Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

December 2, 2008 -

When it comes to DRM, it seems that Valve president Gabe Newell is one of those in the game biz who wears a white hat.

That is to say, he espouses a reasonable approach, one that is not a de facto screwing of game consumers.

In an e-mail to a gamer by the name of Paul Reisinger (posted on the ih8evilstuff LiveJournal page), Newell writes:

Left 4 Dead is developed entirely by Valve. Steam revenue for our games is not shared with third parties. Around the world we have a number of distribution partners to handle retail distribution of our games (i.e. make discs and boxes). EA is one of those partners.

As far as DRM goes, most DRM strategies are just dumb. The goal should be to create greater value for customers through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to), not by decreasing the value of a product (maybe I'll be able to play my game and maybe I won't).

We really really discourage other developers and publishes from using the broken DRM offerings, and in general there is a groundswell to abandon those approaches.

Via: Tech in Hiding Games


Comments

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Not if the game wont function without it *lick* ^^

I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
(in need of a bad overhaul)


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Then don't buy the Steam-powered version of the game.. good GOD, how hard is this to understand?

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

No no I can buy the game then downlaod the steamless version and still paly it, aint life grand you can have you cake and eat it, but it would be nice if they did soemthign about a real offline mode.

I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
(in need of a bad overhaul)


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

lol i meant for solving the resource hogging whilst you are browsing the net etc lol  ;)

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Securom is stupid, no doubt about it, but it's here, and as long as it's here, anyone who uses it cannot be held accountable for piracy.

---You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.

---You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

yeah steam IS a form of drm... but i find the BENEFITS i get from steam FAR outweigh any negatives. Thats the point. What benefit do consumers get from securom? None...

 

What benefits do i get from steam?

With steam, i can buy a new conputer, install steam and *wham* like 15 games i own are all Downloaded for me without having to go through each box installing them pulling out CD keys, and changing discs for several hours.

I can quickly and easily see if my friends are playing a game, and, from windows, click join game, and stick back and let steam do the work.

I can play ALL my games offline. ( I havent experienced any of the problems with offline play mentioned in other posts, and ive been using steam for several years on several systems).

I get instant patches updating my game when they are released. No waiting around n downloading and manually applying patches.

 

What negatives do i get from steam?

I have to be online ONCE for a split second to 'activate' the game. Thats pretty much it....

 

So do the benefits outweigh the negatives?.. IMHO definitely. I think thats the point gabe is trying to make. Actually having the real game provides all these benefits you dont get with pirated copies.  So in some ways i can see how a consumer would BENEFIT from not pirating. With securom? the opposite is true. There are no benefits to lose from pirating. Just the negatives.

 

 

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

You forgot that shift+tab thing where you could talk to you friends and surf through the steam community. It even works on non-steam games if you launch it through steam with the shortcut feature.

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Some gamers don't have an internet connection.

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Do people complain that the phone that they bought needs a service provider. Or that the oven requires a gas line. Or that the AC requires electricity. The internet is becoming a standard service. If you don't have that service, you can't complain that the product that requires it... requires it. 

That's also completely ignoring the ability to use a free dial up service, or cyber cafe, or friend's house, or library, or...

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

All the more reason they need to expand the market and use a verification generation system, instead of using a strictly online setup you need a 2nd key from the publisher to start the game this completes verification and allows you to play, unlike the normal key thats sold with the game the verification key is updated with patches and can be obtained via phone/online account the verification program with the game, this way you have covered offline completely.


With this you can build flood control systems to accounts to minimize illicit distribution and charge a small fee to transfer a game its win win for all.

I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
(in need of a bad overhaul)


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

You can also get broadband from certain duke areas at this time.  If you have duke, you can actually get internet access through your outlets.

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

exactly! couldnt agree more

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

If they don't have an internet connection, then they wouldn't have Steam in the first place...

