Report: U.K. Video Game Design Degrees Not Worth the Paper They're Printed On
Report: U.K. Video Game Design Degrees Not Worth the Paper They're Printed On
August 25, 2008
A report in the Daily Mail casts doubt on the value of university video game design degrees issued in the U.K.
Of more than 80 such programs, only four meet the standards of Skillset, a nonprofit devoted to the creative industries. From the Daily Mail:
Britain's multi-million-pound computer games industry has criticised universities for offering gaming degrees that fail to equip students for work. Some of the country’s leading firms complain that many courses lack vital computing, maths or art and animation skills. Their comments will reignite debate that too many universities are offering ‘Mickey Mouse’ degrees with little job relevance.
SCEE exec Jamie MacDonald offered harsh criticism:
I can’t remember the last time I employed someone from [the video game programs].
A PUBLICATION OF THE ECA
SUBSCRIBE
LOGINGamePolitics ShoutBox
Posted 02/09/10 at 03:51pm
DarkSaber: I think he just goes round the internet copy+pasting the same bollocks to get attention.
DarkSaber: I think he just goes round the internet copy+pasting the same bollocks to get attention.
Posted 02/09/10 at 03:41pm
Valdearg: @DS: I have to admit, I chuckled when I saw the 4 Feb 2010 on that post.. >.<
Valdearg: @DS: I have to admit, I chuckled when I saw the 4 Feb 2010 on that post.. >.<
Posted 02/09/10 at 03:31pm
DarkSaber: Hm, Bioshock. Not that Zippy likes to beat the dead horse by ranting about it for TWO $&%£ING YEARS!
DarkSaber: Hm, Bioshock. Not that Zippy likes to beat the dead horse by ranting about it for TWO $&%£ING YEARS!
Posted 02/09/10 at 03:30pm
DarkSaber: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.173063-Bioshock-yet-another-zippy-rant
DarkSaber: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.173063-Bioshock-yet-another-zippy-rant
Posted 02/09/10 at 03:20pm
DarkSaber: Although, unsurprisingly, he's just being called an idiot alot and criticised for being as illegible as always.
DarkSaber: Although, unsurprisingly, he's just being called an idiot alot and criticised for being as illegible as always.
Posted 02/09/10 at 03:18pm
DarkSaber: Oh good lord, I just found Zippy on The Escapist.
DarkSaber: Oh good lord, I just found Zippy on The Escapist.
Posted 02/09/10 at 03:14pm
Valdearg: IE: Male body/Female Mind or Female Body/Male Mind.
Valdearg: IE: Male body/Female Mind or Female Body/Male Mind.
Posted 02/09/10 at 03:13pm
Valdearg: @Zip: TG == Transgendered/Transsexual.
Valdearg: @Zip: TG == Transgendered/Transsexual.
Posted 02/09/10 at 03:09pm
DarkSaber: Forget it Zippy, it's an abbreviation of a big word and so would be wasted on you
DarkSaber: Forget it Zippy, it's an abbreviation of a big word and so would be wasted on you
Posted 02/09/10 at 03:07pm
ZippyDSMlee: Vlag:....TG?
ZippyDSMlee: Vlag:....TG?
Posted 02/09/10 at 03:02pm
Valdearg: @DS: Im sure that's what they'd do if it wasn't legal to just tell Gays/TG's to "Screw off," just because they're who they are.
Valdearg: @DS: Im sure that's what they'd do if it wasn't legal to just tell Gays/TG's to "Screw off," just because they're who they are.
Posted 02/09/10 at 02:50pm
DarkSaber: Whoever told him/her/it that is dumb. They should have done like most companies and made-up some bullshit, yet legal, reason for it not getting the job.
DarkSaber: Whoever told him/her/it that is dumb. They should have done like most companies and made-up some bullshit, yet legal, reason for it not getting the job.
Posted 02/09/10 at 01:16pm
Andrew Eisen: Shouldn't be. Spirit of anti-discrimination laws would seem to include sexual orientation (and eye color). Plus there's always equal protection and such. Never know until you try.
Andrew Eisen: Shouldn't be. Spirit of anti-discrimination laws would seem to include sexual orientation (and eye color). Plus there's always equal protection and such. Never know until you try.
