Militant Atheists Upset Over Spore, Says Will Wright
Militant Atheists Upset Over Spore, Says Will Wright
August 14, 2008
Spore designer and self-described atheist Will Wright told Eurogamer that "militant atheists" are upset with certain religious aspects of the game:
[With Spore] we didn't want to go too far down that [creationism] path: we leave the whole creation of the universe question open. Obviously as the player you're coming in and playing something like a god, directing the evolution of a species, but we never really state who you the player are...
our bigger fear was that we didn't want to offend any religious people; but looking at the discussion that unfolded from this thing, what we had was a good sizeable group of players that we might call militant atheists, and the rest of the players seemed very tolerant, including all of the religious players...
But so far I've had no critical feedback at all from anybody who is religious feeling that we were misrepresenting religion or it was bad to represent religion in the game. It was really the atheists!
As GameDaily notes:
Religion briefly makes an appearance during parts of the game's civilization phase. That said, it's never made explicitly clear if God or some other force or entity is in control of the universe.
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Posted 07/04/09 at 01:18pm
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Andrew Eisen: Rodrigo - A fun idea but you might want to fix the typos.
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Yuuri: Happy Blow Crap Up Day!
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Rodrigo Ybáñez García: I designed this shirt for Jack debate today: http://i44.tinypic.com/2552t89.jpg
Posted 07/04/09 at 11:06am
BearDogg-X: There's a one minute and a half preview of the video game episode of Penn & Teller: Bullshit! up at http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/home.do
BearDogg-X: There's a one minute and a half preview of the video game episode of Penn & Teller: Bullshit! up at http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/home.do
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Arcanagos: Happy 4th all
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Firebird: Greetings GP community, and HAPPY 4th of JULY!!!
Firebird: Greetings GP community, and HAPPY 4th of JULY!!!
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Michael Chandra: I missed out on Jack? =(
Michael Chandra: I missed out on Jack? =(
Posted 07/04/09 at 01:52am
Escanor94: hmm, looks like when someone gets banned all their comments are automaticly deleted
Escanor94: hmm, looks like when someone gets banned all their comments are automaticly deleted
Posted 07/03/09 at 11:46pm
Arcanagos: aww, did i miss the JT party? :(
Arcanagos: aww, did i miss the JT party? :(
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Leet Gamer Jargon: Where's the recent JT bullcrap? Which comments section has he vomited on? EDIT: Nevermind; it's in the "Radio" thread.
Leet Gamer Jargon: Where's the recent JT bullcrap? Which comments section has he vomited on? EDIT: Nevermind; it's in the "Radio" thread.
Posted 07/03/09 at 09:17pm
BearDogg-X: I wonder what the Metropolitian Moron of Miami said in response to my comment saying that he got a dose of his medicine on the SGC09 Debate thread?
BearDogg-X: I wonder what the Metropolitian Moron of Miami said in response to my comment saying that he got a dose of his medicine on the SGC09 Debate thread?
Posted 07/03/09 at 06:51pm
Rodrigo Ybáñez García: He gets offended with a bunch of flowers.
Rodrigo Ybáñez García: He gets offended with a bunch of flowers.
Posted 07/03/09 at 06:49pm
GoodRobotUs: LOL He takes offence at the fact he might have *chosen* to be crazy?
GoodRobotUs: LOL He takes offence at the fact he might have *chosen* to be crazy?
Posted 07/03/09 at 06:47pm
Rodrigo Ybáñez García: He warned me to get a lawyer after I called him "crazy by his own choice"... that´s libel for him
Rodrigo Ybáñez García: He warned me to get a lawyer after I called him "crazy by his own choice"... that´s libel for him
Posted 07/03/09 at 06:45pm
HilaryDuffGta: "libel" what did he threaten now?
HilaryDuffGta: "libel" what did he threaten now?
Posted 07/03/09 at 06:44pm
Rodrigo Ybáñez García: Was fun to be threatened for "libel" again.
Rodrigo Ybáñez García: Was fun to be threatened for "libel" again.
Posted 07/03/09 at 06:26pm
HilaryDuffGta: hey so what did i miss??? the usual spam of "crap"
HilaryDuffGta: hey so what did i miss??? the usual spam of "crap"
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FlakAttack: Jack ruined his chance to have civil debates with us here. Glad you banned him (again).
FlakAttack: Jack ruined his chance to have civil debates with us here. Glad you banned him (again).
Posted 07/03/09 at 04:04pm
Krono: Unexpected is probably the best word to describe it. Particularly as no decent reason is given.
Krono: Unexpected is probably the best word to describe it. Particularly as no decent reason is given.
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Comments
Err so why are these militant atheists upset?
The same reason most people get overly hostile and defensive about certain subjects - perhaps they aren't so sure they are right. Typically that reaction shows a lack of confidence.
The player helps these organism grow and evolve. The atheists aren't happy about the "divine implications" of who the player is supposed to be (although it's never stated in the game whether you're playing "God"). Evolution is supposed to be an entirely natural process. It allows for God's existence, but doesn't require it. So, thanks to evolution, we would have formed with or without Him; we don't need Him, nor do we own Him anything. The atheists are saying that Spore implies that evolution is miraculous, and requires a deity.
