In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as Gaming Mag Fights Back

September 8, 2008 -

Although last week's report of a Dead Space ban may be spurious, violent video games continue to come under fire in Germany.

GamePolitics has heard from several European gamers who have cited anti-game comments made by Bavarian Interior Minister Joachim Herrmann (left) to Zeit Online. Herrmann, a member of the conservative Christian Social Union (CSU), refers to violent games as Killerspiele (killer games). Big thanks to ECA forum member felix-reichert who has very graciously provided a translation of the interview:

ZEIT ONLINE: Mr. Herrmann, which "Killergames" have you played to come to the belief that they must be banned?

Joachim Herrmann: I personally don't play, but I have watched them [being played] extensively. I am shocked how the player is driven towards gruesome violence. He, so to speak, becomes a criminal himself and kills others to obtain money or to collect points. The more gruesome the killing the higher the score. We don't need something like this. Such games are unbearable.

ZEIT ONLINE: Obviously you are talking about the GTA-Series. The most recent GTA is rated 18. Why shouldn't adults be allowed to play these games?

Herrmann: From a cinema-owner I can expect that he actually only lets people over 18 years in. But if we're talking about Computer games its different. If an 18-year-old has a game, the next day he'll pass it to 17-, 16- and 15-year-olds. I don't believe that there's an entitlement for these games in our liberal society. The protection of children and the youth must be a priority. Its not about the playing [of these games] alone. There are numerous studies that explicitly prove: the more intensive teenagers engage themselves in these games, the higher the danger of them imitating this [behavior] in reality.

ZEIT ONLINE: Media-scientists haven't found common ground on that issue, though.

Herrmann: The criminologist Christian Pfeiffer provided corresponding evidence from his studies at our expert-round in Berlin. Of course not every player becomes a violent criminal. But even if games only cause a rise of a certain percentage in youth-violence it is reason enough to outlaw them. In other fields we also have clear bans, I'm thinking of child pornography.

ZEIT ONLINE: Still, the problem isn't that these games exist, but that children can still acquire them in spite of the German age-restrictions.

Herrmann: That is one of the problems. But the bigger the danger of such games getting to the hands of children and teenagers the more the state has to intervene. It is also forbidden for everyone to trivialize the crimes of the national-socialists.

ZEIT ONLINE:  However the [indexing] that exists today is in fact equivalent to a ban. For example indexed games can't be advertised.

Herrmann: That's not enough. Games that glorify brutal violence must generally be banned in penal law.

ZEIT ONLINE: The penal law already outlaws glorification of violence. A Bavarian draft for a new paragraph didn't find consent in Bundestag [German parliament, a bit similar to the House of Reps]. Also after six years of discussion the youth-protection-law was changed – and some say it wasn't even tightened. Do you really think a ban is possible?

Herrmann: We won't peg away at that, we want to continue this discussion. With the totally insufficient changes of the youth-protection-law this isn't concluded for us.

ZEIT ONLINE: The games-industry would call such a ban unconstitutional.

Herrmann: I'm very much hoping for a change of opinion there. Even today there are manufacturers that completely abandon the violence field. They want to make intelligent games, educational games, and many other fascinating things.

ZEIT ONLINE: But a number of manufacturers earn their money with games containing violence.

Herrmann: There's massive pressure from U.S. manufacturers. But we also do not have a different weapons law than America for no reason – over here not everybody can walk around at will with a firearm. We mustn't let certain aberrations of American society gain influence here.

GP readers Soldat Louis and David Ziegler report that in the wake of the Zeit Online interview, German magazine PC Games called on gamers to conduct a massive mail campaign to CSU leadership by way of protesting Herrmann's implication that violent game players are potential killers. The CSU responded with a press release calling for an urgent ban, and dismissed the gamer protest.

Apparently some younger officials of the CSU and other parties have voiced opposition to Herrmann's proposed violent game ban, which is an interesting development.

 


Comments

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

An example for social sciences against video games from Germany: http:www.erziehungswissenschaft.uni-tuebingen.de/Personal/Dateien_Huber__Guenter_L_/Vortraege_Huber__Guenter_L_/index.html

Huber, G. L. (2008). The world according to players of "killer games" - a constructivist approach to player thinking. Presentation at the Conference of the Center for Qualitative Psychology on "Epistemologies in Qualitative Research“, Oulu, Finland, February, 29 - March, 2, 2008

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

I think it's only a political reason why he said, that he wants to ban these games... he won't do that, I'm quite sure! But I've another question! Have politicians notion of "Killer Games" in other countries? In Germany definitely not! (ok there are some exeptions, but not much...) I remember, that i've seen a video, in which a german politician is talking about World of Warcraft, but the game he described was Battlefield 1942...

