When it comes to DRM, it seems that Valve president Gabe Newell is one of those in the game biz who wears a white hat.
That is to say, he espouses a reasonable approach, one that is not a de facto screwing of game consumers.
In an e-mail to a gamer by the name of Paul Reisinger (posted on the ih8evilstuff LiveJournal page), Newell writes:
Left 4 Dead is developed entirely by Valve. Steam revenue for our games is not shared with third parties. Around the world we have a number of distribution partners to handle retail distribution of our games (i.e. make discs and boxes). EA is one of those partners.
As far as DRM goes, most DRM strategies are just dumb. The goal should be to create greater value for customers through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to), not by decreasing the value of a product (maybe I'll be able to play my game and maybe I won't).
We really really discourage other developers and publishes from using the broken DRM offerings, and in general there is a groundswell to abandon those approaches.
Via: Tech in Hiding Games
Comments
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
You are forgetting the most important point in this situation - MONEY.
Cheap dev kits are one thing, paying developers' salaries to learn a brand new system to port the game over is quite another. And this "massive amount" of multi-platform games, from who? Big-name publishers? Yeah, they can afford it. Publishers like EA have enough cash to allow programmers to devote their time to developing on a completely new platform (whereas PC and 360 are both windows-based, well-established framework). Smaller developers do NOT have those kinds of resources. It's the same situation as with porting games to work on Mac OS - for the longest time, Blizzard was the only well-known developer to put games out for both OSes, because they've always had an endless well of cash to do so.
As for indie games, well, those can be done by people on the side, who have everyday jobs and are building games on the side in an attempt to "take off" in this business. Companies who are caught in the middle (not doing games on the side but not with a fat bank account like EA or Blizzard) are in a different situation, where every hour of the workday needs to be financed on the company's dime.
So again, his point is valid - if your company has serious concerns about financing a game's development effort, and you have a brand new architecture that may or may not succeed (being the new Playstation isn't enough, as we've seen by the sales numbers, ie - Sony is not immune to failure), then it's just not worth taking a chance on it yet.
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
For the games I have Offline mode works just fine. (Half-Life 2, HL2: Ep1, HL2: Ep2, Portal, Audiosurf)
It does state quite clearly that you need to have the whole game cached on your HDD for off-line mode to work, this eats a lot of additional disc-space, but then it does work.
Personally, while Steam is indeed DRM, I find that it is quite user-friendly in general.
(The online activation part being the only downside really)
He's most likely dissing the DRM types that almost have more downsides for the consumer than is reasonable.
(Like the overly restrictive and agressive SecuROM implementation currently in use)
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
Dddduuuddddeeee(gabe)....smoking your own fumes much?
You've made a dumb DRM yes it has more value than others but the fact offline mode is buggy and dose not work broken as the DRM you are dissing.... hell tis so bad I have to find and put a copy of the non steam game in the box with my retail packaged game because you force steam on everything....oh...and why not tell off the publishers that want to add in their own DRM ontop of steam? Dude wake up and get a clue...YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!!!!!
BTW I only thought politicians knew double speak well.......
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
He's part of the problem? Let's face it, DRM is a necessaty these days. World of Goo is a prime example as a game with no DRM resulted in a 90% piracy rate (look on Kotaku for this). Steam is going in the right direction and you can't complain about it over other DRM methods.
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
What about games that have DRM, they're still pirated to hell and back, especally games with SecuRom on it since its the worst DRM ever.
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
DRM isn't necessary. Despite the claims of the companies that use them, DRM doesn't bring significant changes, people who would pirate games wouldn't even buy the games in the first place, and like what people say, it brings more problems to consumers rather than pirates because hackers will always get around any DRM that's thrown into the martket, including Steam; and I have a friend that pirates Steam games, which includes World of Goo.
Also, face it. Most people who pirate games probably don't have the money or won't even spend a penny to support their ill-gotten-entertainment (lack of better words, MEH), the use of DRM isn't going to change their minds, the most they'll do is stop playing, that's all. Like the friend that I talked about. And then there's hackers, who would always get DRM out of the equation. ALWAYS.
