God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

March 3, 2009 -

We don't always agree with famed God of War designer David Jaffe, but the guy is never boring.

And so it is with Jaffe's just-posted video rant on the merits of used game sales. While Jaffe acknowledges the game consumer's right to take advantage of the best deal, he lost us by saying that the consumer has no place in the larger debate over used games:

Whenever this [used game] stuff comes up gamers get excited and upset. Developers get upset... there's all this kind of tension on the internet between developers and gamers and publishers...

 

The customer's always right, and look... if there's somebody out selling them legally a game for $5 whether it's a used copy or whatever, go for it. Get the best deal you can get. It's not your job to look out for the developer or the publisher or anybody except yourself...

 

The issue really has to do with publishers and developers and retail. I don't mean this in a mean way, like it's none of the consumers business. But literally, it's none of the consumer's business. It should not affect the consumer at all. All the consumer should worry about is. "Can I get the best deal possible...?"

GP: But, David, if you take away the used game option, how can the consumer save a buck in an industry where new product prices are de facto fixed? How can the consumer get any value out a disappointing $60 game without the option to trade it in?

Have you ever seen a young mom walk into GameStop with a little kid who is clutching maybe five bucks? It's a huge treat for a child like that to pick up a used GBA cartridge or two. The game may be old, but it's a brand-new experience to him. Who's to say that kid's only option is to buy a new game? At $19.99, maybe that new GBA game doesn't get purchased. Maybe that kid never really gets into gaming.

And, hey, while I love your work and your willingness to engage, I find your "the consumer has no say in the matter" view to be rather arrogant - even if you are just verbalizing what a lot of industry insiders are thinking. 

The gamer, though, is the most important person in this equation. Publishers, retailers, developers come and go. We're currently waving goodbye to Midway. Circuit City is in the rear view, and yet gaming carries on. If consumers ever decide to move on to something else, however, it's over.


Comments

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

Every used market functions differently, and so what. No one is forcing gamers to buy used games.If you have an ethical issue with it ,don't buy them.

There's nothing immoral or illegal about selling a used product which you own.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

On the issue of whether the used game market is the consumers business,I feel the opposite of Jaffe. It's entirely and only the consumers business and none of the game industries business.

Just like what I do with my used book is non of Stephen Kings business,or how what I do with my used chair is non of IKEAS business,or like what I do with my used Macbook is non of Apples business etc. etc.

This is the way the market works. You design and build something into physical form and put it up for sale and once someone buys it,it's not your's anymore and you have no right to dictate what others can do with it.  This is the way it's always worked and I don't see why the game industry should be given special rights that other industries don't get. The consumer won't accept any restrictions, and will find a way around any restrictions if they were to ever be put in place.

 

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

But there's a difference between games and those products.  You're not selling your chair back to Ikea to sell again for $5 less than a new one.  Ikea also isn't trying to force used chairs down your throat as soon as you walk in, discouraging the sale of new chairs.  The chair manufacturer isn't pouring money into promoting Ikea.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

 Well I don't know the stats on how much demand there is for SP vs MP. I do know good SP only games still sell well. And who knows how many people buy a game Resistance 2 for example mainly for the SP portion dabble a little bit on the MP and return.

But the point is that maybe a lot of consumer like myself are not buying because the entire package is not good value. Maybe if they offered the SP only for a reduced rate you would turn a tonne of renters into buyers. Same might be the case for MP.

At least if they offered a broken up selection,they could could get a more accurate gauge as to exactly what the consumer wants.

But really I'm not trying to argue what people want more,I just think being able to be selective from a consumer standpoint could bring in more purchasers. Like Itunes and how it let's people select only the songs they want where previously they might not by a CD at all because they might only want 1 or 2 songs from the entire CD.Or they might have turned to piracy.

Gamers are not one big block of monolithic consumers that all want the same thing, yet the one package suits all for one price model of how games are currently sold,treats us as if we are.

 

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

I would venture a guess that more consumers suck it up and buy the whole package for $60 ($50, really...what the hell are you people buying?  I can't remember the last time I saw ANY game for more than $50, and most of my recent purchases have been less than that, new), and just ignore the parts they don't want, than refrain from buying a package deal because they only want one part.

I wonder how many copies of The Orange Box were sold JUST for Portal?

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

I haven't read any of the comments but I'm going to give my perspective in issue.

I mainly rent games. I think I've only purchased a few games in the last few years. Some off PSN,others at retail. But I've played dozens of games on PS3.