If you haven't noticed, I'm a bit of a creationist, but I don't mind movies and games about evolution. I just consider it part of the fiction. But Kudos to Maxis for consider our feelings. That means a lot.
Really? Oh come on how many God games have there been before spore? And considering all the weird and exoctic creatures you can make (sporn not whistanding) I doubt anyone will consider this game realistic.
I'd love to say that the guys are complaining over something very minor but it seems so trivial that a part of me has trouble believing that they are actually complaining about this (or that if they are complaining about it it's only on the level of minor grumbling and we're taking it too seriously).
I am an atheist and I'm not sure anybody is angry about his game at all. Thats like me going on T.V. and saying that all the black people ever born will be offended by my plain solid white tshirt. Not only werent they offended by my shirt, but now they are offended by me singling them out and saying they are militant pricks who will jump on anything to make an argument.
The problem is not of today, but more of when people will get used to thinking that , yeah maybe a concept that works in game must have come from something tangible. in other words, getting people to think that its logical, ok and hell, real! Im not against spore, but i can see the concerns
Dear militant atheists.... QFT and GTFO... go protest a church somewhere and for God's sake please let us atheists have some dignity left when we talk to our super religious friends.
Darn athesists - always with their logic, evidence and scientific method...
Clearly logic isn't coming in to this if atheists are getting offended by the mere mention of religion in a game.
Like it or not, historically religion has influenced a lot of the direction a civilisation takes (debating for better or worse is a different subject), so getting offended it's included is an awful lot like peace protestors getting offended that there are wars.
Disclaimer: I don't believe in God, but I'm not an atheist.
---
"I'm busting chops today. You can ask anyone."
Oy gevult, I was just kidding.
-- teh moominz --
Apologies, then - I have a couple of militant atheist friends and I seem to have this conversation every other day :/
---
"I'm busting chops today. You can ask anyone."
Just like Christians, atheists have those that are extra vocal that make the others look bad....I'm what they would call an agnostic athiest. I don't know whether or not god exists, and since there is no real evidence that god exists, I choose to not believe in god. It's not that I believe god doesn't exist, I just don't believe he does. It's because I believe in science, logic, etc etc yada yada, but I try to not shove it into my non-athiest friends.
"It's not that I believe god doesn't exist, I just don't believe he does."
Unless you mean that in a 'how can you be sure you exist' sort of way I don't see how that makes any sense. Either he does exist or he doesn't. If you're unsure that's fine.
I beleive he was trying to put forth a standard agnostic athiest beleif system which is "I can't be sure there's no god, but it's pretty likely there isn't one". I have it on good authority there is no god.
When good things stop happening to me and bad things stop happening to all the innocent victims in the world then there might be a god. That is my good authority. I do bad things and good things keep coming my way. I may pay in the end when I am dead and rotting in the ground but my fate will be the same as all the good people. Ain't life a stinkah?
No Offense there Jab49, cuz I really don't mean none just pointing it out...there ain't no good authority that says there is no god...cuz where I stand...there is one...cuz I don't believe coincidence is the reason I'm still alive after the shit I've gone through in my life...it's everyone elses porogative to believe what they will but only a truely ignorant person...would say I have it on good authority...because when it comes to religion and personal belief or anything of this nature there is no good authority...it doesn't exist plain and simple because this is above us, we won't know till we die..at which point we can't turn around and go "Hey guys! He does/doesn't exist!" It's not possible so it's a ludecris statement...
and no I don't care about my spelling, I know where my faults are doesn't make my words any less or more intellegent.
You do? What is this authority you speak of?
Can't be science. Science is ill-equiped to deal with anything beyond "physical" matter.
I wish people would stop confusing science as some great "godish" tool that is NOT limited by the people utilising the idea.
Isnt an atheist by definition somebody who denies the existence of god? :)
Add militant in frotn fo any group, and you can pretty much write off their complaints
I wonder how hard is it for them, to, you know, ignore the game if they don't like it.
And you could most certainly say GamePolitics is the meeting place for militant gamers.
i lol'd
I'm a politically militant gamer and proud of it! Thanks in part to GP.
Meeting place for militant gamers... sounds an awful lot like the preview of JT's next letter, to me!
Oh lord, don't give him any ideas! D:
Its called a temporary suspension of disbelief; just because I watch a movie about vampires doesn't mean I suddenly think they exist. The same with Spore, just because I play as a god that doesn't mean I think he exists. Its all just entertainment.
Exactly. Just because I play a God game doesn't mean I think you should all bow down and worship me (for that reason; You should bow down and worship me!).
This.
Also an old saying: "If everyone likes you all the time then you are not doing your job"
Because the presence of a god (possibly you) would make the game creationism (evolution driven by a higher being). Supposedly this is what those militant atheists are upset about.
I think it's not entirely fair to call it creationism, though, since a gamer is always in some sort of control of the game, thereby being godlike from the game's perspective. And of course, if you couldnt steer the direction of evolution, it wouldnt be such a compelling game.
I didnt know atheists could be millitant, by the way... what a world.
