"[The Christian Gamers] believe that "Christians have too long allowed non-Christians to dominate the imagined world of role-playing, which was originally inspired by Christian men like J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis"

Sounds like they're planning a "virtual crusade" of sorts. Could make for some great PvP. Kill the heathens! Kill the infidels!

Should religion have a place in games? Yes and no.

Yes- in an MMORPG, primarily, guilds are usually formed on a basis of interests. I can't count how many Christian-only guilds there are in Guild Wars, but even if the primary point of the game is to play and have fun, it's worth pointing out that some people MIGHT feel more comfortable doing it with people with similar interests. There's nothing wrong with that.

But...

No- in that it shouldn't be viewed as a forum to push one's beliefs on. No, this isn't what they're doing ALL the time, and most guilds don't do it at all. But once you make a claim that all non-believers have been allowed to "dominate" a game, then you're pushing the issue just a wee-bit too far. The game isn't ABOUT religion, so much as it's about having fun- trying to point out that anybody not tied down to a christian gaming group is somehow missing the point of the game, is in itself missing the point of the game. And introducing religion as a topic of discussion in such a game is nowhere NEAR wise, not just because there are gamers of many different faiths, but nobody's really going to give a shit about what Jeebus said to John while you're taking down Shiro Tagachi at the Imperial Sanctum with a full party.

Again, I remind you that having it as a way to meet people of similar interests is fine, but anybody expecting a reasonable discussion about God on a server is deluding themselves. And besides, it states on their site that among their goals, they mean to "Glorify God and Jeebus" and "Promote Morally Responsible Gaming". I don't know about anyody else, but if that means I have to be lectured over XBL chat about my Soul Calibur 4 Created Character, and how he's red and has horns, then maybe it's NOT a good idea.

...

Besides, I play Tabula Rasa- alot of the elements of that game are precisely against Christian teachings. And a crucifix isn't going to protect me from a level 50 Predator as much as a fully maxed-out EMP Chaingun will.

"One of the things we can do is show that evil does have consequences.  The game master can say “okay, if you really want to torture your prisoner for information when there’s no real need to … you can do that but it will come back on you.”"

That's fair enough.  If they release their own game and want to put forward this notion of karmic comeuppance so be it, it'd be their game.  I remember being a GM and the world my friends played in was always tinged with my own beliefs and it's no different here.  I just find it a little hard to swallow that performing evil acts will net me an ethereal spanking or a karmic epic fail. 

I'm not religious by any stretch of the imagination.  What I know of the bible could fit on a matchbook.  That being said: It was always my understand that god left us to our own devices and that the afterlife is when the punishment begins.  Good to heaven, evil to hell and all that.  To me that doesn't jive with the idea of something "coming back on me".  From a gameplay perspective if I die and go to hell then sure, that makes sense to me.  But if my ficticious character performs unspeakable acts (acts not seen by anyone else but the GM) and then, say, an anvil falls from the sky as some sort of karmic backlash I don't buy it.  That doesn't seem to fit the bible mythos in mind.  I mean if we look at real life how many folks could we list here that lead what we'd consider "evil" lives and yet still continue to live happily?

I dunno, just my 2 cents.  Religious games don't bother me, more power to the gaming community if another game developer enters the arena.  My biggest peeve is inconsistant game rules.

I for one wouldn't mind more 'Christian' games, so long as they aren't linear and too preachy.  Don't brow-beat me with a moral message.  Let me learn what I should do on my own.

"Christians have too long allowed non-Christians to dominate the imagined world of role-playing, which was originally inspired by Christian men like J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis (not to mention Dante, John Bunyan, and John Milton)"

They could also mention Gary Gygax and Tracy "Dragonlance" Hickman, who were both Christian (Gygax was born-again and Hickman was conservative Christian).

By the way, I'm glad they join the party.

