Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

February 19, 2009 -

Valve founder Gabe Newell did some outside-the-box musing during his DICE Summit keynote, reports Stephen Totilo of MTV Multiplayer.

Among other topics, Newell ripped DRM for games:

Newell believes that [DRM] that is presented as copy-protection gives a game a stink. It leaves customers unsure about how flexibly they can access their games. So they turn to pirates who offer games with fewer strings, he suggested. “There is evidence anecdotally that DRM is increasing piracy rather than decreasing piracy.”

 

Valve’s solution: battle the pirates by providing better services than the pirates do. The effectiveness of pirates, he said, is to get content to people who want it more swiftly and easily than the companies who make the content do. An outfit like Valve, however, can get provide even better service, even by doing something as intrusive as data-mining their customers’ computers — as long as they are transparent about it and can prove to the customer that taking such measures will make the customers’ games better.

GP: Nice... We're adding Gabe Newell to our list of game industry white hats who are keeping the most important person in the business - the game consumer - in mind.


Comments

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

While Steam certainly offers some nice features, Valve still crosses the line of what copy protection I find acceptable by requiring online authentication for games bought at retail.  I will never purchase a primarily single player game that requires online activation to install or launch off of physical media.

I'll give a pass to primarily multiplayer games (or if it's limited to the multiplayer portion) where the authentication service it uses gives added value (such as VAC), or to single player games that are only available through digital downloads  (typically indy/small studio games).

But triple-A single player titles like Half-Life 2 or Mass Effect (that content and gameplay-wise are definitely worth the cost IMO)?  I don't care how much value your authentication service adds, if you're forcing it on your customers, then you're losing at least one sale.  And no, I don't pirate them either.  If the game would be worth paying for without DRM, then I'll have enough respect for the effort the devs put in to not pirate it.

Authentication to install or launch the game treats paying customers like criminals - value added or not - and we can "thank" Valve for being one of the first (if not the first) company to require online authentication for games.

"An outfit like Valve, however, can get provide even better service, even by doing something as intrusive as data-mining their customers’ computers — as long as they are transparent about it and can prove to the customer that taking such measures will make the customers’ games better."

If you aren't giving customers the option to opt-out of those features (even if it means opting out of the benefits of it) while still being able to use the core product, it's still unacceptable to me.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Valve has steam, one account, one player. It's almost as restrictive as securom, it just turns off when you exit steam. It's also as easily cracked as securom.

Steam version:

1.Cannot play offline.

2.Cannot seamlessly move to another computer have to redownload.

3.can not play home LAN games with one copy.

4.At the mercy of valve's servers and steam

Pirate version:

1.Load it on your external, play on any system you want at any time

2.Share a drive over the network, play it there, or move over the network.

3.As many people on a LAN game as the game normally supports

4.Whenever, however, forever

 

No dice. How about using two, numerically unrelated CD-keys that are registered in the server, then passing out 'silver' keys that allow at home LAN play and single player play? Or just letting as many instances of a single CD-key play together as a person wants?

I buy only valve games on steam, the only non-valve games I have are unreal tournament 3 and children of the nile. The first was a gift, the second was on sale and I didn't really care. Any other company that tries to use it can go jump.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Its not quite "that" bad, they could do more and make the whole thing less inpet though.

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


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Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

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Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

You can play Steam games offline, but you have to specifically tell Steam to "go offline". You cannot play Steam games offline, fullstop, if they were in the middle of updating (which is horribly, horribly broken). You can copy your Steam cache files to another computer and then it'll just extract the required files.

Their refusal to allow LAN spawns of games (LAN only, no single player option) is just terrible.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

"... data-mining their customers’ computers ..."

Where is the evidence for the claim that Valve is data-mining customer's computers as opposed to performing data mining on data relating specifically to game usage? There's a difference between looking at the files on my computer and looking at my usage of Steam-enabled games. The first is simply unacceptable, but hopefully I've misinterpreted what Totilo said above.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

As far as i'm aware, the data mining they are talking about is every so often steam pops up a little dialogue box asking if you're ok with them collecting the specs of your system so they know what are the most common setups out there. Every so often steam pops one on me and I always allow them to do so.

