God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

March 3, 2009 -

We don't always agree with famed God of War designer David Jaffe, but the guy is never boring.

And so it is with Jaffe's just-posted video rant on the merits of used game sales. While Jaffe acknowledges the game consumer's right to take advantage of the best deal, he lost us by saying that the consumer has no place in the larger debate over used games:

Whenever this [used game] stuff comes up gamers get excited and upset. Developers get upset... there's all this kind of tension on the internet between developers and gamers and publishers...

 

The customer's always right, and look... if there's somebody out selling them legally a game for $5 whether it's a used copy or whatever, go for it. Get the best deal you can get. It's not your job to look out for the developer or the publisher or anybody except yourself...

 

The issue really has to do with publishers and developers and retail. I don't mean this in a mean way, like it's none of the consumers business. But literally, it's none of the consumer's business. It should not affect the consumer at all. All the consumer should worry about is. "Can I get the best deal possible...?"

GP: But, David, if you take away the used game option, how can the consumer save a buck in an industry where new product prices are de facto fixed? How can the consumer get any value out a disappointing $60 game without the option to trade it in?

Have you ever seen a young mom walk into GameStop with a little kid who is clutching maybe five bucks? It's a huge treat for a child like that to pick up a used GBA cartridge or two. The game may be old, but it's a brand-new experience to him. Who's to say that kid's only option is to buy a new game? At $19.99, maybe that new GBA game doesn't get purchased. Maybe that kid never really gets into gaming.

And, hey, while I love your work and your willingness to engage, I find your "the consumer has no say in the matter" view to be rather arrogant - even if you are just verbalizing what a lot of industry insiders are thinking. 

The gamer, though, is the most important person in this equation. Publishers, retailers, developers come and go. We're currently waving goodbye to Midway. Circuit City is in the rear view, and yet gaming carries on. If consumers ever decide to move on to something else, however, it's over.


Comments

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

This is such a strawman...name an instance of a new console coming out within three YEARS of the same company's previous generation, let alone 3 months.  How is this at all relevant?

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Well they must love people like you believing that you have to keep on buying the latest upgraded console. No solution isn't even trade-ins, it's sticking with your original console. What do you really get out of it apart from a bigger hard drive?

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Don't be a daft asshole. I still have my original ps2 and never upgraded to a slim. But Things like the DS lite which have brighter screens and better battery life. And don't even think they don't WANT you to upgrade every time they put something new out.

And what's wrong if you want a decent sized hard drive? Especially if you use your console as a multi media machine.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

DS games work on both the DS and the DS Lite.  The improvements are made to offer a better product, and to entice people who might have been on the fence to take the plunge and buy Nintendo instead of Sony.  You know many people who just threw away their DS when the Lite came out and bought that instead?

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

You're moaning that you've decided that you have to keep on buying every upgraded console. The simple solution is not to. Of course companies want you to spend money, but it's your fault if you decide that you have to have every upgrade. You have a simple choice, stick with the old console and keep your money or keep spending money on upgrading. They're not forcing you to upgrade.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...


They are forcing you to upgrade if you want to keep playing, they are mishandling the "updates" and locking out sections of the game library(360/PS3's BWC issues,DSlite/DSI lack of a GBA port) they are the ones setting themsefls up  for the fall because people want that compatibility and if they do not offer it the populace will gain it one way or another. The consumers need to consume will be fed despite petty legalities.

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

 

 

Umm....no.....


The insipid nature of corporate mentality is what is driving up prices,driving quality down and breaking the market they are trying to grasp at things they have no right to and if they keep on grasping at all the wrong things they will implode on their own arrogance.

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

Yes.

Pirating, buying used copies of games which send no money back to the devs, those things have no effect on whether companies can afford to hire highly skilled people and pay them for hundreds of hours of work. Not at all.

The consumers never do anythign to hurt the market. FACEPALM

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Everyone is hurting the market in some way if you make such a claim. DRM, huge licenses fees, publisher fees, IP, copyright, retailer practices, distribution methods, lack of universal console, high deveopment costs; all of these things can be argued to hurting the market.

