There are game violence critics who claim that titles like Grand Theft Auto "train" players to commit criminal acts in the real world.
A new research study from England's Cambridge University will no doubt be cited by those who hold that view.
The New Scientist reports that neuroscientist Paul Fletcher and his team had volunteers play a cycling game in which they were to told they were testing a sports drink delivery system. If a cyclist from their team passed by they received a swig of juice. If a cyclist from the opposing team passed, they received a shot of salty tea.
In a real-world test days afterward, most of the subjects who played the cycling game subconsciously avoided sitting in chairs draped with towels of the opposing team's color.
Said Fletcher:
I don't think this is evidence that video games are bad. We just need to be aware that associations formed within the game transfer to the real world – for good or bad.
Our research suggests whatever you've learned in the computer game does have an effect on how you behave toward the stimulus in the real world.
The goal of games manufacturers is to immerse their customers as deeply as possible within the game. Of course, that can be for good or bad.
Fletcher's study will be published in the Journal of Neuroscience.
Comments
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
I see where there getting at...everytime I see some paranormal thing I get a gun and go on a killing rampage.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
Hmmmm, they didn't sit on chairs that had the colors of the opposing teams....maybe they thought the chairs were FOR the people from the other team? 'cause, y'know...that'd be *my* conclusion.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
but still.. influencing which chair you sit in is a long shot from committing real world violence. For a start, sitting in a chair is so common the decision is made at an almost subconcious level, where influences can more easily tke effect wihtout your brain popping in and saying 'hey wait a sec.. thats not right'...
I challenge anyone to say that the CONCIOUS decision of getting a gun and shooting up a school would be a subconcious decision that your brain wouldnt challenge.
oh and as for flaws.. this was a test on a simulator. Games are not simulators. One involves sitting on a couch mashing buttons, one emulates the real thing.
Secondly, the participants had real world feedback in terms of reward and punishment through slaty tea and juice. IF a simulator and real reward/punishement feedback stimulating smell and taste can only make you subconciously decide to sit in a chair, then im actually PLEASED with this study. Videogames are way less interactive and 'real' than this.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
So the explicit lesson here is games with a real world negative stimulus produce subconscious real world results.
Where there any chairs with a 'neutral' color that had not been conditioned to?
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
Anyone else think maybe they just came in, saw that the chairs in the room had the two team colours on them and went "oh hey, I guess I'm supposed to sit over here with my team".
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
I'd agree but then again I'm not in the middle of a critical experiment to prove how much holier than thou I am.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
One critical flaw I can see in this study.
They related to things in a sport or racing simulation.
Games like GTA are deffinately NOT simulators and I would also question if the researcher has had prior experience to videogames to get an idea of what his beliefs are and if they are reflected on the research that was done or if they are reflected more on the conclusions he developed.
If that study is true, then I must be a man who believes that if I eat Mushrooms I would grow twice as tall.
I know, bad example, but seriusly there is always an element of fantasy and reality in videogames and I can deffinately tell what parts are fantasy and ones that are reality.
And most gamers know that too.
it seems that the only people who don't know the difference between fantasy and reality in videogames seems to be some people who so so unfamiliar to Videogames that they tend to believe that Videogames teach people cognitive skills.
I only feel that Videogames can ONLY teach people relative skills, not cognative skills.
Talk to anyone who has been in recent wars in the last 10 years who were also gamers and let them have their say about the difference between fantasy and reality in videogames.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
This is a conditioned response formed from external stimuli (in other words, not the video game).
Anyway, three days later they are sent to a room with two chairs, one for each team. I ask you, who wouldn't sit in the chair of the team you belonged to?
"And although his team relied on an external taste to condition their test subjects, the increasingly lifelike graphics and sounds found in video games could perform the same trick."
Okay then, do that study and let's see what happens.
Andrew Eisen
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
'Our research suggests whatever you've learned in the computer game does have an effect on how you behave toward the stimulus in the real world.'
It's the stimulus factor that interests me, since fight or flee has been a factor of human nature for years.
I can accept that Video Games can effect your behaviour, in much the same way as watching TV or reading the Bible can, but, for example, if the Bible had never said 'An Eye for an Eye', do you think no-one would ever have operated on that mode of thinking? It just gives them an excuse to justify it, same with Video Games.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
The military used game technology to condition soldiers so that they are more willing to shoot. Or so I have heard.
Apparently during the first fire-fight, a new soldier will only fire 50% of the time.
By abstracting ones actions within a game, one becomes "decensitized" towards the activity in life.
