German Video Game Laws Explained

German Video Game Laws Explained

August 4, 2008

At GamePolitics, our coverage of political developments related to video games typically focuses on the United States, the U.K., Canada and Australia. One reason is that there is a lot happening in those places. Another is that, sadly, we have no fluency in other languages.

However, video game content issues are a political hot potato in a number of other countries, Germany among them. So we were pleased to come across an excellent recap of German video game legislation published in English by the Internet Business Law Service

In response to the [2006 Emsdetten school] shooting, the German states of Bavaria and Lower Saxony drafted legislation that would fine and possibly jail video game developers who create and market games containing ‘cruel violence on humans or human-looking characters...’

 

The Protection of Young Persons Act (PYPA) is a German legislation that protects youth... from the influence of inappropriate movies, games, and certain public places, including gaming places and those selling alcohol. The Act was enacted in 2002... establishes that video games or any other games cannot be publicly accessible to children or adolescents unless they are cleared and labeled for their appropriate age group by the supreme state authority...

Games have been banned and confiscated in Germany:

The County Court in Munich decided to confiscate all versions of "Manhunt" in July 2004... Other games, including... "Dead Rising," were placed in the Index and confiscated by a Hamburg County Court decision of June 2007...

The German experience in World War II apparently is driving some of the concerns over violent video games:

Nonviolence and pacifism form the cornerstone of the modern German society, where the memories of Adolf Hitler and the Third Reich are still vivid... A major cultural and moral dilemma in Germany is how to reconcile its determination to apply the lessons of the past to educating and protecting its youth, while remaining a free and open society.  

 

Comments

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

That developer-related piece of legislation is probably the most disturbing out of the whole bunch.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

So Hitler taught them that war is bad.

Pity they forgot to learn that government thought control is pretty bad as well.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Here, here.  Zee Germans have learned nothing.  They just censor the crap out of stuff now.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

This episode of Major Nelson's XBox Live podcast has a great interview with the director of XBox live programming in germany, Boris Schneider-Johne. One of the things they talk about is german videogame ratings and laws.

majornelson.com/archive/2008/03/02/show-270-the-one-gdc-xna-and-raoe.aspx

How I love living in Austria. All the benefits of germany with none of the restrictions.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

I'd say the same vice-versa.

In Germany an uncut version of Fallout 3 will probably receive an 18 rating. And even if it won't receive a rating I'll be able to legally purchase it and it can be sold legally (although not displayed publically).

So I'm happy I'm living in Germany rather than Australia, all the benefits without the restrictions ;)

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

^^^read again. Austria, not Australia

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

If you live in a free and open society the leadets never need to tell you how free and open you are.

Germany fails.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Umm ... exactly how does censoring a game relate to leaders telling you how free and open you are?

Engage brain, then post. Or post Anonymously, I guess.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

If the leaders of a country knows censorship is going on and does nothing to stop it. Then yes they would be hypocrites if they brag about their freedom, because a land with censorship is by proxy a land of restrictions. And a land of restrictions... you get my drift.

I would quote you but im not an asshat.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Except that freedom isn't possible without restrictions of some kind. Otherwise the society would be anarchic.

The real question is whether you should be able to restrict freedom of speech and still maintain a liberal and open society. Which works perfectly, as every politically adept German will tell you. And freedom of speech isn't really restricted in any major or significant way.

Again: Every country, in some way or another, restricts (and must do so) the "freedom" of its citizens. The question is simply in which areas of society restirctions are viable.

Americans traditionally hold freedom of speech in a higher regar then any other country, which doesn't mean a society can't be "free" with minor restrictions in this particular field.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Restricted freedom is not freedom. And no, there is no such thing as a "liberal and open society" that restricts free speech, especially as severely as the Germans do. Such restrictions violate the "open society" part.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

As I said before, a completely free society would be an anarchic one.

In pure scientific, undisputable terms.

The USA for example restricts the freedom of its citizens to choose which substances to use to alter their perception (aka drugs) in a much more strict way then most european countries. The US laws restrict your freedom to choose in an arbitrary way for every true liberal (in the actual sense of the word, not its American connotation)..