It's absolutely possible for athiests to be militant. Remember that Karl Marx was a hardcore athiest yet preached organized and violent mass revolution as the path to progress. His followers caused a death toll that makes the crusades and inquistion combined look like a playground argument.
(meh)
Point is, anything taken to an extreme is harmful to society, look at the militant Muslims over in the middle east! Look at Iran (although, I'm not sure if Iran's crap is politically or religiously driven, anyone know?)
Fairly sure it's a mix of politics, local/tribal culture and religion.
Those three are behind a lot of things...for better or worse.
the communist revolution is hardly comporable to the crusades. The crusades were a random incursion by one religion onto another for no good reason. The Marxist revolution was an assault on an unfair monarchy, also it had absolutely nothing to do with him being an athiest. A "Militant Athiest" is someone who's militant about being an athiest, marx is more of an Athiest Militant, your analogy doesn't work.
The crusades were the European Christian response to the encroaching Muslim Ottoman empire. It was neither random not unjustified, and it was as political (Empire-building and the subsequent retaliation) as it was religious. One might even argue that without the crusades, the religious history of Eastern Europe would be very different indeed. Not an aspect of history to write off like that.
You can be militant about any subject.
Seriously, what happened to all the real problems in the world?
Like fucking war, rape, murder and child abuse?
Or famine, disease and drought?
How about people too fucking poor to get electricity let alone worry how their fucking atheism is supposedly being run down by a fucking game...
I use excessive language because quite frankly this whole fucking mess has just driven me batty at this point. We have lesbo feminists getting irate about Fat fucking Princess when there are plenty of other feminist issues effecting real people going on. We have black activists losing their fucking minds over Resident Evil 5 when racism is still alive and kicking on all sides of the colour divide. We have the Christians who split off in so many directions we don't even know what they are bitching about anymore, we just know they don't like it...
And now we have the atheists, who don't actually believe in much of anything, bitching because a game somehow denigrates their... lack of beliefs?
Seriously, wake the fuck up you goddamned (err, deityirefusetoacknowledge-damned?) morons, get your heads out of your asses and go fix a real fucking problem rather than playing pretend-activist by bitching at every new game that comes along.. It's VIRTUAL reality (which I guess makes your cause virtually relevant...)
FUCK.
Amen.
Seriously, what do we have to do to have fun on this planet anymore? If a game this fun pisses off ATHEISTS, I want to see how fun a game would be when it mocks every ethnicity on this planet.
So, you're complaining about people complaining about trivial things?
I know the irony is fairly obvious, but it doesn't make it any less fun to point out. Don't you have real problems to solve other than ranting about other people not solving problems?
Me? I just like to ramble on pointlessly on internet forums, so I'm right in my element here.
q[So, you're complaining about people complaining about trivial things?]q
No, I'm complaining about people wasting time trying to fix virtual problems... =)
q[I know the irony is fairly obvious, but it doesn't make it any less fun to point out. Don't you have real problems to solve other than ranting about other people not solving problems?]q
You think millions of dollars and thousands of man hours being flushed down the tubes trying to legislate morality in a virtual world isn't a real problem?
I think you need to find out what irony means... =)
You are great!! I could not have aid this better myself.
Child abuse? THink catholic priests
famine, disease and drought? could be tackled with science if given proper backing and financing. Anybody thinking that stem cells have a future? WHy is CHINA, korea etc in front of US in stem cell research??
I would describe myself as an atheist with strong convictions and I can't imagine how anyone could have a problem with Spore without reverting to the sort of divisive, absolutist school of thought so common in large religions. That being said... We're atheist so no one of us is going to tell another how we should stand on a position.
The bottom line is Spore is not just a great game but a great piece of fiction, which seems to make it perfectly suited to include religion.
I'm also an atheist and I agree. Will Wright has stirred up nothing but trouble by bringing this up. It was a tiny, tiny minority who somehow got offended at the idea that a simulation of life should contain religion.
And now on every message board or forum I go on I have to post "well I'm an atheist and it doesn't offend me" every 10 minutes. Thanks Will. Thanks a bunch.
What Haggard said.
Having a problem with Spore is just silly. It wouldn't be very fun without a higher being (that is, YOU.) controlling things. You'd just have to sit and watch, doing nothing.
I find it funny that you have to bring that up. As a Christian it seems that on a daily basis I have to say "I am a Christian and don't feel the same way about said psycho Christian ranting about games."
I think that happens more often to Christian gamers.
So what is the problem?
E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
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In other news, every shape, form and school of belief - even those that don't actually believe in anything - have their fair share of extraordinarily intolerant and loudmouthed IDIOTS ruining it for the rest of them...
Much like the guys mentioned who complained about Spore! :D
(This message has been approved by the atheist who wrote it. ;D )
Too true. :/
And in other news the sky is blue, the sun rose in the east today, and Jack Thompson doesn't like Rockstar games.
If fundamentalist christian have a right to complain about violence in games, how about equal rights for those atheist?Its not like those atheist will petition and get in touch with their republican senator to try to ban those games. Its just about raising the point, no?