It's not that games can drive someone to murder, but if you are ever in a situation where you have to use a gun on someone, you may be more likely to pull the trigger.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
This doesn't surprise me, but then, this is a very simple action with a pavlovian feedback for the level of success. I'm sure anyone who's stacked things in their mind after playing too much Tetris, worked out possible (in video games, of course) skate lines through their office after hours of Tony Hawk or Skate, or found themselves miming guitar hero chords when listening to music will attest to the power of video games on the mind.
But just because I imagine I could 360 double kickflip over the photocopier doesn't mean I even know how to get a skateboard to move, and I sure as hell couldn't play a real guitar.
I can stack tetroids like a pro though.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
I've had that feeling before. After playing oblivion for a long period of time, I went to the store. On the side of the road i saw a plant, and had this urge that I was supposed to harvest some seeds from it.
Another similar instance, was when I played Stepmania on my pc for so long, that while reading a book later I had this near uncontrollable desire to press a button to go along with each word I read. Ended up having to stop reading for awhile, lol. It got even worse when I had trouble sleeping, because when I closed my eyes I could see little arrows flowing across my vision: I was basicaly playing Stepmania in my mind. Haven't played that damn game since.
As for the study itself, I agree with what others are saying: its just not an accurate depiction of games if theyre "contaminating" the experience with a real world reward/punishment system that exists outside of your own mind.
On the other hand, I bet putting something like that into other games would make some people improve more, lol. I hate seeing players on Combat Arms that significantly outrank me, so they have 4-5 times as many career kills as me (so like 40k), which means they have been playing for much much longer than me, yet still have K/d ratios of less than .5! I guess some people just have an early plateau for fps games.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
Looks like Jack Thompson was right about the real world training imparted by video games after all. Why else would the military use shooter games to get soldiers to kill and to teach them how to kill?
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
I certainly hope you are joking, soldiers have been doing a pretty good job of killing each other for millenia.
The danger of those games is not that they train, it's that they present the 'finished by Christmas' mentality. And the simple fact that people know what the 'Finished by Christmas' mentality is shows that the mentality has been around a lot longer than Video Games (since that phrase was used pre World-War 1).
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
I know you were joking, but i have to say this anyway
If anyone can show or tell me how pressing a green button, or a button with a blue X on it, teaches a person how to purchase, load, maintain, aim and fire a gun.. then i'm willing to listen.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
I'm 99% sure it's jack, so no, he isnt joking, yes, he's nuts
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
I don't think the point is that pressing a green button is the same as shooting a gun. I think the point is that the thinking involved in say... strategic coordinated attack in... Full Spectrum Warrior. Helps you use those tactics in real life.
Which brings me back to the point I was trying to make above. Free will, we have it, we use it. Just because I can shoot a gun doesn't make me want to shoot it at a person.
Anyone who actually does is pretty much crazy. And you can't legislate crazy.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
I am starting to get very tired of 'research' that uses words such as might, or may, or possibly. Give me undeniable proof, or please just keep it to yourself until you have better results. Newspapers are always ever so quick to ignore the might/may/possibly you see, and its annoying to have potentially flawed research be used against you as if its the holy grail of knowledge.
<Sighs>
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
Well, most research, outside of math, is going to be might or may. Science changes everytime new evidence is found.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
I'm still confused about this concept, which is similar to the whole "vijagames train you to kill" arguement. Holding a controller doesn't create the muscle memory needed to make you better at shooting a gun, countering a punch, or even driving a car. It makes you better at reacting to situations in a game within the artificial conditions therein. Even moreso is the fact staring at a 2D screen, regardless of size, is such a far cry from truly immersed real-world living that any responses made to virtual stimuli.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
I think the big problem most people have in understanding this kind of thing is the difference between voluntary actions and involuntary actions.
I attribute my ability to learn things quickly to playing videogames. Games taught me to overcome obstacles very quickly and learn skills by repetition no matter how frustrating (Contra, Mega Man, etc.) Also, Gran Turismo has arguably made me a better driver. Playing light gun games may actually have made me a better shot, but I'm not going to go shoot someone in the head. And this is where the distinction lies.
Going to the firing range also makes me a better shot. But I'm not going to shoot someone in the head. There is really nothing that COULD make me shoot someone in the head.
So, it is possible that if I WANTED to go on a killing spree that playing some games might make me better at it. But even if I didn't play a game, I doubt that would stop me if I was truly determined to go through with it. Conversly, playing a game would not make me go through with it if I didn't have that desire.
There is also the third possibility that playing the game would satiate my desire to go on a rampage and calm me down enough to not go through with it.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
It does seem kind of Pavlovian. Of course, by this rationale, it would be kind of interesting to see what happens if you were to take a group of your a-typical Halo 3 playing pre-pubescent retard impersonators and actually cause physical discomfort or pain when pwnd. Like shooting em in the ass with a pellet gun, or a mild taser shot. Or put any album by Journey on repeat in the room, and turn the volume up to maximum at player death only be be returned to normal at the time of Respawn. Maybe Journey would be a bit much.. maybe tasering would be a little less uncomfortable.
