Is Killing in Video Games a Sin?
Is Killing in Video Games a Sin?
September 21, 2008
Violent video games are not quite sinful but can involved "departures from God's will," according to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod.
The issue was raised as a question by a reader of the Synod's website:
Q: I'm very sure that killing/suicide stealing and anything like that is not accounted as an actual sin if it's only in video games. But I'm still not very sure, when I play video games, I'm not murdering at heart because I would never try to take the life of any living thing. And whatever is a video game can't die because it's not alive in the first place, video games are a false alternate reality...
A: As normally defined, taking the life of another in video games (as in acting or in any other fantasy situation) is not a sin against God's prohibition to murder. If, however, what is done in the video game is an expression of hatred or callous disregard for human life, then the heart and motives are wrong, and then it is sin in God's eyes...
For the record, however, obsession with video games can involve other departures from God's will... Typically, this can involve a colossal misuse of valuable time and also end up diverting time and attention from more useful and valuable pursuits that better glorify God and serve our neighbor...
Comments
Regardless of your moral position, that goomba still needs to be stepped on.
It is a video game, not a real person, so I doubt he really cares. As long as you don't do the same thing in real life to someone.
God cares about what is in your heart. If you have evil in your heart, He knows it. Whether you act out that evil against other real people or not is irrelevant.
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
I thought this nutbag would have just quoted the "symbolic sin is still sin" and be done with it. At the end of the day he gets this from a book that glorifies ethnic clensing so this "god" character is quite the hypocrite.
Quite indubitably so.
There's a god?
And these guys right here put the importance of "Glorfying God" before "serving our neighbor." That shows you they have their hearts in the right place, not just blatent, political self-righteousness.
How on earth do you justify that? Its a church equvielnt of saying "maximise shareholder value" comes before "delivering quality products to consumers!
hmm, that bit at the end about how video games "end up diverting time and attention from more useful and valuable pursuits that better glorify God and serve our neighbor" is a bit off the mark. IMO any time you spend having fun is time well spent. plus, wouldn't inviting a couple friends over for a video game marathon or even just playing an mmo "serving your neighbor" in a sense?
Technically playing an MMO is a self-regarding action because you're concerned with improving your character, building up a bigger reputation etc.
I disagree on your other point too - games are fun but in moderation. If it's all you do you are sort of wasting your life.
I'm sorry, but the same book that attempts to make this point is also the same book that has several instances of genocide in its pages. You don't really need a book as a moral compass- more often than not, it's no more or less valid than a person's individual opinion. The only difference is that if you think of an opinion, you're thinking for yourself.
And yes. Bowser isn't going to destroy himself. He's gonn' nail that Princess if you don't smoke his ass with barrage of fireballs.
Angry against religion much? Exactly what did your little rant have to do with the article at all, or what was said in it? The point is that killing people in video games isn't a sin. The point is that it is the individual's own personal responsibility, not to blame it on video games. Is that *not* exactly what people on this site have wanted to see a church organization say?
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
"Angry against religion much? Exactly what did your little rant have to do with the article at all, or what was said in it?"
My point is that people have turned to religion instead of developing their own sense of morals, and used their own personal interpretations to justify ridiculous things. Turning to religion over something like this is nigh on unnecessary.
By the way, real mature to come to a "angry at religion much" "counter-argument" as your first response. This has nothing to do with anger. This is like taking morphine for a skinned knee.
If you read the bible and end up with a justification for genocide, then you're doing it wrong.
Ah yes, because we are supposed to skip over stuff like Numbers 31. We are not really meant to read those pages express killing all adult males in a city is not enough, you have also kill innocent little boys and mothers and if you want, you are encouraged to keep the little girls as sex slaves 'you may keep them for yourselves'
Thats right, doing it right is ignoring those parts and pretend they dont exist.
I call bullshit.
That verse GLORIFIES ethnic clensing and mass child rape. And why apparently was it justified? Because they wern't racist and were entering mixed race relationships. So within a few verses we have glorified:
* Ethnic clensing
* Racism
* Child rape
* Segragation
All out of the alleged "good book". Theres alot more than just Numbers 31 as well.
