Although last week's report of a Dead Space ban may be spurious, violent video games continue to come under fire in Germany.
GamePolitics has heard from several European gamers who have cited anti-game comments made by Bavarian Interior Minister Joachim Herrmann (left) to Zeit Online. Herrmann, a member of the conservative Christian Social Union (CSU), refers to violent games as Killerspiele (killer games). Big thanks to ECA forum member felix-reichert who has very graciously provided a translation of the interview:
ZEIT ONLINE: Mr. Herrmann, which "Killergames" have you played to come to the belief that they must be banned?
Joachim Herrmann: I personally don't play, but I have watched them [being played] extensively. I am shocked how the player is driven towards gruesome violence. He, so to speak, becomes a criminal himself and kills others to obtain money or to collect points. The more gruesome the killing the higher the score. We don't need something like this. Such games are unbearable.
ZEIT ONLINE: Obviously you are talking about the GTA-Series. The most recent GTA is rated 18. Why shouldn't adults be allowed to play these games?
Herrmann: From a cinema-owner I can expect that he actually only lets people over 18 years in. But if we're talking about Computer games its different. If an 18-year-old has a game, the next day he'll pass it to 17-, 16- and 15-year-olds. I don't believe that there's an entitlement for these games in our liberal society. The protection of children and the youth must be a priority. Its not about the playing [of these games] alone. There are numerous studies that explicitly prove: the more intensive teenagers engage themselves in these games, the higher the danger of them imitating this [behavior] in reality.
ZEIT ONLINE: Media-scientists haven't found common ground on that issue, though.
Herrmann: The criminologist Christian Pfeiffer provided corresponding evidence from his studies at our expert-round in Berlin. Of course not every player becomes a violent criminal. But even if games only cause a rise of a certain percentage in youth-violence it is reason enough to outlaw them. In other fields we also have clear bans, I'm thinking of child pornography.
ZEIT ONLINE: Still, the problem isn't that these games exist, but that children can still acquire them in spite of the German age-restrictions.
Herrmann: That is one of the problems. But the bigger the danger of such games getting to the hands of children and teenagers the more the state has to intervene. It is also forbidden for everyone to trivialize the crimes of the national-socialists.
ZEIT ONLINE: However the [indexing] that exists today is in fact equivalent to a ban. For example indexed games can't be advertised.
Herrmann: That's not enough. Games that glorify brutal violence must generally be banned in penal law.
ZEIT ONLINE: The penal law already outlaws glorification of violence. A Bavarian draft for a new paragraph didn't find consent in Bundestag [German parliament, a bit similar to the House of Reps]. Also after six years of discussion the youth-protection-law was changed – and some say it wasn't even tightened. Do you really think a ban is possible?
Herrmann: We won't peg away at that, we want to continue this discussion. With the totally insufficient changes of the youth-protection-law this isn't concluded for us.
ZEIT ONLINE: The games-industry would call such a ban unconstitutional.
Herrmann: I'm very much hoping for a change of opinion there. Even today there are manufacturers that completely abandon the violence field. They want to make intelligent games, educational games, and many other fascinating things.
ZEIT ONLINE: But a number of manufacturers earn their money with games containing violence.
Herrmann: There's massive pressure from U.S. manufacturers. But we also do not have a different weapons law than America for no reason – over here not everybody can walk around at will with a firearm. We mustn't let certain aberrations of American society gain influence here.
GP readers Soldat Louis and David Ziegler report that in the wake of the Zeit Online interview, German magazine PC Games called on gamers to conduct a massive mail campaign to CSU leadership by way of protesting Herrmann's implication that violent game players are potential killers. The CSU responded with a press release calling for an urgent ban, and dismissed the gamer protest.
Apparently some younger officials of the CSU and other parties have voiced opposition to Herrmann's proposed violent game ban, which is an interesting development.
Comments
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
Hmmm, I stand corrected then. It's just that with many foreign countries, Europe in particular, I constantly see a lot of parties that place their religious identity right in the title of said party. The only US party I have found that does that is the...CHRISTIAN FALANGIST PARTY OF AMERICA. Yeah, I've never heard of them either until I Googled it.
Of course you can always make the argument that, despite the lack of religious titles in the party names, religion plays a heavy role in American politics.
Honestly, I'm surprised the evangelicals havn't formed their own party yet. (Yes yes, "It's called the Republican party". We've heard it before. :) )
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
If you're interested in an external point of view: Religion seems to be much more important in American politics than it is in Germany. Also, "it's less important, because no party has "christian" in its name" sounds like a really ridiculous argument.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
No, you're pretty much correct. Religion plays a huge role in American politics with both parties. In order to become President, the candidate pretty much has to prove his religious cred otherwise he's got no hope of getting elected. Hell when Kennedy became President it was a MASSIVE issue (so massive, it warrants the all caps :) ) that he was Catholic.
You misunderstand what I ment by the political parties having Christian in their name, though perhaps I didn't word it properly. Here, I'll clarify a bit; you don't see very many American parties advertising their religious point of view directly in the title of their respected party. While it doesn't mean their spiritual view isn't important or central to their platform it is a little less...abrasive I guess you could say.
