GTA:SA. Oblivion, there was political pressure on the ESRB to allow for modders making skins that were outside of the original content and they changed the rating from Teen to Mature. In the UK it is STILL a 15, because much as you would like to paint it differently, the BBFC do not succumb to political pressure.. With GTA:SA, there was NO chance of it being an AO game as it would STILL have been 18 even if the sex mini game HAD been included in it; we are not all puritanical.
"Banning is not good" is a very naive phrase. I suggest you do some research into the UK way of life and the US legal system and see just had little media content is actually censored to the public this side of the pond compared to your own. that you have your knickers in a twist over a single computer game means fuck all to 99% of us.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
I will apologise in advance for my drunken misgivings before they are pointed out to me.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
You know…. You call me a incapable incoherent but fail to realize you are trying to get blood from a stone, or in this case proper spelling and grammar from someone that’s learning disabled who can spell a word in such a way he has to re spell it 5 times in order for a spell checker to figure out what the word is, if you cannot get a brain and read and try and comprehend the subtle soury mash then don’t bother because the insulting, belittling or using “ZOMG the spelling he’s just a spaz/idiot he has nothing to say move along move along” straw man of last resort is more annoying than my silly inane banter.
Perhaps I am not the only one that needs to remove head from arse here, I’ll admit I can be an arse I can be incoherent and oh I can dog one element of a issue into the ground and rape its weepy corpse(like eeww :P) but in general there’s something more than poo in what I say if here was not I would be beaten dumber by the ban stick in not only here but in the forums as well.
I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
(in need of a bad overhaul)
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.
---
http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Being dyslexic or "learning disabled" is no excuse for not running you text through a spell checker. Having just done so on an example block of text it corrected not only the spelling mistakes, but also some of the grammar too. This is not about embarrassing you, it is about being able to understand what you are saying. Some of your sentences are incomprehensible no matter how much you read them.
You go on to mention "straw man argument" but frankly that is hypocritical given that you are constantly calling people names like 'sheeple' (horrible bastadisation of two words... please don't use it) if they disagree with you, which frankly is most of the posters here. Furthermore, if you are going to admit that you are only making "silly inane banter" to begin with, it undermines your position from the off.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
can we have this in english?
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
I think he means to say that it would've been easier and less painful if the BBFC had just slapped an 18 or R18 rating on it to begin with instead of creating a big controversy over Manhunt 2 by refusing to rate it to begin with.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
It is a shame we don't have a "r18" for games. That would have been good.
(R18 (just porn, but I'd like to see it expanded) can only sold in lienced shops.
So MH2 gets a "really bad shit" sticker. Requires entering dodgy shop to get. Little Timmy can't really ask mummy to buy it for him.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
We already have an 18 rating for games. The point is lost as the BBFC thought it overstepped the 18 mark. The VAC disagreed and consequently it got a rating. Why you Americans want to make more of this that there is is beyond me.
The BBFC have guidelines they have to adhere to as a body that reviews games and DVDs and Movies based upon not only legal issues but a moral code applicable to the current day. They played Manhunt 2 and thought that the moral implications of it were grave enough for it to not even get an 18 certificate. The provisions in place to assert where the line is crossed in the UK disagreed (by 4 to 3 in favour of Manhunt 2) and said it should be allowed a release, which ultimately happened.
THERE IS NO 1ST AMENDMENT LAW IN THE UK. Ofcouse, over here we also laugh that your terrestrial TV doesn't allow people to say 'fuck' after 9pm, or allow any sex or sexual content. That seems to slip through your filters in the in censorship department...
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Why do you twist everything I say in my posts to make an entirely different point?
You have a rating for PORN -- 18R. Why couldn't that rating have been applied IN THE FIRST PLACE? It would've avoided the whole controversy, the game would've been sold, everyone would be happy, and the BBFC wouldn't have made idiots of themselves to the international gaming community.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
"You have a rating for PORN -- 18R. Why couldn't that rating have been applied IN THE FIRST PLACE?"
Because Manhunt 2 is NOT porn, much as Jack Thompson would like people to believe otherwise. Is that not obvious enough for you?
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
If I implied that I didn't believe someone in the UK couldn't own the game then you must've misread what I wrote. I said the game can't be SOLD in the UK if it is unrated whereas an AO game CAN be sold in the US. I don't need to import to purchase an AO game here in the US. I don't know where you got ownership of an unrated game from my post but I never said any such thing.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Okay, but you accept that in the US the contraints on selling a game with an AO rating are such that most would choose to either redesign and downgrade it than sell it under those conditions?
No system is perfect, and suggesting that the US is somehow superior because it effectively bans something in a different way to the UK is frankly silly.
What you and other americans need to realise is that the 1st amendment begins and ends in your country. We in the UK know about our censorship laws and accept them. In well over 99.99%, these laws serve us very well and we have no problem with them. That you do.. has very little impact on the UK way of life. You can bitch and moan about the UK laws until you are blue in the face, but we are very happy with them.
On the same token, it is amazing how many americans become very defensive when you point out that over 11,000 americans are killed by guns a year and that their 2nd Amendment laws are causing them more deaths than are necessery. It is a culture thing. Accept it.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Did you not read my post?