Even in the most "free" society in terms of freedom of speech you are not (and can not nor should you be) allowed to say everything. Serious death threats are illegal in the US as well. This is just one of a myriad of examples I could come up with. Its just a question of where to draw the line.

So even the US restricts the freedom of speech of its citizens, in a manner nobody could seriously object to. Because if these restrictions weren't in place it would endanger other highly held values of liberal democratic society (like living secure and unharmed). Again, the question is where you draw the line.

Which values can and must be restricted in which way in order to uphold other values and vice-versa. Every country answers this question in a slightly different was, but to say that they aren't liberal and open because they have different conceptions isn't very intelligent.

 

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Free speech protects opinions. It is one thing to say that you think somebody should die, and a completely different thing to say you're going to do it yourself.

And no, Germany is not liberal and open. Liberal, yes, but not open. No society that has "hate speech" laws can truly be called open. Free speech means you can express your bigotry, and such laws do not allow that expression. In the United States, it is perfectly legal to call somebody a nigger, chink, or gook. Such speech would not be tolerated in Germany.

Germany also fails as "liberal and open" because of their censorship issues. You liberal and open means respecting different styles and expression that disagrees with your values. Germany does not do this.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

So are you allowed to recruit people to fight for Bin Laden in the US?

Because if you aren't, then you obviously aren't free.

 

Sarcasm ends here, but you get my point. The world isn't black and white, and just because you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theatre does not mean that you "fail" as a liberal and open country.

Also, Germany does not hold criminal suspects in another country just to weasel out of it's own constitution. *COUGH*Guantanamo*COUGH*

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Did you read the last quote in the newspost?

Kettle, meet pot.

 

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Wow. Didn't even get to the end of the article and it Godwin's Law'd itself.

Oy vey.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Ah, fascism is alive in well in the great state of Germany...

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

If you're posting from the USA or the UK, I would advise shutting up immediately before you're impaled on a giant irony spike.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Please. The United States is not now, and never has been a fascist or communist state. Comparing our policies to those of Hitler and Mussolini should reveal this. The United Kingdom is experiencing a strong bout of socialism, though it hasn't developed into full blown Communism. I wish it a swift recovery.

Is the United States engaged in active control over it's media? No. Is the ruling party of the United States killing, imprisoning, or otherwise silencing its political opponents? No. Is the United States torturing its citizens? No.

Article II of the Constitution allows the president to search without a warrent. The prisoners of Guantanamo are not POWs. I'm assuming you've been taking in far too much of the big three liberal channels and/or magazines.

Accusing the United States of fascism is ludicrous. I suggest you read up on both topics.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

 

The US is a capitalistic nation with no protection of government from it, look at faux news and paid or at the very least requested propaganda.... the US is more a aristocratic system with elected rich nobles to herd the population and elect thos “selected” to higher office by proxy while rape them in their sleep through the inept political process, if the system was not broken I would call it a mockery.

I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
(in need of a bad overhaul)

 

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

This statement is laughable and deserves no serious deconstruction.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

That was me, ulix ;)

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

From the standpoint of an average American this might be true.

From the standpoint of every political scientist this is bull****.

Strong(er) government control by no means equals socialism. Guys, please do your homework.

And making up a new term for POWs, so that they are neiter called POWs nor have to be subjected to a regular civil court doesn't undo their real status.

Its as if country X would imprison wariors, would call them "Enemy Assholes" and would then say: "Oh no, they are not POWs, the are Enemy Assholes, so the Geneva Conventions don't apply..."

Pure hippocracy. But well... the Bush administration... what can you say...

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

POW status is only granted to combatants in uniform who follow the Geneva Conventions themselves. Al-Qaida and similar "militias" have no uniforms and refuse to follow the Geneva Conventions. Thus, no protection is granted to them. Their "real status" is that they are terrorists. Under the Geneva Conventions, they can be tortured and shot with impunity.

Stronger government control doesn't necessarily mean socialism, but nationalizing health care and banning guns certainly qualify.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

"Under the Geneva Conventions, they can be tortured and shot with impunity."