For example, you see two guys walking down the street. One is wearing normal street clothes, the other has a huge cross around his neck and is wearing a "Jesus Saves!" t-shirt. Now which one would you think is the fanatic? The one with the cross obviously since he is advertising his spiritual viewpoint to the world. Just because he's advertising it, though, doesn't mean he is actually the fanatic. For all you know, the normal looking guy might be the one more willing to kill you in the name of Jesus.
So when I see a political party advertise their religious leaning right in their party name, I figure that that party is a little fanatical. Now I've grown up in a different culture so I'm also on the outside looking in as it were, but why would someone want to place the word "Christian" in the name of their political party unless they wanted to go "Hey, look at us! We're all Christians and our political viewpoints are all based on Christian principals!"
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
"You could have Jesus himself come down and say gaming is alright, and he'll just shrug and say Jesus' gone soft."
He is a christian, why should he believe what some jewish guy tells him?
The Republican party has changed drastically...
When I joined the Republican party in 1988, they were not the "right wing christian sympathizer" group like they are now. The Republicans USED to be for smaller government and other things, but right wing christians managed to hijack the party and now you've got the situation like it is. I switched to the Libertarian party because I still believe in the voting concept.
There was a video on MSNBC recenly interviewing people on why they were with the Republican party and most of the people they interviewed either (1)were just plain ignorant or (2)were talking like things were still in 1988.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
'he , so to speak, becomes a criminal himself and kills others to obtain money or to collect points.'
ok so since when were all gamers male? point number one in which he shows his clear lack of understanding, lack of research and bias..
But the bigger the danger of such games getting to the hands of children and teenagers the more the state has to intervene.
Once again, see the point above. The 'danger' is purely speculative at best. Tell you what Ban all smoking and alcohol, with proven dangerous effect, and have PROOF of the relationship between games and violence, then come back to me with that one.
'That's not enough. Games that glorify brutal violence must generally be banned in penal law.'
um ... they MUST? firstly, who says they MUST? and does he mean 'all media forms' that glorify brutal violence must generally be banned in penal law' or just games? if so .. please explain the the difference.
'If an 18-year-old has a game, the next day he'll pass it to 17-, 16- and 15-year-olds'
As somebody who 'personally doesn''t play' i find that bizaare statement very hard to swallow. Firstly how would he know? and secondly, as somebody who DOES play MANY games.. i have NEVER played a game, then 'given' it to a 17, 16 or 15 year old. WHY WHY WHY would i spend up to £50 on a game and the next day GIVE IT AWAY???
'The criminologist Christian Pfeiffer provided corresponding evidence from his studies'
If by 'corresponding' he means there was a corellation, then his point is moot. that means nothing. Just becase violent people are drawn to violent media does NOT mean there is a causation type relationship running the opposite way between violent games CAUSING violent behaviour.
It is also forbidden for everyone to trivialize the crimes of the national-socialists.
ok.. thanks for the random fact that had nothing do do with the question. Why try and associate nazis with games for some strange reason?
I don't believe that there's an entitlement for these games in our liberal society
Thats fine, and as a parent that eould be your right. It isnt your right to tell me what i can and cannot have access to because 'you dont believe' in it.
' I personally dont play but i have watched them being played extensively'
right... so that makes you an expert then? so because i watch formula one, i can engineer/race/ build formula one cars? Sadly no.
There are numerous studies that explicitly prove: the more intensive teenagers engage themselves in these games, the higher the danger of them imitating this [behavior] in reality.
Actually there aren't many that show a causation atall. And for every one that allegedly does, there is another proving the exact opposite. The research area, as stated by the interviewer , isnt one with a global agreed conclusion.
He, so to speak, becomes a criminal himself and kills others to obtain money or to collect points. The more gruesome the killing the higher the score. We don't need something like this. Such games are unbearable
Im sorry but if you are talking about GTA, thats ONE game. Dont try and pretend that ALL games are like that. And please quit with the points thing, and can i just ask.. how on earth does the player ' become a criminal to kill others'. Firstly no crimes are commited since by definition they involve REAL humans, and again nobody is killed since there is no los of life.
Additionally i HATE how a game is portrayed as 2 lines of ' its a game of killing raping pillaging etc' despite the fact that (if it is GTA he is talking about) that is just a very small part of the 'game' , and in the context of a far larger very complex and actually quite sophisticated narrative. Its like saying the godfather is about ' shooting people for fun'. Its not. Thats a GROSS misevaluation of the purpose behind the film based on the inclusion of a particular event (shooting) in the context of a far larger story/purpose.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
Firstly no crimes are commited since by definition they involve REAL humans, and again nobody is killed since there is no los of life.
If I may add to this point, the "humans" in these games are little more than graphics controlled by computer data; they're products of machines, and nothing more. That's why most gamers are quicker to cap some random faceless thug in GTA: THE THUG IS NOT REAL. There is no moral barrier to stop the player from pulling the trigger. Blow his head off, loot his pockets, be on your way, no harm done.