I suppose you're right. Still, the people who go "damn atheists/christians, complaining about everything!" are likely to be the people who hold that view no matter what. Maybe we should just give up trying to be a calm voice of peace and accept that the extremists on both sides will argue about what the extremists on the other side are saying.
...humans are a rubbish species -_-
I'm a Heliolater but still technically an Athiest since I still don't believe the Sun is actually a god. I don't understand how someone would get pissed off at Spore. That said I also don't think nasty posts on a internet community would legitimately qualify these individuals as "Militant Athiests".
I should also mention that Spore in for the form of the creature creator doesnt make sense as a game describing the phenomenon of evolution. How so? Well go on youtube and check out some of the creations. Most of them probably couldn't ever exist in nature. So considering that fact I believe the game from a design standpoint makes more sense from a creationists view since both Spore and Creationism don't really make sense in terms of science.
It's not like religion is a very big part of Spore.
I love the way everyone over reacts on here, they probably had a range of people with diferent ideolegies on their Q&A panel for the purpose of finding any hot potato issues, its hardly as if the atheists are sending Will Wright death threats.
If the people commenting on this are militant atheists then most of you on here are militant gamers.
LOL Militant gamers sounds about right.
Seriously, does anyone know what the real issues were? If this was just the result of a big focus test some negative comment was bound to occur... it's not as if we're talking mass protest and effigy burning here.
Gift.
Don't mind the atheists.. I just think it's part of who they are to sound off on touchy subjects.
*Ahem* I'm slightly offended by this post yadda yadda yadda, people of any category can sound off on touchy subjects etc etc please vacate yourself from the internet kthxbai
Well, quite simply, religion is something that I think any intelligent, self-aware group of beings would develop. Whether it be some kind of mysticism, a polytheistic religion, or a monothesism, or even a non-deity Nature based (er, then again, Nature might be considered as the deity) religion. It simply comes with intelligence, because there becomes a new-found curiosity that other animals of lower intelligence do not process. Religion and philosophy would be bound to develop at some point. And the fact these athiests are getting all upset about it, well, too bad. Intelligence brings new ideas, and questions about the processes of nature, and new beings (like, for example, early humans) would not understand enough to, say, look at their sun and one day and come to the conclusion "Hm, the sun is a ball of nuclear energy and plasma, supporting a large gravitational field upon which all satellite planets revolve around, which rotates as the star which is said sun pulls it around itself, creating the seasons, days, and years."
Agreed and disagreed. Religion hardly begs for questions. Religion and god 'answers'. And to heed the words of elie wiesel 84 nobel prize winner " i dont believe in fanatics as they only have answers, and no questions" If you ask no questions, wheres the progress in that>?
Perhaps Nintendo was right all thos years ago. to block the release of certain games in the US because they had to strong of a religious overtone. We sure don't want to offend people who feel that religion should be removed from public education and fiction.
All media should not include any reference to anything religious.
@ Dalvros
You are probably right about the focus group or survey. That is what it sounded like to me. They had a bunch of people tell them what they thought about the game and the "militant atheists" were the group most offended by the content.
E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091
I hope that was cynicism because it's probably in the top ten worst ideas known to man. People need to be offended; it's the only way they're exposed to new ideas and ways of thinking. Some people are offended by religion, others by sex in the media, still others by video games, but we can't get rid of any of them. If you don't like religion, avoid it. Or better yet, expose yourself to it, get offended, and then learn something that will broaden your mind. A little bit of knowledge and tolerance doesn't hurt.
"We sure don't want to offend people who feel that religion should be removed from public education and fiction"
Public education I've seen but I've never seen anyone want to remove it from fiction. I'm not even sure those people exist.
Actually, Narnia has gotten ripped into by atheists who don't like the religious aspects of it. There's always someone that wants to control what goes into print. Sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad, this is pretty much the same thing all over again.
What real non-story this is.
Don't like it? Make your own site. I hate it when people have nothing to say but bs like "why is this news" and "how is this a story" or what you said, "non-story." I think it's a story, I like to read about it, and it's not even your site to run.
Oh spare me your sanctimonious posturing, I was just making a comment, not even a flame-style one.
Are people not allowed to criticise GP anymore?
Like I said earlier in regards to the little flap over the depiction of DC in Fallout 3, it's gotten to the point where it feels like you can't make anything anymore without upsetting somebody. First the Metally Retarded groups (oh, I'm sorry, it's Mental Disabilities!) groups get their panties in a wad over Tropic Thunder, and now this.
Whatever happened to just having a sense of humor or the philosophy of "Live and let live?"
If there are Militiant Atheists, I have to wonder if there are Militant Agnostics, too? What would they go around saying? "I don't know and you don't either!"
"First the Metally Retarded groups (oh, I'm sorry, it's Mental Disabilities!)"
No you mean mentally retarded. Mental Disabilities groups are the people who complained about Manhunt 2 because they thought it protrayed people with mental illnesses as being very violent. To be perfectly frank I have more sympathy for what they are trying to accomplish then what the mental retardation groups are trying to do (plus their criticism of manhunt 2 seemed more valid than that of the mental retardation groups).
