Report: UK Game Biz Will Slip to 5th Place in 2009
Report: UK Game Biz Will Slip to 5th Place in 2009
December 4, 2008
The UK video game industry is on the skids and will drop to 5th place worldwide, according to a report by Britain's National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts.
According to gamesindustry.biz, the UK game industry, currently in third place behind the US and Japan, will be surpassed by Korea, Canada and China next year. (GP: by our math, that would make the UK number 6). The NESTA report cites a shortage of qualified game industry workers in the UK as well as a lack of global scale game publishers. Financial conditions and poor online game development are also contributing to the gloomy outlook.
NESTA CEO Jonathan Kestenbaum commented:
UK videogames producers are recognised to be amongst the most innovative in the world. Our recommendations offer ways that the Government can boost the power of this sector so that we maintain our strong global position.
The generous tax breaks on offer from other countries are resulting in a mass exodus of some of the best talent in the UK. In order to put a halt to this, the UK needs to wake up to the value in this sector and beat these foreign incentives with our own supportive measures.
Among NESTA's proposed solutions are:
- streamlining tax credits for R&D
- focus on developing skilled game industry workers
- matching tax breaks offered by rival nations
- pushing the game biz to do more in the online game arena
A PUBLICATION OF THE ECA
SUBSCRIBE
LOGIN / REGISTER
Crispy Gamer
GamePolitics ShoutBox
Posted 03/21/10 at 06:23pm
Andrew Eisen: No, I think I'll stay safe and warm in my own little world where Provolone is king and that... other cheese... doesn't exist.
Andrew Eisen: No, I think I'll stay safe and warm in my own little world where Provolone is king and that... other cheese... doesn't exist.
Posted 03/21/10 at 06:22pm
JDKJ: I wish the Speaker would ask me for what purpose does the member rise.
JDKJ: I wish the Speaker would ask me for what purpose does the member rise.
Posted 03/21/10 at 06:18pm
JDKJ: Provolone?! Please! Try aged Blue Stilton. Also known as Zippy Ass-Crack Cheese.
JDKJ: Provolone?! Please! Try aged Blue Stilton. Also known as Zippy Ass-Crack Cheese.
Posted 03/21/10 at 06:13pm
Andrew Eisen: Nothing beats Provolone.
Andrew Eisen: Nothing beats Provolone.
Posted 03/21/10 at 06:11pm
JDKJ: Betcha my cheese beats your cheese.
JDKJ: Betcha my cheese beats your cheese.
Posted 03/21/10 at 06:09pm
Andrew Eisen: I don't know, I can count pretty high with my graphing calculator. It's a TI-86!
Andrew Eisen: I don't know, I can count pretty high with my graphing calculator. It's a TI-86!
Posted 03/21/10 at 06:07pm
JDKJ: There'll be more dead babies than you can count if the socialists succeed in passing that God-damned Obamacare!!
JDKJ: There'll be more dead babies than you can count if the socialists succeed in passing that God-damned Obamacare!!
Posted 03/21/10 at 06:04pm
Andrew Eisen: Hmm, top 10 child deaths in film. What a great blog post that would make! If I had a blog. And if that hadn't been done a million times before.
Andrew Eisen: Hmm, top 10 child deaths in film. What a great blog post that would make! If I had a blog. And if that hadn't been done a million times before.
Posted 03/21/10 at 06:03pm
JDKJ: Whoa! It's some rotten blue cheese, too.
JDKJ: Whoa! It's some rotten blue cheese, too.
Posted 03/21/10 at 06:00pm
JDKJ: *sighs and smiles* I just cut some cheese.
JDKJ: *sighs and smiles* I just cut some cheese.
Posted 03/21/10 at 05:58pm
Andrew Eisen: Well, just so there's no confusion: implied deaths won't get you to the top of my favorite child-deaths list.
Andrew Eisen: Well, just so there's no confusion: implied deaths won't get you to the top of my favorite child-deaths list.
Posted 03/21/10 at 05:58pm
JDKJ: Most authorities hold that "cut the mustard" mutates and derives from "cut the muster."
JDKJ: Most authorities hold that "cut the mustard" mutates and derives from "cut the muster."
Posted 03/21/10 at 05:56pm
Andrew Eisen: Checked the dictionary. I guess you could cut one definition of muster.