Epic Fail!
Better time like going to church and giving us money!
That's exactly what I always say. And to add, how can they pretend to know god's will? Give me a break.
No need to pretend. God's will is written out, quite plainly, in the Bible. Written so a child can understand it.
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
And written so that an average person will become bored and uniterested quite fast.
Poor English translations not withstanding.
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
It may be written, but it's written by men, who had their own agendas, and likely edited quite a few times during history. Written in a way you can interpret almost anything any way you like, for any situation you want to apply.
Anyway, this could very easily turn into a flame war, so let's leave it at that, agreeing to disagree. I have no problem with anyone believing anything (even the Great Potato, if you will), as long as it don't interfere with me or the advancement of civilization.
A good example of using the Bible to further an agenda? King James Bible.
The phrase "those that poison" was changed to "witch". The passage about not suffering a witch to live did not exist, it was all about those that poison others. It was changed, you guessed it, to repress women and serve and agenda.
Ain't religion fun? (especially in the hands of bigots and racists and other assorted assholes)
hahaha, how about that the Jesus stories were taken from Egyptian stories, as well as the Noah flood, which as also taken from Babylonian and Sumerian religious books. If there were copyright laws since the beginning of time, the Bible would be in court for stealing stories.
I'm not going to question someone's religion directly, just the reliance that they make upon falsehoods.
The problem is the bible is quite inconsistant and when taken outside of it's historical context becomes meaningless.
Sure, a child can understand it, but a child will walk away with a very shallow understanding that is in many ways wrong and misses the point.
The bible is also filled with mutual exclusion so even if one DOES get it, they usually get to pick and choose which parts they are going to follow and which parts they are not, so it is less about God's will and more about making God a scapegoat for their own choices.
When- and how- the hell did 'God" pick up a pen, or run a printing press? Was he there for the editorial process? Were there any "creative liberties" taken?
The book is written by humans. Regardless of whether or not they were high or if the really WERE talking to "God", that doesn't mean there's no room for error or misinterpretation.
Thankyou.
Nice to see someone articulate the same thoughts I have on the subject.
The fact that the Jesus story came about after the Egyption 'Book of the Dead' was legally out of copyright should really tell you something
"copyright"? What ARE you talking about?
Woosh!
Plainly? How many translations and commentaries are there on the Bible?
To me, plainly means unambigous. There's plenty of ambiguity given the number of Biblical Scholars.
Unnecessarily insulting. If, let's say, I had a wife and kids, and spent 100% of my time I'm not at work, paying a MMO, and neglecting/ignoring my family, am I doing what is right? Isn't that a bit excessive and more than a little obsessive? Am I doing a service, or disservice to my family? That's the kind of thing that is being pointed out -- obsessing about something, anything -- beit video games, movies, sports, whatever, is not a healthy situation. It isn't saying that everyone obsesses, or even implying that. It merely is pointing out that the obsession isn't a good thing.
On the other point, it is saying that killing people in video games isn't a sin, unless in your heart you are sinning, but that is something between you and God to know, not something the Church is in an authority to decide.
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
I like how they place 'better glorify God' BEFORE 'serve our neighbour'.
Because that how they are always supposed to order it?
That is because Christ taught that the Greatest of all commandments is to love God with all your heart might mind and strenghth. The second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself.
E. Zachary Knight
http://www.editorialgames.com
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091
Yep, that's the summation of the 10 commandments.
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
@Anonymous
I think what was meant by that was not locking yourself in a room playing 10 hours a day by yourself.
Taking bets on how long until Jack is on here ranting again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I AM DOOMED TO HAUNT JACK THOMPSON'S DREAMS UNTIL HIS CRUSADE AGAINST VIDEO GAMES ENDS.
"If, however, what is done in the video game is an expression of hatred or callous disregard for human life, then the heart and motives are wrong, and then it is sin in God's eyes..."
