T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts Record Sales

January 29, 2009 -

Can someone explain this to me?

Wasn't it just yesterday that video game industry trade group the Entertainment Software Association issued a press release high-fiving itself over record sales of game software in 2008?

Why then, today, do we learn that GTA publisher Take-Two Interactive is griping about used game sales?

Here's what the ESA said yesterday about its record-breaking year:

Overall computer and video game industry hardware, software and peripheral sales climbed to $22 billion in 2008, with entertainment software sales comprising $11.7 billion of that total figure—a 22.9% jump over the previous year— the Entertainment Software Association (ESA) announced today... on the strength of a December sales month in which industry revenue ($5.3 billion) topped $5 billion for the first time in any single month. By comparison, as recently as 1997, the industry generated $5.1 billion over the entire year...

And here's T2 CEO Ben Feder (left) whining (via Cowen analyst Doug Creutz) today:

"GameStop continues to aggressively push their used game business, which is having a meaningful negative impact on sales of new games," noted analyst Doug Creutz, following a meeting with Take-Two CEO Ben Feder this week.

"Management is frustrated with this trend and is examining ways to ameliorate the problem, which includes strategies around online play and downloadable content which extend the lifespan of AAA titles."

GP: We have to ask: how "meaningful" can the supposed "negative impact" of used game sales be with game publishers having just completed their best year ever?

Or, is this another case of a greedy media corporation trying to squeeze every last nickel out of its customers?

UPDATE: I should make it clear that "whining" is my characterization of Ben Feder's position. Doug Creutz merely reports on Feder's concerns in an investor's note detailing his Tuesday meeting with the T2 CEO.


Comments

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

Given that most stores give credit for 2nd hand games which go towards buying new games, the developers do indeed make money on the back of the used games market.  I notice that this neatly forgotten about because of greed.  I have no sympathy for T2.

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

I wish they could do me a favor and make sure the games were worth the $60 price tag they ask for. One of the main reasons people prefer grabbing used titles is that the work put into them is not viewed as a good $60 (new) investment, and would rather get it second-hand and save enough for a meal while they play their new game.

I buy used titles all the time. In fact, I bough Resistance, and Resistance 2 used two nights ago. I didn't like the idea of just buying them new because I wasn't sure I'd come out with a $120 worth of enjoyment out of it. (After writing $120, I realize that is quite expensive these days.) Good games, and good companies will even go so far as to get my money early. Unfortunately, Take2 really has lost me with GTA IV's wonderful PC debacles.

Get your PC work up to spec, guys. A number of console games ARE PC users too, and when you screw over PC users, you're screwing over your console buyers as well.

---- There is a limit for both politicians against video games, and video games against politicians. http://www.goteamretard.com

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

 Part of the whole appeal of buying a physical boxed game instead of a digital download is the prospect of recouping some of the investment later on when you are done with the game.  If you do not want people to resell your games, then just sell everything via download services like Steam.  You cannot reasonably expect consumers and used game retailers not to "agressively" pursure the used market when a physical product is involved.  

 

I did read the article and did not hear any whining.  To the man's credit, he was being positive.  

The issue is simple:  Sell a physical product and have a thriving second hand market or sell a purely digital format and not have to worry about it.  Those are the options.  As long as you sell a physical product, this will be an issue, so why bother even bringing up what goes without saying?  Even if you make better games, people are gonna resell them when the next shiney new game comes out.  Its just reality.

 

I buy all my music and books used unless its something I've really been looking forward to.  As for games, I pretty much only play MMO's on the PC so used games are not an issue for me.  These people's crap ass games do not get my money anyway.  Console gaming is for twitchy ADHD kids. 

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

That 'update' is unneeded, 'whining' is an understatement. "Bitching" would be my description. Just wait until federal laws banning modchips are overturned. He might have to go without that fifth luxury jet and settle with another limosine.

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

 I think this is the first time I've seen GP jump into something without considering all the facts.

I'd like to see a better breakdown of the numbers. How much of this 5.1 billion was in used games? Or XBOX Live or WoW payments?

 

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

It's actually $22 billion but I don't think those figures are available without buying the full report from the NPD.  I do know that Gamestop expects to sell $2 billion in used games during the '08 - '09 fiscal year.

 

Andrew Eisen

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

See, they wanted a gold-plated building, but they had to settle for silver.