Well, look on the bright side... at least it's not the mega Catholics who go around burning ANYTHING that conflicts with their personal beliefs.
---You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.
Interestingly, there's no indication where this criticism is actually coming from. Wright points to no particular quotation or message board, and I haven't seen any links to any in the stories that have come out on this topic. I tend to think there is no controversy, despite Wright's discomfiture.
Ok, I call bullshit. Can Will Wright give us a single example of an atheist whose actually upset at spore? It seems to me that this is really just him spouting off against "militant atheists."
Speaking of which, what exactly is a militant atheist. Something tells me we aren't talking about the tamil tigers here. I bet in actuality he's referring to someone who is just especially vocal and "uppity" about being an atheist. Frankly, I think Will Wright, is just a giant asshole.
For the record, I am an athiest, and I have no problem whatsoever with religion being in Spore or any other game. Frankly I think it can make for some pretty compelling stories and gameplay mechanics. I just don't happen to believe that any of it is true in reality.
After doing some research, I have to agree. There was nowhere that he quoted these people, and I would have to say it is a fails claim. Due to the lack of controversy, it wouldn't be a bad press stunt, but an immoral one.
I say give us proof or an example, or don't say anything about it at all. I am going to look into this more, but wouldn't doubt if EA's ways have corrupted him into dirty ways.
Will Wright describes himself as an atheist too. I don't think he is trying to discredit atheists. I believe him, its probably some idiot in the testing group who got riled up about this.
Or someone in the test group that just doesn't like EA. Who could blame the guy then, he is only logical.
This seems pretty oxymoronic. Militant Atheists and Atheists again evolution based game... Are they upset that the game isn't pissing off other religions? Is this another EA press stunt? (Who in the hell here wouldnt doubt that bullshit after EA paid the guy from id who knows how much to act like he doesn't still believe that EA is an 'Evil Empire' and other people talking nice with EA staff right next to them at E3.)
I'm an atheist and I'm a douchebag who has no friends
I fear only the latter is true.
Ugh, you can't make a game without pissing someone off it seems. Oh well, I got my Spore on reserve and intend on playing the hell out of it.
"I say give us proof or an example, or don't say anything about it at all. I am going to look into this more, but wouldn't doubt if EA's ways have corrupted him into dirty ways."
This wouldn't be to surprising though since EA does tend to have that effect on people who work for them.
Dear Will Wright. Nobody gives a shit about your little game. There was never any "Militant Atheism" because nobody gives a shit. And just to be fair, nobody really gave a shit about "Left Behind:The Game" either. This is just a lame attempt to stir up a bit of controversy to sell your quaint little game. Go fuck yourself for trying to usurp peoples emotions in such a manner. How many PR people did it take to come up with this little gem?
BAWAHAHAHAH, nobody gives a shit about Spore eh? Heh, thats why theres nearly 3 million creatures made on the Sporepedia.
Hrm. Methinks this isn't the place for game reviews. Not that your post there really would count as one... More like a rant from some butthurt kid.
Aw....are we going to have to call the WAMBULANCE? Did Will Wright hurt you as a child? It's okay, you can tell me. He did? Okay now, just point on the doll where he touched you. Aw...Shush Shhhh....it's all gonna be okay.
Submitted by macthorpe - August 14, 2008 at 4:28 am -0500
"Disclaimer: I don't believe in God, but I'm not an atheist."
Yes macthorpe, you are an atheist if you dont believe in god. Thats what being an atheist means..
Although, you DO realize there are religions that do NOT believe in a Christian god, or any real kind of deity?
@Nekowulf,
Nope. Not unless you start describing things like Buddism as a religion, which its really not.
Uh. Yes. Nature based faiths, for example, do not need deities. A deity is defined some kind of god. Nature, as a force, does not necessarily mean it is a god or a goddess, rather, just a force, though powerful. While yes, we MAY have deities, it is more of a personal choice, and not necessary. But even then, they can be merely representative rather than an actual supreme being.
Hence, you can have religion without a "god" or a "goddess," and have it based more on a force, and not some being.
Not to mention he could easily be an agnostic. They don't believe in God but they never deny he could exist. Some people only see in black and white though, no middle ground for them...
That's why agnosticism makes sense. You can't prove that god doesn't exist just like you can't prove he does, so why not just stay the hell outta the argument and just say "idk."
Dawkins would say it's an improper response as it gives equal credence to the existance and non-existance of god, when evidence (or lack thereof) may be said to favour one side over another.
-- teh moominz --
Atheism is still the non-belief/rejection (delete as appropriate) of the existence of gods. If you say "I don't believe in god" then you are saying "I am an atheist." What other beliefs you hold, from whether you believe in a natural force behind the universe to your favourite type of deli meat, are left unstated.
Back on topic though, Spore is a game about developing life and controlling its future. It's a god game practically by definition. As someone else stated above though, I've played games where I control immortal fighters and sentient unmanned spaceships, and they didn't exactly test my lack of faith in those concepts.
You seem to be ignoring the rather large middle ground of being agnostic.
I do so love sound bites and inflammatory titles that may have nothing to actually do with those they are being used against.