Posted 02/09/10 at 01:10pm
Andrew Eisen: Should have sued (unless that wasn't an option given her financial situation or something). Might have won.
Andrew Eisen: Should have sued (unless that wasn't an option given her financial situation or something). Might have won.
Posted 02/09/10 at 01:00pm
Valdearg: Story about a Male to Female TG who was expressly told she wouldn't be given a job because she was TG. Its not the main point of the story, but explicit, perfectly legal discrimination like this exists.
Valdearg: Story about a Male to Female TG who was expressly told she wouldn't be given a job because she was TG. Its not the main point of the story, but explicit, perfectly legal discrimination like this exists.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:53pm
Valdearg: Lol, I don't know. It may very well be legal to do so. Though that might able to fall under the "race" restriction, depending on how that point is argued.
Valdearg: Lol, I don't know. It may very well be legal to do so. Though that might able to fall under the "race" restriction, depending on how that point is argued.
Posted 02/09/10 at 12:51pm
Valdearg: I don't think they do have any legal recourse. I'll have to dig around, but I seriously believe that if the law doesn't specifically mention Sexual Orientation or Gender Identity, they can still be discriminated against in those 29 states.
Valdearg: I don't think they do have any legal recourse. I'll have to dig around, but I seriously believe that if the law doesn't specifically mention Sexual Orientation or Gender Identity, they can still be discriminated against in those 29 states.
Copyright © 2007 ECA. All rights reserved.
Game Politics and Game Politics logo are trademarks of the ECA.
Game Politics and Game Politics logo are trademarks of the ECA.
Comments
Perhaps they should do less complaining and more retraining.
I remember reading about Rare and how they partner with schools to better the education of students seeking to get into games.
The video game industry needs to start letting the schools know what they want their future employees to know upon graduation if they want them. Until then, the schools will take shots in the dark with the direction of the curriculum and often come up way short.
E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091
I have to disagree that it is something that the video games industry can work with the schools to fix.
I work in games, and I have had several of my friends and collegues actually try to teach in some of these schools. The theory being of course that if you have industry vetrans working with game schools, they can teach the students what they need to know. These people were told flat out that all the school cares about is their students getting good marks. At one school, they were told that their annual pay raises would be based on how many A's they handed out. (More A's, more raise). The theory being that if the students are doing well, then the parents are happy, and if the parents are happy, they will pay for the next semester.
Most of these schools do nothing but sell dreams to high school students that like to play video games. They peddle the "if you like games, think of the great games you could make", and the "it's a high paying job where you do nothing but what you love" view of the industry. if they were to actually show the students just how much hard work and discipline goes into making a game, most of the wide eyed dreamers would drop out. So, instead of teaching them the math and physics they will need to be programmers, they teach them how to modify unreal scripts, and make moving pictures in Flash. Once the student has graduated, they don't care what happens, because at that point, they will have taken all the money they can, and moved on to the next sucker.
My advice for anyone who wants to be a game programmer (I am a programmer myself, so I have less advice to offer those who want to get into art or design)... Go to a real university. Study programming, study math, study physics. Yes, they take longer, and the work is harder, but you will learn skills that will actually help you in your desired careers. You will also avoid the stigma that most companys have hired graduates from these games schools, had them flounder about due to lack of training, and refuse to hire more of their grads.
That is something that could be handled by the games industry. All it takes is a site set up where HR reps or other exects from each company can come and rate the likely hood of them hiring from a degree program at certain colleges. Make this information public and you will see a lot of schools change.
But of course the schools need to want to change.
E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091
It's a good idea, and in a perfect world, you're right, there would be a central place that potential students could go to check out the school they're thinking of, and see how it actually stacks up.
One thing to remember though is that there is no giant entity known as "the games industry". It is mostly just a bunch of companies (EA, Take2, Acclaim, and a myriad of little ones) that have little or no interaction with each other on a regular basis. Most of the individual companies can't afford to risk the defamation of character lawsuit that most of the schools would hit them with if they posted any negative publicity. (At least here in North America, I imagine it is similar in the UK).
Much less risky to just bypass resumes from students at schools they've had bad experiences with, especially if you are one of the little companies with not a lot of cash to spare for lawyers.