 

"That's not ironic. That's justice."

"That's not ironic. That's justice."

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

a thriving second-hand business is indicitive of an adequate/good product being sold for too much money first-hand.

there are plenty of games that just aren't worth the new price but buyable at reduced cost.

Here are we -- and yonder yawns the universe.

Here are we -- and yonder yawns the universe.

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

Whine, whine, whine. Look, your making money hand over fist with GTA IV & BioShock. You don't have a right to the resell market, so shut the hell up!

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

You know, at least the RIAA had some level of legitimacy with their gripes over downloads (and I'm sure the used market as well) with the fact that their sales figures were dropping.

The video game industry has no excuse for this kind of stupidity at all.

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

CDs are antaquited and badly priced,they have caused their own downfall trying to control every aspect of the market, as they expand into online distrobution and what not they will improve over time.

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

Isn't a high portion of used game sales from games that simply are not possible to find new?

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

That's actually a "yes" & "no"

Some are simply b/c people rush to beat games repeatedly with the perception that they get the old "$40" entry price from last gen by buying the game at $60, then beat it quickly and then sell it back for $20, then move on. Since game stores don't always keep ordering new stock, they can simply put up used games for sale and some people will just buy it since they can't find the title new everywhere, or because it is simply cheaper. Also, sometimes gamestop will mark up used higher than the new price when new copies aren't available, and the consumer has the choice of either caving in or shopping elsewhere.

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

What about rental places such as Blockbuster or online sites such as Gamefly? Yes the game companies make money when the rental companies buy the games. But most people will rent it and return it. I hardly ever Buy games anymore. I use Gamefly and on occasion I will buy the used games from them.

But I really can't afford to pay for every single game that comes out.


Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

This is more or less their strategy on discouraging practices like yours. So far, TT2 hasn't done anything, but the idea of focusing on online, may end up where they don't allow rented copies to play online, or they make such DLC exclusive to new purchases (probably a bad move). It may also just be that they have DLC available so people will pay for it during the time they rent, who knows? 

I mostly disagree with such practices in that manner. I support the practices done by Stardock though: you buy new? You get free updates.

I thought publishers discussed about taking away the endings on game disks and making it DLC for rented or used titles to discourage used sales and such, perhaps the online aspect is a focus for this?

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

 That was a hypothetical worst case scenario, used by Epic's CliffyB as an example of where the industry shouldn't be going, as usual lost underneath the hysterical "EVIL GAMES INDSUTRY TAKING AWAY OUR SECOND HAND" coverage such comments tend to get.

/b

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

Bizarrely, neither libraries nor Half Price Books nor Bookins has managed to bring publishing to its knees.  It sounds like game companies would rather complain about something outside of their control than take responsibility for consistently producing excellent products.

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

And here it is again. If any of the moneysuits who have complained about used games in the last year really wanted to do something they would quit selling to Gamestop. Then Gamestop would have to survive off of strictly used sales. I doubt they'd go far. Of course the wholesalers probably wouldn't be down with the idea so it doesn't seem feasible. It is entirely possible to support used games without supporting Gamestop. Check out "Zero Originality", and just don't shop there. Amazon, ebay, gogamer, Best Buy, there is never any need to go into a Gamestop.

And for all the consumers against used game sales, I wonder how many buy indie games direct from the developers website? This is what you do if you really believe in supporting creators and creativity.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hookers and Ice Cream aren't free. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/stolen-pixels/5137-...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hookers and Ice Cream aren't free. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/stolen-pixels/5137-...

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

Lets see, I'm going to look through some of my older games to see which ones I held on to.  The Black Bass, Super Mario Bros/Duck Hunt, Super Mario 3, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Battletoads, Sonic I & II, Golden Eye, Star Fox 64, Mortal Kombat, Doom, Primal Rage, Mutant League Football ... alright thats enough.

Alright these games are really old but that is exactly my point.  Ontop of that it is important to understand that this small selection of old games of mine aren't all classics or even considered to be GREAT games.  Sure there are some of them included are legendary but some aren't.  The reason I hold onto them is because I felt a connection with the game when I played it and I appreciated it so much that I wanted to keep it so one day I could experience it once more. 

Three main things to understand: 1. Why people buy games. 2. Why people hold onto games. 3. Why people sell games.