And only an American would claim, that your country can actually do that and still be a human rights respecting, non-fascist, free country.

The "real status" of the Guantanamo prisoners is, that you don't fucking know, what they are. Your governemnt claims , they are terrorists, and that's all there is to it. No charges, no court proceedings, no "innocent until proven guilty". You don't want foreigners to call your country borderline fascist? Stop kidnapping innocent people off the streets, and stop being so arrogant to think, that it doesn't matter, because it doesn't happen to you. I don't care if it's your own citizens in Iowa or a German citizen in Pakistan - it's still wrong. Some of them didn't wear uniforms for the sole reason that they didn't do any fighting and weren't member in any organization. One case gained quite a lot of attention in Germany, because a German citizen was wrongly imprisoned in Guntanamo for years. The reason? Someone claimed without any proof whatsoever, that some guy he knew was a fighter for the Taliban. Apparently, that's enough.

Also, fyi, the Geneva convention is binding in any case, it doesn't matter, if your opponent follows it himself or not. (There is one precedent to your line of thinking, I won't mention names, but let's just say that as a German I know some things about that. Is that the kind of people, you want to be compared with?)

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

The vast majority were captured on a battlefield with weapon in hand. How does that not count as an enemy combatant? It isn't "some of them" not wearing uniforms- it's ALL OF THEM. Read "Generation Kill", if you want a first hand account of this behavior.

One German does not an entire prison make.

Read here. It matters if a country has signed the conventions. None of the militants usually detained belong to such an nation.

Our country could nuke the world and still be a free, non fascist country. American freedoms only extend to Americans.

You have no idea what fascism is.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

It does not matter, and the article doesn't even say otherwise. Did you actually read it?

But thanks for illustrating my point - your country doesn't torture prisoners, so that your own men won't get tortured, and not the slightest bit because your government thinks, it's wrong to torture people. Now where does that put you?

"The vast majority were captured on a battlefield with weapon in hand. How does that not count as an enemy combatant?"

They were captured on a battlefield with weapon in hand, in a war. How does that not make them prisoners of war?

"Our country could nuke the world and still be a free, non fascist country. American freedoms only extend to Americans."

And yet, you still wonder, why the world hates you.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Russia could nuke the world and still be a free, non-fascist country, because Russian freedoms only extend to Russians.

Dude, so we should hate Russians too?!?!?! Wow man, thanks for that. I now have a new nation that I hate!

Idiot...

 

But for the poster before this one, American freedoms actually extend to an extent to anyone in America. Some rights are granted to foreigners, some aren't.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Under the Geneva conventions a person can be EITHER a Civilian OR an enemy soldier.

So you either put them in front of a civil or a military court or you let them go free. Full Stop.

Just making up a new, third term that fits your world view doesn't make it any less wrong or illegal to detain these people. A view which the (conservatively domintated) US Supreme Court seems to share, as I should maybe mention.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Well I would consider terrorists as non-civilians and non-combatants and DEFINATLY deserving of torture, but it should be live on television.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

They are called "unlawful combatants". It isn't a new concept. They do not swear allegiance to any nation, and are therefore not granted any protections by international treaties.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Hang on - since when is the UK "sufferuing from a strongh bout of Socialism"? Have you even visited the place? Jesus...

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Why would visiting it matter? Socialism is found in laws, not the pavement.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Because first-hand experience always counts for more than second-hand opinion. As anybody who has ever visited the UK could tell you, Britain is a rampantly capitalist, free market country, There's been nary a trace of socialism since Thatcher first took power. Unless, of course, you count the NHS, but as far as Universal Healthcare goes, the USA is the exception, not the rule. Unless, of course, you'd consider Canada socialist?

Or, how about we put this another way - in what way is the UK socialist? Go on, this ought to be amusing. 

-- teh moominz --

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Current German laws mandate, that every game or movie has to be rated by the appropriate ratings organization (USK for games, FSK for movies). Rated material may not be sold to minors below the indicated age.

