Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's Rampage?

April 7, 2009 -

Conservative T.V. talking head Glenn Beck has entertained the notion that video game violence leads to the real thing, but in the aftermath of Sunday's triple cop slaying in Pittsburgh, some critics are drawing a connection between Beck's on-air political rants and accused killer Richard Poplawski's horrific rampage.

The Daily Beast reports that the 22-year old Poplawski is a white supremacist and conspiracy theorist who harbored fears that President Obama will seek to establish some type of "new world order" and remove guns from private citizens.

Poplawski is also a Beck fan:

The alleged killer posted a YouTube clip to [white supremacist site] Stormfront of top-rated Fox News host Glenn Beck contemplating the existence of FEMA-managed concentration camps... Three weeks later, Poplawski posted another Youtube clip to Stormfront, this time of a video blogger advocating “Tea Parties,” or grassroots conservative protests organized by Beck and Fox News contributor Newt Gingrich against President Barack Obama’s bailout plan...

David Neiwert, a veteran reporter on right-wing militia movements... explained that by co-opting conspiratorial rhetoric from the farthest shores of the right, mainstream conservative talkers can inflame the passions of paranoiacs like Poplawski to a dangerous degree...

 

"What it does is unhinge fringe players from reality and dislodges them even further. When someone like Poplawski hears Glenn Beck touting One World Government and they’re gonna take your gun theories, they believe then that it must be true. And that’s when they really become crazy.”


Comments

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

One way or the other, Limbaugh, Gingrich, Beck and his cohorts are inciting violence from both sides of the fence. Way to go Right-Wing media, way to go.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's Rampage?

If you are eager to blame video games for the violence that a few do, you must also be willing to take the blame for the violence done by fools that listen to you.

 

 

PMBD http://paysites.mustbedestroyed.org/

The truth about T$R http://tsr.mustbedestroyed.org/   

EA + T$R = We're all screwed

PMBD http://paysites.mustbedestroyed.org/ The truth about T$R http://tsr.mustbedestroyed.org/ EA + T$R = We're all screwed

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's Rampage?

GP, I was pissed off about Becks GTA video too, but I doubt that Glenn Beck influenced this crazy bastard to kill the cops.

First, he said that the FEMA Camps were fake this week, and the Tea Parties are not organized by Beck, he is just helping to promote them.

And like I said, I doubt that Glenn Beck influenced this guy. He was crazy before he listened to Beck. He was already a white supremacist and a conspiracy theorist, and I bet that he has been for a long time, so don't try to find someone else to blame for what this guy did because it was his fault. Something has been wrong with him for a long time, and that is why he did it IMO.

Libertarian Republican from Mesa Arizona MySpace http://profile.myspace.com/32118614 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1441642492&ref=name

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Glenn Beck.

 

You are full of shit. And you know it.

 

Either way parents should be informed.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Violence against people you don't know or like is only okay when conservative commentators inspire you to do it.

 

Like when Adkisson killed those people at that church in Knoxville.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Knoxville_Unitarian_Universalist_church_shooting#Motivations

 

Some people call that a good book list so I won't knock anyone for reading. But if anyone is gonna take the blame, it's Adkisson, not Bill o Riley.

 

 

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

I had no idea who this guy was, fortunately tonights episode of Charlie Brookers 'Newswipe' covered him and now I just can't believe this guy is on TV and being taken seriously.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's Rampage?

Well although I do think it is cool that Glenn is being blammed for real world violence just like he tries to blame violent video games for real world violence we all have to remember one thing. Glenn was not responsible for the killers actions. If we blame him then we're just like him. He was no more responsible for the killings then Grand Theft Auto IV or Saint's Row was. The games didn't cause the violence and neither did Glenn.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's Rampage?

"People were not able to kill eachother in world war 1???"

Then why was there so many people killed in world war 1 in the first place?

That is what I first felt like asking myself, is this guy nuts????

"It's not just videogames, it is TV, radio and the entire pop culture...back in the 1950's, the rate of homoside jumped by 50 percent."

And he blames TV on all this????