Consumers drive the market.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Yes consumers drive the market I agree, and publishers and devs make mistakes too. But you cannot make a case that used game sales help keep the publishers or developers in business. They don't. At most it can be shown that used games keep the retailers in business but that's about it.

What needs to happen is publishers need to set more varied price points and start using other forms of marketing (toys, mini-games, DD, etc.) and consumers need to man up and shop to support the devs they want to see stay in business. But you can't expect companies to stay open when they continually don't make the money back they put in to make the game because people aren't buying it new and sending them that money.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

I can give one simple example of how the second hand market keeps them in business. The fact that many buyers factor in the tradeback value towards buying a copy of the game. Yes, they spend $60, and make $20 back, $40 lost and they are satisfied with their purchase. If they couldn't trade it back in, most likely would just hold out or stop buying altogether should they get burned. Perhaps most just simply wait on the price to drop.

 

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

Since we are talking about cars, let's talk.

Let's think about where car companies actually make their money. Surethey make a large part of it through replacement parts, but you forgot another part of their income, a major part. Upgrades.

You heard me right. Upgrades. Not every car that rolls off the lot is the same. Some people have new rims installed, a dvd player, multi disk changers, new mufflers, better speakers etc. All that is more money in the pocket of the car companies.

Now think about that and compare it to games. Do you think every owner of Rock Band or Guitar hero has the same song list? Sure they have the same basic songs that came with the disk, but they have downloaded a purchased differnet tracks from the store.

This can happen for more than just music games. Any games that have levels or really anything can be expanded and allow the customer to customize their playing experience in some way. Plus if you have a standard way of created said content, its cost is minimalized.

So why is this a good thing? For one, it adds longevity to the title. And two, it adds an income stream that is immune to the used market.

Let's see it happen.

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

And when the companies start charging for patches to pay their developers to work after the game has released what will the masses say?

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Patches are a whole different ball game. Patches would be like a car's factory defects that are repaired under warrantee and the manufacturer eats all costs. Patches should never and never will be an added cost to game consumers. Any company that tries to sell the patches will most likely fail shortly after introducing that policy.

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

EZK

Patches and bonus stuff can be seperated and distrobuted as need to have and soemthign sellable.

The trouble is the anture of the indutry dose not allow for change easily that and the indutry is sue to hit and run tactics after a game is released...

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

I would disagree, at least depending on the patch. Fixing a bug yes but a lot of patches now include new content. Frankly the future I think is going to be no free content ever. Developers are going to start (in fact they already have) leaving things out that aren't necessary to the game and only allowing you to access them if you buy the extra downloadable content. Consumers will hate it but frankly we've made our own bed with this.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

I think this is becoming more and more true with the rise of DLCs, and I think its a damn good thing. 

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

I don't entirely understand. What you're saying as I understand it is that used games and credit and coupons don't support the game industry because they help out the store.

When you buy a game there is no percentile funneled back to the game industry (to lump it all together). The store buys Games, and they will continue to order them reguardless of rather you use coupons or used game credit. When you buy from them it's considered supporting the industry because they will order more from the gaming companies. You rarely call a gaming company up and order directly from them to avoid markup for store profit.

Also it's different with a game then a movie. Demos rarely turn out to be actuall reflections of the games, and when you buy a game you have at least 24 hours with it usually. So if it's a bad game it's not like you've just spent 10 dollars on a bargain shelf and you're getting the semi new title that sucked. It's just an hour and only 10 dollars. You're magnifying that a lot with games.

And as far as "reinventing the wheel" consumers are allowed to not want total rehash crap shoved back in their face. Neither the companies, nor the consumers would be anywhere without each other. Which is why the customer should support things they like, but they shouldn't just go GAMING INDUSTRY WE LOVE YOU LET US GIVE YOU ALL OUR MONEY!, and the companies should work hard to put out quality.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

I just realized where my typo was and apoligize, I meant to say that the people buying used will return for credit and buy more used copies, not new. I would wager that a larger portion of the used games in gamestop have been returned more then once then the games that were only returned once. Can't prove it but it's my guess based on the behavior (buy used, return, buy used again because it makes the credit go farther, return buy used again) that most gamers who use the trade in system exhibit. If you tend to keep games you might buy them used but you won't be returning unless it's really bad.