I never said it was banned in the US. There is NO LAW in the US that could ban it. The only ones who have the power to effect a ban on a game are the Big Three themselves -- but that applies internationally and is not exclusive to the US. A game does or does not get banned because of anything in from the legal system in the US. The US does not place these constraints on selling AO games: the retailers do. Contrast that with the UK where it is the government that places the constraints of the sale of selling unrated games.
Retailers != Government
This isn't a topic of our 2nd or 1st Amendment rights. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't want government in my gaming. You may be ok with it but I'm simply trying to express a view.
Every single time you bitch about something us Americans say on here just remember where you are: an American run website, from an American blogger, who works with/for an American based organization that is working to secure the rights of -- you guessed it -- American gamers.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
... talking about British Politics than affects British Gamers and their British Ratings Board. You point is moot.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
"Its[sic] not that the release date was pushed back, it was pushed back indefinately[sic] depending on the result of the apeal[sic]."
And if courts knew how long every case was going to last I'm sure they would love to give out accurate dates of when people can plan for their 'not guilty' parties.
"The fact that it could not be released as scheduled because the BBFC refused to classify it, comes accross[sic] to me as a ban although temporary but possibly permanent."
So if someone is remanded in custody before the decision to charge them with a crime, doesn't that mean they have been found guilty?
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
I don't buy into that. If the law suit was over a matter of copyright and the game was put on hold until the legal dispute was resolved you would not call that a ban.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
FEAR! SOMETHING MIGHT THEORETICALLY HAPPEN! EVERYONE PANIC!
pfft.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Does anyone else out there feel if Dennis is intentionally painting the UK in a bad light? Mibby a siege mentality helps sell more ECA memberships?
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Dennis, no. I do think the headline sucks, but it will get readers. And that equals ads.
The person who wrote the article sounds like a fool typing any old trash. But if he is a popular enough fool it is Dannis' job to report it.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Then what sort of stories would you like to see instead? Perhaps you would like to see Dennis gush endless amounts of praise upon the infalible BBFC and lament that a similar system has not come to this side of the Atlantic yet.
But I wouldn't hold your breath expecting a story such as that to come from Dennis or Gamepolitics any time soon. But I wouldn't doubt that something of that nature could be found on www.copycatviolence.com some day.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
No, you're just paranoid and looking for fault to find with Dennis.
-Gray17
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
This is a very hypothetical situation. He is just speculating on the possibility of a more in demand game being refused classification and then being barred from sale.
It does make you wonder.
E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
OK Game Devs
Random Tower
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Your a forum mod arent you? Is it possible you can mention to Dennis to rejig the headline/summary? Look at the number of posters who have aleady assumed Bioshock 2 is lined up for the banhammer.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Freedom of speech doesn't apply to unpopular speech.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
JT? Is that you?
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
You just tell yourself that troll.
E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
OK Game Devs
Random Tower
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
I think that was sarcasm.
A troll would have said that games aren't speech.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
I guess the question is, under what justification do they want to ban the sale of Bioshock 2 for? All things considered, Bioshock wasn't half as bad as other titles such as Manhunt 2, GTA IV, or Gears of War. In fact Biochock was more of a thinking man's FPS, so I ask again, "Why ban the sequel?"
"The Good, the Bad, and Videogame"
Reviews on the best, worst, and controversial issues of Videogames.
gryphonosiris.blogspot.com/
"The Good, the Bad, and the Videogame" Reviews on the best, worst, and controversial issues of Videogames. gryphonosiris.blogspot.com/
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Why did the Aussie government effectively ban Fallout 3 but not 1 or 2?
Government doesn't need a reason to be stupid, it just is.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
And I ask, where in the article does it say Bioshock 2 is going to be banned. Its one mans opinion.
ARTICLE MISLEADING
THERE IS NO TALK OF BIOSHOCK BEING BANNED. THIS IS NOT EVEN A RUMOUR. ITS AN ANALYSIST JUSTIFYING HIS JOB.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Oh shut the fuck up. This is the biggest pile of pish I've read on this site on a long time. Rockstar court controversy just about everywhere they go, I wouldn't be suprised if that was factored into their business model. The original Manhunt sold terribly in the UK until it was wrongly linked to a murder. Hell, R* could be a considered one of the greatest liabilitys to the industry. Look at how much heat has been drawn because of that one developer.
Let face it, Rockstar are always going to push bounderies in what is effectivly a young medium. So what happened with the BBFC is of no suprise, but what this guy is failing to acknowledge is the situation got resolved.
Lets talk about other games that could be banned, The next Paper Mario could be banned after it was rumoured to take a dark turn with Luigi sneaking thru the Mushroom Kingdom and taking a drill to Princess Peaches skull.
Re: Game Biz Guru: Bioshock 2 Next to be Banned in UK?
Let's just stifle creativity all together while we're at it. For now on movies must never have nudity, cursing, or violence, music must never have provocative lyrics or foul language, and all books must be about bunnies and rainbows.
Rockstar is far from the only developer that has come under fire for censorship. What about Mass Effect? Or pretty much any shooter? Rockstar is only cited so often because they have such a popular franchise. If GTA never sold well the thought crime police would be targeting a different IP.