Strange, because watching him on TV and the bad things on the news each night is enough to make everyone depressed about the world. I guess this is what Right Wing media people try to do, they want to establish an image in people's minds that the world is currupt. And the Left wing is almost just as bad with political correctness.

 

Also when he was talking about GTA IV I noticed.

 

"Neko is a Eastern European thug..."

 

No Beck, he was a former Russian Police officer...NOT a thug...

Parents listen up...This guy on TV is trying to brainwash you!!!! Making you hate a M rated videogame making you believe that it is being sold to kids even though it clearly has the M17+ rating on the FRONT COVER!!!!

Sad thing is, when parents don't even listen to their kids, this guy is able to take advantage to give parents something to worry about...

 

TBoneTony

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's Rampage?

I just got the courage to watch his video just now that is shown on this page...

 

and all I have got to say is...WTF?????

The Government training their US marines to shoot at paper targets to increase their edge to kill and then they created the "Grandfather" of videogames...

WHAT!!!!

Right before PONG????

Gee, Glenn Beck is just talking out of his ass...where is his information?

 

Where is his proof???

Well he is a journalist/reporter on TV and radio so he can make up stuff just to make things newsworthy.

Oh wait, he is a FoxNews Reporter now, I guess CNN decided to fire him since he hardley ever uses the facts right so Fox got him instead.

 

Gee...those guys just keep sinking lower and lower with their lies and slander...

 

 

TBoneTony

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Whats funny and I haven't seen it mentioned but back when I was in the army, at some of the forts/camps I was stationed at, we had a SNES and a really small tv hooked up to a M-16 that we would fire at the screen to improve our aim.  Supposly at some of the more bigger forts, they have huge sims to train on, but that little SNES brings back memories lol.  It was kinda like duck hunt from the NES, but you were shooting at stationary targets.  However, I guess JT and them would say that this SNES game was training us to be the next murder snipers.  OWell

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

 i know this is kinda off topic but if you watch the video he says you can cut people in half with chainsaws in gta 4. last time i checked you cant. Hes probably never even played the game .

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Cut people in half with a chainsaw????

In GTA IV????

Like WTF have those people been playing???

 

Resident Evil 4 that has the bad guy wanting to chop you in half.

And in Madworld, well that was a year after GTA IV.

Sometimes I don't think this guy could ever be taken seriously anymore as much as he is almost half just about a bad at lying as JT is.

 

Why do people ever watch his program unless if he is a comedian, I don't know.

Perhaps I have never lived in America to realize why people like this guy.

TBoneTony

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

It's hilarious people stick Glenn Beck as THE 'conservative christian talk show host', when he's a mormon ( read up on mormonism. )

For anyone saying that Glenn Beck has *ANY* responsibility in this...

I won't dig up the images, but pretend I posted a picture of a GTA hooker kill right *HERE*, and a manhunt 2 kill *HERE*

Do the above two mental images make you want to kill hookers or execute people? Are you going to do this? Does Bully : Scholarship edition make you give kids swirlies?

Now put a big ol' mugshot of Glenn Beck right *HERE*.

Does watching an old white guy jabber about how we're leaning towards a single world government and increased gun control make you want to kill cops?

Now let's up the ante! The GTA cops just plastered your brains out in GTA IV, ending an 8 hour all day game that you'd not saved in 3 hours. Now do you want to kill cops?

----------------------

The point can be one of two things! If you enforce a double standard. It's Glenn Beck's fault when some white supremist (which glenn beck is not) kills cops (which glenn beck does not support - he believes in the sanctity of life ) and when a gamer goes on a rampage, it's not your media's fault!

You can be just like Jack Thompson. Your political changes will be as fruitful - causing what you DON'T (or profess to not) want to happen to happen.

The other point can be that nutjobs will take any damn excuse they can to wreak havoc and death. It's our job to make sure we don't blatantly encourage these idiots, but if some media somehow sets off their magical code that turns them into kill mode, it isn't that media's fault.

I'm certain that there's someone, somewhere, in some part of the world that watched the badger badger badger loop one too many times and bit the head off a live chicken. Perhaps the kitty cat dance caused someone to gouge his eyes out after watching it one too many times. Do badgers incite violence? No. Snakes? No. Mushrooms? Well, it depends on what kind. 