"...we might call militant atheists, "
Ok, so WHY are they "militant"?
Ok, so pulling up "militant" under Wikipedia actually includes verbal violence. They even use, as examples, the term "militant Atheist", as well as "militant Christian".
Still, I'd like to know HOW the specific individuals in this case go from being mere Atheists to Militant Atheists.
The fact is, to me, this is a game. Fantasy. Fiction. So, I actually see a contridiction in the argument. If Atheists don't believe in a Supreme Being, then they must believe that those who do believe in such a being must be believing in a fantasy or a fiction. So why would it be wrong to depict a Supreme Being in a fictional setting as a fictional being as opposed to real religion, which presents a fictional being as a real being?
But, at the same time, I can see the irony. There are those who oppose video games, and many, not all but many, use religion as their foundation claiming that the fictional settings of video games will have an effect on the player and will lead to real world bad acts. Well, now someone is claiming that fictional religion could lead to real world religious beliefs.
Somehow, hilarity has been had and continues to provide a great deal of laughter. :D
nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl
Spore doesn't have enough flying spaghetti monsters of invisible pink unicorns in it...however, I suppose you could make some.
There are already a load of Flying Spaghetti Monsters made. ^^ A few are rather good, too.
What would it be called if you considered yourself spiritual, not religious?
Oh, and militant gamers ftw. :P
I think it'd depend on your definition of spiritual.
Spiritual as in, there's more to the world than just what the eye can see. One can affect the world through means other than just brute action. You have essence beyond your body. Like that... What would that be called?
Non-Religious Agnostic.
Yes, one can be spiritual and even have Faith without following or even believing in a Supreme Being.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl
I think that comes more under being philosophical.
Well haven't read through the whole thing but i think this Wiki page might give you a few answers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality
Answer: a fucking hippy, that's what.
Bloody New Agers, I dunno...
PS: This too, is not meant to be taken seriously.
-- teh moominz --
Yeeaa, maann. That's so groovy.
... Not like a hippy. :P
I see Pandralisk was invited to the Spore focus-group.
-- teh moominz --
Yeah...Don't bring him up.
E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091
Oh you gotta admit, his take on this would certainly be chuckle-worthy...
... quickly followed by becoming offensive.
-- teh moominz --
Yes, but the lulz factor would be far out weighed by the head desk factor.
E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091
oh i got it!!! debate on this between pandra and jt (we can give the money from this to charity)
That kind of debate would be sooo awesome. What ever happened to Pandralisk anyways? I remember him from, what, a year ago or something?
He was banned for getting out of hand with his anti-religious drivel.
E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091
I'm an atheist and take absolutely offense to the game. I'm not sure why anyone would. First, the game doesn't ncessarily suggest there is a god within the game world. Second, this is a universe created for the game; it need not relate to our universe in any way. To take offense is to show an incredible amount of ignorance.
It's not meant to be a dead-on accurate simulation of how our universe works. For a program like that you'd need it to run on a thousand supercomputers and with terabytes of data.
Someone mentioned before that it requires suspension of disbelief. That's what's missing from these militant atheists. It's the same exact situation with militant Christians complaining about magic and witchcraft in books and games- only now we're dealing with atheists.
I think Spore could be interpreted in a number of different ways - wouldn't it be accurate to say that maybe, instead of the part of a God, you're playing the part of a scientist?
Think about it - you're creating living beings and exposing them to different stimuli; the world of Spore is one gigantic science experiment. It's a lab! You can try to develop theories based on your observations of the creatures' interactions, or see how certain aspects of your creatures effect it's environment; even directly effect how creatures grow and adapt!
I'm not an Athiest, but I'm not seeing how this could offend them. If they really are offended, though, they could always just not play it. However, I think that if some of them picked up the controller, they may actually enjoy it.
This REALLY sounds like manufactured (or at least exagerated) controversy.
It demonstrates a couple points though: every group of people with a common opinion are bound to have some idiots, and other lend too much credence or commentary to fringe vocal minorities.
It's a video game, who cares. Deus Ex Video Game is a bit of a reach.
I am a militant atheist. I am offended by Spore.
Wait, no, I'm offended by the copy protection on Spore.
The game itself, BFD. Regardless of your opinion on religion, it has had and continues to have influence. If you want to simulate the growth of a culture, it needs to be included.
As for the creatures needing a creator, yeah, so? Can you imagine how these things would evolve? The whole point of this game is to be the creator. I will repeat the mantra "it's just a game". Don't like it? Don't play it.
As has been said earlier, it's all about suspension of disbelief. I have played games with religious content (the disclaimer at the beginning of Assassin's Creed just annoys me however), and I won't play games that preach at me. I don't agree with religion, and I don't believe in gods, but that doesn't keep me from playing games with/about either. I also don't believe in a prince that rewinds time and I like Braid and Prince of Persia.
Yeah, the thing people should be offended about Spore is that peice of trash called SecuRom, now thats something to be offended by.
Amen to that!
Gift.
Where were these militant atheists at when Black & White, or Black & White II were released?