Andrew Eisen: Checked the dictionary. I guess you could cut one definition of muster.
Posted 03/21/10 at 05:56pm
JDKJ: Don't take my word for it. Look it up yourself.
JDKJ: Don't take my word for it. Look it up yourself.
Posted 03/21/10 at 05:55pm
Andrew Eisen: Cut the muster? That wouldn't make a lot of sense. You could pass it sure but cut it?
Andrew Eisen: Cut the muster? That wouldn't make a lot of sense. You could pass it sure but cut it?
Posted 03/21/10 at 05:53pm
JDKJ: As in: "Zippy always cuts the cheese but he never cuts the muster."
JDKJ: As in: "Zippy always cuts the cheese but he never cuts the muster."
Posted 03/21/10 at 05:51pm
JDKJ: And I believe the expression is more properly "cut the muster," not "mustard." Not to be confused with "cut the cheese."
JDKJ: And I believe the expression is more properly "cut the muster," not "mustard." Not to be confused with "cut the cheese."
Posted 03/21/10 at 05:48pm
JDKJ: I kinda like the way it's left to the imagination. Like the shower scene in Hitchcock's Psycho.
JDKJ: I kinda like the way it's left to the imagination. Like the shower scene in Hitchcock's Psycho.
Posted 03/21/10 at 05:46pm
Andrew Eisen: A flying shoe doesn't quite cut the mustard. If it was shot like a similar scene in Bride of Chucky, Gage's death would rank a lot higher.
Andrew Eisen: A flying shoe doesn't quite cut the mustard. If it was shot like a similar scene in Bride of Chucky, Gage's death would rank a lot higher.
Copyright © 2007 ECA. All rights reserved.
Game Politics and Game Politics logo are trademarks of the ECA.
Game Politics and Game Politics logo are trademarks of the ECA.
Comments
wouldnt that make it 6th place? Ah, you caught it too...
I wouldnt be surprised to see Japan and the US almost get passed in a few years, because I don't see the government giving cuts to them, especially the US.
Nido Web Flash Tutorials AS2 and AS3 Tutorials for anyone interested.
How to set Xbox 360 Parental Controls
there are states in the US that offer tax incentives and other benefits that benefit developers. So I wouldn't think the US would be passed any time soon.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091
Yeah, but what limitations are other countries putting on the games made there, and how much incentives are they giving out?
Nido Web Flash Tutorials AS2 and AS3 Tutorials for anyone interested.
How to set Xbox 360 Parental Controls
no, the US and Japan are the two biggest markets for video games and that in turn has allowed those two countries to build the biggest video game industries. Essentially, Japan and the US crap out so many games that its impossible for them to fall behind the other countries; with or without the government they will always turn higher profits than other countries
You can have a game developed in another country for 20% of the price of having it developed in the US, and that is just off of paying people, not having a whole company there. Automakers build in foreign countries to turn a bigger profit. Hell, Ford in Germany built vehicles for the Nazi military even, haha. So weird shit happens.
Granted, it is rather unlikely, I just wanted to point out that it is a possibility more than anything, especially with the greed mongers.
Nido Web Flash Tutorials AS2 and AS3 Tutorials for anyone interested.
How to set Xbox 360 Parental Controls
Ya except the engrish in those games would be so horrible the 20% they saved is spent checking all the text again :P
------------------------------------
I am a signature virus, please copy and paste me into your signature to help me propagate.
It makes them sixth only if the US and Japan stay in the top 5...
That's because they keep shooting themselves in the foot.
--- Official Protector of Videoland!
we keeo saying that there's no qualified workers here, but then I never actually see companies hiring for anything more than QA, and localisation QA at that!
...also "lack of online game development"? Don't know about other studios but the reason my studio doesn't do online stuff is mostly because trying to compete with COD4, WoW and Halo3 is just plain crazy! Publishers and developers alike are too scared to do waste their money on them.
At least thats how I see it anyways...
see i can speak first hand on this. Im about.. 6 months (roughly) away from graduating from my computer game development course. Its a programming course and im doin REALLY well and cant wait to get a job in the games industry. (Got through to the final interviews for about 10 people at RARE this year for summer internships, out of over a thousand people who originally applied!!)
But tbh... i have STRONG thoughts about moving abroad for my career. e.g a place like edmonton in canada, working for bioware etc. The thing is, from a developer point of view, its just SO EXPENSIVE to live over here. Its ridiculous. The 'biggest and best' game jobs in the uk are still located around london, where the price of living almost doubles again!.