To simplify the people who trade in are obviously also the ones who will buy used more often to make their trade in go further. Rarely will they buy new and when they do it will still most likely go back into the used cycle. The end result is that the "money" going into the system is lowered more and more as the game is out longer, and since gamestop has this amazing habit of having used copies of a game on release day I can see how it seriously inhibits their need to buy as many new copies as they might.

Now consider that each game developer is a different entity and that these consumers are most likely not only buying from one dev/publisher then the amount of money they are giving to the industry from themselves only ever comes from at most a slight (I would guess 30-45%) percentage of their purchases while the rest goes only to gamestop. Because credit is more often used to purchase used games then old (it saves the consumer money) not even the small offset amount is going back to the devs or publisher because gamestop isn't selling new games and purchasing more.

That's why I only buy new, I know my purchase is going to prompt them to buy more new copies and support the devs.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

You're missing something in your equation. I cannot afford to buy new games regularly and am often disconserted by how bad they are. I.E. Izuna stopped me from buying any DS games for a long while. If I had bought Black new at the price of 50 bucks I would of screamed and gone back to the companie to slit someones throat with the broken pieces of the game in my dreams I hate that game so much.

But Wild Arms 3 I would of never been able to play had I not bought it used because It was out of print and no one had a new copy. So by buying only new games I not only would of missed this, one of my alltime favorite video games, I would of never bought Wild Arms 4 new. And I would of never bought the special edition of Wild arms 5 new at the time of release even though it was quite a dissapointment and has led me to believe the quality of releases have been deteriorating. Many times when I buy used games they also allow me to guage a franchise. If I had not bought several Resident Evil games used, I would of never even bothered with RE4, one of my favorite games of all time and my motivation to save up for a console and get 5.

So essentially used games have sold a console to me when I get the cash. And trust me nothing else so far has convinced me to buy one before I heard about some of the special stuff in 5 like offline co-op.

Also my collection of games is heavily anime based as well. I'm a major fanboy and love Gundam and a few other series. But the Game Stores often don't order them in in more then a couple copies because they are "specialty" games. So My options are buy it used, or hope walmart or amazon or ebay has it. Game Crazy initially only ordered a few copies of .hack//Gu and Infection in this area, and even though they're almost always sold out of their "speciality" games, they never consider ordering more in at a time. And I just use Gamecrazy as example so much cause it's the closest game store. The others are hour or two away.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

"You're missing something in your equation. I cannot afford to buy new games regularly and am often disconserted by how bad they are. I.E. Izuna stopped me from buying any DS games for a long while. If I had bought Black new at the price of 50 bucks I would of screamed and gone back to the companie to slit someones throat with the broken pieces of the game in my dreams I hate that game so much."

Which also means that the developers of these games never get a dime of the money you spend on them - Gamestop is getting it all.  This doesn't strike you as a problem?

A portion of used games sales should go to the developers.  If they make a game that is still worth buying three years after release, they deserve compensation for producing a quality product.  If the only way a particular consumer can possibly afford a game is to wait for it to available used, then so be it, but some amount of the money they spend on that used product should go to support the developer.  The games that do sell, sadly, do have to support the (many) others that don't.

The problem with this is that obviously Gamestop (or whomever) would raise the prices of used games across the board if they were ever made to pay devs for used sales.  But why is the used game retailer deserving of more profit off of games than the developers that create them?

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Games that are out of print don't fit into the equation at all. The company had stopped making them new so of course there's no way for you to buy it new, there's no way for you to give that company money for the game so I don't really see that as hurting anyone.

As far as making bad choices buying something (IE this game sucked hard I regret buying it) that's the danger of being a consumer of anything, you take that risk buying and if you think it sucks remember the dev name and don't buy from them again. This is also where reviews, demoes and word of mouth comes in, videogames aren't anymore limited then any other market in this regard so you can't use that as an excuse. Be a smarter consumer and look up previews, play demoes or rent the game before you buy it.