Haven't seen one in while now though, maybe it just remembered I said yes and does it automatically now? O.o

------------------------------------

I am a signature virus, please copy and paste me into your signature to help me propagate.

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Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Zel

They also gather SP usage data, but its less insipid and more we gather data about the game and its stability .

 

Like Utorrent if there was any impropriety in what they do the community would have found out by now and having an a major hissy.

My main complaint with steam is the offline/online mode, data gathering could be more clear but then GUIs and futures could always be more clear.

 

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


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Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

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Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Sorry but I couldn't help but draw this rather interesting parallel.

Chinese fought pirates with "bottles, water cannon"

in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-37088920081218

 

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Gabe...you...are...my...IDOL! DRM isn't about piracy; it's about sharing. File sharing. In preschool, they teach the kids "Don't share your toys. It takes money away from from the toy companies who still legally own those toys. Damn commies." Doncha just love capitalism?

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Valve has the right idea but I would like them to expand on it allow people to send whole games to friends via the stream network as “ren’d” copies. Lend copies via steam that can be rented or bought. Say you send a friend a email it has all the details in it, friend signs up and can play for a week, if they wish they can spend 5 Cents an hour to rent the game it can be paid with easily bought points or buy it with points or money, they would get more people to sign up and check out the service thus more stuff is bought and 5cents an hour makes for33$ a month a game if once can play 24/7 more likely they will spend 5$ and then buy it but it all goes to add up to something called profit.

 

And for gods sake fix the whole offline/online thing make it passive and only care about MP stuff for online but don’t locked down the game because its having a blonde moment… mind you for the rented stuff online is a MUST.

 

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


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Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

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Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Yeah, mandatory online activation booh, Steam yeah!

If I buy any game with the dreaded activation limits, I can at least play it. If I buy an international version of Saints Row 2 or FEAR 2 (which I'd pretty much have to, given the pathetic state of the censored German versions), which thankfully only require Steam, I can't, not without taking my PC outside the country. At least, FEAR2 only censors itself, unlike Saints Row 2, which won't even install. If that's "better service than the pirates", I don't even want to know, what's bad service.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Why not jsut import the US PC version?

Publishers placate to much to local interests….

 

Valve should charge 25% to sell the US version to different parts of the world and split that 50/50 with the publisher.


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

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Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Why not jsut import the US PC version?

I can't. Thanks to Steam and the wonders of IP geolocation, the US version of Saints Row 2 only activates from the US, Canada or Mexico. I don't know about FEAR2, but presumably it'll just censor itself like the European version.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Localization is set by purchase location; someone in one country can purchase their localized version of a game and gift it to a friend in another country.

 

edit:  unless the software, itself has some freaky region protection, I guess.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Online activation and MP database connection is by the region.


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

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Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

That's odd, because one of my buddies in Germany has used this to get the US copies of both TF2 and L4D via steam.

 

edit:  Maybe his Steam account was generated in the US or something; I don't know.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Those are vavle games and they don't have sicrom on them either.

 

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

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Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Ahh, I thought we had taken this tangent to talking about circumventing craptacular censorship on certain localizations of Steam games.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

FEAR 2 and Saints row 2 are not normal steam games so you can circumvent it by buying the US retail version then cracking it to bypass the region lock or just get the uncensored patch for your region.

You can get cracked Valve games but frankly they kinda need the steam/online stuff to be really used….kinda pointless to get a cracked version of TF2 with no online play….

 

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

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Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

My friend didn't have to crack anything; he was gifted the US version of the VALVe games by friends in the US, and they installed and ran fine.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Did they have sicrom on them?

The problem with games is not all are released the same some want specific regional launches and have specific regional controls on them. From my experience its been random. Besides there’s nothing wrong with cracking a game to get rid of the wonky protection systems if you own it even if its against the law as it is in some regoins.