I posted a link the other day about korea. They are investing somehting like $200 billion into the industry!. Here in the uk video game development STILL has some stigma about it its ridiculous, and im sick of it!
The same thing happened with the general computing industry here in the 80s early 90s. Industry figures warned the uk government that other countries were investing heavily, and that the uk IT industry (then VERY strong) would suffer immensely. But nobody listened. And now the uk is out ranked by many countries in terms of the general IT industry. the EXACT same thing is happening again.
The UK industry is standing there in the middle of a freeway shouting 'Hey government, there is a huge 18 wheel beast of a truck headed toward me, can you move me please?', and the government puts its hand over its eyes and shouts back 'what truck, i dont see any truck. you just play with your toys nicely video game industry and leave us grown ups to talk, good boy'. Despite that fact that the video game industry in this representation is not a kid, but a 40 year old guym, but the government refuses to accept that.
The government (although they dont say it explicitly in words) still think of games as some 'niche' fad, mainly for kids etc, and dont respect the games industry as a SERIOUS industry. At a time when the economy is doing so dire, THIS is when the government NEED to step in. I mean if they invested heavily the uk could remain, even surpass, its original position among the orlds top game developers, generating a huge boost for the uk economy.
I feel this stigma EVERYWHERE i the uk at the moment, not just the government, but the general populace . Im SICK of mentioning to people that im a game developer etc, and all io get back is ''oh.. so you sit around n play games all day then, you still play games at your age, i'd have thought youd have grown out of that?''. So i have to sit n explain over n over, how programming games is NOTHING to do with playing them, how its DAMN hard work etc, alot harder than alot of the plebs i know who stack shelves in a supermarket for a living, earning minimum wage. (dont get me wrong some1 has to do it, i just meant it as its a sad day when that earns respect, yet studying for a degree and becoming a game developer, is ridiculed)
^post of the year^
I second that! I feel exactly the same way, doing a computer course too and the stick you get from some people! Haha though I like to complain though.
nah its true though!
And programming REALLY isnt 'easy'. there is an IMMENSE amount to learn, and to get good takes real dedication. Plus no matter how much you learn there is ALWAYS more, technology and techniques advance so fast. All this ESPECIALLY so in game programming, where you have to code things that run in a fraction of a second so it can be used in rea-time.
In ANY other profession youd have people telling you how proud they are that your working so hard, and really respect you. (Not that im saying im the kind of person looking for compliments etc, I'd be completely happy with just a lack of insults and derogatory remarks)
After a while, when people started asking what i do, i went through a phase of making life easier by just saying 'oh software engineering,' or 'oh computer programming', and do you know, i barely ever got a bad/patronising remark.. but as soon as you add the word 'games' in there, reactions completely change... its so unbelievably frustrating. Moreso when you look at the fact that games programming 100% IS the same as software engineering anyway, except (in may respects), with GREATER challenges due to extreme performance constraints!
But then i got sick of feeling like i had to 'hide' it (why the heck should I?? i have worked harder in the last 3 years on this degree than ever in my life, putting in SO MANY extra hours its untrue, and im PROUD of that, and who the f*** has a right to make me feel like i dont!) So now i 'say it loud, n say it proud' (lol), im a GAMES PROGRAMMER. If someone wants to be ignorant thats their problem.
But it doesn't alter the fact it'd still would be so much easier if i moved away from here to somewhere it is more widely accepted/commonplace. Does the uk not thnk that perhaps there is a shortage of uk game programmer graduates BECAUSE of the attitudes it HELPS TO CREATE!, and the lack of support / encouragement it provides??
Do you know i actually did a law degree before this. I never really knew what i wanted to do with my career. id NEVER even thought that 'game programming' WAS a SERIOUS career choice. Not once. Mainly because of the attitudes of people around me. I had this (totally unrealistic) image that it was some underpaid niche market with no real opportunities. Never once did the college 'career advisor' bring it up. Not once, when i was sat in maths class thinking 'when the HECK will i ever need to use this, whats the point?' did a teacher say 'oh actually programming, expecially games etc can really benefit from it'. It was never even whisperered. It was only when i reached a crossroads in my life at 22 , after completing my law degree that I decided to do some research myself about it, i saw that it WAS a serious choice, and was baffled that nobody in 22 years had ever even mentioned or even talked about it in passing. I mean games are my passion, and always have been too, it fitted perfectly!.
they wonder why there are a lack of graduates?....
with regard to schools and education...