As far as specialty games go, stores often change what they stock based on sales, gamestop is famous for not only it's used sales but also it's willingness to order in obscure titles for it's shoppers. You can also buy online. Not using those options is not the developer's faults. It's interesting that you use the fact that the store DOESN'T buy new copies (doesn't support the companies making the games you want) as a way to justify not supporting the companies that make the games you want to buy.

Finally as far as your point about RE that's great, but would your love of the game series be any less if you had paid more? Would it have been seriously hindered by just waiting for the new copy price to fall? This doesn't support either side. Except that if RE hadn't sold enough new copies the company would never have made sequels for you to enjoy.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Way to totally miss the point.

Firstly The gaming stores dont' just not order in new copies and only buy old copies. They just don't order in sufficient new copies and take almost any used game in the right condition.

As far as Resident evil goes. I was never able to afford them full priced at the time and I had grown out of the whole zombie interest by the time resident evil 4 came out. So the choice between buying Resident Evil used and Final Fantasy new At the time. If I had enough money that day or was going to in a month I would of opted for Final Fantasy tactics. But I wasn't going to so I bought the incredibly cheap copy of Resident Evil. From that stemmed Brand new purchases of

RE1 Gamecube, RE4 (Gamers choice) and a few used ones. Additionally TWICE I've loved a game so much, and fear my stuff getting broken, that I bought used copies to backup two of my favorite games. So later when some of my stuff got stolen I was quite fortunate to have done so. Something I coulnd't of done if I was rebuying those games full price.

Also you said you buy ONLY new games, thus you don't buy out of print games used and appeared to not support it at all. And I say yes, if I had bought Dead Aim brand new for RE I would of lost all faith in the series. BTW I did look at the reviews for Black and preview the first level. I wasn't able to properly identify issues and what total BS the game was until I had further played through the game. And as far as waiting for the price to fall, what fall 5 dollars? Good games prices don't fall for over a year a lot of times. Some companies got into the habit of pushing back the date of a greatest hits release during the ps2 cycle just so they could sell a few more copies of the full priced game.

As far as dualing new/used copies. Not everyone is going to go for used. I like to own stuff new when I can, but I just can't afford it all the time. IF the price is five dollars cheaper and I can get it new, fuck that I'll wait and get 5 more dollars and get it new. Most people seem to feel the same way. The consumers aren't just out and about to rip off gaming companies.

BTW There is a game I did pirate once then bought. SRW OG. I played it emulated, loved it so much, I made it my mission to buy it. And as far as ordering in obscure games, Gamestops service is shit.

"Do you have Growlanser?"

"What the fucks a Growlanser?"

"Why don't you try looking it up and seeing?"

"We have Xenogears."

"I want Growlanser."

"Well our computer says that's out of print we can't get it for you."

"But you have Xenogears?"

"I don't know man."

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

I buy out of print games rarely, last one was an old dreamcast copy of House of the Dead 2. Like I said I believe in that post, out of print no harm no foul, but if you're going to say you're doing it for money's sake, be responsible and don't encourage the biggest retailer in the game industry to continue screwing over the devs. Buy from amazon or ebay, you'll get even better deals and won't hurt the market nearly as much. WHen you're ready to buy new buy from wherever.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

"But Wild Arms 3 I would of never been able to play had I not bought it used because It was out of print and no one had a new copy."

This.

If it wasn't for the used market, certain titles would be just gone, no way anyone would ever be able to get them or enjoy them.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

I agree this is fine but why does the second hand market have to be used to directly counter new sales (Buy used for $5 less)? Why can't it be reserved to games no longer in print?

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Simple, first sale doctrine is absolute. Customers have no obligation as to what they can do with something they bought. If it was reserved for games that are no longer in print then all used game sales can be voided by a company's claim that they are still in print and aren't obligated to keep them in print and can't force a retailer to order new stock. This effectively voids first sale doctrine in an interesting way.

Do you see the problem now?

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

Boohoo hoo dev boo hoo hoo, you forget one simple and vital thing you can not artificially force consumers to buy your products forcing limiting sales forcing high prices all of these are artificial means of gaining profit if you do not get the product out their as widely as you can as fast as you can you make your self illrevleant to the needs of the populace you seek to sell too.