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

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Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Thats what "patches" are for mate ^_~



Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

I suppose it would beat DNA DRM, which would be the next logical step. You would have to provide a blood sample to prove you were the person who purchased the game before you are allowed to play it. It would solve the second hand gaming market as well...

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

It is unfortunate that such services as Steam and Impulse (Stardock) are not more widespread. I know that most, if not all, of my colleges would love to see us go to such a distrubution system, but a few higher ups in the publishing companies seem to hate the idea. It is these few people that give rise to the whole "Publishers and Devs. are just trying to extort us" line of thought, even though that couldn't be farther from the truth.

I will admit, DRM, if somehow perfected into a relatively bug free system from the draconic piece of crap it is now, could be a decent method to combat casual pirates. As others have stated, you will never eliminate piracy, however, minimizing its impact can be the difference between life and death as far as developers go. I know one guy, a former Iron Lore employee, who found himself out of a job because ~14,000 people pirated the game rather than bought it (the sales target was 1 million copies of Titan Quest to receive a sequal, they got 986,000).

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Stardock, HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Exactly! Now if someone would just cause a few THQ execs to have completely legitimate, non shady "accidents", maybe us devs could push such a system through .

 

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

And this is why Valve is one of my favorite companies.

While Steam in and of itself is DRM to a degree, it's by far one of the most lax DRMs in existence.  Plus Steam does offer a great service to the customers both in terms of community and buying new titles as well as updates.

They'll never totally stomp out piracy.  You're NEVER going to stomp out piracy.  But if you offer an attractive service you can get those that pirate based on principals, like not wanting to buy games that have SecuROM on them, or other "minor" pirates.  With the hardcore pirates you probably can't do anything to persuade them but they never consider buying a game anyway so it's not a loss of sale despite what some wish to believe.

 

Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Funny thing about pirates with principals.  It's bullshit.  Trust me, I know.  If what the company is doing to the game offends you, don't play it.  Your objection doesn't give you a right to steal it.

The justifications are more often than not just a way to validate the theft.  Take, as an example, PSP.  The common quote in regards to PSP Piracy is that no games are worth the price.  Really?  PSP has more over 80 meta'd games than DS.  You'll find most of these pirates have played over 20 games on PSP to completion and yet a $30 here and there WILL kill them?  If the games aren't worth the price, that doesn't mean you now have open reign to steal them.

Wall of Text Simulation- Insert coin to continue.

Wall of Text Simulation- Insert coin to continue.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

What a way to glaze over the real issue and ignore it.

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Pirating has become a social movement. The CP owners the CP farms have to much power and influence on society. As they seek to gain absolute control over distribution they ensure that the CP creator/Artist is forced to become a pack animal they can make money from.

Because the industry is insipid and pervasive I support civil disobedience, this is akin to the civil rights movement were a segment of the population is disrespected and walked on the common artist and consumer is fodder for CP/Corporate fascism.

IMO they need to change business models to a profit focus (meaning free non profit shearing is legal)if its making money they have absolute right to a piece of that pie but the industry will have to give up its authoritative and top heavy nature and focus on gaining a portion of "data" sales via streamlined revenue streams IE they can produce something for 30-99$ as a special release then let licensees sell it burned to disk or drive or in a retail box for 1-30$ let the market and sellers drive prices and the media industry gain a steady 50% or so of the final sale. All of this will keep prices fluid and keep volume high and everyone from the retailer to the CP owner is making money and sustaining the industry instead of a stagnant and self damaging industry..

If they did this infinite CP or "profit rights" would not effect the common man nor stagnate the industry in a vile and insipid way as it dose with the distribution focused model..
/incoherent intellectual


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

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Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Are you kidding me? Did you really just compare piracy to the civil rights movement?

Just beacuse you want them to change their business model doesn't giev you a right to pirate until they do. Nobody in the US is being discriminated against with regard to DRM policies. I can sort of sympathize with the argument if you live in a place where games take a long time to come out but that's still not an excuse to pirate it. Should you be allowed to pirate a film just because it hasn't come out on DVD yet? Actually, don't answer that. You probably think all companies should just make their products and give them to you for free because it'd be nice, right?