Sheesh... It doesn't matter what beliefs, philosophies, or *fill in the blanks*... Someone will horrifically misrepresent that position and draw attention to it. The bad thing is more often than not, those who misrepresent it, and stand out, end up setting the popular opinion about people who have the same beliefs (and aren't misrepresenting it).
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
This is really not the controversy that a lot of gaming blogs are making it out to be.
I know what Will Wright is referring to. On EA's Spore forum, there was a very lengthy topic. In Spore, depending on what strategy you take, you gain new abilities at every stage. If you choose the religious rout, you gain powers that appear to be religious miracles. This is what people were taking offense to, not the inclusion of religion, but these fantasy based powers.
There is no group of atheists who are opposing Spore or anything. This was a group of Spore fans who felt that Spore was drifting away from its core concept, and discussed it on the internet. The gaming press has really been making it out to be more than it really is. It's not like Will Wright is receiving death threats from Richard Dawkins or anything.
So it's really just a group of people on the internet arguing about features in a video game that isn't released yet. Doesn't really make for a compelling controversy. Maybe if we could find someone appearing on CNN, declaring Spore an "Ignorance Simulator" due to its inclusion of religion, or something of that nature. ;)
I wish this was at the top of the comments thread, and somebody would look into it and see if it's the real cause of all this crap.
If that's true it'd be nice if Will Wright would come out and say his statements were taken out of context or what have you. Unless he misunderstood things himself.
Btw Sai, have you ever played Guild Wars and had anything to do with the [DVDF] alliance? Just I've not seen many other people go by the online name Sai.
Hell is for belivers and religion is what yuo make of it, as is the news it seems.........
I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
(in need of a bad overhaul)
In my opinion the fanatical militant atheists are more annoying, negative, pessimistic and all around assholish then the very religious types. The very religious types beliefs might seem a little crazy but at least they tend to be rather nice when debating other then the fanatheists who happen to scream "If you believe in God you're a sheep and/or retard" or "Opiate of the masses" at the mere mention of God or religion coming up.
OMG, generalisations FTW!
This may reflect your own experiences, but let me assure you the opposite can also be said to be true.
-- teh moominz --
Notice how I said fanatical militant atheists, I'm not refering to all atheists. Actually maybe I should have said anti-theists instead.
Not a creationist at all but I don't know how exciting the athiest version of spore would be lol
Atheist version of Spore: A computer capable of playing Spore self-constructs itself out of nothingness. Eons later random bits of data form into a game called Spore. The game starts itself and a character race is created by random choices. Further randomness continues. No outside source or force involved.
Evolution doesn't work on 'constructing random stuff out of nothingness', it's never been advertised as such by anyone except those who want a nice soundbite to attack Evolution with.
It doesn't work that way. It does start that way, though.
People, the small minority of atheists was not upset that you play "God" in the game, they were upset that religious factions in the game have magical powers (like healing spells). Personally, I agree that its a bit odd to have magic in a game purportedly about science, but I'm not offended or anything.
I'm surprised these atheists don't understand the basic concept of not applying philosophical views to entertainment, and to a lesser extent, politics. Isn't logic supposed to be the fundamental idea of an atheist? Oh the irony.
Well, you'd think militant atheists would also recognize that their idea is essentially a religion too, but they seems to have missed that one.
This is just sensationalistic reporting, read the linked interview. Plus would I be right in thinking that they were actively looking for what anyone might find objectionable?
I'm an atheist who's very excited about this game. There. That out of the way?
I've been thinking about this alot lately, perhaps far too hard at that. Spore seems to reflect whatever you yourself believe, I think it promotes evolution, other people think it supports "intelligent design". I'd say that's silly to think the latter just because you control the evolution, cause, you know, it wouldn't be much of a game if you didn't, but that's just me...
My first reaction to a recent SPORE video and the voice-over. "WOW. That's exactly the point of view of the Intelligent Design thoery!!" No wonder Atheists are upset. That violates their religion! I'll buy a copy of SPORE for that reason alone!
There is no point to "Intelligent Design". It's an idea in search of a theory...thinly veiled religious dogma, not science. I'll buy a copy of SPORE because it actually seems like a good way to test how external, environmental pressures and random mutations over time can bring about interesting bio-diversity just as Darwin posited while remaining within a controlled, simulated environment.
OR MAYBE I'll buy it because it should be an addictive, fun program in the way Populous, Civilization of Sim City have been. Don't bring atheism OR religion into this...it's pretty irritating either way.
Why so antagonistic? You come across as habouring a phobia of atheists - not very charitable, is it?
-- teh moominz --
In fairness the game is a variation on "God sims", and therefore pretty much "Intellegent Design" as a game. Of course playing designer may be fun, but it won't validate the empty hypothesis that is ID. ;)
Gift.
So the Earth is just a big game of Spore?
Personally, I find Spore to be nothing to do with ID, and everything to do with 'a very big game'.
I have to admit. What fun would a game be if all you did was sit around and watch as random things happened to change the creatures. You might as well just go watch a movie.
The prospect of creating external factors to change the evolutionary path of your creatures is a lot more fun than watching them bump around and hoping that something interesting will happen.