You buy games to have fun, to be entertained.  Simple as that, you want to be engaged in a immersive gameplay experience.

You keep games that you have formed a special bond with.  Yes this sounds incedibly cheesy and cliche but who honestly didn't fall in love with Golden Eye.  You could easily point out several newer titles that have the upper hand on just about every aspect of Golden Eye... except for the appreciation you have for it.  Lots of newer games will absolutely blow Golden Eye out of the water by a critic's stand point but you can't replace Golden Eye.  Those who played and enjoyed Golden Eye know exactly what I'm talking about. 

People sell games because they want money to purchase another game.  When this happens I feel that perhaps there wasn't a great sense of appreciation for the game.  Some games you feel okay not having available but some games you want to hold onto forever.  If I make a game and someone plays it then sells it then it means I failed to make the player emotionally attached to the game.  There are a great deal of things that will cause a player to fall in love with a game but it all revolves around the experience in game.  Sometimes even terrible games make this connection to some.  Ecco was a terrible game according to me.  But it sucked in a way no other game has sucked before.  I kept it just because of how badly it sucked.  While this is a terrible thing to shoot for it just illustrates my point that gamers crave an experience that they will never forget.  If they are selling your game after a few weeks then you're not providing them with that experience.

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

I'm not saying people that claim to be hurt by used game sales don't make good games.  I'm saying they might need to focus on providing a unforgetable experience.

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

You can whine all day and night about used game sales but really the only thing you can do about it is adjust the way in which you approach production and of course the way in which you execute production.  If you don't want people to sell something that is their property then you should give them a reason to own your game for a long period of time.  I really see this as weakness.  It is hard not to.  Own up to the flaws of your approach, amend them and continue.  You can't stop people from selling their property so the solution must lie in the approach and execution.

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

Here's an idea, if the industry didn't charge $60 for a new game, maybe they'd get more sales. I'm not going to buy a new game unless I'm SURE that I'm going to like it. Hell, even Blockbuster's rental prices are way too high these days ($9 for a 5-day rental, screw that).

Of course I'll buy 2nd-market more often if it's an old game, and I'm just not buying new games until they lower in price or I truly know I'm going to be playing it for a long time.

 

Truth is, they're making shorter-lasting games and charging more for them (Fable 2, etc. While good, they don't have the same playability as the games listed below), instead of making a truly amazing game that will last forever (Mario Kart 64, even Halo 1, Goldeneye, etc)

 

-If an apple a day keeps the doctor away....what happens when a doctor eats an apple?-

-Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis-It is best to endure what you cannot change-

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

Without the used game market, I can't buy older games.

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

Tell me about it. I just bought a PS2; I won't be able to get most of the games I want unless I buy them used. Let's face it, who has a new copy of Final Fantasy X sitting around? I'm too cheap to buy the games and consoles new.

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

Cry me a river.

Tell you what, when used book sales (which have been common for how long now?) destroy a publishers ability to make money from a book, and they get banned, along with every other industry that doesn't whine about it, then we shoudl talk about it. Until then its a non issue.

 

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

Where did the Take-Two exec say he wanted used sales banning? All I can see is him saying that he is going to change his products to make the used market less appealing.

/b

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

They shouldn't just make the used market less appealing by making all sorts of gay restrictions and bullcrap, though. They should just make better games at a lower price with more replayability...

 

-If an apple a day keeps the doctor away....what happens when a doctor eats an apple?-

-Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis-It is best to endure what you cannot change-

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

But they aren't- the exec is calling for online gaming functionality and aftermarket support.

/b

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

So you have never, in your life, bought a used item?

Face it, producers aren't the only ones with property rights. Sure they can identify it as a problem, but there is a problem with saying "it's negatively affecting us" while at the same time touting RECORD sales.

That's basically saying "We had a great year...but if they didn't have used game sales I could have bought TWO BMW's instead of just one." They're making record profits, so obviously used sales aren't having that much of an impact.

Bottom line though, consumers have property rights in the things they buy. That includes the right to sell it used to a friend, or back to a store.

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

 How is that different to a few years ago when someone at Nintendo said

"We had a great year...but if games weren't so complicated we could have sold games to more different people and I could have bought TWO BMW's instead of just one." 

?

/b

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

It isn't, but the point is the same. It's kind of silly to complain about stuff like this when you're making record profits.