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

 

Oh plz nigga plz, look at what they are doing to the common artist and consumer alike, this is very much like the civil rights movement as some chose to not involve themselves in the concept that sections of society are walked on.

 

 I am talking about pirating as a form of extreme but reasonable civil disobedience like sit in’s or chain downs while protesting.

 

 Now as for “social pirating” a film that’s not released I will check out a film I am interested in and decide ifs its worth a buy and if I buy it I will most likely buy it used for under 10$ though it dose not really matter if I pirate or not because I am not putting money directly into the industry either way.

 

Should they give stuff away no should “they” the CP farms and CP owner guilds be forced to become secondary to the CP artist and creator yes.

 

 I do realize “pirating” in all its forms will never go away and always be a force to be dealt with because people want things either because they are not sold or they just want them.

 

  That however dose not remove the industries corruptive influence to the whole situation.

 

 In the end   “pirating” is either half full (civil disobedience) or half empty(greed), pick your koolaid and lap it up…….though I admit I like mixed drinks :P.

 

 

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

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Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Funny thing about getting a point across.  Are you confirming or denying the reasons behind their actions by YOUR actions.

Take, as an example, Spore.

Spore was cracked and available to all before launch date.  That, by itself, is the availability of the theft.  But placing chairs for sale in front of a Walmart doesn't mean those chairs are asking to be stolen.  There lies the trigger.

People raging, rightfully, against SecuRom, had basically two fronts of assault open to them on Spore.  Both cases can be called Civil Disobedience.

The first was Amazon bombing ratings on retailers that would allow it.  This gets the message across and makes curious users wonder why the hell _____ is running with a 1-2 star rating.  This is the most effective Civil Disobedience because it fucks with the money coming in.

The second is not valid in any sense of logic anyone could hope to understand.  Stealing the game outright.  So let me get this straight.  The developers DO DRM because of theft and to prove the includion of DRM wrong, you steal the game?  This is riot mentality.  PC Gamers PROVE to the developers they cannot be trusted by these corporations because they are actively stealing the program AND BRAGGING ABOUT IT.

The third option is the most effective but this is the one the common idiot cannot fathom.  DON'T BUY THE GAME.  I WANT Red Alert 3, I can't mess with SecuRom.  I won't buy or play Red Alert 3.  I've stated the reason to EA as to why I didn't buy it.  I'm not stealing the game because they wronged me because, truthfully, they aren't completely in the wrong.  The piracy rate of Spore, if anything, helped the case for DRM than hurt it.

Wall of Text Simulation- Insert coin to continue.

Wall of Text Simulation- Insert coin to continue.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Actually, none of that would be considered Civil Disobedience, because Civil Disobedience is directed against a government which has power over you, not a corporation that has practices you disagree with.  There is no Civil Disobedience against game publishers, because they are not the ones making the laws you are disobeying.  Some people just like to use the term because it sounds better than theft.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

 

Torven 

 

Sorry government is part of the problem as they seek to assist the corporate side since they have more money than consumers and the common artist.

 

Its like slavery, government colludes with established businesses to ensure the common man is placated and the slave in this case the artist is downed in desperation.

 

So it’s very much civil disobedience because government is taking sides.

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

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Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Then you are going to have to explain how copyright law in general is unjust (let alone the equivalent of slavery) and warrants disobedience.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Torven

Slavery is a bit much as a comparison, however the civil rights linage of laws and rules and mentalities that supports making a segment of the populace “lesser than” works here.

There are 3 main arguments against the current system 1 its top heavy(IE spends more than it really needs to) and uses incompetent tactics to create canned and safe media that dose not sell well to the masses, the second argument is it infringes on the rights of the people by focusing so much on distribution IE lending of physical goods, backing up and other gray area devices, parody, fair use, right of return ect,ect. The last argument is how it “buys” content from content creators some of who have made franchises worth millions but were lucky to get a dime from it.