 

I will not buy securom games. http://www.wolvenmoon.com/sharedfiles/message1.jpg and http://www.wolvenmoon.com/sharedfiles/message2.jpg

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

"Does watching an old white guy jabber about how we're leaning towards a single world government and increased gun control make you want to kill cops?"

Holy shit, dude.  For a non-trivial number of the people who listen to Glenn Beck...yes, yes it does.

You cannot compare Beck to video games because rational human beings can tell that a game is a game.  The same cannot be said for the political talking heads: they purport to be purveyors of fact.

The only "conservative pundit" who has any sort of license to deliver inflammatory, inciteful rhetoric is Stephen Colbert...because everyone knows he's not serious.  Beck and his ilk have no such excuse; they claim to be real, honest, and fairminded "experts" on the subjects they talk about.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

If I went on listing 'liberals' who advocated violent methods to prove their points, I'd be here all night. If I listed 'conservatives' that did the same thing, guess what! Probably the same amount of time here.

People here are acting like Glenn Beck has some sort of magical charisma about him.

Ya know what? Why the hell am I even arguing this?

This guy was a [B]white supremist[/B] (warning bell 1) [B]gun collecting[/B] (bell 2) [B]conspiracy theorist[/B] (ding ding ding).

Trying to blame Glenn Beck for this is about as smart as trying to blame lucky the leprechaun and the cereal box for arson. 'The leprachaun told me to burn things.'

 

I will not buy securom games. http://www.wolvenmoon.com/sharedfiles/message1.jpg and http://www.wolvenmoon.com/sharedfiles/message2.jpg

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

"People here are acting like Glenn Beck has some sort of magical charisma about him."

What world are you living in?  Yes, celebrities and television personalities are significantly capable of moving people to action in ways that "normal" people can't inspire.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

What happens when "nutjobs" get into offices of media or government though?  There probably is enough historical evidence that a person can manipulate someone else to violence.  There just ins't enough evidence yet to show that games cause someone to commit acts of violence.  Maybe one day there will be, but who knows.  I do find it interesting that in most of these lateest strings of gun violence around the country, I don't think I have seen an article saying "shooter was a gamer of xxxx" yet.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

URL is a wikipedia link, unfortunately I cannot rename the link for dramatic effect, however, video games are a medium for this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subliminal_message

One type of message (Glenn Beck and other up front talk show hosts) can be actively ignored easily. The other type can be embedded and hard to find.

Video games are not immune to political messages - as this site often points out - and the messages they carry are often stronger, less obvious, and more intense than ones made by a talk show host.

Case in point : A long talk show is an hour long. A short video game is ten hours long.

 

Also, I would like to point out the democrat majority in our congress has extended back into Clinton's first term. Edit : As I can't find a timeline that shows both parts, I'll qualify this with "At least one part of our congress has had a democrat majority...."

I will not buy securom games. http://www.wolvenmoon.com/sharedfiles/message1.jpg and http://www.wolvenmoon.com/sharedfiles/message2.jpg

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Man I can't believe I'm saying this but here it goes.

I don't believe the blame should lay squarely on Beck "gags" But he is partialy responsible for it and his hands have some blood on his hands. I believe in freedom of speech as much as the next guy but with that freedom comes a responsibility as well. These people constantly abuse this freedom and these comments of "taking arms" and "revolt against the nation" are purely irresponsible and reprehensible. Granted most of us are smart people and simply laugh at the idiotic rethorics they dare to say but remember that there are some serious whack jobs out there. There are full anti-goverment militias around the nation simply ready to find an excuse to act. And unfortunately entities like the NRA defend these idiots instead of resposible gun owners like myself. Hopefully tgese tragic events should keep them from spewing more garbage. And no nobody here should compare the video game industry with the idiotic programs from Hannity, Limbaugh, O'Reilly and Beck.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Politically-motivated murderous rampages since last July:

Republicans: 2

Democrats: 0

Read the last shooter's manifesto if you really want to see how much paranoia, hatred and fear modern Republican pundits inspire.