Sortableturnip's Law: As an online discussion of video game violence grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Jack Thompson approaches 1

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

But even the disk versions require Steam.

 

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Disc versions of Half-Life, perhaps, made by Valve, that have Steam's benefits rolled into its design, yes.

L4D is on the 360.

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

 There is an epic truth in this mans statement. Discussion is now closed.

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

sure.. but realistically what is the % of gamers without access to even dial up?

Is it really fair to say a system is 'bad' , ignoring the 99% of gamers out there with internet access, just becase a very small minority of users dont have ANY acces to the internet?

I mean the thing with steam is technically you could go to an internet cafe, of a friends computer, or ANYWHERE with an internet connection, and log on to your account to activate the game.... You only need access for a split second.

I mean im sure an equally small number of gamers dont have sound cards, speakers, or a monitor that can go over 800 x 600 resolution. So do you draw the line and say 'well we cant support any sound/stereo setups/ higher resolutions over that because a minority dont have them?' or do you say 'well the VAST majority does, so we will work for them'. I mean commercially you cant expect them to have scrapped the idea for what has turned out to be a hugely successful syste, just because a minority wouldnt have internet access, or access to anwhere where they can temporarily gain access.

 

 

 

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Well boo-hoo for them. They can stick to buying L4D on the 360.. or can they not afford that either? If someone doesn't have a connection out of "necessity", then how they play their games is the least of their worries, and thus they do not count in this discussion.

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Consider: The average price of high-speed internet access from Time-Warner is 57$, and that's for the grade right below the most expensive. 

So, if you can afford left 4 dead for the 360, you should be able to afford the internet as well.
 

Seriously, if you can't save 60 dollars a month, you need to examine your spending.

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Dude, my old home-town didn't get access to high speed internet in any way shape or form until last year. A lot of the areas over there still don't have access to it.
"

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Those people are myths.

 

"

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

/me raises hand

Well indirectly anyway. Windows = no internet access.

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

I understand his position. DRM is necessary, that is why they created steam. But they also know that if you are going to include DRM, you need to add value for the consumer. That is why they made all the changes and updates to steam. DRM is a devaluing addition to a game and if you don't counter that with added value, you will lose customers.

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Actually, that's not why they created Steam. It was designed as a back end to deal with updates, cheating enforcement, and multiplayer match making. The digitial distribution was an afterthough once they realized how easy it would be to add. That's why at launch, the DRM in Steam was semi-buggy, with the internet requirements causing problems.

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Well, Steam is a form of DRM but it's one that I don't really have a problem with.

Yes the offline mode is rather annoying, but as Azhrarn pointed out there's a simple method to getting it to work properly.  Besides be honest fellow PC gamers, how many of you actually play on a PC that isn't connected to the internet?  Maybe some of you have issues with the concept of being online to play games but certain titles, like Left 4 Dead or TF2, pretty much require to be online anyway so all in all I find the Offline mode issue only a minor annoyance.

Besides that I find nothing wrong with Steam.  You can download and install the game as many times as you wish on as many PCs as you wish.  It doesn't install a Rootkey that you can't delete, it doesn't break the use of hardware, and it doesn't track what you are doing on your PC.  Resell value of the titles is pretty much a non-issue since places don't accept PC games anyway for store credit or trade-in.  Only instance I can think of in terms of reselling a PC game is selling it to a friend.

I think Newell is dissing on methods such as SecuROM which take away the value of the game by treating the customer as a potential criminal.  Say what you will about Steam, it's certainly nowhere near the monster that SecuROM is.  Of course you always have the choice of not buying a game from Steam if you don't like it.  Personal choice and all that.

As for games on Steam that have other forms of DRM on top if it, well that's the individual developer's decision, not Valve's. 

 

Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

I know I'm fine with Steam because I never travel and play on a desktop, but there is also millions of gamers who play games on Airplanes and/or have laptops that don't access the internet or hotspotting generally gives unfavorable results. And that's realistically the only real problem with steam.