The only difference between the Sane and the Insane, is IN and yet within this world, the Sane have the power to have the Insane locked up.
Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
I'm neutral, since this could go either way.
While at first glance it would seem to be one of those things that would be used by pricks like Miami Jack, it can also show that games can improve behavior for the better.
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"A Chrono Trigger is anything that unleashes its will or desire to change history!" -Gaspar
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
I read this article and immediately thought of Pavlov
http://michaelsydney.edublogs.org/files/2008/05/pavlov.jpg
Praetorian
"I've been told I'm the resident skeptic, but I wouldn't believe that."
ECA Seattle Chapter
http://www.myspace.com/pree_tawr_ee_uhn
Praetorian
"If you sit by the river long enough, you will see the body of your enemy floating by."
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Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
Someone on slashdot made a good point.
"Even though they were playing a video game they were being given real-life swigs of a drink while they played. So what the subjects were actually doing was building an association between a real-life experience and an image on the screen - which is completely different from building an association from nothing but a video game."
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
This is the first thing I thought of when I read this. Sadly, not many people seem to have picked up on it. The video game had nothing to do with it. They were shown the color red and they got salty tea. They saw blue and they got a sugar drink. That's basic Pavlovian, the "game" had nothing to do with it.
When GTA comes with a drink dispenser to provide reward and punishment, then this study could be relevant. Until then, they can take this study and shove it.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
Ever jumped when you were walking down the street and a car backfired?
As an adult, do you not walk on the cracks in the sidewalk?
When you go to the video store, do you go to your favorite genre's location, even though you know nothing new has come out in that genre but has in other genres?
Do you go to the refrigerator, opening the door to look in several times, even though nothing new has been added in days?
Do you have a favorite chair, piece of clothing, even sibling, without any real apparent reason?
Did your most used limb ever become injured, and you had to use another limb for awhile and when it got better, did you have trouble, even a little, switching back?
Ever hear of repetition? habit? Tradition? Conditioned responses?
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
I think you might be right: every time I see a story involving dubious science on GP, I get this involuntary urge to snarkily reject it! :O
---
The Mammon Industry
Fangamer
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
well, lets test this. Every time you snarkily reject a bad story, i'l give you some juice.....
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
I Reject!
Where's my juice?
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
This study would reinforce your 3rd possible answer. Tradition. They were given a team to favor, then brought back to a room BY THE SAME PEOPLE. It's a natural choice to avoid what you've been told to avoid.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
Maybe they thought they were supposed to sit in the chair with their teams colors on it?
Don't really know enough about the study to actually comment on it.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
This was my first thought too.... they'd already been assigned a team days before, now they're given the option by the SAME PEOPLE.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
yeah for all they knew (simply testing a sports delivery drink system), this was all part of the same 'sports' tests to see if , as a consequence, enthusiasm (and hence support for your team colour) was maintained for the sport by the success of the delivery system.
You woudl enter the room thinking 'Im being tested here, which one do i choose' and choose the same team colour.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
What about weeks afterward? As another point, videogames do not hand out salty tea when you lose or juice when you win. A more useful study would need to show how ingame consquences(within the game, not handing out treats) affect outside behavior, because that is what we want to know. We already know that rewarding subjects with physical substances such as juice or food can affect behavior.
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
No kidding. Any study which equates a REAL WORLD response in it's study, is completely off base.
If anything, all this proves is that if you smack your kid enough times, he'l stop being gay.
(sarcasm guys, dont flame me)
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
There might be something to this. Let me play devil's advocate for a sec here...
I had been on a two week GTA: San Andraeas bender, having just got it for my Xbox. On my way home from work one day, I was pulling up to a stoplight with several cars in front of me. My first instinct was to pull around the cars on the left and drive through...
Fortunatly I caught myself in time :)
Re: Researchers: Video Games May Condition Players' Real-World
Yeah, games may condition subconcious reactions, i think if your parents tought you not to drive though traffic then you wouldn't have a problem
This study seems a bit vague? Not sitting in a chair? I'm sure they just told ppl to pick a seat and sit down, and most ppl wouldn't put alot of thought into so the subconcious choice might go through. Now if you played a game where you killed tons and tons of "red" people, then one day you found a gun in your had pointed at a "red" person then you might subconciously want to shoot that person. However if your SANE then your brain would go... "Oh yeah, this is real... I shouldn't do this"... (Unless of course your evil, you may enjoy it then)