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Yeah you´re damn right about that. But the main problem is that none of that politics have ever spend just one minute an play one of that games by them selfs. How can they blame something what they don´t know? I´m pretty sure that not one of them ever see such a killer game with his own eyes. And I´m pretty sure that the CSU defently want to ban the development and selling them in stores! 

I´m sure, cause i life in bavaria.

Cheers

H3PA80R

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Not the first Bavarian politician to go after the "GAMES KILL" vote without knowing jack, won't be the last, won't make a difference.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Thousands and thousands more young people been killed because of alcohol related deaths.  No doubt many got beer or alcohol from their 18 year old friends.  Should we ban beer?  Eh, you nazi asshole?  Yeah, suggest to germans that they ban beer.  Good luck.  Fucktard.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

A 16 year old in Germany needn't get beer from an 18 year old friend, he can just buy it himself, whereas in the US (at least parts of it, I don't really know), the 18 year old would still be 3 years too young. This difference in standards is fascinating.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

But in some states it is legal to give your 18 year old friend the beer.  Yay for loopholes.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

We Americans suck at doing things in moderation, that's why alcohol's age limit is higher

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Funny thing is:

1. Most of the extreme violent games have already massive restrictions in Germany.  They can only sold from under the counter, cannot be promoted or advertised and are not allowed to be even mentioned their in magazines. Doom 3 would be D***3 or something.

2. We also have a rating system. Games are rated as 12+, 16+ , 18+ and the like. But shop owners often don't care about this and sell them regardless of age and law.

3. There are often special german versions of games. Here are some examples: dead bodys vanishing after a short time, no blood, green blood, no ragdoll physics, bots instead of humans (i remember playing Halflife and came around a corner just to overhear a conversation of two bots what they want to do after their shift or something. Totally ruined the fun.), Cutscenes altered and/or cutted, no nazi insignia and swastikas (even if you are playing AGAINST nazis. Note:2 years ago there was a young man sued for having a button with a outcrossed swastika)

4. The kids are smart enough to get the games imported from Austria or just suck them from the net.

 

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

still interested in mr. pfeiffers studies?

anyhow you can find some of them on the webpage of his institute: http://www.kfn.de/Publikationen/KFN-Forschungsberichte.htm

unfortunately they are only available in german. sorry for that.

 

greetings from germany

 

 

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Hmm, that's interesting. When he's writing about it, he seems quite reasonable and moderate. Pfeiffer must be the only person on the planet, that grossly misrepresents his own research. The man should stop giving interviews and talks.

On the other hand, I just came across a paragraph, where he blames bad grades on violent media. Apparently, consuming violent content causes serious emotional distress, which causes kids to lose sleep, which in turn leads to bad results in school - they can't concentrate and memorize stuff because they didn't get enough sleep. I'd really like to see the questions, this survey is based on (they weren't published), but I highly doubt, that "How do you sleep at night?" was one of them

EDIT

OK, geht this: Development of criminal behaviour and assorted factors in this behaviour over the last ten years.
Youth violence is down, consumption of violent media is up - Pfeiffer's own data. Now, what to make of this?

On the one hand, it is possible, that consumption of media does not affect violent behaviour, so that the two trends could develop in opposite directions. As this hypothesis is theoretically and empirically questionable, another explanation seems more appropriate: Had media consumption developped as positively as the other factors, we could possibly have seen an even bigger decrease in violent behaviour; i.e. the excessive media consumption could have had a limiting influence on the development of violent behaviour.

Remember, how I mentioned earlier, that he seems to start research with the result?

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

*sigh*

Once in a while, it's a good idea to return to the basics of the argument, rather than addressing the specific points.

These people talk about banning violent media, but they really don't understand the full ramifications of what they're saying. Violence - in all its myriad forms - is a cornerstone of storytelling. From the bloody slaughter known as Macbeth, to the comical violence of the Three Stooges, to the sanitized violence in the Star Wars movies, to gruesome movies like Saw and Hostel, it is difficult to get away from violence as a key element in storytelling.

Conflict is one of the most basic elements of storytelling (both fictional and true). While it is possible to tell stories that don't involve any sort of conflict at all, those stories are few and far between, and most are generally uninteresting to the masses. Soap operas and sitcoms THRIVE on conflict. And violence is the most easily-grasped form of conflict - it is direct, easily-understood, and generally has a swift conclusion.

Attempting to ban violent media completely (yes, I know nobody is talking about banning ALL violent media, but Herrmann comes much closer than anyone else I've seen, even moreso than Thompson) would essentially cripple creativity altogether. There are very few story elements that are so critical to so much. Even cartoons have a great deal of violence - heck, even DISNEY cartoons have a lot of violence (although Disney usually casts the violence-prone characters as villains).