Or, in their own words:

"I’ll tell you who should be tortured and killed at Guantanamo — every filthy Democrat in the U.S. Congress." — Sean Hannity

"To fight only the al-Qaeda scum is to miss the terrorist network operating within our own borders... Who are these traitors? Every rotten radical left-winger in this country, that's who." — Michael Savage

"Liberalism is the greatest threat this country faces." — Rush Limbaugh

"It is not a stretch to say that MoveOn is the new Klan." — Bill O’Reilly

"I'm thinking about killing Michael Moore, and I'm wondering if I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it. No, I think I could." — Glenn Beck

"We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too." — Ann Coulter

"I don’t see any difference between [Arianna] Huffington and the Nazis." — Bill O’Reilly

"The Islamofascists are actually campaigning for the election of Democrats. Islamofascists from Ahmadinejad to al-Zawahiri, Oba -- Osama bin Laden, whoever, are constantly issuing Democrat talking points." — Rush Limbaugh

The difference between these guys and the shock-jocks in Rwanda who encouraged people to hack their neighbors to death with machetes is just a matter of shrinking degrees.

Grombar SMASH!

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

That has got to be the most condemning comment about Conservative Punditry I've seen yet. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who is too stupid to realize these guys are just spouting thier mouths off. It would scare you. In fact, it is quite possible to scare you so much that you decide to do something about it.

I remember speaking with a couple conservative friends in school, once, and they made the comment that given how scared and riled these Conservative Leaders are making the common, ignorant American, it wouldn't be surprising if there were multiple attempts on Obama's life, even before he was actually elected.

It's thinking like this that is going to drive this country to hell. I mean, jesus, I hated Bush with a vengeance, but I would never wish his death, or the death of any other Republican in office. If, rather than trying to incite an armed revolution, these people offered insightful, bi-partisan solutions to the things that they think aren't being handled the best, I'd imagine things would be quite a bit better.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Am I the only one who noticed that Billo invoked Godwin's Law?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------



"A Chrono Trigger is anything that unleashes its will or desire to change history!" -Gaspar

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Nope. I think in this thread, we all saw that coming.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

With people likme this in the US, the terrorists may as well have won already, as it's people like them that make others hate the US.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Wow... and I could say it again wow...

Seems like Videogames are not the problem at all.

It is those who try to blame Videogames and other things for society's ills that are the real problem when some of those people have really strong yet negative opinions about people who don't really follow their own beliefs.

We may have all heard about the radical muslims after the events of 9/11. But just listening to some of these people here...like I said again...wow...

 

Perhaps it is America that needs to solve their own problems instead of forcing other countries to change...

TBoneTony

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

And exactly what does this have to do with video games?

 

 

Seriously, is this the Daily Kos or something, I thought this was GamePolitics.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Well last year when the GTA IV media bash was going on, Glenn Beck was one of the news reporters who laughted and said that "Videogame Bloggers are loosers." and he continued to say those same words on his radio show and said some rather amusing yet insulting things about nerds and geeks...

So yeah, even though it has nothing to do with Videogames, it is ironic yet also horrible to see that someone has went on a murder and said in a letter that is was because of what Beck said on his TV show.

 

 

TBoneTony

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Would have been hilarious if his show could no longer air because someone he defined as a loser nerd stopped working for his show.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's Rampage?

this is gonna be fun the next time we run into Jack. Violent video games don't kill people, Conservatives do.

---You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.

---You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

As much as I despise many of these political talk show hosts, especially conservatives I do not think it is right to blame Beck for being an influence. Its obvious that political talk for BOTH parties twist and turn everything into their personal image of the world and unfortunately people don't realize this and take every word at face value. Despite what side of the political fence you are on you gotta take what they say with a grain of salt. Unfortunately I do think the average human being is a moron and all you gotta do is tell them what they want to hear or don't want to hear and you get cases like this. But just like games don't kill people and guns don't kill people words don't kill people this guy got all worked up and oulled off his act. And this guy wondered why there are talks about gun bans ? But to blame Beck or anyone else is just adding to the list of scapegoats. People just need to stop being goddamn sheep and turn their brains in the on position and think "does that make sense?" instead of blindly following whatever someone says to him/her.