I'm not sure where this was all missed, but for some reason people take the fact that Christian's want to make and play games to mean that you're going to get in-game alter calls and that and the end of the game you'll have to watch the Jesus video. I don't remember that in the Lord of the Rings, and while C.S. Lewis did write just straight up theological works on Christianity, he also wrote dang good fiction that didn't brow beat people with his faith yet still incorporated amazing amounts of spiritual insight. The point is that being religious and wanting that to affect your creative works and hobbies doesn't automatically equate with door-to-door evangelism so I think some of you guys can just chill for a bit on all your religion hating.

Finally: if you've had a bad experience with Christians in the past I understand, I don't know a person who hasn't actually, but trust me, there are Christians who aren't morons out there and if you really wanted to talk about Christianity with them they would do it. Picking lame fights and making fun of poor-thinking fundamentalists doesn't seem like an intelligent way to talk about religion, and it makes you look just as bad as Christians you react so strongly against. Let's face it, running away from virulent Christian dogmatism by embracing virulent Agnostic dogmatism doesn't really make much sense.

And I'm out.

If I start seeing bible verses in WoW general chat, I'll /ignore them, that simple.

"Christians have too long allowed non-Christians to dominate the imagined world of role-playing, which was originally inspired by Christian men like J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis (not to mention Dante, John Bunyan, and John Milton)."

Oy what's with this talk of 'allowed'? Those non Christian folks didn't need your blessing or your permission nor was there much you could do about it legally other than trying to outnumber them (which is what I guess you're going to try and do now). 

"And that it’s time to be a creative force in role-playing and other forms of faming for the true author of all creativity and imagination, Almighty God Himself."

I'm kinda offended that you think humans couldn't have creativity without God. I know it's not scripture in any way but I'm reminded of a passage in Dante's Inferno. According to Dante the first level of hell is reserved for people who never heard of Christianity or Judaism, lived by a different majority religion or were born before Christianity spread. That level is pretty much a neutral zone where the inhabitants just stay there and talk to each other ... for eternity. Anyway there's a special small little castle or something for philosophers and what not who 'saw truth and the light without God' or something like that. If people can see truth without I'm sure they can have creativity (and yes I know it's not scripture, just fiction).

Anyway back on subject I don't see why religion needs to play apart in these games. I kinda doubt they have much of an impact on the faithful so...

"...which was originally inspired by Christian men like J.R.R. Tolkien..."

Funny. J.R.R. Tolkien was decidedly *not* Christian. It was a constant point of contention between him and his Christian friend, C.S. Lewis. At least this hoax of a gorup could bother to do a little research... :P

Most of you people are completely idiotic. Did you even read the interview or the second paragraph?

If anything they have listed their goal as opening the world of Christianity to gaming. Even so, think about the creations of Tolkien, or as listed about Hickman or Gygax. Did their creations preach the Bible? No, but they contained a lot of ideas that synch up with Christianity well. Could it be that they mean that level of involvement?

So many of you guys are so assuming and ignorant. The wonderful thing is, being a Christian Geek, I have to have Atheist beliefs shoved down my throat constantly and hear about how Christianity is just a world of make believe, and yet here the natural assumption is a group of Christian gamers just want to preach endlessly.

Just who do you think is running the Crusade here? Because I for one can't even mention my faith without people rolling their eyes or taking the defensive, even if what I have to say has nothing to do with their own beliefs.

Bunch of assholes, you guys. I would've expected better out of GamePolitics, but I guess just because you THINK you're intelligent doesn't mean you are. In fact, it probably only adds to the fact that you're actually and ignorant little shit.

Doesn't seem like the world's worst idea ever, though I can see where it might go horribly, horribly wrong.

All potential stereotyping aside, I know a lot of Christians who are casual gamers, or casual gamers who could go more hardcore. Hell, my father- a self-described fundie Christian, although not of the batshit, abortion-clinic destroying type of fundie- relaxes after a long day of work by beating people's heads in at Tekken. He plays enough that's he's gearing up (and buttering up my mother) towards buying a ps3.

People are somewhat clannish by nature, and religion is one of the ways people describe themselves. Now, I'd be severely annoyed if I had anyone of any religion- my own or otherwise- flapping down to prostelize at me, but I don't see the inherent harm in encouraging a new guild that can draw in new players. While there will most likely never be a guild/clan/what have you geared towards my religion, anything that draws more people in, both for gaming and (hopefully) intelligent debate within the gaming community is a definite plus.