"Most of these schools do nothing but sell dreams to high school students that like to play video games. They peddle the "if you like games, think of the great games you could make", and the "it's a high paying job where you do nothing but what you love" view of the industry. if they were to actually show the students just how much hard work and discipline goes into making a game, most of the wide eyed dreamers would drop out."
Recent controversy notwithstanding, this is something I feel RPI is doing very right. The guy running their (relatively new) formal game development program knows his stuff very well. When I took Game Development with him (basically a make-a-game-in-one-semester course), he was very, very blunt about the realities of the dev cycle. Overtime, revisions, content cuts, overtime, project scope, overtime...and everything he said proved to be true.
In the first intro to design course there, he has a flowchart showing the development cycle of a game. He points out that there is no way to get from the start to the end of the chart without passing through "Developer gets screwed" at least once =P
He was also very blunt about the fact that most people who think they want to make games when they graduate high school, really don't. They like the idea of making games, or they just like to play them. His were the best classes I took there.
This report comes from the Daily Mail? Absolutely shocking. I wonder if they realize just how much they've killed their own credibility at this point.
M. Carusi
Capitol Gaming
http://capitolgaming.blogspot.com
That would suggest that they had any credibility to start with.
I would not trust anything from the Daily Mail.
Also I have been to too many schools with teachers wanting to sell me the course and not telling me if the course is relevent to getting into the Videogame Industry.
I may as well make my Flash Game, then try getting into Uni once when I finish with my own Flash game to show them my skills.
A few years ago I was told I was going to make Videogames, only to find out it was a crappy Multimedia course that was not worth my own time and money,
I would rather a Videogame Course such as this one and NOT a course based on boring Programming and Multimedia that both has nothing related to Videogames at all.
I'm actually going with the Daily Mail, for once, on this.
A lot of "game design" schools are money traps with a few exceptions such as DigiPen and Full Sail. Odds are against you for being accepted and surviving in these two schools so the more realistic option is the "boring" programming and multimedia courses at a regular 4-year college, which you supposedly can't find any relation to video games. Underneath the graphics and stories, it's all a whole lot of number-pushing going on. Any skills needed for basic programming are needed for creating games. I would've stuck with programming and use what I learn to make a few simple games on my own time. Maybe your multimedia course was indeed crappy, but you should have taken advantage of it by doing that.
A CS degree is more versatile than a CS degree with a video game focus. What if you cannot get right into the gaming industry? The guy with a plain ol' CS degree would have more luck landing some other software job that will give him real-world experience, while the VG degree guy will be grasping at straws while working at some irrelevant job to make ends meet.
And when colleges sell their courses as "Game Design", what is "Game Design" exactly? That is as broad as the term "building design". Nobody would know exactly what a "game designer" does if it's just thrown as a degree in a resume.
And of course we don't have building designers, but jobs divided among architects, engineers and urban planners. As an architect you're not expected to know every last detail of electrical and plumbing systems. There are MEP engineers that do this kind of work. Similarly, you go into level design, character design or programming in your video game career, but not all at the same time. It is better to specialize in something and do it real well, than being a generalist, because job space is very limited and they won't take just anybody.
"And when colleges sell their courses as "Game Design", what is "Game Design" exactly? That is as broad as the term "building design". Nobody would know exactly what a "game designer" does if it's just thrown as a degree in a resume."
Eh, I disagree. My resume says "Game Designer". Courses at my school are listed under "Game Design". We have "software engineers", and that's even more broad than "game designer".
"And of course we don't have building designers, but jobs divided among architects, engineers and urban planners. As an architect you're not expected to know every last detail of electrical and plumbing systems. There are MEP engineers that do this kind of work. Similarly, you go into level design, character design or programming in your video game career, but not all at the same time. It is better to specialize in something and do it real well, than being a generalist, because job space is very limited and they won't take just anybody."
This is absolutely dependent upon your particular employer. I've worked for multiple developers, and my title and role have been different at each. At one, I was expected to do (and did) all three. At one, I was called a "level designer", but I didn't actually design levels; I populated, scripted, tested, and balanced them after an artist had actually created them. At my current position, I do everything that falls under the umbrella of "design".
There is no standardization of roles in the industry because each company works differently. A "game design" skillset will probably land you a job at a number of different companies, but what you do there may be wildly different from what you'd do at another company.