 

Its comeing to the point you might sell 10 if not 100X more by halveing that 50$ price that has trouble selling milloins of copies now and then, short and long trem it only takes selling twice as much to break even thats easily done at near half price and if you are a copentant publisher and offer world wide day one you'll sell more than 2X and that means you'll make a profit.


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

Here's the problem, just like eliminating second hand sales does not mean every second hand sale will become a first hand sale. Lowering price does not mean there will be any jump in first hand sales. GS will still offer 10% trade in and $5 off the new price and consumers will still buy it used. And devs and publishers will just lose out that much harder.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back


Thats not really the issue its the mindless bottom line mentality corporate has they think if they force people to buy stuff then own it for a limited amount of time combined with infinite CP they will make more money.

 


Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.


http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com


Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.

---

http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

I see, basically your point is it doesn't matter what actual evidence there is that second hand sales hurt developers, develoers and publishers are all greedy bastards who evilly target their audience for scam cash so they can't possibly claim any negative side effects and the facts don't matter.

Now really, who's being faceitous?

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

GP,

David isn't saying that gamers cannot weigh in on the issue. You are infering your own thinking into his comments.  He is trying to communicate that the issue is a business issue between developers, producers, and content re-sellers.  That being the case, the end user hasn't entered the equation.

 

thelobbyist.net - live it, love it, debate

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

I don't quite get what he's saying at the end. Look out for yourself and get the best price, but stay out of your favorite companies dealings.

If it effects your getting the best price which you're supposed to be doing say out of it? If you have stock in Gamestop (do they have public?) you're still supposed to stay out of it? If the gaming industry suddenly gets used games essentially outlawed stay out of it? o.O How is getting screwed over not your buisness?

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Actually I think he's refering to the pain in the ass used games are with regards to publisher/developer deals. Do you get pain royalties on used game sales? Do they count towards target sale goals the publisher sets? It is really a mess. I think what he's trying to say is try and find the best deal, but don't worry about the inner machinations, cause they suck. And the last thing we need is to deal with is angry letters from customers while we are busy fighting the publisher over our contract details.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Some industries brag about their resale value.  Some industries are excited when their product is so useful, so well designed, has such staying power that a secondary market opens up to promote their product.

Imagine a product so cool, you can use it and then recoup some of your value out of it, usually then used to buy MORE of that product.

Apply the attitude of these "industry insiders" to any other industry and their rediculous viewpoint is exposed for what it is.  Heck, the automobile industry ADVERTISES a used product market.  Do you hear furniture, musical instrument, or tool companies complaining about Craigslist? Is the fact that I can purchase previously owned movies decimating the DVD industry?  

FACT: Video game sales are now HIGHER than they have ever been.  So, please don't try and tell me publishers are "losing money". 

These attitudes are unique to manufactures of Intellectual Property based products.   Publishers of Books, Music, Video, and Video Games apparently think they have the right to dictate how their products are used and valued by their customers.  Mr. Jaffe, you do not.  Your job is to build a good product that people will buy.  The same as a car manufacturer.  The longevity and secondary market for your products is a positive reflection of the value of your product, not an opportunity for your greed to find another way to profit from every use of your product.   Manufacturers of consumer products do not get to participate in all secondary and tertiary transactions of those products.  I'm sorry you don't like that.  Welcome to the U.S.A.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

The trouble with the car argument (which always, always comes up in these debates) is that new/newer cars have a higher intrinsic value than used cars.  Parts wear, seats tear, fuel ecnomy drops, etc.  Products of the Intellectual Property class have no such value falloff, which is why they're understandbly concerned about the used market - it undercuts them in a way that cars (or furniture, or any other solid product) are not.  There is a clear incentive to buying a new/newer car that isn't there for games - a used game, at worst, might have a damaged instruction manual, and almost no one reads those anyways.

The solution, given what you pose, is that the IP makers should include content that has intrinsic first-time value.  Some have tried this, with things such as pre-order / new-game-included DLC which is then available for purchase by anyone that buys the game used (because it was already redeemed by whoever bought it new).  This makes the IP products mirror physical products in terms of valuation, and yet this brought yet more complaints.