So, cowboys and indians is a sinfull game, cops and robbers also. Many childhood games without using videogames are sinfull.
Unless it is God himself that orders you to kill.
Not at all, that is not what he is saying. If you are expressing hatred or callous disregard for human life in how you are playing it personally, that makes it a sin in God's eyes. The games themselves are not the problem, the responsibility is placed on the individual playing the game.
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
Is molesting children in real life still not a sin?
Anything that feels that good MUST be a sin.
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? The WELS is not the bloody Roman Catholic church.
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
The Catholics don't exactly have a monopoly on child rape you know. There are many reports of the same crimes from evangelical pastors, Anglican preists, etc. Protastants have the same issue too.
To be fair Christianity doesn't exactly have a monopoly on this issue either, schools and scouts also share this problem. The Catholic Church is an easy target because its so common due to their size and have had very high ranking figures participating in cover ups (the current pope in his last role included).
But dont think your non-catholic churches are free from paedophile preists and pastors. Baptists, pentecostals, methodists, evangelicals, anglicans have all had these sick f**k's under their banners so don't start getting all high and mighty.
Look at that Mormon sect that was busted earlier this year!
Another Fail!
My poin is that the initial argument was a fallacy. It would be like accusing all gamers as being rampant murderers because the Columbine guys happened to play DOOM. When you take specific situations and apply a blanket rule to a general population from it, you are little better than ol' Jackie boy.
However, I'm rapidly losing any faith or hope of a sane and mature discussion in this article, it seems instead religion bashing is on the platter, doesn't matter if the article was pointing out hat there is at least one church organization that happens to agree with gamers that Games aren't inherently evil. All that seems to matter is "religion is bad!" and I'm tired of it. Thanks to the people here, I'll probably just stop bothering with this site any further. It is a real shame that it has come to this.
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
You must be a nut case for taking this topic this serious, haha
Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, pot.
No, I'm just passive aggressive.
Also, the plain test editor has foiled me again.
It could be the overwelming number of religious people who are anti-games/gamers or at least their were untill churches heard about Halo and thought it was good wholesome cristian fun which i find ironic
United we Stand, Divided we fall.
"I'm not sure what inspires the overwhelming anti-religious sentiment among gamers"
Because religious people have the overwhelming tendency of not only being against video games in general, but also to force their views on others, and that's a real problem. Look at christian initiatives against gay marriage, to teach creationism in schools, or - to not only scorn christianity - muslims crying for censorship in Europe or sharia courts in the UK.
Listen, in private, you can believe what you want. You believe that the earth is 6000 years old, or that your soul comes from an alien being placed in a volcano 75 billion years ago? Fine by me - just don't force such ludicrous bullshit on me, ok?
Not all religious people are right-wing wingnuts. Just saying.
Actually, a great deal of us are moderates who believe in things like science and understand scripture in a very different matter than the biblical literalists who get all the press because they're, well, loud and crazy. For the record as a trained theologian I can say that the Earth is assuredly far more than 7,000 years old (science tells us that), homosexuality is a lot more complicated a topic than our media portrays the religious viewpoint (I personally don't feel it's a sin), and if you play video games you aren't damned to Hell.
The WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod) is a very conservative branch of Lutheran Christianity, not representative of 90% of Lutherans out there. Just like there are a ton of different Baptist organizations (not all of which are Biblical literalists) there are a lot of different sects of many denominations of Christianity. There are many different views on a great deal of issues. To say that all Christians are the same and push their views on others is like saying that all Republicans hate science (there ARE a couple that don't, I checked!) or that there is no difference between Shia and Sunni (thanks, Dubya).
In short, let's keep from broad generalizations, okay?
It actually has been the overwhelming anti-religious sentiment among the posters in this site's forums that have pushed me away from ever going to them again. The knee-jerk hatred and bile responses are more than just getting old, it is blatantly offensive, and daring anyone to try to stand up to it and get bashed for it. All more or less permitted without any real moderation or control, I just plain got fed up with it, which is a shame, because I did like this site's forums.