Earlier in the thread you mentioned something about "game publishers want to eat." That's a rather silly argument, these people are not destitute, they aren't out on the street, they aren't losing their homes. They're just making slightly LESS obscene amounts of money than they could be.

Sorry but, cry me a river. This is just a sign of a fat cat wanting to be fatter.

I guarantee you if there was no used game market this guy would come up with something ELSE to blame for why his wallet isn't as fat as he wants it to be.

This isn't some righteous crusade against a phenomena that's really hurting his sales. His sales are, in fact, going up. They just aren't necessarily going up as fast.

Plus, I do take notice of the fact that he doesn't actually present any...ya know...data on this issue. He just kinda spouts about it.

I'd be very interested in knowing the percentage of sales actually lost due to used game sales. I'd wager it isn't as big as you, or this guy, would think. In fact, I bet you he knows the number and realized how ridiculous it would sound if he actually mentioned it.

Bottom line, most video game sales still occur at outlets like Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Target, in other words, places that do not sell used games.

If he, or anyone else, wants to argue that used games sales are having a significant, measurable, negative impact, then let's see the numbers. But if you're going to whine about used game sales, ya might want to do  it at some point when you aren't releasing record sales figures.

And again, you've never bought a used item in your life? You don't think a consumer who purchases an item has a right to sell it when he's done with it? That sounds like corporate ownership of property there. Would you say that my house is actually owned by the builder and I don't have a right to privately sell it? Or is my car still owned by Honda? Oral-B still own my toothbrush?

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

Point missed.

He is not complaining, but pointing out that sales "just aren't necessarily going up as fast".

He is identifying a reason for this- the same way Nintendo identified that the reason the GameCube got a panning sales wise in comparison to xBox and PS2- and identifying what he can do to solve this problem (change his business model)- the same way Nintendo identified what they could do to solve theirs (aim at a new, untapped market).

Mr. TakeTwo hasn't called for legislation banning used sales, a second hand 'licencing fee', or an industry-wide boycott of GameStop. He is accepting that used sales are something he, and indeed the rest of the industry, is going to have to work around.

 

/b

 

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

He's specifically whining about GameStop's used game policy as frustrating management. Frustrating management from what exactly? Having to settle for the mid-class Mercedes? Oh boo hoo to you.

When you take this statement in light of other statements from Take Two and the industry in general, statements that suggest that they view used game sales as just this shy of illegal, you get a picture of a whining corporate exec who wants to add an extra 0 to his paycheck.

When you take previous statements as well as this statement and place them in the context of the way these companies  have pushed things like DRM, draconian copy-measures, and the overall restriction on the private right of ownership, you get a very different picture than your "captain of industy."

 

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

Whinning=complaing=Being anoyed with slow sales.

I am sorry, he is whining I should know when I see it sicne I do it all the time.... :P


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

Whining is going "Here is something I percieve is a problem, somebody fix it for meeeeeeee!".

Identifying is "Here is something I percieve a problem, I will atempt to fix it"

The latter is what Take Two are doing.

/b

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

I think someone needs to get T2 a bottle and a fresh diaper.

I do support the selling of used games. That being said EB games is evil. Every gamer should boycott them and refuse to trade in their used games.

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

I think the problem is Gamestop and their way of buying and selling used games. As gamer we should refuse to sell used games there. Use E-Bay instead.

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

You have to play with an evil when your taking a side with this issue. The question is which is the lesser of two evils.

If you support the sale of used games then you also support companies like Gamestop who are really sleezy about their sale of games. At the same time, you are defending consumer rights and freedoms.

If you support the sale of new games only, then you also support publishers which may be either big or small. Something like Activision Blizzard is someone who I do not support in their buisness practices and PR. But in return, you support developers getting their due and continuing what they are doing, perhaps with a bigger budget and more potential.

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

>We have to ask: how "meaningful" can the supposed "negative impact" of used game sales be with game publishers having just completed their best year ever?

How much better could this year have been without the second-hand market? What effect would a lack of second hand market have on game prices (clue: it'll lower them), on the range of games available to the public (clue: it'll increase it) and what it would do to the perception of games as a form? (clue: it'll improve it).
 