Most of the "game degrees" offered in the US are shit as well.
However there are some good ones.
Was it Collins College? I believe they had a commercial with two guys just tweaking sound effects with their controllers. I didn't see a mixing board, though.
Nothing tops Westwood College's marketing campaign though.
Collins' commercials sucked hard core. Not just for their game design degree, but for all of thier degrees.
E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091
And then there are the schools that offer "free video games" with enrollment. You know they must provide quality training...
DeVry airs commercials promising free demos.
Is that the commercial with two guys sitting on the sofa programming a game with PS2 controllers telling their boss that they need to tighten up the controls?
And, once again, what is missed in the education process of game design is the technology of storytelling.
The linear and even the tree branch methods were decent enough for the lower technology games of the past. Even now, the tree branch method has its uses.
But newer methods must be taught. If and when the holodeck ever comes about, will authors really be ready for that level of story writing? Even before the holodeck, at some point you're going to have to do something other than drop players into an arena to shoot or hack one another.
Games like Mass Effect and KOTOR were good starts. But we still need to move away from the "follow the bar graph" and focus on developing better interaction with NPCs as well as giving players a larger play area even in the story itself.
Not every game has to have options from following both good and bad paths. But interactive media should offer more than the linear "lead by the nose" that static books, movies, and TV offer.
But there's very little training along those lines.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl
hopefully by the time we have holodeck we will have passable AI.
Hopefully will have a holodeck that won't glitch up every so often and try to kill us.
Hmmm... well this is something i can speak on a personal level about.
Im currently JUST about to enter my 3rd and final year at university studying a Computer Games Development degree in the UK.
From my personal experience ive got to say i dont think it is a waste of time in ANY way, and as long as you pick the right course and research it thoroughly (ask the right questions to the tutors before you enrol) then you have nothing to worry about. You wouldnt buy a car if you had never seen it just because a salesman said 'This is the best car you will ever buy, give me £10,000 without even looking at it'. So i dont see why people in the UK would do the same (£10,000 is the average price of a 3 year course at uni)
I chose my degree because i looked into it and found that 90% of it was core c++ programming, object oriented design, math and with just some extra modules covering directX graphics programming (love it), and the process/special techniques used in game development from the start to the finish. Everyone seems to forget that you need the basic programming skills if you want to be a game programmer. My course is actually (across the technology department) recognised as the hardest degree there!
We did have a high drop out rate though because many students expected/wanted it to be an easy 'sit back and play games all day' 'mickey mouse' degree. ITs not. its a programming degree pure and simple.
At the end of the day the daily mail can say what they want, but the fact that myself AND my brother (on the same course) got down to the final 10 applicants (out of several THOUSAND) for RARE summer internships says all that i need to know. (I got to go to the HQ!! its ace!)
Recently UC Santa Cruz is the only Uiversity in the state of California to offer a videogame design degree in Computer Science. The program started in 2005 and it's interesting how interesting the class schedule structure is designed, considering that you'll have to take a few Economic and Film classes.
http://www.cs.ucsc.edu/
Here is some more information about the Computer Game Design degree given from the school website:
Questions about the degree:
http://www.cs.ucsc.edu/sites/default/files/bscs-cgd-questions.pdf
Description about the program:
http://www.cs.ucsc.edu/sites/default/files/game-design-details.pdf
I got suckered into one of these degrees, so I'm sort of glad to see some cautionary words about them in a major publication (even one as dubious as the Daily Mail). Most really do sell you dreams and not skills - the vast majority of my class either dropped out or are working in completely unrelated jobs. Those of us who were dedicated enough put in the extra hours outside of assignment time and actually developed a proper specialised skillset that would get us work. I'm happy to say that with enough perseverance I finally snagged an industry job. A depressingly small percentage of my peers made it, and not one of us would credit our success to our games degree. I actually had more luck once I took that particular qualification off my resume.
That said, these courses aren't completely useless. They give you starting points, useful terminology, the opportunity to work in a team and get used to meeting deadlines, and most importantly are a useful networking tool, as some of your classmates will inevitably make it into the industry and those contacts are useful for years to come. These programs are good for autodidacts who are willing to work really hard - not so much the career-uncertain types who were led there by promises of getting paid to play video games. Unfortunately, it is these types that they bring in and keep passing, and THAT'S what makes these degrees useless - if 90% of the graduating class are like this, employers will find out, and your degree or diploma might as well be toilet paper.