Of course, any sort of 'descriptive' clan has to come in realising that they're not going to be free of criticism as they game, form ideas, and move up in the gaming world, nor should they be. As long as they realise what they're getting themselves into...

Don't have a problem with this and would be happy to hold a discussion with someone with Christian beliefs, as long as we both respect each others standpoint.

I actually think this is an excellent idea, and people who have read the quotes would realise that here are people with a theological viewpoint, but who believe the same as us, that games aren't 'evil' and that we should take responsibility for our actions in real life.

It's always interesting to note that Tolkein, a devout Christian re-imagined the world of 16th century ballads, with Dragons and Trolls etc, which led, in time to the creation of D&D etc, which was then a target of more radical Christian groups.

Odd to note that not one person in the article said that non-Christians shouldn't be allowed into the game with their beliefs, and yet people here are saying precisely that about Christians?

Go onto their site and read their goals before jumping to conclusions, please.

There are people here embarassing us by attacking a group that, regardless of their thelogical standpoint, are on our side when it comes to differentiating between reality and fantasy. Let's stop bashing them because they are Christian and start supporting them for trying to represent our views from a standpoint that can be accepted in a very wide context.

Heh, RPG... You get to witness his teaching (realism is a must). Has both a dark side and light side (first coordinated effort between the Church and Satanic Church members).

Welcome to America.

Yes, it does mention that Christian Gamers are just like any other gamer in the world.

And I do believe that even christian gamers love games like Final Fantasy and even Legend of Zelda even though the gods or goddesses (or Espers) in some of those games have different names or elements. But even then, with the element of Good Vs Evil in RPG's, there is allot to like in the view of the Christian Gamer.

The site even goes into the myths of RPG's and even notes what RPG crittics have said and the reason why these critics are wrong basicly they judge a game without even knowing how to play it.

for example ---------

Do these games have sexual overtones?

Critics say that sex including rape is common in these games, including Dungeons & Dragons. But there are no rules for either in the books. As many times as we've read these arguments no one has ever cited one specifically. From reading the rules, you'd think the characters were all eunuchs--there are veiled passing references to where babies come from, and that's about it. The succubus may be a demon of sexual temptation, but it kills by touching in a combat attack just like anything else, and not by any sort of lascivious sex scene. Yes, there are some suggestive sketches here and there, something close to what appears on the cover of Cosmopolitan but that it's not real (the Eldritch Wizardry book sometimes cited was pulled and the cover replaced after very few copies were sold, because the cover was too lurid sexually and had slipped by without the approval of the company executives; nothing nearly so bad as that was ever published before or since). This is, after all, a real company trying to market a real product in the real world, and it uses the marketing techniques of our age. It's not like Playboy or Penthouse, not even in the softer versions which were around in those days. It's just suggestive enough that boys will buy it but most parents won't really worry about it. There are pictures that are mildly offensive and unnecessary, but they certainly don't approach the standards of what shows on public television today.

In a sense, the real problem is not sex but the lack thereof. Mythworld is one of the only fantasy games that admits venereal disease exists (although it is hardly emphasized, with only a couple of mentions: a disease which can only be contracted in specific circumstances, and in treasure, potions that can treat it). Sex is an important part of life, and there is a degree to which games have misrepresented reality precisely by ignoring it. However, in our culture it is a very difficult issue to address in any context, particularly in games, and will probably remain outside the mainstream of role playing games for the foreseeable future.

It may be that sex and rape rules have been written by particular players for their games; but some of us have played for over twenty years with hundreds of people and never been in a game in which they were used. While some adult-only game groups do have sex in their story lines, virtually all insist it be "off camera". Rape is a perennial subject in game discussion lists, but even there the consensus is that it be restricted to adult groups, have player consent, and be played as a tragedy. One of the most potent arguments against it is that one of the players in the group may have been a victim, and this is nothing to play with.