Did they ever give me any (and i mean even one tiny iota) idea that this was a viable career, in fact did they ever mention the word?? .. no.
Did they teach me even basic programming skills at school? No. I had to use ACORN computers, and learned how to use a spreadsheet. That was it. Oh but i did learn latin and geography (geography was mandatory when i did it due to government guidelines). wow.. which would have been more useful for me in this day and age. Well at least i know about river erosion... (sarcasm)
Did they offer me support when i did ask about it? ? No. I got completely unfounded opinions and half truths which did nothing but discourage me, and made me feel stupid for actually asking.
Did they ever encourage related skills (maths and physics) by saying how these skills are actually potentially useful in the real world in a non-academic context? no.
with regard to the government, society and public image...
Have they ever encouraged people to truly WANT to be a game programmer or infact be seen as related in any way to the industry?
In parliament they constantly discuss ridiculous stories about 'suicide bomber' flash games (which are NOTHING TO DO with 'true' games development, but help to cloud the general public's views and attitudes toward the topic, and actively increase HOSTILITY toward anyone related to the industry.
They allow MPS (*cough* vaz *cough*) to spit out half truths and lies, and scare stories, which again serve nothing but to cloud the general public's views and attitudes toward the topic. Has anyone ever tried to hold him responsible for slanderous remarks regarding the pakerah case? He STILL repeatedlt claims the killer 'trained' on manhunt DESPITE scotland yard investigating and saying that there was NO LINK TO THE GAME in the killing, AND that rgardless, the VICTIM owned a copy, NOT the killer!.
They dont understand the industry, and 99% (there are exceptions) dont WANT to understand. Showing how they will CONTINUE to allow people to falsley perpetuate the myths and scare stories about video games.
They misrepresent games as a 'kids thing' REAPEATEDLY. So you get alot of people with the completely incorrect 'wow your a 25 year old who wants to be peter pan, your so immature' attitude.
And I'll say again.. they wonder why there are a lack of graduates? *smacks face*
I feel for you mate,
you have something that I have always dreamed of.
I come from a country where even trying to get educated into making Videogames is harder.
I am the type of person who needs to be shown how to program something in code in order to learn it.
But when I was in school, I asked the teachers over and over again that when it comes to Programing I want to do Videogame Programing.
I am so sick and tired of the only Programing I am able to do at school is business Programing and everyone views Videogame Programing as something for kids.
I can only develop Flash Games at the moment but still I have never been able to get my character to jump.
A simple JUMP function in flash is roughly easy but no one has ever told me how to make my own character jump because they all thought that i would know it already because I am almost 24 years old.
I also have a slight autism so I really need some detailed instructions that I can understand and a busy family life at home so I can't really read a book stracthing my head all day in order to learn how to make my character jump.
When it comes to how the education system sees Videogame Programing compared to the mainstreem business Programing, then I just feel like you mate.
People sadly treat Videogames as if it is like a toy. But yet even toys need a little bit of respect and love and to understand that even they can be played by adults too.
TBoneTony
The stigma is what is killing the most... The US has it too, but not as bad IMO.
Nido Web Flash Tutorials AS2 and AS3 Tutorials for anyone interested.
How to set Xbox 360 Parental Controls
The US is quickly losing that Stigma. After all, when PS2 launched, it was looked at as a hugely geek thing to be in those lines. Lining up for Black Friday, I was asked what I did and I said "I'm a realtime 3D artist." When asked to clarify, I said, "I make 3D models for things like games and simulators." A 40 year old woman's eyes lit up and said "Like Video Games? My son has Rock Band and I love playing that with him."
So yeah, the stigma is in rapid retreat.
Wall of Text Simulation- Insert coin to continue.
The most important part will be the politicians...
Nido Web Flash Tutorials AS2 and AS3 Tutorials for anyone interested.
How to set Xbox 360 Parental Controls
It's not a lack of graduates that is the problem it's the lack of quality graduates that can be used on a project without many years of training. With the constant dumbing down of university courses someone applying with a BSc is in now way a guarrente that they could program their way out of a paper bag and the less said about our game development courses (I graduated from one myself a few years back) the better.