Replace the random thug with a live human, and that moral barrier appears. That's somebody's loved one; if they die, you will have to live with it for the rest of your life. You'll have to live with the guilt of taking another person's life. You'll eventually have to face that person's friends and family who only know you as the person that killed their friend or relative. You'll serve time in prison, and maybe come out with a criminal record and a tarnished name that'll haunt you until the day you die.
Believe it or not folks, but gamers DO have a fully functional sense of morals and reality. It's just going to be winter in hell before politicians and media pundits realize it.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
Your point about all gamers being male was a problem of translation.
In german, the gamer (der Spieler) is a male noun, so I just translated it like that.
Would have probably been better to translate it like this:
"one, so to speak, becomes..."
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
ahhh no worries!
oh btw thanks loads for the translation it is really apreciated! :)
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
Ah yes has to get in a bash of American culture. What a cretin. His culture has not exactly produced the best in people in last few hundred years.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
Eh ... Herrmann dosn´t represent the position of whole germany. There is no relation between the past of germany and this nonsense from J. Herrmann. I´m sure that the majority will be enraged because of his claim. Casually I know some german "Killer Game"-Players and they would support this campaign against "Gamekillers" like Herrmann, if the would live in Bayern. Unfortunately they do not, but they will do their very best to aid this campaign!
So long.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
Low blow, dude.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
Despite that, he is right.
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I AM DOOMED TO HAUNT JACK THOMPSON'S DREAMS UNTIL HIS CRUSADE AGAINST VIDEO GAMES ENDS.
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I AM DOOMED TO HAUNT JACK THOMPSON'S DREAMS UNTIL HIS CRUSADE AGAINST VIDEO GAMES ENDS.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
What was that law again? Something about every internet discussion eventually leading to a mention of Hitler.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
Godwin's Law - Any message board conversation that goes on long enough will eventually draw a comparison to Hitler or Nazis. This usually means you lost the argument.
However, in this case we are discussing Germany and they do have a lot of laws influenced by Hitler and the Nazis, the article mention one of them. The comparison is valid and is an interesting point in the german governments way of thinking. They tend to outlaw or shun things that remind them of WW2 and Germany's involvement.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
"They tend to outlaw or shun things that remind them of WW2 and Germany's involvement."
Wrong.
Be assured, there is plenty of remembering going on in Germany. The Holocaust and WW2 are extensively covered in school for multiple years, on numerous occasions. There's not a single day of the week without a documentary about some aspect of the Nazi regime or the war on some TV channel, there are many commemoration days, mommorials and public ceremonies for the war, the Holocaust and their victims - and yes, it's made very clear that the Germans were the bad guys.
So in short, the whole "Don't mention the war!"-theme is utter bullshit. Instead, the restrictive laws regarding Nazism and, for example, displaying the swastika in public, were enacted to prevent Nazis from ever coming to power again. It might suprise you, but today's Germany is one of the most fervently anti-facist countries worldwide (just ask Daniel Goldhagen).
I've got a principal problem with any law restricting free speech, too. But please, don't go around telling this "the Germans don't want to be reminded about the war"-bullshit.
And no, the comparision is not valid. The CSU might be a party full of conservative, censorship-endorsing pricks - but they're not Nazis just because the're german.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
"Godwin's Law - Any message board conversation that goes on long enough will eventually draw a comparison to Hitler or Nazis. This usually means you lost the argument."
Losing the argument has nothing at all to do with Godwin's law, which is strictly a statistical statement about the likelihood of Hitler or Nazis being mentioned as an online discussion gains more posts.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
There are different customs on different boards, and some say that once Godwin's Law is invoked that side loses the argument. Sometimes they'll even lock the thread. Others don't do anything.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled blog comments.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
I didn't know I can get more points or any points in GTA if I perform more gruesome acts in game.
Now, I don't see how this guy can sit there as a "cinema owner" and not see the similarities between parents allowing kids to play these games and parents allowing kids to watch mature rated materials in theatres or in the comfort of their own home when such movies come out on DVD.
Looks like it's no different in any country, parents are too irresponsible to watch over their own kids and rather have it banned instead through the means of complete ignorance and propaganda.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
If he expects to get points for crazy displays of killing, he should only be thinking of "Devil May Cry 4".
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
And even then, that game really isn't that violent for an M-rated game. If it weren't for the cutscenes, it very well might've been rated T.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
"conservative Christian Social Union"
I stopped considering the man rational right there.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
Bet you five Jack's part of that.
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I AM DOOMED TO HAUNT JACK THOMPSON'S DREAMS UNTIL HIS CRUSADE AGAINST VIDEO GAMES ENDS.
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I AM DOOMED TO HAUNT JACK THOMPSON'S DREAMS UNTIL HIS CRUSADE AGAINST VIDEO GAMES ENDS.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
I love how some foreigners think every american is packing heat.
Re: In Germany, Politician Urges Ban on "Killer Games" as
Cuz we are