Now these new laws of 2002 may seem to be a step down, but actually they're an improvement: Before that law, USK ratings were, what ESRB ratings are in the USA today - of no legal consequence, yet present on every single game. Now, that the ratings are legally binding, something important has changed - games that are USK-rated, cannot be placed on the Index. The Index means no ads, no reports in gaming press, not even putting the game into store shelfs - the game is essentially commercially dead. No one learns of its existence, and those who do want to buy it, can't, because no store will stock it. (Don't even bother ordering online, if you can't sit around all day to accept the delivery in person. Yes, the postman will check your papers.)

In the aftermath of the Erfurt shooting Counterstrike was put on that Index, and we all know how violent that game actually is. Given this ridiculous act of populism and blind activism, that kind of protection is actually an improvement for developers. For gamers, nothing has changed much - now, games are being self-censored to get rated, before, they were self-censored, to not get put on the Index for arbitrary reasons. (Famous examples that predate these laws: German C&C and German Half-Life replaced soldiers with robots. Command & Conquer actually had a NOD mission, where the robot men slaughtered innocent robot civilans in an act of terrorism.)

The contents got better, and you can actually buy all games, so I'm not that bothered by those new laws. The system itself isn't that bad, it's just the attitude, that games have to be censored, to be rated suitable for adults only, that has to go.

(Just so you know, all of this applies to legal stuff only and is solely for the protection of minors. For really hard, really violent stuff, we have even more laws in addition to these.)

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

From what I understand from freinds there and some net noming it basically means games that wound have been baned before are now black listed, they can be sold but not to minors in fact minors can not even see them in adverts or on the shelf.

they should polish the law up to make it easier for adults to get the mature media while protecting minors.

I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
(in need of a bad overhaul)

 

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained
So is it illegal to own Manhunt or just sell and buy it in Germany???
Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

It is definetly NOT illegal to won it.

Is isn't even illegal to buy it for yourself and personal use only.

But is is in fact illegal to sell it, to buy it to show it to others, etc. 

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

The article is a bit unclear on the relation between the Index and the penal provision it mentions.

Manhunt violates said penal provision, which is part of criminal law and entirely separate from these youth protection acts. This means, that you can't sell it, you can't buy it, but you can own it and it won't get confiscated. When the article mentions "confiscated", this refers to "confiscated from store shelves", because those were copies intended for sale.

Note, that this is entirely separate from the Index, which is part of the youth protection acts, doesn't prohibit buying or selling the games/movies/whatever listed on it to adults and won't lead to having the games seized.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Now, I'm not the only one who saw it right? How they totally stabbed themselves in the foot with that last comment? Violence is bad and Hitler-esque, but controling speech is totally not repeating history! The mighty self parody!

 

-Entertainment isn't the reason the world sucks. It's the reason we know the world sucks. For information on games and psychology, look up: Jonathan Freedman(2002)Block & Crain(2007)Grand Theft Childhood, by Harvard researchers Larry Kutner&Cheryl Olson

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Now, I'm not the only one who saw it right? How they totally stabbed themselves in the foot with that last comment? Violence is bad and Hitler-esque, but controling speech is totally not repeating history! The mighty self parody!

The arguement about the use of speech is much more sophisticated than you make out. The use of political speech in 30s Germany was very important. It was through the systematic abuse of the media, and the control of all political discourse, that the National Socialists managed to stultify the mass of the German people into accepting, or at least encouraged them to look the other way, while whole segments of the population 'disappeared'. That happened through a process of 'dehumanisation'. Is is no wonder that the German State, which now grants far greater human rights protections than most other Western States, is concerned about particular forms of speech that might be seen as 'dehumanising' indivuals and treating them as worthless; not deserving the proper protections that are accorded to all human life.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

They turn into censorship Nazis in order to stop becoming real Nazis!