Steam on the other hand, is the best DRM out there, in my opinion. Mainly because it enables me to download games that I own anywhere, I've never given much thought on the offline mode because my computer is online most of the time, and Steam games that I play the most are online anyway.
L4D and TF2 FTW.
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
DRM is necessary for killing the second hand market still though. That is all they are really trying to do. They know it wont stop the piracy, and that it will actually increase the amount of piracy. Hell, it will cause people to pirate older games instead of buying them new with this stuff. These people are becoming greedy, and they need to live with the fact of the second hand market and piracy.
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
There is actually no second hand PC market to speak of, since the DRM stratagies such as CD-Keys and verification, it makes it impossible to sell second hand goods without disatisfying and getting complaints all over the place that "Oh this game won't go online." or "This game won't run."
Also there is the danger for both developers and retailers that you could just rent a game, burn it, and send it back.
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
hahahaahahahahahahaahaha
Used Book/Media stores sell the stuff as is and do fine,ebay and what not do fine the big box stores cried "oh noes they might ca return it lets get of it it takes up space and we get lil money from it."
Out of the 50 or so PC games I ahve bought with key I ahve had trouble with.....2 and 1 was due to me loseing the Gdamn key :P
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
Were they all used? I imagine that buing a game with a used CD key is a bit sketchy... Personally I would never buy a used PC game, because of the danger of someone who has burnt it, copied the CD key on a napkin and sold it to the retailer, I pick it up and then it doesn't work, then I send it back to the nice people at gamestop who won't help me at all.
Used books, movies, and whatever do not have CD keys on them as I remember, and I think gamestop does not accept trade ins for used PC games.
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
Yes I stoped buying new games regualerly 5+ years ago, I can spot a open box and new discounted to 10$ game a mile away, genreally used PC games have no problems becuse its that easy to get a crack or something, I ahve mroe issues with Steam other other priportory systems that are sticky about trading games but even then tis nto so bad and if they woudl just charge a open small fee for teh transfer I'd be mroe inclinded to deal with steam.
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
great, because using CD-key generators and cracks are not seedy at all.
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
Its cheaper to make a new key encyptor than it is to make a whole new Sicrom style DRM system.
The point is to keep ahead without being overencumbered, more so than to stay ahead of crackers you make the 2ndardy key to keep joe public from making copies themselfs.
DRM as it is now is trying to control every aspect of the program thats not good as its costs to much to keep up and creates to many bugs to hassle the end user, insted focus on hassling the home "redistrobutor" you have to ignroe the crackers and mainstream underground prirates as its not worth the profit loss on paying for the DRM.
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
Sorry, but I'm with the 'Steam is part of the problem' crowd. If a game had 90% piracy vs. 10% buy, then guess what - the game probably sucked so badly that no one wanted to buy it.
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
No, it's 90% of the people were cheapskates and 10% were not.
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
And how many would ahve bought the game mabye at a ratio of 1 to 1000 sorry insignifgant profit wont keep a dieing dev/game from going under the main problem is not DRM not protcting sales but how publishers advertise and handle the market....
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
100% of the people may not have not bought the game otherwise, but like wise it is not like 100% of those people would not have bought the game if put into that situation.
Not everybody who pirated the game would have bought the game, but likewise some would have. A community podcast called Bomb Should Have a Face on Giant Bomb articulated this and it makes sense. And I think your wrong in that it's 1 out of 1000, there are people who look at a game like Bioshock and sees two options Free version vs. Pay version. And this guy really wants to play Bioshock , if the free version is not as acessable or not there, he would have choosen the pay version.
Especially with a $10 game on steam if someone said "Well maybe I can get it for free, no one will care... oh look I can't get it for free, oh well it's $10 I guess i'll buy it"
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
You fail to see that the majority of downlaoders as a free hobby take downloading away they will change hobbies, some will keep up with new most will not because of monetary and regional issues.
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
Yes... it was only the highest rated wii game on metacritic for a few weeks... up there with Super Mario Galaxy and Smash Brothers....