/b

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

How would getting rid of the used game market lower prices on games? Please they wouldn't even bother touching the price except for increasing it. Don't fool yourself if you think if everyone bought new they would lower the price. Having used games as a choice keep the price in-line really would you sell a game for $100 if you know someone can get a used game for $50?

Used game market or lack of a market wouldn't chance the perception of games as a form. Assuming you are talking about art form and form of entertainment? How would either case change the perception? Most non gamers think its a kid thing and makes us violent and hostile. So without a used game market all of this goes away... Forget it.

From what I see game publishers and developers get their money. If its not enough money for them to live on then either raise the price, create something people really want or cut the budget. More money doesn't mean better game and less money doesn't mean crappy game. They should really focus on the experience and not some new technology or realistic graphics.

Frankly seeing that the video game industry had a record breaking year and for the last few years out did the movie industry in terms of sales. I don't feel sorry for them if they can't figure out how to make money from it.

 

 

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

>How would getting rid of the used game market lower prices on games? Please they wouldn't even bother touching the price except for increasing it

Wal-Mart has become such a dominant force in US retail by using an economy of scales (that is, stuff being cheaper to buy in bulk) to offer lower prices than the competition. This is the first principle any basic business course will teach you, and can be expanded infinitely down the chain.

If GameStop can sell a game for just $1 less than the indie retailer across the street, they will, to get you to come into their shop and buy it there instead. If Some Random Distribution Company can sell games wholesale to GameStop for just $1 less/unit than the next distributor along, they will, so that GameStop will get their games from this distributor instead. If a publisher can sell distribution rights for their game to some distributor for $1 less than the next publisher along, they will, so that distributor distributes their games instead of somebody else's and so on.

The catch is that they have to be able to do it. GameStop have to sell games at a higher price than they buy them from the distributor. The distributor has to sell units at a higher total price than they paid for the distribution rights. However, if the retailer isn't buying so many games from the distributor, say, because they know they only need about ten copies because six of them will come back second-hand, then the distributor has to keep his prices high.

This is the most basic of basic economics. If you can't grasp that, then you really shouldn't be in this discussion.

>Used game market or lack of a market wouldn't chance the perception of games as a form. Assuming you are talking about art form and form of entertainment? How would either case change the perception? Most non gamers think its a kid thing and makes us violent and hostile. So without a used game market all of this goes away... Forget it.

Most non-gamers think games are a "kid thing and makes people violent and hostile" because the bulk of games on the market are shoddy cartoon licences and next-gen-brown shooting games for 13 year olds to swear at each other with on xBox Live. The increased sales bought on by a lower price point would make the market more accessible to more people.

As well as that, by making more room in stores for new product by getting rid of the space taken up by second hand- coupled with increased sales of new games- will make devs, pubs, and stores be more willing (or will force them) to take risks on different kinds of games which will change the perception of gaming- we're seeing the start of this with Nintendo's casual range, and the expanded market it has brought gaming.

>If its not enough money for them to live on

Nobody said it wasn't. But: to use Nintendo again, Nintendo had "enough money for them to live on", and they still decided it wasn't enough and started to aim at a new, untapped market, with massive success. That is all Take Two are doing.

/b

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

Wal-Mart has become such a dominant force in US retail by using an economy of scales (that is, stuff being cheaper to buy in bulk) to offer lower prices than the competition. This is the first principle any basic business course will teach you, and can be expanded infinitely down the chain.

If GameStop can sell a game for just $1 less than the indie retailer across the street, they will, to get you to come into their shop and buy it there instead. If Some Random Distribution Company can sell games wholesale to GameStop for just $1 less/unit than the next distributor along, they will, so that GameStop will get their games from this distributor instead. If a publisher can sell distribution rights for their game to some distributor for $1 less than the next publisher along, they will, so that distributor distributes their games instead of somebody else's and so on.

The catch is that they have to be able to do it. GameStop have to sell games at a higher price than they buy them from the distributor. The distributor has to sell units at a higher total price than they paid for the distribution rights. However, if the retailer isn't buying so many games from the distributor, say, because they know they only need about ten copies because six of them will come back second-hand, then the distributor has to keep his prices high.

This is the most basic of basic economics. If you can't grasp that, then you really shouldn't be in this discussion.

Oh I understand this but this assumes that the publisher drops the price. Walmart is a hugh force correct but they can't really force the publishers to change their price that much. Remember they need to make money back on the development and then a nice profit on top of that. Which by all accounts they seems to be doing.