E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091
You know... I think it would be kinda cool to be able to create the enviroment and have the virtual critters evolve to become better suited to it and more advanced.
You are creating the planet, and letting evolution take its course....
My God! We could anger two groups at once!
Maybe as a mini-game, you could design a planet with a bunch of sliding scales and some contintent placement, and the game generates some advanced life on the planet based on the environment. Obviously not designed as a serious evolution simulator, just a quick bit of fun to see what wacky ways things could adapt.
After all, they're putting hundreds of other random features in.
As a biologist I respectfully have to disagree, my chosen profession is very interesting precisely because "random* things happened to change... creatures" :P
Then again, a lot of time has elapsed to allow interesting things to occur. ;)
Gift.
*and not so random.
<sigh>
One day the Internet will tell the difference between 'atheists', 'agnostics', 'liberals', 'democratics' etc and the much larger population of 'people who like to complain'.
I suspect these people were about as 'atheist' as Jack Thompson is a Christian, in other words, they are when it's suits their need to complain.
Dear Atheists,
If you have a problem with Spore...GET OVER IT! Either play the dang game and enjoy it or don't play at all. Thank you.
-a logical person
Dear logical person,
The number of people who are complaining about this game are indeed very small, and I assure you that you'll find more people complaining about sporn then you will see complianing about it's inculsion of religion. I wish I could say the larger atheist society will reject these guys but there is no larger atheist society. Atheists are about as unorganized as you can get (with the exception of agnostics). So with that in mind there will be nuts.
Signed,
Me
Organising atheists (or agnostics, for that matter) has been likened to herding cats.
The most likely reason being that people who value independant thought are going to resist throwing their lot in with other people, even if they're likeminded.
-- teh moominz --
The truth is it's a vocal minority, very often of people who don't really care about their point of view, they just have a possibility to whine and therefore do so. That's been the nature of the Internet since day 1.
Personally, I have some doubts about the point behind Will Wrights comments to be honest, it just seems like yet another excuse to complain about people on the Internet. So will got some nasty Emails, poor Will, it's not like he can't afford a secretary. So because people are complaining about him on the Internet, he's going to complain back instead of rise above it.
As is so commonly said on the Internet. Don't feed the Trolls.
It's times like these that make me glad my parents told me when I was little that it's impossible to satisfy everyone.
"If you cure Cancer, someone will complain you didn't cure some other disease"
Always expect some group to hate what you've done, then you will never have to be surprised or disappointed when they do.
This is why agnostics are the best. They could honestly give a shit how the universe was created. If they do, they would look at it unbiasedly.
Are you implying that agnostics are the only ones who can look at things unbiasedly?
Because that certainly isn't a pompous biased comment right there.
So its easier to have a clearer point of view by... not actually having a point of view? :p
Can someone please explain to me why atheist are so upset? So what if there is a god in the game. Ateism isnt a religion they probably just want attention.
No it's more of a case of a small amount of complainers that don't represent anyone.
There are those that treat it like one.. you know, the ones that get horribly offended and give you a 10 minute lecture if you put a christmas tree up. Mostly I just use the term 'asshole' which covers both militant atheism and militant theism in one descriptive term.
Expect him to talk about how The Sims 3 offends Chris Hanson. I do not think he's actually making any other games at the moment.
Militant atheists? Really? I hope they understand that by joining a group of people that are willing to not only use their words but their fists to bring people to their own version of the truth, a group of people who are easily offended when their world view is contested, they have in fact joined the atheist definition of a religion.
I'm an atheist and spore looks kind of boring just by the pure fact that it has no story, there is no competition, there is nothing controversial, no hard choices, no adrenaline kicks. It looks kind of like the sims, bland and wasteful.
Depends what mood I'm in to be honest with games like that.
Sometimes it's nice to play things like City Builders, where you only occasionally 'nudge' matters and see the long-term effects of that interaction, other times it's nice to have games that are a little less 'cerebral' in nature.
That said, I have a natural love of finding 'systems' in things, which has served me no end in my Computing degree, and can happily spend hours setting up systems and seeing how they act/interact :)
But spore really does prove that creationists are talking rubbish, we are not penis monsters being constantly attacked by giant cunts.
Unless Gods cock looks like us (we are after all "made in his image"), and well we do have politicians…
This goes to show that whatever you do someone will take offence.
If this is true, then I am truly disappointed in these athiests. Most atheists are smarter than this. These guys sound like the right wing nuts who are trying to force some form of religion on everything and anything, even make-believe worlds.
Trying to enforce one's own worldview isn't specifically a right wing, left wing, front or center issue. Everyone has the potential to be a tyrant, all that differs is the means of amassing power.
Its a fucking vidoegame why are they angry man people are retarded
I call complete rubbish on this one. Nowhere does it say what the atheists said or who these atheists are. It's just some random noobs posting on forums, trying to create a little controversy. Well they succeeded and everyone here was silly enough to take their trolling seriously.
Will Wright should heed the warning: Don't feed the trolls
Oh. Fakkin' WHAAAAAA!!!
I long for the 1970's when no one whined about every little thing they didn't like. Now the world is filled with whiney, little bitches.
People are so damned rediculous.