 

Another argument is extension of copy right and simplification of copy right and patents, the while thing is broken which allows for more and more layers of corruption and stagnation.

 

Copy right is broken and via the CP owner societies is budding up with governments to remain in power. So either you fight it in some fashion or ignore it.  


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

But you are not fighting it to protest an unjust system or to exercise your rights, you are fighting it for your own personal profit and enrichment.  It doesn't matter if their media doesn't sell well to the masses, because you have no right to that media until after you have purchased it.  You could argue Civil Disobedience through backups and fair use after you have purchased the software, but until you can logically argue why you have a right to a copy of Spore without paying for it, you are practicing theft, not Civil Disobedience when you pirate the game.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Torven

“I” have a right to fair treatment as a consumer and CP creator, this is why I infringe on the legality of CP via “civil disobedience”. As infringement is a civil crime that’s trumped up by the industry I and others are struggling against.

 

What came first media or infringement? We create laws to limit the profits made off eggs but if the chicken is abused and the consumer sick from random bad eggs then what?

You are bushing aside the damaged system and saying that one must work completely within the rules of it. I say ballocks humans are no so perfect why should they conform perfectly? Why should they have even bothered with fighting for rights of minorities in the first place all it ever did was infringe upon the profit industry was making… this is beyond simple fair play and profits…

 

I believe that media should be traded freely as it expands the horizons of the mind and opens people up to new ideas and trains of thought. This dose not mean one may not rights to profit and enforce all profits made from all revenue streams.

 

But that aside there are core issues to the current media system I can not ignore neither can I unlearn to consume.

 

You want to glaze it all over and say what I am doing is wrong, but to me it’s better than continuing the insipid and stagnate industry.

 

And speaking of which why don’t you make the argument for playing within the rules that are set?

The consumer mentality of the populace will ensure whatever damage done to the  industry is marginalized until they srat focusing back on quality and change their buying habits until fads shift the only thing left for me to do is live my the ideals I wish to and ignore laws I see as inept much less unjust.

 

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Sorry for taking so long to reply my net was out today…

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

I still don't see how you can call it "theft" at all. Theft implies that you are "taking something away" from another party which you are clearly not (Here is the formal definition "In the criminal law, theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent"). The content providers stock remains the same before and after you download a "copy" of a game (so no "property" is lost) and a download does NOT equal a lost sale either. It's not like when you go to a store and take a candy bar without paying. In that case, the store owner is short one candy bar and the associated captial. In the case of downloading, what is the content provider losing as a result of your actions? It's not like you're in turn selling your download and profitting on another group's hard work (That's commercial piracy which IS DEFINIATELY a form of stealing).

Perhaps downloading a full game without paying can be immoral (and is illegal in many countries) because as you said, "what gives you the right to try a game without paying for it first?" but it is certainly NOT the same as "theft" or "stealing".

A lot of pirates do what they do because "they can" and the material is available to them at no cost or hassle. Solution? Make the basic (single player) version of the game freely available (or at a very low cost) but also have a "premium version" enriched with all sorts of "online content" for those willing to pay and support the developers (your account is bound to you so no way to pirate that). It's a complete paradigm shift of what exists now and it'll certainly help matters. Another solution is having a monthly fee to unlimited access to all sorts of games downloadable at very fast speeds (kind of like what gametap does only they are hampered by the lack of x64 support)

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Fine, by the technical definition of theft you are correct. Way to ignore the spirit of the law.