Thus, which is it to be?  Either IP developers need to give their products a value wrt. new vs used, or the used market needs to change, but one or the other is likely to happen to bring games more in line with the markets of physical products.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Fair enough on the car/furniture analogy.  You make a very valid point.

Due to your last points, I'd like to offer a rebuttal of two points.  1) Why should game manufacturers work to make their product less valuable to their customers?  If resale value is part of the value to me, isn't that a good thing?  Typically, high resale value is good.  The argument they make is that it denies them the ability to make first sale money.  Perhaps, but this would be easily mitigated I believe with a graduated pricing scheme.  This is something they have been unwilling to do in any well understood scale.  "DLC " for the first time buyer only is just a backdoor way to try and control the value to me and make it less useful for me in the resale market.  This is a shallow ploy, and one that is annoying at best.

 

2) "the used market needs to change".  Why?  Are video game manufacturers hurting?  Are they not enjoying record profits?  Record sales?  There is no actual problem here.   The only problem is that, while earning millions in profits, they identified an area they think they could earn even more money if they worked against their customers and started treating their customers as competitors.  This is a stupid business decision.  Customers don't like being treated this way.  They should enjoy their success.  Perhaps, rather than some "knee jerk" moronic competition, they should find a way to offer actual value back.  How about this:  For an extra $5, they'll give you a new copy of the manual, a fresh DVD case, and a guaruntee on the disk.  How about they keep releasing DLC that makes their game mroe valuable in the future and I don't WANT to sell it used.  How about they lower the price of the game by $10 every month for the first four months so that after 4-5 months it only costs $10-$20 (obvious exceptions around Christmas).  

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Games might not become worse like cars, but technology gets better. As a result, standards increase. Also, a special gameplay system gets less fresh as time goes by, because other games use it as well or you already heard a lot of it. A game of a year ago is often noticably disadvantaged visually and gameplay-wise compared to a game now with equal scores. Not because the game loses quality like a car, but because the definition of quality becomes stronger.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

If my interpretation is correct, you have touched on a subtley different area.  The discussion is not about buying a used copy of RE4 over a new copy of RE5, but rather a used copy of RE5 over a new copy of the same game.  The used copy has no difference in value (technically) from the new one, and that's where the issue lies.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Not true. Used copies of games are often scratched, missing manuals, have DLC offers used up or expired, etc. A scratched game quite often does not play like a new game.

This is why you pay more for a used game in "mint" condition than one in "used" condition.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

You know, I have never heard anyone complain about free DLC with a new purchase and having it available for a price to used buyers. I have never heard anyone complain about it. I personally think it is a great idea.

However, what  Ihave heard people complain about is the idea (it has never been implemented as far as I know) that used buyers must pay to actually finish the game. Again, this was only mentioned in passing and as far as I know has never been implemented.

Just so I know I am clear, free DLC is fine as long as it is not essential to playing the game.

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Hmm, that is indeed an interesting idea. I might mention that if the opportunity presents itself. The only problem I could see is how to form the DLC...does one take out content thereby weakening the product? Or add more content, thereby increasing strain on an already taxed developer? I dunno, but it is certianly an idea I've never heard before.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Its like getting the bonus tracks with a new purchase of Rock Band.

As for cost, it probably wouldn't be that big of a deal as long as it was budgetted in from the beginning. If it is a last minute decision, then yeah it could strain development a bit.

One thought that just came to mind, often developers have to cut levels before finalizing a game, perhaps offer some of the better levels as bonus DLC along the same lines as deleted scenes in movies.

E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

The problem with it stems from the fact that you need an internet connection. For people that don't have internet connections to their console, this causes big problems in the future implementation of this plan. The idea for developers will obviously be taking out content from a game and offering it back "free" to the purchaser if he has purchased it new. If you are taking out data and putting it back agian with the requirement of internet access, people that don't have internet cannot acess that data even if they have purchased it new. This problem has been avoided by making it so that the content provided is only multiplayer content, but even then that causes problems as I have ran into many games of Gears of War where no one could play the flashback maps because a person was either too lazy to download the maps or just didin't have the codes. It wrecks it for everyone online and those maps might as well not exist.