Getting tax breaks would make us more desirable to publishers (since our costs per game will be reduced) rather than something to tempt better employees.
to be fair i constantly get told about the poor quality of game development courses.. and although some are, it actually hurts the industry, to not mention that there still are GOOD games development courses. Its actually making it harder for graduates to get jobs, because this myth makes it seem that all games development courses are bad. And some are. But there are good, highly challenging and effective courses out there.
The course i am on recently was ranked the best Computer Department to study computer games development in the North-West, The degree is accredited by the British Computer Society (BCS) to the highest level possible for an undergraduate degree. As a graduate of the course I gain Membership of the British Computer Society (MBCS), Chartered IT Professional (CITP) and partial Chartered Engineering (CEng).
It all comes down to doing a little bit of reasearch before you apply. My course only actually differs by about 6 modules out of the total 18, to the standard software engineering course the university offers. We practice c++ STRONGLY throughout every year of the course (its the main body of the course in fact), learn java and c#, object oriented methodology, component based methodolgies.
The difference in the 'games' part comes from the sensible substitutions (e.g. rather than 'web apps' we do computer graphics, focusing heavily on direct x applications, a mammoth amount of vertex / pixel shader work, and post processing effects / techniques). Instead of networks and comms (which is actually a VERY large topic that would need to be covered fully to gain any real benefit) we do 2 modules on the course which deal with games programming specific techniques and issues , such as spacial partitioning(BSP/Quadtrees/Octrees/Pvs/Portals) Scripting languages (python + lua), general game architecture/portability, hardware issues and concepts, data/entity management and serialisation etc.
All in all it is 100% a programming course. I think the problem is some courses use wishy washy 'game design ' modules as fillers that have no real substance. They end up using off the shelf 'game builder' software etc. Basically, trying to have a course focused on multiple jobs (designer / programmer generally VERY different), is a recipe for a jack of all trades, but a master of none, which, yeah is NOT good for the purpose of producing skiled programmers.
I think programming 'game development' courses can be VERY good (and infact very challenging!). I have to disagree (that at least in my case) my course is far from 'dumbed down'. In fact the course i am on is regarded among the tutors as the hardest course offered in the computing department. As i said its essentially software engineering, with all the essential game specific issues covered in lots of depth.
Although i do agree that (as i said earlier) there are some 'dumbed down' courses that try and mix programming, with game 'design' .. which are really two entirely different beasts, resulting in a graduate who isnt really..well.. anything...
And also, there is the student themselves, a student who does 10 hours programming a day for 3 years, outside of the course material, can be a great programmer regardless of the quality of the course, i think too many student these days (there were some on my course ) expect their hand to be held, and think they can just can sit back and let the knowledge float gently into their brains. (as i said on my course, those students were the 50% of the course who got kicked off/ dropped out at the end of the first year!)
Lol sorry for the rant! (im in defensive mode today, had a bad week with people criticizing my coursem, and chosen career! I get frustrated that sometimes the course leaders on my course (who have around 30 years of real industry experience between them) work their asses off and dont get enough credit! ) lol athough i know you were not speaking about my course specifically, and that you are generally right in what you say!
I totally agree about tax breaks too. Although i feel the problem is much larger. Its an issue of changing the image of the industry to a better one, getting it taken more seriously, respecting that it is a valid career, offering related choices in schools, stopping the misinformation that is rife, changine public opinion etc. Tax breaks will come with that territory. (Although with the amount of time that would take... it may be too late already)
I can say that my Advanced Multimedia course that was the only one close enough to Videogames as I could go in my own home town, THAT only had a 3 week cource on how to make a Flash Game and apply it to making a Concept of a game.
Everything else was based on Movie Edditing and Graphic Design.
No wonder why I felt so under experienced when I looked at the REAL Videogame Programming that people on the internet used in Flash Games and I felt that my Advance Diploma was nothing but toilet paper compared to the real thing.
Waste of 2 years and I only learned how to make a maze game in Flash.
No C++ game Programing, no Java games, nothing...
However the town I come from only cared about real Business Programing when I did the Certificate 4 and Diploma of Programing all without a computer to use at home.
even though I did everything with hard work, I felt like no one was helping me with my skills.
ps, I come from Australia and we are way lower on the market, but it is a shame to see the country where amazing developers like RARE and Rockstar North had came from only to be shunted by their own government.