The reason is because I only like the single player portion of games. Some people only like the MP portion,others like both. A $60 CDN retail purchase just doesn't offer great value for money for me. Even if I rent the game for a few weeks it still costs me far less then buying the full game. By renting the game I get the game experience exactly as I want it,no more no less. And I don't have to worry about what the trade in value might be.

I think the current retail model of throwing everything but the kitchen sink into one package and shipping it at one price is too rigid and alienates gamers who might not want the full package.

All this talk of system power seems to focus around graphics,but part of the power of these new systems is that have hard drives and can connect to the net. I would LOVE to see games like Killzone2 not only offered as a full download,but also parted out in portion so gamers could buy exactly and only the portion they want.

So for example instead of buying the full game for $60 I could download just the single player portion for $25-30. Some people could buy just the multiplayer portion for $30 or some could buy the entire package for for $50-55. Whatever you want. Like the Itunes model.There is a value in owning. It means I can take my time and play the game as often as I want and revisit it later

I think the game industry instead of being angry at things like used games,piracy or rentals,look at them and seek to understand why they exist and what they offer that is taking money from devs/pubs. Flexible pricing,flexible distribution. Choice choice choice. This is what the game industry is failing at,so the seconday market is filling in that gap.

And if the retailers don't like it for now the industry could give retail disk version an exclusive relase for the first ew weeks,then after that offer it up for download.

 

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

What you're describing (the everything but the kitchen sink part) is more a trend in the consumer choices than anything. People just aren't buying single player only games anymore. It probably has a lot to do with the shift in the market to a more casual base (make no mistake hardcore gamers are not the target demographic for most companies anymore) and the increase in online and multiplayer technologies built into the systems.

Basically your best bet if you enoy single player games is to go out and look for something that was developed with single player as it's main mechanic (most RPGs and about 35-50% of the FPS genre for example). Renting is a good way to check that.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

FIVE BUCKS?! TWO GAMES?! Where the fuck do you people live?!

Where I come from, a used game costs as much as new one! Valkyria Chronicles used: $75! Fallout 3 used: $60! The consumer AND the developer are being raped!

The only place i can get a game for $10 is through digital distribution, period!

Jaffe clearly stated, he didnt have an answer, but admitted that if retail continue to rape the publisher, the publisher will push back by taking away their revenue stream. It's a catch-22 that retail and publishers have to work out between themselves in order to PROTECT the consumer.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Has anyone else heard this weird argument that a friend of mine has laid out to me? He says that because the developers get paid up front for the games to be shipped out to retailers, they shouldn't give a shit about used games sales, since they had already gotten money for the new copies that went unsold anyway and they're just bitching about not getting money on those games that are sold 2-3 more. He says he knows this because he works at a UPS shipping warehouse or something and that he deals with tens of thousands of dollars of games that just sit around there while Target and other retailers fail to claim them. The reason that developers are closing according to him, have nothing to do with bad game sales, just the bad economy in general. He also says our president recommends we buy used games, as most publishers are from overseas (something i definately had to correct him on with Blizzard, Valve, EA etc) and we shouldn't support them at all.

I dont' know, but I'm gonna guess that its a bit more than just that simple.  They obviously lose money some way if games go unsold, maybe the retailers just won't buy as much stock from them next time? What's everyone elses insight on this theory?

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

If a game sells well then the retailer will buy more stock from the suppliers, so if the retailer keeps selling second-hand games they are not going to the supplier they are buying them from gamers, therefore they are not giving any more money to the developers.

The point about not worrying about supporting developers because they are not American is pointless patriotism.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

 Yea, I had tried to have him realize that, but he just keeps saying it obviously makes no difference, since he sees so many games just sitting around the warehouse that are already paid for. I figure he'll never get it.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

I think more people would be willing to shell out a game's $60 price tag if they new they could sell it used latter. Cheaper used games halp people try the games they nevr would have tried otherwise.

I hate Gamestop and the idea of any retailer pushing used games over new ones. I still support the usd game market all the way. Things like books may keep for a long time, but game cd and DVD get scrathched and th graphics get dated. How many gamers still enjoy Monkey Isand or Gabriel Knight? How many still play the SNES version of Super Mario Brothers or Street Fighter? Not many.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

So is that why Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo are selling old games for download, and that they generate lots of sales?


Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

  This argument always seems to come back to Gamestop. Zero Originality anecdotally showed what a shitty place it is to shop. I haven't been into one in 6 years and it is so easy. Shop online, go to big box, Gamestop isn't worth your time. If the big corporations really wanted to do something about Gamestop they easily could. Freeze'em out and see how fast they change. Gamestop depends on game sales Wal-Mart/Best Buy do not.


   Don't fucking tell me I can't buy used games however! I get mine off of ebay or Amazon Marketplace and almost everytime it has been a great experience. The fact is if we ever do get to digital distribution only the amount of games I purchase will drop significantly.
This coming from someone who has 80+ on Steam, a dozen more between Impulse and Playgreenhouse, and always on the lookout for great indie titles. (CrypticComent, BitBlot, Wadjet)
It seems appropriate to regurgitate an oft repeated phrase. Amazing how much loyalty people give to corporations who couldn't care less either way.
By the By these comments are directed at the people across the internet who are screaming about industry killing used game sales, not at Jaffe.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hookers and Ice Cream aren't free. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/stolen-pixels/5137-...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hookers and Ice Cream aren't free. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/stolen-pixels/5137-...

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

The problem is the publichers are in a catch 22. They would have to work out some heavy deals with stores like Walmart and Best Buy to have them order more stock. Right now those big name stores order less because stores like gamestop have so much of the market shopping through them instead. Case in point I have a gamestop by my house, it's next to a walmart and only a few blocks from a best buy. Arguably you can get better prices on new games at either big store, but almost no one buys their games there.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

I propose a compromise. Gamestop and any other retailer that deals in used games, discloses all their numbers. Games traded in and used games sold. Prices they were sold at, etc. By publishing numbers in an NPD style format, publishers can better determine which games need a price cut to boost sales and which games need to go back to print to satisfy the demand.

While the publishers are not getting more money off used sales they are geting information that would allow them to make more money. Gamestop etc can continue selling used games. Consumers can get the best price they can find on games. So everyone wins.

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

I second that proposal!

"Volume helps to get a point across but sharp teeth are better."

"Volume helps to get a point across but sharp teeth are better."

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

I'm sure it's been mentioned but unless they start binding games to consoles in a similar fashion to CD-Keys only being used on one computer or whatever then there's really no issue since publishers can do nothing to prevent used games. There are already statutes in place for this sort of thing.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

The technology to do this is still in the PS3. All though it has not yet been implemented.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hookers and Ice Cream aren't free. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/stolen-pixels/5137-...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hookers and Ice Cream aren't free. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/stolen-pixels/5137-...

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Blu-Ray has some sort of tech that can do it from the disc itself if I remember correctly. But this is something that could be done on any system that has an HDD.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

Okay I believe a few economic ideals have been skipped in this discussion so far, but a few seem to have shed a bit of light on the subject.  This argument that used video game sales take away from the revenue streams of the developers is honestly just as absurd as trying to eliminate piracy to increase sales.

Before I get flamed let me explain why...

A used game copy cannot be purchased unless someone purchased the game new first.  So at some point, someone shelled out $XX for the game.  Now, whomever purchased that game used payed less than the original price for the game because they didn't see the value in purchasing the game for the original $XX.  If you eliminate the used game market, that individual will NOT purchase the game for $XX.  It will simply be someone who didn't purchase the game at all.  So, the net impact to the end developer is the same.

Still believe the used gaming market is bad for developers?  Well then you'd best go eliminate the game rental market as well...  EXCEPT that would require a new system for trying out a game before you buy it since general policy on games(in the PC software market) doesn't allow one to return a game when it's a piece of junk.

If the video game developers HATE the secondary market soooo much then why don't they take a page from the music and movie industries and buy into it?

Yeah I'm not seeing the downfall of gaming due to the secondary market.  Just as piracy hasn't destroyed gaming either.

Bury the red herring and lower the game prices if you really want more sales in the primary retail market rather than the secondary OR give those who purchase in the primary market more value.

"Volume helps to get a point across but sharp teeth are better."

"Volume helps to get a point across but sharp teeth are better."

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

Actually, piracy is a large reason that those games that arn't OMG hits don't get sequals. A case in point being Titan Quest, whose target number of sales to gain funds for a sequal was 1 million. They sold 985,000. It was one of the more pirated games of that year...if just 15,000 people had bought it they could've enjoyed playing a sequal.