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Dude, Offline mode. It's been said many times in this thread already - if it's not working, you're doing something wrong.. sheesh.

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Yes the thing wrong is the forced setup. *lick*

I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
(in need of a bad overhaul)


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Yeah, forced setup, like it's such a chore.. oh wait, I forgot - any effort, no matter that it only takes a whole 1 minute when you first install the game, is far too much to expect of the customer.

Seriously, Zippy, you are one lazy dude.. well, except where whining is concerned. In that case, you're the Gold Medal winner.

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Sometimes the internet goes down.  Besides, what about those people who don't have an internet connection?  Sure, everyone here has one (that's how we can post), but there are millions of people with computers that don't have internet, either through choice or necessity.

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

"Sometimes the internet goes down."  Oh noes, I can't play Left 4 Dead right now!  Oh what will I ever do?  I may have to resort to reading a book or even *gasp* going outside!  The humanity!!

It's been stated, several times already, that the Offline mode in Steam works fine.  If you're having issues it could possibly be your PC's settings.  Check it out next time.  I've had my share of PC problems, but my first response is to take a look at see if there is a particular setting causing the issue.  Too many people find something doesn't work at first and then fly off the handle, blaming the product's company without considering that it could be their rig.

Millions?  Really?  Well first of all I don't know where you got that number but I highly doubt that it's in the millions.  Second of all those people are irrelevent in this matter.  Steam is an online service.  You don't complain to Yahoo that you can't access your e-mail account because you don't have internet, do you?  You don't complain to Epic that you can't play Hordes because you don't have a Xbox LIVE account or that you can't download new maps because of the same issue.  Therefore you shouldn't complain about people not being able to play games on Steam because they lack a necessary component for the service to work.

 

Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Ok, I have to call bullshit on that one. Of course your internet sometimes goes down, but for most people that's a rarity, and doesn't last longer than a few days, tops. How is it the job of Valve to work around that "not in the normal course of events" scenario?

And as for the, *cough*, "millions" of gamers (non-gamers wouldn't even know what Steam is, or be interested anyway) without an internet connection? Well, that's too fuckin bad. No one is forcing them to buy L4D via Steam, they have other options. Steam is, by design, a service that requires a connection, just like your email, web browsers, music/video streaming, etc.. your point is complete nonsense.

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

I will not put any of my Windows systems on the net. Period. No exceptions.

How do I run HL2, even the store bought version that requires Steam?

 

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

You are, by FAR, an exception case. It's not Valve's responsibility to invest in ways to cater to linux fanatics who think their house will burn down if they allow a windows box to be online. Grow up, dude.

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Yes thos of us that want more out rights protected and a streamlined offline mode are in the minornity, so? I will continue to boyycott it with others until they change.

I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
(in need of a bad overhaul)


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

The point being that they never will, because you are, as I stated before, an insignificant minority. What this means is that, because there are so few of you, the business in question can safely shrug its shoulders and not give a shit about what you're complaining about.

People who are so fanatical about hating "M$" that they won't put a windows box online, as well as those who can't bumble their way into getting steam's offline mode to work correctly, are great examples.

Boycott all you want, it's a wasted effort.

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Once you bought the game(new or used) you are entitled to a steamless version you'll just have to find it and download it ^^

I is fuzzy brained mew =^^=
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/
(in need of a bad overhaul)


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Doesn't L4D require you to have an internet connection to install it on your computer even if you bought the game from a retailer? Like Half-Life 2.

"

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

An online game requires you to be online to install it?! WHAT'S THIS WORLD COMING TO?!

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

 I agree wuth farlander28, the internet will go down regardless and there is nothing that can be done to mitigate that. Quite frankly, there is more of a concern with Steam servers going down, because that effects EVERYONE, not just a single person. However, the ability to install my games ANYWHERE I want, on ANY computer significantly outweighs this problem.