It's all just a compromise.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

I'll try to wrap it up a bit:

Basically, we have the following seven levels of "ratings":

USK-rated suitable for anyone: sale to anyone allowed, can't get put on Index, rated by independent ratings board USK (e.g. Brain Age)
USK-rated 6+: sale allowed to anyone ages six and above, can't get put on Index, rated by independent ratings board USK (e.g. Worms 2, can't think of anything newer)
USK-rated 12+: same for 12 and above (e.g. World of Warcraft)
USK-rated 16+: same for 16 and above (e.g. Mass Effect, Counterstrike up until Erfurt shooting)
USK-rated 18+: same for 18 and above (e.g. The Witcher, Age of Conan)
Unrated: sale allowed to adults (ages 18 and above), can get put on the Index (e.g. any game imported from abroad, all publishers have their German releases rated)
On Index: sale allowed to adults (ages 18 and above), no ads, no putting the game on store shelves (e.g. international version of Counterstrike after Erfurt shooting, almost everything by id software)
In violation of criminal law: no selling, no buying, basically no anything besides owning (e.g. Manhunt for violence, Wolfenstein games for nazi signs)

Additionally, a lot of things rated by the USK before the new law of 2002 is effectively unrated. I don't know why, I suppose, you had to apply to get your game rerated, but this led to "adults only" Barbie pony games.

It's a German law, I hope, noone expected it to be simple.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

I though games with nazi signs were forbidden for ownership as well. Hmmm I learned something new today.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

It sounds like the Germans are afraid of starting/being blamed for WWIII (seeing as how the were blamed for the last two). So they are going after everything that could possibly influence a person to become a violent maniac no matter how  harmless the form of media. But that's if we ever have a WWIII.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Germany has nothing to worry about. Iran is going to beat them to it.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Frankly, all the major starters of WWI were being complete idiots, and I lay the blame mostly on Austria, Russia and Germany...

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

didn't they learn from Hitler that book burning was bad, too?  because that's what they're doing.

Here are we -- and yonder yawns the universe.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

"In response to the [2006 Emsdetten school] shooting, the German states of Bavaria and Lower Saxony drafted legislation that would fine and possibly jail video game developers who create and market games containing ‘cruel violence on humans or human-looking characters...’"

Didn't gamepolitics all ready cover this? I remember hearing that a famous developer threatened to leave Germany if the law passed.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Wow, one commy thing for another...

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

So THAT'S why they won't take a more aggressive stance against the Islamic facists!It explains a bunch,what with the whole pacifism thing forming a cornerstone and shit.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

The reason they won't take a more aggressive stance on the Middle East is because they're not morons.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Yes they are.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

The whole reason the Emsdetten incident occured is that the gunman, Sebatian Bosse (alias: ResistantX), was bullied and humiliated by the 'cool' kids. More is said in his last video, which was recorded 2 days before his assualt.

Here is a link to the vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ciQMsz1LsE

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

Games is the child of litterature and media, it's an artform. You do not censor art or change it in any ways because then the message that lies within the masterpiece may be altered or lost. If they put cyborg infront of every name in a game, they might as well put cyborg in front of every name in every book ever written, the violation is the same, the message is lost.

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained
Hey here is an idea STOP GOING AROUND TRYING TO BAN ANYTHING THAT REMINDS THEM OF THE NATZI AGE!!! Instead, perhaps use Videogames as a reflection of how horrible war really is. And use these games as discussion of themes in high Schools so students will have their say on if they feel these games should be either banned or used to remind people of horrible things that have happened in the world and reflect on those issues.
Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

I think some restriccions are necessary in every society. And Germany is a very peacefull country, so they are doing a good job

Re: German Video Game Laws Explained

I'm all for freedom of ttnet vitamin speech and allowing rent a car game makers to put whatever they want in games, but there's one thing about this app that has me scratching my head.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but from araç kiralama the previous article araba kiralama on this I gathered that players can use Google maps in-game to find the other (real-life?) dealers in their area.  If this is the case, has travesti anyone considered what's stopping someone from using this app to actually move drugs between hands for reals?

But majority araba kiralama of their outrage araç kiralama stems from what it could DO TO children, not the content itself.  Talk to one of these people and you'll find they don't think any books kiralık araba should be banned from children.  Mention American Psycho and they talk about kiralık araç the redeeming value of using imagination to construct a story.  Reading, no matter what the content, is largely viewed as a consequenceless activity for people of any age.  The reason why I mention American Psycho is because of the content itself.  Gaming never has and likely never will have any scenes where someone has sex with a severed head.  Not gonna happen.  Yet despite this, they'll fight tooth and nail to protect their children from two boys kissing in Bully but whatever they read is harmless... yeah.