The best way to do this is to incentivise the consumer purchasing new copys of the game without actually taking out content. There could be a new program either from Sony or Microsoft (nintendo isin't on the banwagon for this one) where every purchase of a new game comes with a code that discounts future DLC content by 25% 50% or even free. This helps sony and microsoft whoever does this because it will make people purchase the PS3 or 360 version over the other because of the value incentives in it. It will benifit the publishers because then people will see extra value in the products, so they will buy it new. And developers are happy because they get their due. .

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Yea, I suppose the biggest problem would be the transitionary wave of games. But still, I like the idea (though it's not gonna help us devs argue with publishers lol).

The latter suggestion would depend on the genre and developer. I know one of the titles we are working on wouldn't work at all for that, while the other might. For FPS, an included map pack I think would be an excellent idea. Too bad I'm just a lowly artist and not an exec.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

At the risk of repeating myself Jaffe and nearly everyone on the publishing side doesn't understand economics. The success of the used game market, the huge spike in unit sales on Steam when they put games on sale and the increase of unit sales between NFL2K4 ($50) and NFL2K5 ($20) all point to demand on games being elastic.

Price games at $20 and the used market won't matter nearly as much. Make sure that games are priced at $60 and watch your most price sensitive consumers, kids, leave gaming in droves. Mostly for good.

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Agreed with you up until the last statement.

$20 games are only a reality for indy titles or portable games.  Big, triple-A titles can't be that price if for no other reason that it requires the company to employee too many people and buy too much equipment.  You have to pay for (and I'm probably leaving some out):

-Dev kits, both for the devs to use and for QA to test on

-Programmers (level designers, graphic artists, and all other forms)

-Artists (for concept art)

-Voice Actors

-Musicians (game needs a rocken' tune after all)

-QA (probably hire more of these guys than anyone else, though they don't get paid much)

-PC parts (if you're going to port it to the PC)

-Producers

-Marketing

And on top of all that the company has to try to make a profit, some of which is then shifted to other aspects of the company to help pay for other projects and/or is used to start working on the sequel.

As for the kids part.  Well sure Timmy can't afford a $60 dollar game, at least not all the time.  His allowance is only 10 bucks a week for cleaning up the yard.  But Timmy's dad can shell out 60 dollars for a game.  And with Timmy's birthday coming up...

You see where this is going.

 

Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

Tea and cake or death! Tea and cake or death! Little Red Cook-book! Little Red Cook-book!

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

See my other comment for the AAA game production costs vs movie production costs.

As for kids, do you know kids? They have terrible impulse control and tend to move on quickly if they can't get what they want. A good portion of kids, say at least a quarter but probably closer to a half, aren't going to say "Oh, gee! I just have to save up for six to eight weeks to get a new game instead renting one or getting one used. This is a good chance for me to learn the value of hard work and delayed gratification!" They're going to say, "Well, what can I get for my twenty bucks?"

Do you think that the market will gain or loose kids if the used and rental market goes away? Do you know what happens when kids give up on something? Do you think they come back as adults? How much of the under-18 market can the gaming industry afford to give up?

(Answer key: Loose. They tend to stay away forever. No. None.)

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant ...

Well i remember saving up money from my paper route which was roughly $5 to $10 a week when i was younger to buy games for the NES and SNES that were $100 or more plus taxes. Don't see much of that anymore do you.

"No law means no law" - Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black on the First Amendment

"No law means no law" - Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black on the First Amendment

Re: God of War's David Jaffe Rants on Used Games & We Rant Back

The simple fact here is that it doesn't quite work that way. Publishers price games based on the fact that for ever Halo or what have you, there are 3 Too Humans. They need a way to recoup lost capitial from hits to minimize loses from misses. Considering the massive price tag of games these days (we currently have an 8 and 23 million in progress) the increase is naturally passed to consumers. Would $20 games be nice? Hell yea. Is it feasible to do so without compromising quality? Not really. And considering consumer expectations for games are higher than ever, quality is not something to skimp on...ever. *Glares at EA*

 