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
World of Goo was actually a great game, I think the problem was it was something new and people are less likely to risk money on something new, becasue they won't know how they feel about it.
But I have to wonder if DRM would have helped at all. I mean people just cut through the DRM now on any sort of mode that can be played off line. I actually like steam, and guess I never tried playing the games offline, but to be honest it has been a really good way to reduce piracy. I think the best way to reduce piracy is to have an abosolutely awesome online mode, so if you don't actually buy it and can't go online with it you feel left out. but if that is the case you don't need extra DRM attached like securom.
Pirating is wrong, and I won't say I never have pirated a game before, but it is wrong. The thing is that DRM just isn't helping and is only burdoning the consumer.
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
And yet some games like sins of a solar empire and Galactic Civilizations II and fallout 3 have sold well its all about how you sell it, if you do not advertise for it you wont sell it.
DRM protective status is a fallacy.
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
I absolutly hate the example of Stardock games coming up OVER AND OVER AND OVER agian in every DRM arguement. The reason why their game sells well is because they have their niche, and they fill it the best they can. They don't advertise their games AT ALL and they never order any shelf space, going to the absolute minimum to get their games at brick n' moter stores. The only shelf space you see is because of windows advertising for Sins of a Solar Empire or at the descresion of the retailer to put them out there. The people buying these games, would just be people who know who Stardock is, know what they do, and people who are enthusest gamers that go on Gamespot, and IGN, and 1UP and say "That got a 9! I should buy it!"
Fallout 3 sold basically on Bethesda and Take 2's advertising strength. There are ads for Fallout 3 everywhere, and they buy up shelf space, signs, everything. Everything else though was also the hardcore market.
World of Goo on the other hand has almost zero niche audience, and zero advertising strength other than the descresion of Valve's game of the week stuff or whatever when you start up steam.
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
"They don't advertise their games AT ALL and they never order any shelf space, going to the absolute minimum to get their games at brick n' moter stores."
That is flat-out not true as I've seen plenty of copies of their games in stores and I HAVE seen advertisements for their games all over gaming sites.
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
That may be because of Microsoft and not Stardocks doing. Most likely the game was Sins which was a GFW live thing. Microsoft does marketing for all it's GFW games.
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
So bascily you are saying its DRM's fault for people not buying games in droves?
Sorry it dose not work like that either a game sells on its merits prescived by the market or it dose not sell.
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
Thankfully the good Hardcore segments of the Wii user base actually purchased the game itself on Wiiware, and that is why they said "well it sucks, but at least the wii version is doing well."
And look at that! 100% of the people who played it on Wii has paid for it. By contrast to the 10% of people who paid for it on PC. If i was a developer I would just go "Why the hell bother with this market, I make more returns on the people who are honost and actually pay to play my game." Especially with an Indie game I would personally feel disgusted at the PC gaming user base and precive them as a bunch of theives as what many publishers do. It was me and some other dude who wanted to make this cool little game, not a big company like blizzardvision or a big company like EA, it's just me and this other guy, and then 90% of the people stole it, and we put no DRM on it as good will to the gamers. What... the.... frack... you guys suck...
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
Dude...if I had a wii I coud l easily l downlaod to VC "roms" ..... only Live/PSN has any worthwhile protection on it.
So again you are blaming people for not buying a crappy or mediocre game in droves becuse......they never heard of it and it has lulzy reviews.........*sigh*
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
This is only one of the highest rated Wii games in the entire Wii library! This is no crappy game if you actually knew what it was, and I don't think it's fair for those two people to have games ripped out of their hands because people simply can. Effort and hard work was placed into this game, also an extreme amount of talant, are you saying that it's justified to steal this game?
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
So each copy equates to a equal loss? I am sorry but thats not how reality works, you make a game/film/song you advertise it for the market everything past that is up to the whims of the market the only thing that you can do anything with is illicit sales copies are just a sign of the popularity of the project not its profitability you can not tie in illicit copes and profit because the illicit copes come about because it is MADE in the first palce......
If you remove the illicit copies on a poor selling project whats left from this equation? A poor selling project.....