The entire arguement is kiralık oto based upon a social normality inflicted by luddites who can't figure out the controls for Halo so it's frightening and terrifying and obviously the cause of youth violence on the rise even though, in reality, it's in decline (which is actually a HUGE suprise given minibüs kiralama the economies status).  In  a perfect world, we would have parents that actually parent.  The idea of sales restrictions on media on oto kiralama any form to accomidate parental unwillingness to get involved with their child's life is the real problem to me.  Here I am, 32 years old, and being held up at a self-scan rent a car needing to show ID before I can buy a $10 M rated game all because Soccer Momthra can't be bothered to look at the crap Billy Genericallystupidson does in his free time.  It's too hard for her, so I have to suffer?

GamePolitics ShoutBox

Posted 02/09/10 at 01:18pm
Valdearg: I do agree that it shouldn't be legal. That's for sure.
Posted 02/09/10 at 01:16pm
Andrew Eisen: Shouldn't be. Spirit of anti-discrimination laws would seem to include sexual orientation (and eye color). Plus there's always equal protection and such. Never know until you try.
Posted 02/09/10 at 01:14pm
Valdearg: @AE: Doubtful. Again, it's perfectly legal.
Posted 02/09/10 at 01:10pm
Andrew Eisen: Should have sued (unless that wasn't an option given her financial situation or something). Might have won.
Posted 02/09/10 at 01:00pm
Valdearg: Story about a Male to Female TG who was expressly told she wouldn't be given a job because she was TG. Its not the main point of the story, but explicit, perfectly legal discrimination like this exists.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:53pm
Valdearg: Lol, I don't know. It may very well be legal to do so. Though that might able to fall under the "race" restriction, depending on how that point is argued.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:51pm
Valdearg: I don't think they do have any legal recourse. I'll have to dig around, but I seriously believe that if the law doesn't specifically mention Sexual Orientation or Gender Identity, they can still be discriminated against in those 29 states.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:51pm
Andrew Eisen: Eye color isn't covered either but I doubt it would be considered legal to refuse to hire people with green eyes.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:48pm
Andrew Eisen: My explanation is longer than the Shoutbox will allow. Suffice to say that while those who are discriminated against do have legal recourse, anti-discrimination law should specifically cite sexual orientation so that there’s no question about it.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:42pm
Valdearg: "There is no federal law that consistently protects LGBT individuals from employment discrimination; it remains legal in 29 states, and in 38 states to do so based on gender identity or expression." From the Human Rights Campaign.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:40pm
Valdearg: @AE: Why don't you think I'm correct? I know Wiki could be flawed, but as far as it says, its up to date as of June 2009.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:39pm
Andrew Eisen: I don't think you're right but I really don't know and don't have the time to find out. However things actually are, it's very clear how they actually should be.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:34pm
Valdearg: "just because there's no specific state level protection for it, doesn't make discrimination right or legal." I would disagree. If there's no laws against it, it makes it perfectly legal. It's definitely not right, but perfectly legal to do.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:33pm
Valdearg: Meaning in 29 states, private sector discrimination against gays is perfectly legal.. Sickening.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:33pm
Valdearg: 19 states have no protections, and another 10 only have protections for public sector jobs.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:32pm
Andrew Eisen: Well, most businesses have equal rights policies in place and just because there's no specific state level protection for it, doesn't make discrimination right or legal. Still, no argument against adding such protections.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:28pm
Valdearg: More information. Apparently, it's worse than I actually thought.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:28pm
Valdearg: Check the link. Apparently, its more like 20 states that have no protections.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:26pm
Andrew Eisen: In the US? Not that I'm aware of. Sad if true.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:25pm
Valdearg: @AE: Actually, I think, at least for now, businesses can still discriminate against gays in a few states.. Something like 5 or 8. Its part of why Gay Rights Advocates are in support of the Employee Nondiscrimination Act, or ENDA.
Login or register to post shouts