BTW you also assume each part of the chain passes the saving on to the next part. This doesn't happen unless it needs to happen.

No need to insult people, you have no idea who I am and what I know. I do know if there isn't a used game market ok yes GameStop may not exist or not as big but I doubt the games will drop in price. I've been gaming for decades and frankly most AAA games have always been $50+ this has not changed in the decades. Even with Walmart being in the mix the game prices have stayed the same or increased. Even before the used market came about the prices did nothing. Frankly since Walmart has no used game market that they run (That I know of) why aren't the prices lower? I mean Walmart is a driving force in prices in many areas but yet still games are the same price even at Walmart. Just the fact that GameStop buys fewer new copies than before and the price has stayed the same tells me this isn't the economic force working or it tells me the force is indeed working correctly.

Frankly the point is mote as there will always be a used market what will happen is the publisher/developers will make some changes see that except for a few title nothing will change and people will still be buying used games.

But: to use Nintendo again, Nintendo had "enough money for them to live on", and they still decided it wasn't enough and started to aim at a new, untapped market, with massive success. That is all Take Two are doing.

Yes instead of Nintendo complaining about the used game market they found a niche that wasn't being covered and exploited it. I know Nintendo used to be big about renting games in the 80s they gave up that losing battle and actually started looking at how to make better games people would buy instead of rent and well thats have worked for them. Innovation makes money not killing the used game market. Makes me wonder how much money the publishers are spending to prevent the second-hand market on their games and how it could be put to better use.

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

 

>Oh I understand this but this assumes that the publisher drops the price. Walmart is a hugh force correct but they can't really force the publishers to change their price that much. Remember they need to make money back on the development and then a nice profit on top of that. Which by all accounts they seems to be doing.

I'm using Walmart as an example not of a games retailer, but of a retailer of anything. Take any brand name food item in Walmart and compare it to the price at some local store. Walmart's is most likely the cheaper product as it has been able to abuse an economy of scale to gain market share.

However: Walmart has less shelf space to play with than the specialist retailers. If some distributor offers Walmart this game for cheaper than that game, they're more than likely going to take it- and it's going to be easier for a company to make their profit by selling games cheaper at wholesale, so long as they are able to sell more of them- this is how Walmart negotiates low prices, and what will happen given higher games sales.

>BTW you also assume each part of the chain passes the saving on to the next part. This doesn't happen unless it needs to happen.
 

Which they will, because it does. GameStop sell second hand cheaper because it is cheaper 'wholesale', and they can undercut Walmart. If Walmart felt it could lower the cost of new games to less than that of GS' second hand and make the loss back on footfall, they would- Tesco frequently does that in the UK, often selling big, new releases- and even hardware- at half the cost the specialist retailers are offering.

> do know if there isn't a used game market ok yes GameStop may not exist or not as big but I doubt the games will drop in price. 

They will, so as to gain marketshare. If, for the sake of argument, GameStop isn't forced to start selling totally new stock, and just shuts down, the reduced retail outlets for games will push competition up and wholesale (and thus retail) prices down as all the titles fight for limited shelf space.

Bear in mind that profit margins on games are very low for retail. If GS were no longer using second hand as a safety net, they would very quickly start using their increased sales (due to canniballised sales converting to new, as well as the expanded product line they'd need to fill the store with) as a way of negotiating a lower wholesale price. Done right, this can both increase GS margins and lower retail prices at the same time.

>Frankly since Walmart has no used game market that they run (That I know of) why aren't the prices lower?

They're still cheaper than the competition, or at least the competition Walmart customers (less dedicated gamers, less likely to go to a specialist store, if they know such a thing exists) are aware of. Lower specialist prices, even just by $1, will push Walmart prices down.

It seems, however, that most people seem to want game prices to drop 50% overnight- and that's simply not going to happen. But it will creep down.

>actually started looking at how to make better games people would buy instead of rent and well thats have worked for them.

Which is exactly what Take Two are doing.

/b

 

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

You cannot truly judge the impact of used game sales util we have accurate sales information of used game sales in relation to their original release date.

ie, the purchase of a used game that was release 1 year or more ago would not be as impactfull as the purchase of one that was release within a year of its original release.

Unfortunately, there is no accurate reporting of used game sales.