But I digress. I think the thing is that most people are completely misreading this guy's comments. What he is trying to say is that it is no one's buisness other than devs, publishers and retailers to get into the nitty gritty of used game sales (royalties, fee owed to one another, etc.). What he is not saying is that used game sales are bad! Or that he wants to eliminate the market! While his wording certainly could've been better, his message is not that which everyone seems to be ralling against.

And to the few people who claim that the big bad gaming industry is trying to screw people into buying inferior games, guess what? We're not (at least, every dev. I've worked for, with, or known)trying to rip people off. In the end devs. work crazy hard so that the product is excellent, since not only is it a source of pride, but good product=good profit (mostly).

Woa, that was a bit of a rant now wasn't it >.>

Oh and if you want to blame publishers, go ahead ;) Sometimes THQ makes me want to punch a baby.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

I think we are reading his comments correctly. The consumer has every right to be in the discussion because it is OUR MONEY and its infringing on a relationship between the retailer and conumser.  It also calls into question as to if gamers actually OWN the game or not.  If gamers truely own the game then the devs/pubs argument is dead in the water.  If we are leasing or renting the game then they might have an argument.

This has motivated me to write an essay tonight.  Its going to be titled "Relationships in the video game trade cycle."  I'll post a link here after Im done.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

Well, you might want to factor into that that some sources there is no resale (Steam, Impulse, and D2D). If you are going for that angle.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

Yea, I totally support Steam, Impulse and DRD.  Its a different cycle of trade.  Basically when you are talking about second hand trade you have to discuss ownership of property.  When is ownership of a unit transfered.  When you purchase a game, do you own it?  If you sell a game, does that person or party then own it?  Can you charge fees or require payment during the transfer of ownership if you are both not the oringal or future owner?

I probably won't finish it tonight because I have a lot of resources to cite and even some people to ask questions to.  There is quite a bit of information to sort out if I want it to be good.  It started out as a reply but when I threw it into word for grammar/spelling/structure editing it was already 2 pages long.  So I figured i might as well cite some sources, ask some qualfied people a few important questions and compile it into a respectable essay.

Essentially my argument is that developers and publishers are not involved in the second hand trade cylce.  They are involved in the initial trade cycle but after ownership is transfered they shouldn't have any power over future transfers of ownership.  It is all about respecting an individuals property and their ability to control it.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

Hmm, I would say that when no third party is involved, its all good. Its the gamestops, etc. that are annoying since they already get a cut of initial sales. So they force used because they get 100% of the profit, plus they tend to rip the crap out of customers. And, like others have said, they really force it on you. Ebay is a wonderous wonderous thing :)

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Wow! What an enlightening position! I agree wholeheartedly, it is none of our business to spend any sort of money at all on any product put out by a game company even debating the qualities of the used game industry-or interfering with it.

The gaming industry has NEVER been about the consumer, and as an elightened consumer I feel no need to be at all about the gaming industry.

</sarcasm>

<Response to David Jaffe's comment>

Congradulations, you arrogant bastard, you are now a cow to be milked solely for my entertainment and not given a dime. If I buy a frisbee, it is my perogative whether or not I sell that frisbee to someone else after I'm done with it, and unfortunately many games sold today have less entertainment value than a solo game of frisbee.

Ending the direct response to HIS comment...

Or I would say that if I were a heartless bastard and didn't know there were innocent devs caught in the crossfire between consumers that can think (Unlike some, who act much like these seagulls : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXRgpum7OUo ...that's a whole 'nother rant about jocks and gaming though) and greedy executives. Until they clean up their acts, I won't spend a penny on their games-nor will I even give them the bandwidth or the blank DVD to pirate them.

PC gamers are taking down EA over this securom BS, gamers are safeties off fire at will with lawsuits right now, go ahead-try to stamp down on used game sales. I *DARE* you. ( I don't like this site as anything more than information on the lawsuits, but I'll source it anyway : http://www.reclaimyourgame.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=116&Itemid=57 )

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

The gaming industry has NEVER been about the consumer, and as an elightened consumer I feel no need to be at all about the gaming industry.

Why did you put sarcasm tags around that? That was exactly his point.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

"The issue really has to do with publishers and developers and retail. I don't mean this in a mean way, like it's none of the consumers business. But literally, it's none of the consumer's business. It should not affect the consumer at all. All the consumer should worry about is. 'Can I get the best deal possible...?'"

But it does affect the consumer. If I can't buy used games I will have to buy them at full price, and there's no guarantee that prices will go down for the lack of used games.