I feel sorry for you guys in the UK who have to put up with so much negative bull shit.
I thought things would have changed after the Byron Review, sadly I don't think many politicians have ever READ the Byron Review yet.
no wonder why all 3 of the major political parties don't give a shit.
''I thought things would have changed after the Byron Review, sadly I don't think many politicians have ever READ the Byron Review yet.''
lol they read it, and now like to quote certain pieces , out of context, (just look at kieth vaz for an example) and make it look like the Byron report said games were harmful. Which it didnt. lol...
At the end of the day, none of our three major political parties give a shit.
~You Could Be Mine, But You're Way Out Of Line..~
It's not a lack of graduates that is the problem it's the lack of quality graduates that can be used on a project without many years of training. With the constant dumbing down of university courses someone applying with a BSc is in now way a guarrente that they could program their way out of a paper bag and the less said about our game development courses (I graduated from one myself a few years back) the better.
The quality of graduates is not the problem it is the industry itself and their hedonistic approach. I have tried to get into the games industry myself after graduating from a computer science course, and I was appalled at the approach that the games companies had to recruitment and business as a whole. Whilst obviously they want to employ good employees what many require is too much. As they believe that everyone would jump through hoops to gain a job in the industry, they expect graduates to be as skilled as the senior programmers with skills in technologies that can only be acquired within the industry and not outside of it, they simply don't except that people have to be trained or that graduates don't have any industry experience.
Whilst I accept that there has been an influx of dumbed down courses, the excuse of a generally dumbed down education is not good enough for employers to moan about the quality of potential employees if they themselves are not prepared to train people for the job (something that is generally expected in many other industries). How will they ever get the employees they desire if they are not willing to invest themselves?
After finding employment in the insurance industry programming systems, I have seen an incredible amount of professionalism instead of the still amateurish approach of the games industry. The problem comes from the fact that many games industry figures haven't had experience in any other business and this clearly shows in their poor interview processes and their poor recruitment process. It now appears that their hedonistic approach to business is starting the inevitable decline and they only have themselves to blame for it.
''As they believe that everyone would jump through hoops to gain a job in the industry, they expect graduates to be as skilled as the senior programmers with skills in technologies that can only be acquired within the industry and not outside of it''
you nailed it. The games industry is still very secretive on its 'top' techniques. I mean why publicise them.. your giving your tricks of the trade to the competitors. Yet this presents the inevitable problem that many graduates wont know these techniques, and how could they??
What makes me laugh is that every job you apply for says something like '3 years experience required' (since then you will have had more experience of these real programming techniques).. but how the heck do you get the 3 years experience, if every job wont hire you without it already? Its daft.
They need to spot good general programmers with potential. And then say , yeah we will take you on, you'll get 6 weeks in house training to help bring you up to speed. But they arent willing to do that...
Well, the answer to that is the same as it ever was.
1. Get a job at a place that could RELATE to the game industry (I work for a flight simulation compay)
2. Entrench yourself into the mod community. It's experience and showing a kickass mod looks much better on a resume than "I worked at Majesco on Cooking Mama for three years."
3. Get the industry bitch job, game tester, to get an inside track on job opportunities.
Wall of Text Simulation- Insert coin to continue.
I agree with your answer.
I know it sucks but it's similar to back in around 1997-99 trying to get into a network admin for something like Lotus Notes and such. A certification was nice but they usually wanted you cross-cetified in something else with 3 years of experience, by then certifications were alot more common simply being certified wasn't enough. I lucked out and was friends with a supervisor of the dev department for the online sector of a large recruiting firm. I got hooked up as a QA Tester for changes being made to the site and learned alongside some of the dev (we were all in the same office space). They were using Lotus Notes R4 to power a job search/candidate matching site called Kforce.com back in '98-'99 (they're still around). They had me lined up to get dual certified as admin/dev in Notes R4 but then the .com bubble burst and they went from a projected growth of up to 3B from their current 900M to a loss down to like 600M or something sick and they outsourced their whole inet division so we all got laid off :(
After that I almost landed a Jr. VB dev position at a company. They only requied some type of college course, which I had, and offered training. I went through an interview in which I sat in front of their devs and answered basic syntax and other common commands used to their satisfaction. Then the boss decided he didn't want to hire a Jr. dev and went looking for a Sr. dev instead. I knew one of the devs so thats how i found that out. So then I took some courses in C++ and tried looking for something in that direction but everything I found for a C++ dev required not only many years of job experience, but they always wanted you to have experience in at least 2 other languages.