But if I can make an estimate based off my limited knowledge of sales data, I would garner a guess in the range a <5% increase in sales.

Having worked in EB games myself, I saw many people buy used as it was more affordable or the only way to get an actual copy. I also witnessed many people trading in their old games to get a new release.

There a lot of people with varying reasons when it comes to dealing in the used market.

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

 >There a lot of people with varying reasons when it comes to dealing in the used market.

Okay, we'll use your three.

>trading in their old games to get a new release.

is more or less the same as

>I saw many people buy used as it was more affordable

so I'll tackle them both simultaneously.

The second hand market isn't the same as piracy, in the sense that second hand actually is a lost sale, 100% of the time. These people are happy to Purchase a Game with Money.

If someone is not prepared to buy a game for (figure plucked out of my arse) $50, but prepared to do so for $40, (or is prepared to buy at $50, but happens across a $40 used copy first) then a new pricepoint of $40 would increase sales. The people happy to buy at $50 will have bought the game, and the people happy to buy at $40 will have bought the game.

So long as the $50 set and the $40 set are large enough combined, then the cost of original development can be spread over a larger number of units and thus games at a consistantly lower pricepoint becomes sustainable.

However, in the meantime, so long as the $40 lot are in the second-hand market and cannibalising new sales- articifially inflating new prices at both production and retail- that simply can't happen.

How this can be achieved is simply another matter. "Just" making cheaper games doesn't strictly work- how many people do you think traded in Mirror's Edge because it was too short?- and I don't think anybody expects the games industry to operate at a loss for however long it takes to 

>the only way to get an actual copy.

Then that's another problem caused by retail. If the store knows it's going to get 50% of its original buy back within a month or two, where is the incentive to buy enough copies to go around? If the store has copies in second-hand a year on, where is their incentive to buy new copies in? If retail is not going to buy more discs, where is the industry's incentive to press more?

/b

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

Also you can say you drop game prices 50% and sale 60% more titles  and lose a 3rd or so profit you would have gotten if you sold it at normal price.

Frankly because of the focus of the industry and the profit that needs to be made they should increase prices by 30-50% the used market will take care of those that can not afford the luxury as it always has.

Prices are a problem but so are how the games are made, the games are made to be forgettable there is little you can do about the discontentment formed from lack of quality development but raise prises to off set the loses gained from short sightedness, it seems a standard corporate tactic to grow the industry while trying to stumble over a way to save it .

Yes I do realize it sounds ridiculous as it means they will price them selfs into extinction..but zippy can dial in on and mimic corporate stupidity... but with growth no matter how inept comes innovation thats profitable.

 

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

 >Frankly because of the focus of the industry and the profit that needs to be made they should increase prices by 30-50% the used market will take care of those that can not afford the luxury as it always has.

Or they could lower prices on the principle that the increased sales would make up the difference- 100,000 sales at $5 profit is $500,000- if a price drop of $1 results in just 25,000 more copies being sold, then the corps still get to make as much money, and a new group of people get to "afford the luxury" of new. If they sell 25,001, then they make more money than before.

It's just a matter of getting retail to support it- and why should they when the current second hand system works so well for them?

/b

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts


It wont work because the game industry is limited in market share and will always be limited in market share because of the console war model.

Look at Blu ray prices range from 17-35$ a video  why such a huge range in prices? Because they have the market power to push the hardware out and sell videos at a perceived loss, they have 1 hardware standard they can focus the retail industry on world wide, if you split that industry into 3 or 4 pieces prices would double if not tipple because they all want a part of the profit pie and not lose any perceived profit.

Edit:Edited for zippy speak.


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

Retail seemed to have no trouble going up in price. That is for sure.

But then again, retail never seems to have a problem with selling budget games either. I consistantly see games sold at lower price points than the current max on release. Granted they are not AAA games, but they still have a lower price point.

If a publisher told them the game should be sold at $40 rather than $50, it will happen.

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: T2 Whines About Used Games - a Day After Industry Touts

But is the market large enough for them to do that?

/b

 
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MaskedPixelantehttp://www.joystiq.com/2014/07/22/wii-u-update-adds-system-to-system-transfers/ The latest Wii U update allows you to do the system transfer between two Wii Us. Still not true accounts, but getting there.07/22/2014 - 7:39am
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