Get first years fees off of the dreamers if you must, but universities - PLEASE don't punish the students who work hard by awarding the same degree to them as the guy who makes teapots in 3DSMax and can't write a legible sentence.
My advice for anyone who wants to be a game programmer (I am a programmer myself, so I have less advice to offer those who want to get into art or design)... Go to a real university. Study programming, study math, study physics. Yes, they take longer, and the work is harder, but you will learn skills that will actually help you in your desired careers.
This. Right. Here. At my uni we have a "game design" course - I've put it in quotations because it might as well be called "$60,000 guarantee of unemployment certificate" with what they teach. Thankfully I'm in a degree where C is considered high-level (pretencious elitism etc...) and I also have a job programming games... and these students always ask me about how "magical" it must be and, this is the kicker, how easy it is to work at a game studio.
I won't lie, it's awesome, it's "magical" when everything is going great. When there are no compiler errors and your pointers aren't seg faulting... beautiful, absolutely fantastic best days of my life. And then there are days when your pm wants you to take a look at some assembly and you wonder if your suicide attempt will end up on the news... "Man hangs himself with rope made of dynamite" would be pretty catchy though don't you think?
Of course the first time I discussed this with some of the students in this course I realized that the next time I see them would probably be when I volunteer at the soup kitchen because they don't actually learn any programming...or modelling... they don't actually do anything... as far as I can tell their main subjects are Buzz Words 101 and Advanced Money Wasting...
It would be fine if they had them being introduced to programming concepts even through XNA or some of the more friendly beginner level things and building from that - but when the most advanced classes are sitting around using point & click game creators (half of which I'm sure I've seen on the shelves at the news agent) how can they expect to get anything other than laughed out of an interview?
"So what sort of programming skills do you have?"
"Well I've really only used Super Awesome Deluxe Game Designer: Xtreme Edition...2"
"So no C++...?
"C-what-what?"
The only thing courses like this give you that may be of any benefit is networking on the off chance that somebody you know actually manages to get hired... the professor may be able to help but that isn't the case here - in the local studios he's known as that guy and every other word he utters is something along the lines of "my close friend in the industry told me ${secret}"... I just want to grab him and scream "WE ARE THE 'INDUSTRY', YOU DON'T HAVE TO TRY AND IMPRESS US - EVERYBODY GOT THE SAME MEMO YOU DID... AND YOU PARKED IN MY PARKING SPOT!!!"
I don't know why anybody would want to work in games anyways though - you'll be surrounded by pricks like me allllll the time...
Working in the trenches of the games industry is indeed one of the more thankless jobs out there.
In essence I would agree with the comments made in this report. Game programming takes more than these degrees can provide.
It takes imagination, foresight and ability to create a top rated game, and it isnt always that these abilities are brought out by mere qualifications. yes the quals will teach you the basics of the mechanics of game design. Yes theymay even give you thetools and awareness that that will give you the ability to research for yourself the intricasies of game design, but will they give you the inherrant talent and ability to create a game?
I have been game programming since the 1970's and I know that it takes more than just doing a course to be a games designer/programmer. I personally have spent 16 hours a day sat at the end of a bedstead with a TV set (not a monitor im talking way before monitors were viable) beating my head against a wall just to figure out how to generate a software sprite in assembly language. If you are doing this right now, in some wierd programming language I don't understand then you are game programmer material. If youre drunk at a bar in a student union somwhere then forget it. no amount of training will help you.
Learning how to write games is not learned, it's bought by sweat and swearing.
If you are capable you KNOW who you are, and the chances are you never saw this post because you are too busy working on some algorithm right now. Best of luck to you, you weill make it wth or without a computer games writing degree.
For the rest of you, reconsider your choices, if you are complaining here about university degrees, then consider that you are not trying hard enough. No ... perhaps they don't give you the skills you require to be a top rated games programmer, but they do give you skills. Use those skills to continue onward or move direction, the choice is yours.