I gave up on programming even though I love doing it. I used to make silly little DB front ends for MMOs I played to keep track of recipes I had learned as many did not have that kind of thing built in (Earth and Beyond was my fave at the time). I had racked up a pretty good student loan debt and got nothing out of it. So now I'm here in the telco industry and they're training me on everything I need to know, I came with only the ability to use a computer and learn at $15 an hour and now i'm up to $25 an hour with room to grow.
Some people i've met while gaming got their edge from working on mods to different games. Everything from the HL engine to Freelancer and Dungeon Siege. Man all this talk makes me want to try to get back into it :D if only i had the time and resources.
Good luck to you NovaBlack, Hope you manage to do better than I did. :P
------------------------------------
I am a signature virus, please copy and paste me into your signature to help me propagate.
You are right. The games industry doesn't want to train their employees. The ywant someone else to do it. That way they don't have to do any of the work but get all the benefits.
The only problem is that the majority of games companies don't hold on to large ammounts of their employees for long enough to train. They want to hire a bunch of people at the start of a project and then at the end, they lay off everyone except who they need to put together a protype of their next game in anticipation of the publisher hunt again.
There is not enough long term career companies for people to apply to in order to get that on the job training. That is another thing the games industry needs to change. The yneed to figure out a way to earn money on a consistant basis and not just focus on the influx of publisher cash on a per project basis.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091
"There is not enough long term career companies for people to apply to in order to get that on the job training. That is another thing the games industry needs to change. The yneed to figure out a way to earn money on a consistant basis and not just focus on the influx of publisher cash on a per project basis."
Episodic content! Release an episode and immediately start on the next :) lol
------------------------------------
I am a signature virus, please copy and paste me into your signature to help me propagate.
@Sheppy: Spot on
@Zachary Knight: I dont know where you're getting that information from, my company have numerous employees who have worked together for well over a decade, and many other firms are the same.
@NovaBlack: The time a company has to train you to make you a worthwhile member of staff is time that a) costs a lot of money b) is time that they have to have an experienced member of staff actually using their time teaching you, and c) is needed to actually be doing the work! I imagine if you actually knew the kind of sums involved, you'd be a lot less quick to jump to conclusions about why companies try whenever possible to get experienced staff. People seem to imagine that studios have these vast pots of endless money that they just hoard because they dont want to spend money on things like training staff. In fact the margins are often very, very tight, and staff costs are a very significant element of that.
That said however, many firms DO take on graduates, especially graduate coders. You may want to take off the London blinkers however and look around. The country has a whole host of talented studios scattered across the country. Try sending out form letters to many companies and if you're good then the chances are you'll get a chance to prove that. Many companies do coding tests during interviews, so you can show your proficiency.
End of the day, this is a wonderful industry to work in, but it has its downsides. The money isnt mindblowing (though certainly not bad), the hours can be extremely taxing and especially towards crunch times the pressure can be heavy. Despite all that, the number of people wanting to work in the industry is huge, and if you want to make it a career the emphasis is on you to make that happen, not on the companies to somehow recognize your greatness. You need to be trawling the internet finding out what companies are out there, and what they actually do and sending out form letters to pretty much most of them if you want to get a foot in the door. Dont turn your nose up at companies that dont make the exact kind of games you like, or who you dont personally have a liking for. Any experience is good experience, and you're a lot more likely to end up in your ideal job if you spend a few years learning the ropes somewhere and starting to build up a reputation.
"The games industry is still very secretive on its 'top' techniques. I mean why publicise them.. your giving your tricks of the trade to the competitors. Yet this presents the inevitable problem that many graduates wont know these techniques, and how could they??"
Its not usually 'techniques' as such, as much as proprietary tools, and these are generally specific to each company. Its not like theres an industry cabal out there hoarding all the knowledge. ;)
"Any experience is good experience, and you're a lot more likely to end up in your ideal job if you spend a few years learning the ropes somewhere and starting to build up a reputation."