Of course you could derive that since the product is being sold, and thus since money is a compensation for one's time, you are depriving someone of their money by failing to reward them for their time spent creating something you then experienced outside of the proper channels due to your own specific purpose to elude paying someone for their time. Essentially you benefitted from someone else's work through specific measures to avoid compensating them for it. You stole their time, give it back.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Actually, I'm quite sure those developers have already been paid for all their time spent making the game. It's not like they don't get paid until the game sells X number of copies (or else nobody would ever work as a game developer). The same goes for movies. The actors are paid before the movie is released so they don't lose any money whatsoever. The only one who loses out is the industry/publishers. This however does NOT apply to indie games because the developer profits directly from the number of copies sold so there is more truth to your argument in that regard. However, you also can't assume that everyone who pirates a game would have bought a copy if otherwise unavailable because that's not true either. Basically the developer and publisher does not "lose money" when someone pirates, he or she just doesn't gain anything from it.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Fine, it's not theft.  Best case scenario, you are guilty of Copyright Infringement; worst case, they consider the CD key generator misappropriation of a trade secret and slap you with Industrial Espionage, but at least you aren't committing theft.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Torven

Industrial Espionage? Nice...and I thought slavery was a bit of a bad comparasion...

Infringment is a civil matter that is hard to enforce thus it should be ignored and real crime sought after.

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Sooooo there's no trickle down effect? If they get paid but their game sells like crap due to say rampant pirating, are they guaranteed future work? Or would the publisher just decide it's not worth their time. Make some over marketable DRM crap we can push or close up? Your ignoring that every action of yours to fight the "publishers" (who I agree are evil soul sucking bastards in most cases) through illegal means, also harms the consumer and the developers. 

What about the independent studios that don't use the major publishers or self-publish? World of Goo is a great example, a cheap, solid game that was praised by many, also happens to be one of the most pirated games of the year. Tell me how the developers aren't losing out in that example. How about Stardock, they are their own publishers and also publish other companies games without DRM and from what I can find a fair profit sharing agreement.(Citation Needed)

The problem with your arguments are that they have nuggets of truth and your ultiamte goal is admirable; assuming you aren't just making excuses. However, your absolutism is faulty, you cannot hold your statements to be universally true if their is even one counter example. Once you enter the slippery slope of it's ok here but not here, where do you stop? 

You want to hurt the big bad publishers? Hurt them where they care about the most, their wallet. Don't buy the highly marketted crap, buy the gems; and support the indies and the few good publishers out there.

Pirating benefits no one but the pirate, it doesn't hurt the publishers. They know it's going to happen, you just give them excuses to add BS DRM that hurt the layman. When a developer is no longer proftiable they can move on. Show me the positive effect pirating is having on the video games industry and I'll eat my own head.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Duffy

Wow and people say I miss the point…ever think that people aren’t buying because the industry is in a 10 year quality slump? That the only option of recourse without drastic life changes is to buy used or dare I say snub the industry and play the crappy game like fapping without the fluids.

 

Please the independent studio argument is highly flawed becsue theya re small can be destroyed by anything selling 20% more games is not going to save them. They are aloft on the stormy sea with no protection so if 70% of all consumers can not save them how in the hell is that jaded 30% going to?

 

There are many issues here affordability, quality,  greed, human and social mentalities.

The consumer buys en mass ignoring most of these issues you can’t deny that, then you have the consumers that care but don’t want to lobotomize themselves you can say they are weak but but lets see you change over night into something you can not be, then you have corporate greed that pushes out safe, bland and broken media as well as a smaller percent of consumers who have the money but refuse to buy. Then you have all the benefits of what fiction brings to the consumer and the social vale and respect media/fiction has for the general populace.

 

I have looked at these issues and the only thing I can say is information IE fiction IE media must be allowed to be freely traded, at the same time all revenue streams need to be protected as so the proper owner can have full rights to it.

 

Piracy is a scapegoat as men have always tried to get something over their neighbor and until the digital age it was akin to real crime but in these days where computers mimic impulses of the mind you simply can not give a limited portion of the population absolute control over it.  

 

Yes profit rights are very important as the industry will always be supported by the general populace but if one seeks absolution in this you wind up extending the bottom line and not a true revenue stream at the cost of tight informational control that we do not need.

 

So in the end all you can do is control illicit profit anything beyond that is practily inhuman.

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Actually, some publishers seem to use piracy as an excuse even when it's not the sole cause of poor sales. For example, there are PC games which are simply a poorly done port of an xbox 360 title which in turn came out several months after the original console version. What's really happening is people aren't buying it because they already own the console version or the port is so badly done that it just isn't worth it. A couple fine examples are Saints Row 2 and Grand Theft Auto 4.