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
@DarkSaber
The idea there is that if you truly glorify God, then serving your neighbor will be a logical result. In the Christian worldview, God is the ultimate authority, so primary allegiance goes to him. Following God's commands should then come from a desire to follow his will.
@DoggySpew
What they're saying is that your mental state is a determinant in whether or not your actions in-game are a sin. Matthew 5:28 says "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." The gist is that by focusing your mind on doing sinful things, you create sinful patterns of thought. By keeping your mind away from doing sinful things, you are more likely to refrain from sinning intentionally.
trouble is that I find that passage to be utterly retarded
United we Stand, Divided we fall.
The article is directed to a Christian audience, and they are assumed to be attempting to follow God's commands and the teachings of the Bible. Thus, the passage has applicability to this article and to Christians. If you are not a Christian, you are not the main intended audience, and are also not expected to be following Christian standards.
If you are saying that as a Christian, though, I would suggest praying and contemplating why you think that way about the passage.
Matthew 5:28 says "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
That verse is one of the verses that just show Jesus of Nazarath was just plain out evil. Trying to set up a totalitarian dictatorship by making up impossible standards "so you need to be saved". What an asshole!
Thus, this is why I'm athiest :)
Agreed.
You're an atheist because Christians say stupid things? Wow, I can't imagine the trouble you have being a human. ;)
Sadly no of us can denounce that.
If you play chess, you are killing people like in warfare. Is that murder?
I always thought the pieces were captured
岩「…Ace beats Jack」
For advanced interrogation techniques?
They Chessboard them ;)
As the W.E.L.S. is the synod I am a member of, I am glad to see a very simple position on this -- violent video games aren't inherently sinful, rather than using the stndard scapegoat, the synod is basically placing the responsibility on the individual player for his or her own actions.
The rest of it is a pretty cut and dry, standard concept that basiclly obsessing over video games, like obsessing over anything, is generally not a good thing.
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
Does the bible go into the "anything" group?
I'd like to point out something that grinds my gears when the "Video Games are a waste of time" card gets played.
How is sitting in front of the TV for three hours playing, say, Forza 2 any more of a time waster than watching a Football game for the same ammount of time? But you never hear anything about viewing sports making Jesus cry.
That is an interesting assumption to make, for all you know he has told some just that. I bet he has told more than one person that missing church for a Sunday football game is bad.
He does, in that very same article. The complete answer is listed in the link, and includes this little bit:
"The same, of course, is true of a lot of forms of entertainment or diversions from useful labor or education (e.g., watching TV, movies, constantly listening to music but doing little other than that)."
I don't have any problem with what this guy said, really, it just being misunderstood by a lot of people. Obsession with an form of entertainment is generally not a good thing.
While I personally agree with where they're coming from, I think they're ignoring one key fact about video games that negates whatever point they're trying to make.
The people in any video game are not real, living people that are going to care if you kill them or not. They are artificial constructs composed of graphics and code, generated by a hunk of circuits housed in a shiny plastic and/or metal case and projected onto TV screen. Any action they take for, against, or as a result of a player's actions are prescripted by a programmer and initiated by the same hardware responsible for their mere existence. They are robots made of code, nothing more.
The Bible covers interactions with real, flesh-and-blood human beings, not interactions with inanimate, graphics-and-computer-code constructs. That said, I believe that killing people in a video game is no more of a sin than cramming a firecracker up a Tickle-Me Elmo's butt and lighting it off just for kicks or putting a Furby into a microwave just to watch him melt. They're inanimate objects, they're not going to care what happens to them.
Now, I will agree that too much is bad for you. In moderation, video games are a great way to have fun with friends, but in excess, they can guarantee that you won't have many friends to have fun with, online or off. This is speaking from personal experience; too much gaming can ruin you.
Here's a question for you, though. What if a horrible racist were to get a hold of Resident Evil 5, and play the game, and then imagine that the zombies aren't actually zombies. He hates black people, and therefore imagines that he's killing normal people while he mows down zombies, takes pleasure from the thought.