 

In Scapegoats We Trust

"With free speech either all of it is ok or none of it is." Kyle Broflovski

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Perhaps the best comment said.

I personally don't like people using scapegoats for their/others violent or criminal actions.

But I can still silently think of the funny side that here we have Glenn Beck, someone who has been on JT's side and been blaming GTA for currupting America's youth and when someone does violence in the name of what he said on TV, well...it does make Beck look like a Hyporcrit if he tries to say that what he says on TV is not meant to be taken seriously.

 

TBoneTony

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

I blame Fox News for making the ignorant type of Americans.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Sad thing is, almost every News Broadcast in the world has almost done the same thing.

By trusting what is said on the news, people have lead themselves to belive that what is on the news must to a reflection of the world.

And what they see is a really violent and depressing world.

I don't think that the world is bad, because of all that does happen in this world, we have one of the only planets in the galaxy that has any life.

And I think that makes the Earth Special no matter what happens on the news.

Besides the news is sometimes one sided, and you have to look at the other side of the world to truly have a greater appreciation of what the Earth is all about.

 

TBoneTony

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

"we have one of the only planets in the galaxy that has any life." should be corrected to "we have one of the only planets in the galaxy of a very large universe, that at our current scientific and technological ability and understanding, we believe we are the only planet to contain said life." 

After all, the universe is a HUGE place.  2000 or whatever years ago, if I went down the street of Rome and tried to explain to a scholar about dna, how the earth revolves around the sun or some other advance knowledge from our time, I would either be laughed at or more likely (when the Christians were in power) accused of witchcraft and burned at the stake(course..if we were to go back in time 2000 years ago, with our advance knowledge in medicine and technology...we would probably be considered gods/miracle workers).

We know there are planets revolving around stars not in this solar system.  Maybe in 100, 500, even a 1000 years from now we might have proof/evidence that there is life out there.  Maybe our technology will get to the point where we can leave this solar system and we can explore and find out if we really are alone or just maybe there is other humans or non human sentience out there.  Once upon a time, it was considered impossible to be able to fly, and look at us now, able in airplanes to cross vast distances by flight.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Just the Christians? Because Romans weren't known for superstition and cruel methods of excecution?

If you go crazy then I will still call you Superman.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Most dominant cultures were viciously cruel and superstitious. I could go on for hours about what has happened in Asia and South America for the past 3000 years....and they weren't Christian :D

I'll say this: Humans are superstitious and cruel to each other through out the centuries.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Yeah I know but I was being lazy and didnt feel like listening every group that has pretty much killed someone for something they disagree with(which lets face it, that would pretty much be every religious and non-religious group for the most part..especialy in the past where killing people(and not trying to be killed) tended to be the national past time).

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's Rampage?

While my cynical side is glad to see Beck take some blame for this that doesn't mean he should be blamed for the shooting. Poplawski obviously had some mental problems and while Beck's comments may have been what finally set Poplawski off if it hadn't been Beck it would have just been someone else. While Beck and all other pundits should say that what they say is nothing more than their opinions they can't really be faulted if some crazy person somewhere decides to take those opinions as fact and then act on them.

 

 

Life doesn't always make sense. If it did it would be boring.

Life doesn't always make sense. If it did it would be boring.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

Sad thing is, aside from hating on games, I  kind of like Glenn Beck. He's at least got a sense of humor, unlike Sean Hannity.

 

If you go crazy then I will still call you Superman.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

I find the sentiment some are expressing here that gamers should be more sympathetic or less "hypocritical" to be disturbing.  There is a huge problem with this notion, and it's the crux upon which the gamer's defense is built, when we're the ones being accused of inciting violent/negative behavior.

Glenn Beck purports, implicitly if not explicitly, to be a purveyor of facts.  There is a reasonable expectation on his part that, being on television and speaking to the masses, a very non-trivial number of people are going to take his words at face value.  He's not a character in a video game, he's not an actor playing a role in a television show or a movie, he's not claiming to be a narrator reading someone's work of fiction.  He, and the other talking heads like him, are stating opinions as facts, and they know that that's how they'll be received by the masses.