Now as for indepenant publishers, I do agree with you that the right thing to do would be to support them since after all, they are avoiding the very thing everyone complains about which is DRM. However, as I said above, while some pirates do it to send a message (such as the case with spore), others do it simply because they can (or they try the game out fully and support the developer later). Also as I said above, the best way to beat that is to make the purchased package more attractive than the downloaded one by enriching it with online/downloadable content and other features only accessable to those that paid for it. Left 4 Dead is a perfect example of this done right. You can pirate it but you won't have much fun playing single player. Online play is where it's at. For games that are solely single player, something else must be thought of.
 

In summary, you're giving every pirate a reason NOT to pirate because they won't enjoy the game nearly as much.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Sporge

Its up to the individual to decide if they can over look something to do something. IE you do hat you can with the issues as you see them. IE you see the system as broken and buy used while using previewing the stuff you may want to purchase. Some people refuse to look at the issues of the system and decry the CP creators be paid when they work on commission and already have been paid more oft than not and the publisher is the one raking in money hand over fist sharing a small percentage of it with the CP creator.

 

There is no right or wrong here, more right more wrong perhaps but no prefect right or wrong.

 

“Ratings bomb.”

Is one of many options too, But the trouble is its limited and soon forgotten by the company.

 

“Stealing”

I am sorry but you can’t “steal” an intangible object unless you try to re sell it with out proper licenses. The whole distribution train of thought is flawed because it ignores human nature and human needs focus on profit and you can’t go wrong.

 

 

Don’t buy.

Don’t breath then, don’t buy gas. Its not a reasonable thought process because humans are incapable of it. The consumer nature of modern man makes it this. The industry is damaging itself further by keeping to antiquated and invalid trains of thought if they can not change then they will be replaced sooner rather than later, unless of course they buy up more laws to allow them powers over the populations they are trying to sell products too.

 

Personality if I am not allowed to legally back up protected media and run a mod chip to protect my games then fck the law. I can not afford to do other wise so what little of my money that I could put back into the industry is aimed else where because they want to destroy the forest(gray areas) for some Gdamn moss(intangible losses).

 

If anything during the past 10 years as the media mafia as ratcheted up its tactics I have moved harder and harder to previewing and buying used.

 

IMO Its not a question of leavening behind the artist/CP creator its that the industry has left us all behind.  


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Because you cannot hold it, because you cannot take this stock from the company, it's not theft?  Wow, I'd heard some insane justification to this issue but that one is, well, retarded beyond belief.  If you READ the EULA, you aren't buying the software disc but rather the software.  Your purchase, physical or digital, are treated in the same regards.  What you've essentially said in this statement is any and all digital media purchases are not purchases in the slightest.  So let's tackle the subject not from a standpoint of "goods" but rather "services."

That game you play off the torrent site, you ignorant twat, is a service hard working people spend 2-3 years putting together.  In much the same way as theatre hopping is theft, so to is the downloading of music, movies, and games.  But rebel because it makes you feel good to stick it to the "man" of an entertainment industry that has mounting layoffs due to lack of sales.  You've really taught Kelly Simkins, Environmental Artist of Super Punch Kicker XII an important lesson about DRM as she's struggling to get on unemployment because the competition in this industries job market just skyrocketed.  She'll know better next time as she's eating Ramen for the fourth day in a row, you clueless bastard.

As for No buying = Not breathing, REALLY?!?  These are GAMES.  They are a luxury item first and foremost.  They are not essential for survival in any way, shape, or form.  You have a right to breath and eat.  You do NOT have a right to play Spore.

The very saddest part of this whole thing is every downloaded copy makes a stronger case for tighter DMCA laws to be passed.  Take Spore, once again.  Look at those stats.  I hope you idiots are proud because NOW that's a number EA can show to congress when they are trying to pass stricter laws.  All you've done, in your childish greedy rebellion, is proven stricter laws need to be put in place.  Thanks, ass.