 Moreover, if you cannot scrape $60.00 together in a month for internet you have no reasonable excuse to be scraping $60.00 together to buy a game. Its not Steams fault you're fucking poor.

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

 Once again Valve shows why they deserve to be one of the most respected companies, and why they are one of the most successful.

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Except for when it comes to the PS3. They were pretty blatant in their speech when they said nothing but horrible things for the console and do not support it.

"

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

to be fair the architecture of the ps3 is RADICALLY different to that of pc and 360.. so i can totally understand why you would focus on say 360 and pc over ps3.  Plus porting between 360 and pc is very easy, whereas ps3 kinda sits in the corner being awkward and uncooperative if you try and port.

Nothing wrong (IMO) with saying we ar gonna specialise on one set of platforms over another, instead of spreading resources over more platforms, which could reduce the overall product quality...

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

I wouldn't have a problem with them if they said they were going to focus on the 360 and PC because of the ease of prgramming for both, I do have a problem with them straight telling the PS3 to take a hike and them talking about how horrible the machine is.

 Time to quote him:

"I think [PS3 is] a waste of everybody's time. Investing in the Cell, investing in the SPE gives you no long-term benefits. There's nothing there that you're going to apply to anything else. You're not going to gain anything except a hatred of the architecture they've created. I don't think they're going to make money off their box. I don't think it's a good solution" - Gabe Newell

and

"The PS3 is a total disaster on so many levels, I think It’s really clear that Sony lost track of what customers and what developers wanted." - Gabe Newell

"

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

to be fair i OWN a ps3, and the man is kinda right!

What are the long term benefits? You can make ps3 games.. thats it. By investing time in pc and 360 (both v similar) they reap far more benefits with practically one skillset, and due to the pc's evolving nature, keep heavily up to date.

And as far as sony losing track.. well.. tbh... i wanted the ps3 as a games console... not a Blu ray player. I STILL havent bought a blu ray movie. im not particularly interested. I wanted good GAMES. And to be honest they have REALLY dropped the ball. I bought a ps3 mainly because i enjoyed ps2, and thought great, sony always gets hold of all teh good JRPGS (my fave) ill go with them. And whats happened? Sony has focused on blu-ray and media etc and hasnt kept devs loyal. FFXIII multiplat, and a complete lack of JRPGs, while the 360 has plenty... Im a bit gutted tbh!

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Warning!  Fanboy Alert!

--- Official Protector of Videoland!

--- Official Protector of Videoland!

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Oh come on, that's hardly as bad as you make it out to be. It's not like he was cursing and flaming Sony like an empty-headed fanboy, he was just being a bit harsh in vocalizing his perspective as a developer. In case you haven't been paying attention for the last 8 or 9 years, that's just how the guy is. Sure, he can be a loud-mouth, quick to go off if he's pissed about something, but that doesn't invalidate his opinion. All his tone does is require you to roll your eyes and have a little patience to get through his tirade, because his points are usually well worth it.

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

"You're not going to gain anything except a hatred of the architecture they've created. I don't think they're going to make money off their box. I don't think it's a good solution"

In this one line, he says he thinks the product will fail, when it hasn't after being out for 3 years.

He believes learning to program for it will piss him off. That sounds like an awfully lazy excuse to me.

"

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

You think so? Programming being what it is (a bitch and a half), and the PS3 being what it is (expensive and a pain to develop for, by all accounts), I'd be surprised to find out there were developers who weren't pissed off during development of PS3 games.

Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM

Considering the massive amount of games that launch at the same time multi-platform and the fact that Sony has made developer's kits cheap (for developing kits anyway) to obtain, yeah, I do think so.

Then you have some company's (like Team Ninja) that say they have had absolutely no problem with programming for the device.

I will be the first to admit it is different to program for when compared to the PC and 360 (which are basically the same thing in terms of programming), but when you have the tools and take the time I don't really see how it is hard to program for. 

"
 
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