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That to me indicates that we as gamers can really appreciate this site allot because the Christian Gamers Guild is allot like us, they are trying to spread about the good things in Videogames while also talking about the myths of what has been said about RPGs,

If only a more christian gamers would stand up and talk about GTA being like a Modden Day Bible where you have to play though the game and the challenge is not to commit any sin. That would be a really good thing to talk about.

The thing is that the Christian block have been so negative towards gamers and gaming for decades.  I still remember Jack Chick's anti-gaming comics and the gross misrepresentation he did against Dungeons and Dragons.   This decades long animosity between gaming and Christianity is not just going to go away.

So, when there's shit like 'GayGamer' floating around on the internet, everyone's okay with it, but when someone proposes a Christian-themed organisation, people are all up in arms about it?

Am I missing something?

As I said, it is mostly due to the decades long animosity that conservative Christianity has caused against gamers.  I do think that this is a positive step forward to let gamers who do have religious beliefs, not just Christians, to bridge and eliminate this animosity.  Of course this is a two way street as well and those gamers who are not religious or do not follow traditional religious doctrines need to do some work towards this as well.  Lets look at the common ground, and not the differences.

As some of you guys have point out, not all Christians are like Jack Thompson.

I'm surprised. I thought for sure this thread would turn into an anti-theistic lets attack christianity bashfest with the regular screamings of "Opiate of the Masses" and "You're a retard and sheep if you believe in God" but it didn't. Thank God.

I've been involved with the Christian Gamers Guild for more than ten years. I think the biggest problem people are having with the above quote is that it is taken slightly out of context. The statement is meant as a reproach to Christians who have abandoned gamers and gaming as either "lost causes" or "evil". It is not a call to arms. Too often Christians have pointed fingers at gamers and called them all sorts of things. It's no wonder there is a lot of animosity between the two subcultures. The CGG is more likely to take the Christian community to task for its sins than they are the gaming community. We're our own toughest critics. The CGG is about building bridges between the two groups. It's about saying to Christians, "Hey, gaming isn't inherently evil. If you dis gaming because of your ignorance, you're missing out on a lot of fun and a good opportunity to meet a lot of really great people. Stop being stupid." and to Gamers, "Hey, not all Christians are close-minded, bigoted jerks who want to take away your toys, spoil your fun and try to make you all into good little boys and girls."

I'm all for freedom of ttnet vitamin speech and allowing rent a car game makers to put whatever they want in games, but there's one thing about this app that has me scratching my head.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but from araç kiralama the previous article araba kiralama on this I gathered that players can use Google maps in-game to find the other (real-life?) dealers in their area.  If this is the case, has travesti anyone considered what's stopping someone from using this app to actually move drugs between hands for reals?

But majority araba kiralama of their outrage araç kiralama stems from what it could DO TO children, not the content itself.  Talk to one of these people and you'll find they don't think any books kiralık araba should be banned from children.  Mention American Psycho and they talk about kiralık araç the redeeming value of using imagination to construct a story.  Reading, no matter what the content, is largely viewed as a consequenceless activity for people of any age.  The reason why I mention American Psycho is because of the content itself.  Gaming never has and likely never will have any scenes where someone has sex with a severed head.  Not gonna happen.  Yet despite this, they'll fight tooth and nail to protect their children from two boys kissing in Bully but whatever they read is harmless... yeah.

The entire arguement is kiralık oto based upon a social normality inflicted by luddites who can't figure out the controls for Halo so it's frightening and terrifying and obviously the cause of youth violence on the rise even though, in reality, it's in decline (which is actually a HUGE suprise given minibüs kiralama the economies status).  In  a perfect world, we would have parents that actually parent.  The idea of sales restrictions on media on oto kiralama any form to accomidate parental unwillingness to get involved with their child's life is the real problem to me.  Here I am, 32 years old, and being held up at a self-scan rent a car needing to show ID before I can buy a $10 M rated game all because Soccer Momthra can't be bothered to look at the crap Billy Genericallystupidson does in his free time.  It's too hard for her, so I have to suffer?