With no competition from the used games market, customers are very much affected and it is -- "literally," to quote Mr. Jaffe -- very much their business.

Heck... even if it didn't affect me personally it would still be my business: as a human being I have the capacity for empathy, and I happen to be on the side of those who support the first-sale doctrine.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

People buy uses games more because....well, go into a Best Buy and find a 5-year old movie or TV series you've been putting off to buy, and it's probably not hard to find it. Now try to find a 5-year old game, NEW, in that same store. Where are most of those games? Even the big hits get relatively short shelf life because space for games is more competitive.

The problem with regulating the used games market is that retail store chains pull video games off the shelves quicker than they do with their video or music. So the consumer is going to have less options to get the game new. Try finding the original God Of War in new condition at a BB, Target or GameStop, David. 

GameSnooper

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Makes me happy I've never bought any of this guy's games.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Only hurting yourself there, GoW is an amazing series. 

It's frustrating to see the ridiculous kneejerk reactions from this site.  I cannot believe I'm actually seeing posters here using piracy to argue in favor of used game sales...how hypocritical is that, after all the debate that's gone on here over that very topic?

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

This guy obviously never heard the term "The customer is always right."

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

uhhh, Did you read the quote?

 

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

The distribution model makes a criminal out of everyone that dares question copy right. (IE legit backups ,lending,ect,ect) without limited copy the time distribution model will rape consumers rights and ensure that thousand year copy rights are enforced at gun point.

The distribution model only works when media can only be shared through paper once you get into thought like infinite copies letting the emdia mafia hold such power is not good.

Instead focus on profit include donations and ad rev if its not ran like a non profit with public access to bank records and other info then it should be closed down. We need a real hard look at how information is shared and yes media/art is information we do not need corporate claiming rights to thoughts,ideals,words or our very own DNA…

   Now with that said what of 2nd hand, well all physical goods should be allowed to be re traded infinitely however "used" digital goods would not.


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

I can see how someone saying the used games market _might_...a very strong might hurt the market, but then again -- I'm a PC gamer first and foremost and once in awhile I will play a DS game. On the chance I do decide to go out and purchase a game I loved on SNES, Chrono Trigger to be exact, I'm not going to pay $40 dollars for that game _again_ when I could get it used at a Gamestop or other some such place for $10 to $15 bucks.


Praetorian

"I've been told I'm the resident skeptic, but I wouldn't believe that."

ECA Seattle Chapter

http://www.myspace.com/pree_tawr_ee_uhn



Praetorian

"If you sit by the river long enough, you will see the body of your enemy floating by."

http://www.myspace.com/pree_tawr_ee_uhn

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Gamestop currently lists Crono Trigger used for $35... and you're not going to definately get the case and manual with that (online purchase).   Only place you get a fair shake on used games is Slackers, Ebay, Goozex, or Craigslist.

Wall of Text Simulation- Insert coin to continue.

Wall of Text Simulation- Insert coin to continue.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

The best deal I can get is to download all my games for free.  Is Jaffe advocating piracy?

---
The Mammon Industry

---
Fangamer

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

The customer's always right, and look... if there's somebody out selling them legally a game for $5 whether it's a used copy or whatever, go for it.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

I liked my selective quote better. ;D

---
The Mammon Industry

---
Fangamer

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

That's a good point. The used games market trains kids to buy games instead of pirating them. What's that worth to the industry?

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

It all depends on the retailer/developer/publisher agreement

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

My take is this.  If I go into a used book store, and find a new book for sale as many around here do carry the latest paperbacks, I will not catch crap if I want to buy a NEW book.  Why is this important as we are all once again bashing the hell out of developers for their stance on this?

Of my past 4 trips to Gamestop (none recently because I was frankly tired of this scenario), all four had high pressure sales of used copies despite my insistance to buy the new copy behind them.  This is a problem with lots of used game based stores.  I still consider a last minute trip to a GameCrazy as the pinnacle of why I hate used game stores nowadays.

I needed a copy of Rock Band 2 for PS3 and they were the only ones in town with a copy readily available.

Me: I know you have this game used, do you have it new, perhaps?

Him: Used is better than our new copies, dude.

Me: Yes, yes, but I like this developer and want to support them, got any new copies?

Him: Well yeah but supporting them doesn't make a difference, dude. 

Me: Okay, fine, I also want the 20 free songs.