 
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Matthew Wilsonhttp://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/12/republicans-may-have-plan-to-save-internet-providers-from-utility-rules/ this is intreasting. congress may put net nutrality in to law to avoid title 2 classification12/19/2014 - 2:45pm
Matthew Wilsonhttp://www.polygon.com/2014/12/19/7421953/bullshit-cards-against-humanity-donated-250k-sunlight-foundation I have to admit I like the choice o organization. congrats to CAH.12/19/2014 - 1:51pm
E. Zachary KnightIf you are downloading a copy in order to bypass the DRM, then you are legally in the wrong. Ethically, if you bought the game, it doesn't matter where you download it in the future.12/19/2014 - 12:06pm
InfophileEZK: Certainly better that way, though not foolproof. Makes me think though: does it count as piracy if you download a game you already paid for, just not from the place you paid for it at? Ethically, I'd say no, but legally, probably yes.12/19/2014 - 11:20am
ZippyDSMleeAnd I still spent 200$ in the last month on steam/GOG stuff sales get me nearly every time ><12/19/2014 - 10:55am
ZippyDSMleeMaskedPixelante:And this is why I'm a one legged bandit.12/19/2014 - 10:51am
ZippyDSMleeE. Zachary Knight: I buy what I can as long as I can get cracks for it...then again it I could have gotton Lords of the Fallen for 30 with DLC I would have ><12/19/2014 - 10:50am
MaskedPixelantehttp://www.joystiq.com/2014/12/19/marvel-vs-capcom-origins-leaving-online-storefronts-soon/ Speaking of "last chance to buy", Marvel vs. Capcom Origins is getting delisted from all major storefronts. Behold the wonders of the all digital future.12/19/2014 - 9:59am
MaskedPixelanteSeriously, the so-called "Last Chance" sale was up to 80% off, while this one time only return sale goes for a flat 85% off with a 90% off upgrade if you buy the whole catalogue.12/19/2014 - 9:37am
E. Zachary KnightInfophile, Tha is why I buy only DRM-free games.12/19/2014 - 9:37am
MaskedPixelanteNordic is back on GOG for one weekend only. And at 85% off no less, which is kind of a slap in the face to people who paid more during the "NORDIC IS LEAVING FOREVER BUY NOW OR FOREVER HOLD YOUR PEACE" sale, but whatever...12/19/2014 - 9:28am
InfophileRe PHX's link: This is one of the reasons the digital revolution isn't all it's cracked up to be. There's also the flip side where Sony can block access to games you've bought if they ban your account for unrelated reasons. All power is theirs.12/19/2014 - 8:52am
MaskedPixelantehttp://uplay.ubi.com/#!/en-US/events/uplay-15-days You can win FREE GAMES FOR A YEAR! Unfortunately, they're Ubisoft games.12/18/2014 - 6:29pm
Papa MidnightAh, so it was downtime. I've been seeing post appear in my RSS feed, but I was unable to access GamePolitics today across several ISPs.12/18/2014 - 6:06pm
james_fudgeSorry for the downtime today, folks.12/18/2014 - 5:54pm
PHX Corphttp://www.craveonline.com/gaming/articles/801575-sony-refuses-offer-refund-playstation-game-fraudulently-purchased-hacker Sony Refuses to Offer Refund for PlayStation Game Fraudulently Purchased by Hacker12/18/2014 - 1:43pm
NeenekoMakes sense to me, and sounds kinda cool. One cool thing about Minecraft is the meta game, you can implement other game types within its mechanics. There are servers out there with plots, an episodic single player one sound kinda cool12/18/2014 - 11:07am
MaskedPixelantehttps://mojang.com/announcing-minecraft-story-mode/ Umm... what?12/18/2014 - 10:24am
NeenekoThat would make sense. Theaters probably can not afford the liability worry or a drop in ticket sales from worried people. Sony on the other hand can take a massive writeoff, and might even be able to bypass distribution contracts for greater profit.12/18/2014 - 10:03am
ConsterNeeneko: I thought they cancelled it because the major cinema franchises were too scared of terrorist attacks to show the film?12/18/2014 - 9:55am
 

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