Couldn't agree with you more! I started off in QA for mobile phone games - 2 years later and I had the experience behind me to get a design position at my present company. With the games industry in the UK we all know someone at another company and it really helps when finding more work. Just getting your foot in the door will help you get where you need to be - and qa roles don't require any experience or training (well some do
). Uni courses based in games can help as well (of my graduating class 90% have jobs in the industry now), but never look down on a position lower than your ideal as you'll rack up the experience pretty quick... especially if you join a company mid project
As I said earlier though, not all companies actually advertise anything other than QA - so as Kentonio said, just send letters to companies enquiring about positions and get your name on their list of candidates! It really helps!
Thats pretty much exactly the same as my route. :)
Did a games computing course, then went into QA for a year or two, before ending up getting a games designer role with the same company. Most of our designers came via QA, I suppose its a natural consequence of how hard it is to show you can design before you've actually done it.
I didn't say there were no career companies. I said there a few. I also said that many of those companies who have the hire and flush systems keep people around between projects. But they only keep enough people around to make a prototype.
What I was getting at was the majority of development houses do not have long term plans. Most have a plan to get their current game published, but make no plans for what to do while trying to get another publishing grant.
Look at the software industry. The IT firms in other fields don't focus on one project at a time. They often have several projects going at the same time and many of those projects are projects that will bring a steady income in after development. This can be from maintainence costs to licensing it out to other companies beyaond the one they initially developed it for.
The games industry often doesn't do that. If you are not a publisher owned studio, you most likely will not be able to pull off developing more than one game at a time. This is due to mostly the way publishing deals work out. They are geared to only be beneficial to the publisher. They do not offer very many long term benefits to the developers.
There are plenty of ways to keep your staff gainfully employed and busy between major projects, but most often it will not be with what you would think. Every game you make does not have to be a AAA title for a mojor console. There are mobile phones, browser games, A titles for consoles, handhelds, episodic games, expansions, games for digital distribution, etc. But most developers only focus on AAA titles because most publishers only want those.
In the end, it is a great industry to work in. It is fun, rewarding and has a lot of great people to know. But for most people in the industry, you will be job hunting every 2 to 3 years to advance your career because of various reasons. But mostly because you will either be laid off after that time or will only be able to get a decent raise by seeking another job.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
MySpace Page: http://www.myspace.com/okceca
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1325674091
Fair play if thats how things are in your part of the world dude, but at my UK company we work on anything up to a dozen projects at a time in various stages of development, and the management are always looking ahead for future business.
The time a company has to train you to make you a worthwhile member of staff is time that a) costs a lot of money b) is time that they have to have an experienced member of staff actually using their time teaching you, and c) is needed to actually be doing the work! I imagine if you actually knew the kind of sums involved, you'd be a lot less quick to jump to conclusions about why companies try whenever possible to get experienced staff.
These are problems that all companies (games, IT, other industry) face, but you also forget that a junior programmer's wage is considerably less than that of a senior programmer. It simply isn't enough to justify what a number of the games companies ask for. Most ask for a graduate programmer with at least two year's experience, to me that is not a graduate programmer that is a programmer. How are any of these companies going to get new staff if they are never willing to train up new people?
I've had interviews at games companies and they have been the most unpleasant interviews that I've ever had, but it does seem to reflect the general treatment of staff in the industry. Most companies these days are tied up with recruitment agencies which makes the process even worse (I've had a particularly bad experience with Datascope). I do see the career as being similar to that of acting, a dream job that only a few people get from a lucky break. I work in IT now and I can see that I'm progressing at a much quicker rate than I probably would've at a gaming job, plus I believe the treatment to be much better, Quite frankly from seeing the nasty side of the industry I have lost all interest in ever wanting a job in it.
Im really sorry to hear you've had that kind of experience within our industry, like I was saying to Zachary, thats not the experience i've had within the UK games industry. Obviously not everyone you meet is warm and open, but I can promise you that there are an awful lot of friendly, brilliant people and studios who make working in games a wonderful career. Again on the experience front, I think its worth noting that quite often a company will ask for its ideal, and may well take on someone with far less experience if you impress them in other ways. The trick is once again to just send out applications to everyone you can think of. I'd also give the agancies a miss to be honest. I've used them before and been very disappointed with the way they operate. Basically they just want to fill roles, and dont generally care too much whether you end up in the best pace for you. I also wouldnt worry too much about studios being tied up with the agencies, most studios much prefer direct contact from applicants anyway.