Him: I bet you haven't even heard of half those bands.

Me: Most of those bands either work at Harmonix or have toured with the bands that work at Harmonix.

Him: Songs still suck...

Other Employee: Yeah, songs suck hardcore man...

Me: Doesn't matter, I like the bands, I like the developer, I would LIKE to buy a new copy if you have any.

Him: We have a new copy, sure but you're making a mistake.

Me: Already made one...

*walks out of the store*

That above ACTUALLY happened.  So insistant on the used sale that they blew the entire sale.  Which is funny because I also went in for an XBL yearly sub card.  They BLEW a $110 sale instantly.  The problem with games isn't the resell market.  Devs don't give a shit about Ebay or Craigslist.  To answer this above...

" How can the consumer get any value out a disappointing $60 game without the option to trade it in?"

Gee, get $25 for your $60 or get $45-$50 on Ebay for your $60 blunder.... wonder which one is more consumer friendly.  Fact of the matter is these stores control a HUGE amount of the market that they are actively attacking with tactics as described above.  And if a developer says anything about it, they are under the crosshairs from sites like this.  I mean, if a dev complains about pirates, are they suddenly anticonsumer as well?  And I don't see resell value to iTunes or Steam purchases.

Wall of Text Simulation- Insert coin to continue.

Wall of Text Simulation- Insert coin to continue.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

Your missing something in that last paragraph. It is not just $25 from Gamestop and $45-50 from ebay. It is a guaranteed $25 from Gamestop vs a possible but very unlikely $45-50 from ebay.

Selling online requires waiting and hoping. I have tried to sell things on ebay and uless you have something posted at just the right time for that person who absolutely wants it, you are wasting time and money.

Is $25 within the hour not worth more than $45 five weeks after you listed it? Especially when you want to buy that new game today?

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

I have watched a 100$ collectiable game be on ebay a year and it still did not sell.

Thats about 2 bucks every 10 days, ebay is a nightmare when selling stuff over long periods.

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

A "$100 collectible game" is the exception, not the rule.  Trying to sell a used game on eBay for $45 bucks that retails for $60 isn't that big a deal, assuming you're not trying to gouge the buyer on shipping (which is a whole other idiotic matter).

I think you misinterpreted it GP

At least from that quote, I see used games being supported. It's just a rephrasing of "It's not the consumers responsibility to support your business model"

 

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

I stopped buying used games precisely because buying used games is part of what drives prices so high. Developers and publishers put their eggs in the basket upfront with no guarentee that they will reap the money back. If a game fails, publishers take the hit and the developer will be more scrutinized and controlled next time. If it succeeds developers win and publishers win and consumers win. The bad thing about this is that the gaming market is very finnicky. Movies, music, books, are all older mediums that have very set base fans that are easy to peg and please. Often making a near carbon copy of a movie will generate enough sales and theatre seats to make up the cost.

Make a carbon copy of a game and people likely won't even rent it let alone buy it. Developers talk about constantly having to reinvent the wheel because as consumers we consistently demand new, exciting innovative content. On side effect of that is sometimes not so fun games make it through even from brilliant developers. When a good dev makes one bad game, it can often be the end of the company (and if you don't believe the game companies are closing and cutting workers you are sadly sadly mistaken.) Consumers buy used games because they are a better cost for them, but what you have to realise is that same consumer is more likely to go return the game for credit and use that credit to buy a new game. If in your last ten purchases less then 5 of them were new, guess what, you're NOT supporting the game industry. You're supporting gamestop sure, but gamestop is not the game industry. It's a retail industry that happens to sell games. None of your money from used sales is going to help the publishers and developers make new games, good or bad. None of your money is going to the big three to help recoup their costs on consoles (wondering why the price on the PS3 hasn't dropped yet?)

Consumers want the best deal but they don't want any responsibility in the equation unless it's sticking it to a company you don't agree with. They don't care if their favorite developer shuts down because they know others will rise to take it's place. Car companies survive in large part not from car sales but from sales of parts for cars people already own. Once they make that ONE sale to you you're buying things that are licensed, made, manufacturede or designed by them, and while you CAN buy used parts, most people who can afford it don't because they are of intrinsicly lower value. Games don't follow this model, devs don't get extra money for patches. Perhaps developers should. Maybe since consumers like to use the car industry as a model for them they should follow it. Next time you buy a game and it crashes, don't worry, you can download a patch to fix it like a car repair, only $9.95.