Chris Neary ex games programmer 1978 - 1992 mACM mBCS
Currently retraining at University of Plymouth Bsc Computing 2008 (See we all have to study some time).
microblitz@microblitz.co.uk
Ps.
if you want to go and do a degree in England which has been vetted by a games programmer veteran, then check out Abertay University in Dundee Scotland.
The Visiting professor there is Richard Leinfellner whom I worked with at Palace Software in the 1980's. Hes the Vice president of Electronic arts in UK now and supports the Games degree at Abertay. he also supports "Dare to be digital" a project to create the games programmers of the future.
http://www.daretobedigital.com/
If youre not part of this project... then why not? If not you can't be that serious about your careeer path.
Email me to blaspheme, talk games or chat. You know the email its in the previous post.
See you there ...Chris ....
Hi,
Just finished reading all your useful comments on game degrees. I was wondering if anyone out there can help me out with a personal dilemma.
I have unfortunately spent the last 4 years of my life getting my BaHist, a decision I made 4 years ago not knowing what I am going to do for the rest of my life.
I recently began teaching myself C++, something I have discovered I enjoy a lot! As an avid video game fan, I thought it would be great if I could develop for video games. So much so I have dropped out of the C.A. Program. I know, some of you may think that this is a stupid decision, but I know where my heart is now. Just wish I knew sooner.
My question is, knowing a developer myself, who’s advice is, “at an interview it is, ‘show me what you can do’ not what paper you have.” Where should I pursue an advanced programming education.
Here are the possible choices,
UOIT BaIT(3-4yrs) - http://www.uoit.ca/assets/
(go to pg. 11)
Windsor BaCs (3-4yrs) - http://www.uwindsor.ca/units/
Or....
Trios Diploma (2yrs) - http://www.trios.com/career/
The latter a new program to the college, supposedly built by Canada + U.S. Companies. And a laptop loan.
Also,
UAT BaCd (3-4yrs) ONLINE* - https://www.gamedegree.com/levelingUp_GameProgramming.asp
Since this last program would be online, and I live in Canada, is this a good idea?
Your comments will be much appreciated. If possible e-mail me at adrian.maurer@gmail.com
Thank You!
Adrian Maurer
Nintendo is indeed selling SOME of these on the Virtual Console but not even close to all of them. While i agree in part to his piracy he was filling a market that Nintendo failed to recognize. Maybe someone doesnt want to buy a Wii. maybe they just want a console with 50 - 100 NES games on them?? maybe just maybe?
but no Nintendo wants everyone araba kiralama to buy the Wii. thats their excuse but thats not what copyright is supposed to protect. i am real sure that the makers of 10 yard fight were losing sleep because they were missing out on their $0.00025 worth because they didnt get royalties from this player. *smirk*
my question is, should Super Mario Bros. be banned from public domain forever? isnt 23 years enough time for Nintendo to have made their profits?
If you have followed the Steamboat Willie case regarding Mickey Mouse you can rest in your bed well at night knowing that the MOUSE will still be under copyright law, away from public domain after your great grandchildren are in nursing homes. That is beyond ridiculous dont you think??
Gallagher can araç kiralama say all he wants, but I strongly rent a car believe it's due to his crappy leadership and E3 being a joke. ESA's Board of Directors need to find a way to get out rent a car of this horrid contract with this Bush cronie before there's no one left on the Board.
Btw, I think Atari and Midway will drop out too, but mostly travesti because these guys have done nothing ttnet vitamin or little and need to start saving costs.
YES.
Now I don't have to get off my ass for the important shit anymore!
Whats next, ordering pizza from Xbox live?
Wait... I think that sounds like a good idea.
But I think voting should MAKE you get off your ass, and see outside or a second while you go vote. I mean, your picking the president of the United States of America for God's Sake... least you can do is drive down there and punch out a card.
Thanks good job;
Btw, I think Atari and Midway will drop out too, but mostly travesti because these guys have done nothing travesti or little and need to start saving costs. and dizi izle
YES.
Now I don't have to get off my ass for the important shit anymore!
Whats next, ordering pizza from Xbox live?
Wait... I think that sounds like a good idea.
But I think voting should MAKE you get off your ass, and see outside or a second while you go vote. I mean, your picking the president of the United States of America for God's Sake... least you can do is drive down there and punch out a card.