Would you find that to be sinful behavior? And even if you didn't, would you find it odd for others to view it as sinful behavior?
In a nutshell? Yes, I would view that as sinful.
If the player is shooting people in a video game, in and of itself, the act is not sinful, as there is nobody being sinned against. Everyone he's shooting is little more than a graphic running on code; odds are good that's all he sees when he pulls the trigger.
In your example, the person killing people in a game is still not a sin in and of itself. However, his motives behind the "killings" are sinful; he's using the game characters as effegies against real people. Therein lies the sin; because he is using the game characters to take out his hatred toward (in this case) black people, there is now someone to sin against: black people.
As long as there's no person connected to a certain character, there is nobody to sin against, therefore, no sin is committed in killing him. It's when that character is associated with a real person in the player's mind that the killing becomes a sin, because now there's a real person that can be sinned against involved.
Now, multiplayer can be placed in the same light, except the concept is reversed; there IS someone to sin against, but any "sin" taking place is directed toward the avatars, not the players controlling them. Go watch a Halo match on Youtube; players are laughing and cutting up with each other, even while their avs are getting headshotted. Nobody's trying to kill anybody, here. It's all in the spirit of competition, just like hitting someone with a ball in dodgeball or pelting someone with paint in paintball.
I believe that was what the guy was trying to get at with his answer. That when people take real-life hatreds and apply them to their actions in the game, it becomes a problem. At least that's how I understood his words.
Exactly, only you, and God knows what is in your heart, or what is your motivation. If it is filled with hate and anger, it really doesn't matter what you are doing, that hate and anger makes it wrong. But, the church, or really, anyone living in this world really cannot make that judgment call, it is something personal between you and God, nothing more.
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
"The people in any video game are not real, living people that are going to care if you kill them or not. They are artificial constructs composed of graphics and code, generated by a hunk of circuits housed in a shiny plastic and/or metal case and projected onto TV screen."
Who is to say that is not what this existence is?
Then I choose to remain blissfully ignorant!
Lol. God's to busy ignoring the real world to care about one does in a video game.
I'd have to say no. Igorning all the anti-religion that's going on in this thread, I'll just point it out plain and simple. The people in video games like GTA or Saint's Row are not real, so honestly, I'd have to say no.
Whether or not those people in the video game are real is immaterial. The motivations and path your heart and mind are taking while playing the game, that is what is important. I personally have no problem with slapping in a GTA or Res. Evil game and blowing people/creatures away in it -- I bear no hatred or animosity in my heart for it, as I know it is a game, and that is part of the game. If I was filled with hate, and for some reason hated the monsters in the game (it is, after all, a game, right? Seems a bit silly to hate some batch of pixels...), and was doing it, the hate would be wrong.
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
I'd still have to say no. Pixels are not living things, so I'd still have to say doing things against them still can't be considered a sin.
If killing in games is a sin, then what about starting endless wars in the middle east for fun and profit?
But the point is that it isn't a sin. Contrary to the fundamentalist Bible-thumping whackos (of which, the WELS is not a part) who believe the Bible is against violence, the truth of the matter is it isn't. The Bible is against murder, which is a very specific kind of killing -- killing someone else for personal gain (like, killing someone because you hate that person and feel you'd be better off without him or her still being alive). Heck, the Bible is pretty full of all kinds of violence in it, some good, some not so good.
Violent video games are not inherently evil. They are a form of entertainment, and what the individual player does with the game, that could easily be for simple, good entertainment purposes. It is arguable that even using a game like that to dump otherwise uncontrolled anger and rage into the game, rather than into another human being is a noble cause, however there also is something to be said about confronting whatever has built that rage within yourself, and resolve that problem so then you don't need a video game to vent your anger, because you've separated yourself from your anger.