So, we're not actually talking about banning all violent media. But if there's not a hard line drawn, it starts getting harder and harder to justify the ban. How much is too much? What constitutes, "too violent?" For any law of this nature to be fair, it would have to be written so that the same items were banned no matter who it was that was following the law to determine what SHOULD be banned. Is such a law even possible?

And if he really wants to ban violence, he should start working to eliminate Soccer/Football. Man, you fans are a bloody bunch! ;)

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

WWCKD?

 

What would Colonel Klink do?

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

I guess if politicans are going to say that Violent Videogames (even sex games) are going to make gamers more voilent, then we should all pull the Discrimination card saying that these statements are discriminating to our culture. much like how saying the N world is offencive to Affrican Americans. That will be the only way we would be able to show our voice in a strong way. Also how is seeing someone play these games makes people know if the gamers are going to be violent at all???? Perhaps we should all just chill out even the politicians and Anti-gamers.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Well, if this guy wants to have everything that is potentially harmful banned, then there is only one thing to do: We must kill everything on the planet.  Plants?  You could choke on them.  Burn them all.  Animals destroy living plants to eat them, get hurt, and kill each other for food, territory, and mates, so we need to kill them too.  Lastly, humans are the source of a ton of bad stuff.  We are responsible for killing animals, plants, and each other, not to mention we're totally responsible global warming (I invoked global warming, so I must be right).  I say we just tell every country with long-range missiles to launch a worldwide coordinated strike so that we kill every form of life on the planet and end all suffering.  Problem solved!

Of course, what I have suggested in the above paragraph is lunacy and should never be attempted.  My point is that the only way to end potential harm is to end all life.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

"Death solves all problems.  No man, no problem." -Joseph Stalin

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Too bad Stalin killed for the hell of it. Should've made better use of his resources.

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Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Excellent point.

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Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Anyone notics that when ever there talk about Games being banned in other countries, JT always thinks he can help out?

 

Jack, You live in America, Not Germany or Thailand. And stay out of Canada We Canadian Gamers don't want you here.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

This guy should chill out.

Nobody likes a sour Kraut.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

"I don't believe that there's an entitlement for these games in our liberal society."

The entire point of a liberal society is to ensure maximum freedoms to everyone, these games DO have an entitlement in a liberal society, they have EXACTLY as much entitlement to exist as his precious little bible.

What he is describing is a nanny state, a facist society. These conservatives have no clue about what freedom and liberty really mean. They think they are promoting these ideals, but when they go deeper into what they want, they describe facism.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Restrictions on entertainment? In a liberal society? What piffle!

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

It's funny how JT makes it sound as though the rest of the country is as obsessive about this issue as he is. Sure, alot of people don't want video games in the hands of kids, but most down to earth people realize that the affects on them aren't as major as ass-hats like Thompson make them out to be. Most people have bigger things to worry about in this world.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

If, on the off-chance Mr. Thompson is still reading this page, I'd like to answer his question. Here is my answer: Because you're full of shit?

~You Could Be Mine, But You're Way Out Of Line..~

~You Could Be Mine, But You're Way Out Of Line..~

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

that why you should not listen to poles that

 

1 could be bias

2. dont have how many people they poled

3 say that 60 percent of the pole said they wanted to ban with it

Jack jack jack dont worry be happy so you can relax in two week have some free time ya know go on a vaction and leave us and the gaming indursty alone

and plz if you have vaction plz plz dont go to oklahoma.\

Thanks

Zaruka

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

He can stay the hell out of Michigan too. I know I don't want him in my state again

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

GP: Attention, Shadow Darkman...

I've removed the remark you made here.

Don't post anything like that again, or I will ban you. Please follow our comments policy.

 



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I AM DOOMED TO HAUNT JACK THOMPSON'S DREAMS UNTIL HIS CRUSADE AGAINST VIDEO GAMES ENDS.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

*Facepalm*

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

He's like a plague, isn't he? Tries to sweep across the nation, and eventually the world.

-Remember kids, personal responsibility is for losers! For information on games and psychology, look up: Jonathan Freedman(2002)Block & Crain(2007) Just to name a few...

Reality/////////////////////////////////////Fantasy. Seems like a pretty thick line to me...

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

In many ways he thinks his actions have some sort of effect in every single level of human society.

The cynical side of videogames (spanish only): http://thelostlevel.blogspot.com/ My DeviantArt Page (aka DeviantCensorship): http://www.darkknightstrikes.deviantart.com/

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

You live in Oklahoma? Cool. So do I.

E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

What part of OK, EZK? I have a friend who lives there too.

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I AM DOOMED TO HAUNT JACK THOMPSON'S DREAMS UNTIL HIS CRUSADE AGAINST VIDEO GAMES ENDS.