So for him, or Nancy Grace, or Ann Coulter, or Keith Olbermann, or any of that crowd to be making the unsubstantiated, and often downright false statements that they make for no other purpose than inciting the public, furthering the public image most conducive to their own agendas, or simply for sensationalist ratings, is utterly irresponsible.  They are not games; they are real.  That means there's a real responsibility behind what they tell the world.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

The gamer's defense has not (or at least should not) be about debasing games to the point of some interesting frivolity.  On the contrary, games as a medium and art are becoming serious forms of expression.  It is then not so much about games but the interpretation of speech and it is here where gamers largely fall into the self-responsibility camp.  It is not unreasonable to have expectations of self-responsibility either for gamers or pundit watcher.  Mr. Beck’s role is then immaterial in regards to this shooting in light of this model. 

 

As I wrote earlier this is an opportunity for the community to stand on the previously enumerated principals implicit to gamers, a chance to show that this issue is important beyond the scope of mere partisan bickering.  Of course the alternative is the Thompsonian route, ostensibly we would just be making Mr. Beck our Take2 and lose much while gaining little to nothing.      

 

 

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

"The gamer's defense has not (or at least should not) be about debasing games to the point of some interesting frivolity.  On the contrary, games as a medium and art are becoming serious forms of expression."

That has exactly -nothing- to do with the topic at hand.  This is not about "games as art"; it's about the fact that a rational human being understands that, like movies, books, television, etc., games are not real.  A rational human being understands that the rules that govern a game world are not the same as those that govern the real world.

"Mr. Beck’s role is then immaterial in regards to this shooting in light of this model."

Complete logical disconnect.  When Beck delivers statements as facts, with the reasonable expectation that a non-trivial portion of his audience will accept them as facts, he has a responsibility above and beyond that of said audience.

If there were a reasonable expectation that gamers would take the content of the games they play at face value (i.e. "I can shoot someone in the face and they'll just respawn"), then we would have a responsibility as game developers to monitor the messages we put forth in our games.  But no rational human being thinks that way.  There are plenty of (relatively) rational human beings who do believe everything they're told by the political talking heads spewing their fire and brimstone proclamations.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

My Friend you misunderstand me. Of course this is not about games as art; it is about games as speech. It would appear that you are content to devalue a medium as “not real” however a fictional environment and a “real” message are not mutually exclusive, just talk to Ray Bradbury to George Orwell. In the videogame context one could easily make the argument that games like Army of 2 even have a political message.

While your appeal to rationality is a wise maneuver it comes across as you saying the shooter was rational. Of course our respective arguments are abundantly easier to make when dealing with rational people. Still it can easily be said that someone who would listen to one side and believes all he or she hears as the absolute truth is not rational. Of course “rational” is a very easy word for us to throw around.

Re: Did Glenn Beck's On-air Rhetoric Fuel Cop Killer's ...

I don't know how else to say this, as I don't believe I'm misunderstanding you; I simply disagree.  I don't see acknowledging games for what they are to be devaluing.  I'm putting them on the same level as movies, books, music, television, and anything form of art.

None of which is comparable to a real person making inciteful statments and claiming them to be fact.

Again, Bradbury and Orwell are irrelevant to this comparison.  I don't dispute that there are messages in their works, but they're allegories, not literal interpretations.  Animal Farm is not actually a story about animals, and no one would blame the author for a reader going on a crusade to slaughter all pigs to prevent their inevitable overthrow of human society, because drawing such a conclusion from the content of that book is patently ridiculous and irrational beyond societal standards.

It is not necessarily irrational, beyond societal standards, for someone like the shooter in this story to believe everything he heard from Beck & co.

What if he hadn't managed to kill any of the officers?  What if he'd simply injured some, or even missed entirely but opened fire on them?  It changes nothing about the fact that he acted upon the information he received from certain sources, like Beck, because they were presented as facts.

-

"None of which is comparable to a real person making inciteful statements and claiming them to be fact."

On this we do not see eye to eye, one hundred years from now people will still be reading the likes of 1984 and Uncle Tom's Cabin or even The Jungle.  Do not be so arrogant as to assume that venues of message communication are irrelevant to this conversation as any one of those authors would tell you they damn well had a point to their respective works.     