If anything the illicit copies promote the buying of the legitimate product even if its unnoticeable only bad products really suffer from illicit copies and even then there is no way to add up the losses since the core product is bad from the start, illicit copies are merely a gauge on the WORLD WIDE popularity of the end product the same as word of mouth and anything else intangible.....
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
One copy lost does not also equate to 1 person who would not buy it anyways also! Sure, 1 lost does not equate to one person who would buy it, but i'm pretty sure that there are a lot of people who would outo that diagram if they could not pirate it.
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
Now you are making slil sense lets finish this thought if you got 1-4% mroe sales from it if people did not pirate it would it be notable enough to effect anything?
BTW the answer is no. ^^
The trouble is you can not equate illicit copies to profit gain or loss its just not that tangiable.
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
Thats IF the number of people who would have bought it IS 1-4%. Tell me where did you get these numbers from? hmm?
What if that number is as high as 60%? What then? that's over half of their revenue isin't it?
I agree that you cannot equate 1 copy lost as 1 copy not bought, but obviously there is an overlap of someone who would buy the game, if not there was a free illegal alternative, and I don't know if that number is 1-4% or as high as 60%. but you are basing off your number off of literally nothing.
You can however equate ilicit copies to POTENTIAL lost revenue. for example 1 million copies pirated each copy costing 10$. 10 million dollars in potential revenue lost.
Unless you prove the 1-4%, your hypothetical is worth almost nothing.
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
Because the majority of "downlanders" do it to buck the system or as something to do, take it away they will move to a "as cost effective hobby" like gaming from 10 years ago some will move to legit newer gaming sure but the vast majority wont because they either can't afford it or its not in their region as downloadingis on the world wide scale.....
Besides whats worse precived profit loss or making downloading a high crime its obvious that trumping up CP/IP will only make things worse for all of us.
Also you can nto prove soemthing no one can prove and you can not prove your train of thought either so meh I am merely goign with the msot logcail line of thought, people do it becuse they can take it away they will move away from the indutry becuse tis not worth the time or money.
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
Agreed that DRM does nothing, and it will never do anything. The crackers are amazing, and could crack some of the most advance code out there.
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
"As far as DRM goes, most DRM strategies are just dumb. The goal should be to create greater value for customers through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to), not by decreasing the value of a product (maybe I'll be able to play my game and maybe I won't)."
This coming from a guy whose company developed and runs Steam. A program in which requires you not only to be online to activate your game but most of the time, to play it as well.
Offline Mode hasn't worked all the time for me, and usually I have to login then use Offline Mode which logs me out and activates it, which is bloody pointless if I'm in a location where I can't use the damn internet.
So Newell, tell me how you dismiss DRM so much but use something just as painstankingly annoying to use?
-- Joshua Smellie
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
Yeah, I have to agree with you, but he does not support SecuROM. As long as these companies are saying different things about their DRM, which is what steam is DRM too, then it gives consumers more room to shout. There is no way Steam or SuckROM are the right answers, but the right answer has yet to come. Both have little to do with piracy, but more so killing the second hand market, which is the biggest point about this whole mess.
On the other hand, I have 2 different versions of the original Mario for NES, Mario 3, Final Fantasy for NES, and so on. These are classic games worth coming back to years later, something I can not say Sims, Roller Coaster Tycoon, Gears of War, Halo, or even Mass Effect. On the other hand Mario Galaxy and Mario Kart Wii are both games that you can go back to years later. So I guess as long as these idiots are making crap games that I wouldn't want to go back to later, I don't care about being able to obtain them later, but I sure as hell and to be able to sell my games that I am done with.
Random Question: Am I the only one that keeps the worst game they have ever bought?
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
I always keep my games, even if they are horrible. That way I can always go back and play the good games and laugh at the bad ones.
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Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
I prefer the name 'FucUrom'. :)
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
Oh man that is one awesome name, I am now going to call it that from now on.
-- Joshua Smellie
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Randi Tastix - http://randomtastic.com
Re: Report: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM
LOL! Me too.
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