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I AM DOOMED TO HAUNT JACK THOMPSON'S DREAMS UNTIL HIS CRUSADE AGAINST VIDEO GAMES ENDS.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

I think the lists of those polled is only available to you if you are a victim of an international conspircay ring which my or may not include the US Open golf champions... how long is that list now, Whacko?

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Regarding the 60% thing that Jackoff brought up, how large was the group that was polled?

 

 

-Remember kids, personal responsibility is for losers! For information on games and psychology, look up: Jonathan Freedman(2002)Block & Crain(2007) Just to name a few...

Reality/////////////////////////////////////Fantasy. Seems like a pretty thick line to me...

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Not very large I imagine. I didn't reve hear of it until GP reported it.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

They never released that. Nor did they release the questionaire, the methodology or any relevent data gleaned from the study.

They just released the results stating that ~60% of Americans were for government regulation of games.

E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Which basically points to a "they're full of it" assumption.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

It aint makin news on RTL, ZDF or ARD. It aint Aktuell

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Jack the 60% were prob the parents who are TOO DAMN LAZY to look after their kids so they want BIG BROTHER to. 

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

I'm a whacko?  Excuse me.  Dennis McCauley reported in the last four months that more than 60% of the American people want Congress to regulate the content in video games.  That's censorship, moron, and that is what Americans want because the moral midgets in the video game industry, like the porn-to-kids idiot Strauss Zelnick, won't get serious about their age ratings.

So, the American people (60% of them, which you say is a minority, a dying breed) want the government to shut this little charade down.  What the blank did you expect, genius, when the industry told the vast majority of Americans to stick their concerns in their ears?  Jack Thompson

 

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

"What the blank did you expect, genius, when the industry told the vast majority of Americans to stick their concerns in their ears?  Jack Thompson"

 

The Constitution doesn't bow down to popular and/or ignorant opinions.  For a so called First Amendment lawyer you sure as hell don't seem to know a lot about it do you?

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Wrong again, Mr. Thompson. He said it was a fake poll.

Literacy: 5,000
John Bruce: 0

Come back when you've passed middle school both physically AND mentally.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

So which one are you really for? Just keeping M-rated games out of the hands of minors, or toning down the content? Regulating the content of a product and regulating the distribution of a product are two very different things. Make up your mind. You keep flipping back and forth between your intentions, just to suit the topic being discussed.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

I'm pretty sure his actual intent is to get violent games banned period, but he's settling for less because on all out ban would never fly in the US.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

60% statistic again, Jack?  Unscientific study, asking folks what to ban, not if something should be banned, if memory serves correctly.

But, we already know you love fake statistics, or reading things to support yourself.  You also love re-reading laws, combining them together to "support" your positions, and then repeat them over and over until someone else prints it without fact-checking first... then you start quoting them as a "reliable source".

Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock... career about over, Jack.  And stay out of Wisconsin.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

I'm a whacko?  Excuse me.  Dennis McCauley reported in the last four months that more than 60% of the American people want Congress to regulate the content in video games.

Dennis reported that nine months ago, moron. Anyone who thinks nine months ago was in the last four months is clearly a whacko.

60% of them, which you say is a minority, a dying breed

like how you call Christians "a minority, a dying breed"? You claim that you're being persecuted for your beliefs, yet only minorities can be victims of persecution. 78.5%, a vast majority, of U.S. citizens are Christian.

Oh, and by the way, that poll wasn't scientific, as at least 300 million U.S. citizens were not asked.

岩「…Ace beats Jack」

岩「…I can see why Hasselbeck's worried about fake guns killing fake people. afterall, she's a fake journalist on a fake news channel」

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Majorities can be persecuted too. Persecution flows from the top down, not the bottom up. That said, they usually aren't.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

It was a non scientific opinion poll. The questionaire was not published. The full data results were not published. The methods of gathering the opinions were not published. The only thing published from that "study" was the results. Hardly definitive proof.

So you are advocating censorship now? A while back, you said that you didn't advocate the censorship of speech. You just wanted to keep adult games out of the hands of minors. Now we find out that your opinion has changed. Now you want games censored.

Again, Read my post above. Once the game reaches the retailers, it is out of the games industry's hands.

E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

Also, I have seen you compare yourself ot Batman.

I'll have you know he was nearly banned completely thanks to people like you, people who said the exact same things you do about video games.

Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as

"That's censorship, moron, and that is what Americans want because the moral midgets in the video game industry, like the porn-to-kids idiot Strauss Zelnick, won't get serious about their age ratings."

What the hell constitutes getting serious to you, Jack? The game rating system already gives more information than movies, books, and comics, and the ESRB has done a bunch of PR spots explaining their rating system. The MPAA would do well to emulate them.

 
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