No the truth is that developers and publishers go above and beyond for consumers in this industry. You'll find few others where the general public is allowed a chance to use the material for free before it's released (betas). On top of that games are the highest bang for your buck entertainment out there right now. What we need are consumers who are more willing to pay what the product is worth, and less entitled individuals who think they deserve to have something for next to nothing.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

"None of your money is going to the big three to help recoup their costs on consoles (wondering why the price on the PS3 hasn't dropped yet?)"

Personally I thought it was because they were too pig-headed to realize the system was over-priced. They still got our money didn't they? Then I traded it in to help buy an Xbox-360 elite. I'm definitely supportin'.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

On a semi related note game developers clearly can't expect us to do things like

Buy console, 3 months later they announce an improved version. Then you buy that and 6 months later they announce ANOTHER improved console. If you bought all of them brand new then you'd be broke likely. Thus tradeins.

 
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Matthew Wilsonhttp://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=144440299&postcount=1 wtf is namco thinking.......12/22/2014 - 6:17pm
MaskedPixelantehttp://www.joystiq.com/2014/12/22/read-the-fine-print-ubisoft-free-game-offer-waives-lawsuits/12/22/2014 - 6:00pm
Papa MidnightI kind of liked the movement to have Terry Crews play him instead, but this will do.12/22/2014 - 3:40pm
MaskedPixelantehttp://marvel.com/news/tv/23866/mike_colter_to_star_as_luke_cage_in_marvels_aka_jessica_jones#ixzz3MeuUl63P Mike Colter is Luke Cage.12/22/2014 - 3:23pm
IanCBecause that isn't Max Payne 3. It might have the name, but it isn't an entry in the series.12/22/2014 - 12:48pm
IanCOh theres a Max Payne 3? A proper one, or are we referring to that abomination that Rockstar crapped out a few years ago12/22/2014 - 12:48pm
IanCUpgraded PS3 hard drive to 500gb. Restored 53GB back up. Done the maths, have somehow used up 106GB already?12/22/2014 - 12:44pm
Papa Midnighthttp://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/12/drm-glitch-leaves-new-max-payne-3-buyers-temporarily-in-the-lurch/12/22/2014 - 11:55am
MaskedPixelantehttp://www.kanzenshuu.com/2014/12/22/j-stars-victory-vs-ps3-ps4-vita-international-plus-version/ J-Stars is coming to North America.12/22/2014 - 9:36am
Matthew Wilsonhttp://www.businessinsider.com/xbox-one-virtual-reality-headset-will-compete-with-oculus-rift-2014-12 can a xbo even handle doing vr?12/21/2014 - 10:48pm
PHX Corp@Adam802 We'll break out the popcorn in June12/19/2014 - 9:23pm
ZippyDSMleeMaskedPixelante: I'm itching to start it too but I will wait till the patch goes live. >>12/19/2014 - 7:52pm
Adam802Leland Yee and Jackson get trial date: http://sfbay.ca/2014/12/18/leland-yee-keith-jackson-get-trial-date/12/19/2014 - 5:24pm
MaskedPixelanteNevermind. Turns out when they said "the patch is now live", they meant "it's still in beta".12/19/2014 - 5:07pm
MaskedPixelanteSo I bought Dark Souls PC, and it's forcing me to log into GFWL. Did I miss something?12/19/2014 - 5:00pm
Matthew Wilsonhttp://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/12/republicans-may-have-plan-to-save-internet-providers-from-utility-rules/ this is intreasting. congress may put net nutrality in to law to avoid title 2 classification12/19/2014 - 2:45pm
Matthew Wilsonhttp://www.polygon.com/2014/12/19/7421953/bullshit-cards-against-humanity-donated-250k-sunlight-foundation I have to admit I like the choice o organization. congrats to CAH.12/19/2014 - 1:51pm
E. Zachary KnightIf you are downloading a copy in order to bypass the DRM, then you are legally in the wrong. Ethically, if you bought the game, it doesn't matter where you download it in the future.12/19/2014 - 12:06pm
InfophileEZK: Certainly better that way, though not foolproof. Makes me think though: does it count as piracy if you download a game you already paid for, just not from the place you paid for it at? Ethically, I'd say no, but legally, probably yes.12/19/2014 - 11:20am
ZippyDSMleeAnd I still spent 200$ in the last month on steam/GOG stuff sales get me nearly every time ><12/19/2014 - 10:55am
 

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