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
exactly, the bible defines murder as "taking one's life against the law"
self-defense is okay
war is okay
killing witches (Leviticus 20:27) is okay
killing someone when god tells you to is okay, though in this day and age, you'll get thrown in the loony bin
岩「…Ace beats Jack」
"It's okay to kill an enemy in games like Metal Gear Solid and SOCOM, but only a fool would kill somebody in real life or try to say that video games made them kill people!"
This came from an old youth pastor of mines, who was also a bit of a gamer himself. \
Why can't other men of God could had been like my pastor?
-Snow_Storm
I don't see killing in a video game as sinful. I mean, technically, it's just pixellated images on a screen!
Even Jack Thompson would realize that, if he and that fat pig-faced talk-radio jerk Michael Savage could ever get their heads out of each-other's butts! (And I hope Jack relays this message to Savage, too!)
Tim (aka the Slipperman)
Thankyou for your comment. It has added so much to this discussion.
Come on people, are you actually reading what the guy said? Here's his entire response, with a couple of things bolded.
"As normally defined, taking the life of another in video games (as in acting or in any other fantasy situation) is not a sin against God's prohibition to murder. If, however, what is done in the video game is an expression of hatred or callous disregard for human life, then the heart and motives are wrong, and then it is sin in God's eyes. But if this activity is pure entertainment and not an expression of lovelessness against any fellow human being, it isn't murder.
For the record, however, obsession with video games can involve other departures from God's will for his dearly loved and redeemed people. Typically, this can involve a colossal misuse of valuable time and also end up diverting time and attention from more useful and valuable pursuits that better glorify God and serve our neighbor. The same, of course, is true of a lot of forms of entertainment or diversions from useful labor or education (e.g., watching TV, movies, constantly listening to music but doing little other than that)."
He's not saying killing people in video games is sinful. He's not singling out video games as a bad activity or automatically a misuse of time.
He's saying don't blur fantasy and reality and inject real-life hatreds against people into a video game. He's saying video games are entertainment, and therefore don't obsess over them to the point where important things suffer. Perfectly reasonable things, in my view, and in most people's views I think. If only more people here actually understood what he was saying instead of automatically thinking "Oh, a religious guy is talking about video games, it must be an unjustified attack by an ignorant fool."
Exactly, basically, the response given is pretty much what people on this very site have wanted to see a religious group profess:
1. Video Games are not evil.
2. The individual gamer is responsible for his or her own actions.
3. Obsessing about anything (video games, TV, etc.) is generally unhealthy and not good.
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
On the same view as you. I read this as "It's fine to do what the game tells you to do, but don't mix it with your real-life lust for sin".
The average person has as much bloodlust killing virtual people as they do kicking rocks on the sidewalk or throwing beanbags at those cardboard targets in carnival games. Only difference is in the excitement involved. But that excitement in games shouldn't come from your fantasy of real-life murders.
Most people play aggressively so they can toot their horn and make others feel humilated if you are playing with others. It may be questionable as to whether humiliation is ok in God's view, and too much pride is considered sinful (and annoying too, if you ever encounter a guy who doesn't shut up). But usually it's all in lighthearted fun and nobody takes offense at losing unless someone throws a fit.
Ya know,I've always wondered that.I don't think it's a sin,cause the people/creatures you're killing aren't real.It's a game.
Hmm...This guy's actually on point. I'm impressed.
I'm also impressed at Jack's ability to restrain himself this time. What a good little monkey.
He didn't. He posted a lawsuit against a whole bunch of people in the Florida law system, and it got flagged. Oh, well....
Wait a minute, I love over the top violent games, and I've complained that Saw isn't always gruesome enough (that and the plot seems far fetched and annoying). So does playing violent games partly because I like to see fake people die in horrible ways make me a sinner?
Who cares if it does? There's no Hell.
How do you know?
Nope, not at all. If you hated and were angry with the fake people, the hatred would be wrong, and be a sin, but that is regardless to whatever medium is being presented.
"I'm not responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors." -- Xlorep DarkHelm
So does hating a certain boss because he/she/it is annoying, very hard and uses what I consider cheap moves, a sin then?