I said it before, I'll say it again.  Thieves will give any excuse to excuse their actions.  They don't want to think of themselves as greedy little selfish pricks, but they are.  Music, movies, video games.... these are not things you have a right to.  Do like the rest of us an BUY something.

Wall of Text Simulation- Insert coin to continue.

Wall of Text Simulation- Insert coin to continue.

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

Sheppy

 

Sorry didn’t see the long rant thar, replying now *lick*

 

Wow..long rant is long and miss placed…

But  bought the goods because I am paying for internet which effects economy possibility I could no get A.5MB DSL at 65$ a month and buy more games but then how am I to get them to work without net?

 

You are arguing that possible profit on something intangible is set in stone. If I buy it used it further dilutes whatever ill effect I am causing so whatever high horse your on falls to deaf ears to be because I see little difference in buying used and previewing through downloading.

 

I am sorry but most of the industry  runs on commission thus they have already been paid so again your argument is diluted even more so by the fact that the damage from downloading and sharing can not be calculated.

 

As a part of modern society I am damned to consume you can’t argue that consumption is not a survival instinct of modern man, “we consume therefore we are.”. I am also one that thrives and lives off of most works of fiction, through I have switched my main hobby from gaming to fansubs because gaming has become stagnate and has simply not become worth the cost currently.

 

People fight for the their rights and those in power fight to constrict the rights the majority have, this is all part of human nature that can not be changed. Even if there were no pirating the industry would be raping the consumer via no right of return and restricted access to games, why? Their bottom line, the corporate mentality to save money at any cost is entrenched in society. Pirating came from that same drive to save money and you have 3 great social movements at odds, the rights holders the populace at large and the criminals that are trying to make a buck off illicit profit. And within those 3 only one is criminal the other 2 are part of society that have to be balanced and mitigated.

 

And I will say it again you can not block information and you can not steal something intangible, if you make intangible things property you’ll have not only “MP3” revenuers looking to find money from anything they can you will have “MP3” police with the right to search for criminally infringing data without a warrant.  We don’t want to go in that direction thus distribution must be made 2nd to profit.

 

Take a long deep breath and think about half of what you said because it’s putrid and stagnate ways of thinking, some of what you say is true but it dose not win you any ground as one can not rightfully enforce intangible goods without falling down a slope of fascist information control. Instead treat illicit profit like drugs trafficking as it damages the economy of the industry far more. And leave the people to freely trade electronic impulses like the thoughts and ideas they are.

 

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: Valve's Gabe Newell Disses DRM in DICE Keynote

That's not what commission means.

 

Also, "As a part of modern society I am damned to consume you can’t argue that consumption is not a survival instinct of modern man, “we consume therefore we are.”." is completely ridiculous. The whole point of a boycott is showing that you are strong enough, and that the cause matters enough, to forsake something that you would use otherwise. All you're showing is that you're too weak-willed to stand up for something you believe in in a moral fashion.

 
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Matthew Wilsonhttp://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/25/lee-rigby-report-internet-firms-safe-haven-terrorists-pm wow... come on uk really?11/28/2014 - 2:39pm
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Andrew EisenThe story you just linked to? The story you asked if anyone had seen? Yes, THAT obnoxiousness. I've heard it parroted for nearly two years now.11/27/2014 - 7:57pm
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Matthew Wilsonthere is vertical fov, not just horizontal fov11/27/2014 - 6:38pm
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Matthew WilsonI think it widenss the fov, so you get to see more.11/27/2014 - 6:31pm
Andrew EisenI don't see how as doing so would not add any visual information to the top or bottom of the screen.11/27/2014 - 6:04pm
Matthew Wilsonfrom what I read, getting rid of the black bars and stretching it out made for a better play experience.11/27/2014 - 5:59pm
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Matthew WilsonI saw that. I wish people would stop preording, but sadly that will never happen.11/27/2014 - 1:26pm
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