"because drawing such a conclusion from the content of that book is patently ridiculous and irrational beyond societal standards."

Wait for it...

"It is not necessarily irrational, beyond societal standards, for someone like the shooter in this story to believe everything he heard from Beck & co"

Using your own tandem points here you fail to establish how it is rational for the shooter to become a shooter, and of course you do as real rational people know that it is a self-responsibility issue.  There is no implication that a follower of Beck is predestined to be a shooter (re: Not all Gamers become sociopaths or what have you) and until you can make this link it is a losing argument. 

Videogames do not create killers and neither does Beck, the sooner the community realizes this the better it will be in the future when issues like this undoubtedly raise again.  

Re: -

"On this we do not see eye to eye, one hundred years from now people will still be reading the likes of 1984 and Uncle Tom's Cabin or even The Jungle.  Do not be so arrogant as to assume that venues of message communication are irrelevant to this conversation as any one of those authors would tell you they damn well had a point to their respective works."

Again, this is a straw man argument.  I am not being arrogant, nor am I assuming that those authors had no point to their respective works.  This is a straw man at its finest.

"There is no implication that a follower of Beck is predestined to be a shooter (re: Not all Gamers become sociopaths or what have you) and until you can make this link it is a losing argument."

"Predestined" to be a shooter?  No.  But that's not the argument.  The question is, of the stimuli, internal and external, that led this man to become a shooter, how significant was Beck?  Further, should he have been able to foresee that he would, or even could, have such a significant effect?

As an individual claiming to be relating facts, and choosing to do so in such an incendiary manner, the answers are "non-trivially significant" and "yes, he should".  The words of a television personality in a(n allegedly) non-fiction medium carry a weight of truth and appeal that can move a rational person to action, sometimes detructive and/or illegal action.  There are plenty of examples throughout history, and in many cases, the inciters have been held responsible.

Video games do not share this distinction.  No game is ever going to move a rational person to irrational action.  Real humans in positions of power are able to do this; the precedent has been there for ages.

Re: -

My friend this is not a straw man argument that I am making.  Remember the whole context of this conversation is: Is it fair to blame this shooting on Beck much in the same way videogames are blamed for shootings?  With that established we have to look at the message that is being sent through any medium that could potentially fall under this umbrella.  That would include TV, Books, Videogames, Talk show hosts or any other message sender.  The works I cited earlier are all appeals to some kind of political or social situation, The Jungle for instance moved people to reconsider health standards and maybe Army of 2 did raise questions about the likes of Black Water. 

 

Enter now Glenn Beck who is arguing for his point of view (this idea that presenting it as fact is wholly significant is a red herring in this case as all debaters and punditry presents their ideas as facts or at least the superior understanding of available facts) and does so well within the boundaries of his first amendment right.  For the facts available now it did not seem that the shooter was rational pre-Beck (please clarify your point of view on this) and therefore there should be no expectation of rationality form the man regardless of what he deiced to watch or listen too.  Beck was not issuing orders for people to start shooting cops, that is all on the shooter.  This is very similar to the shootings surrounding “The Catcher in the Rye” and no rational person is calling for J.D. Salinger to take responsibility, nor was Stephen King held responsible for the subsequent school shooting after “Rage” was published. 

 

“No game is ever going to move a rational person to irrational action.”       

 

We can only hope that this stays the case.  JT would take issue here and we would laugh him out of the room.  Again please clarify your position on the shooter’s rationality, as it seems to be your biggest appeal. 

 

And I will leave you with this.  The entire community looks towards self-responsibility and determination.  We like to hold parents responsible and we like for people to own up to their individual actions.  We are not interested in excuses.  People have free will, it is on them to use it responsibly and no one else.  To blame Beck for this shooting just to score some cheap shots is no different than any attack videogames receive.      

Re: -

"Enter now Glenn Beck who is arguing for his point of view (this idea that presenting it as fact is wholly significant is a red herring in this case as all debaters and punditry presents their ideas as facts or at least the superior understanding of available facts)"

I simply can't think of any way to say this less bluntly than "You are completely, 100% wrong".  The statement I quoted above is categorically false; the fact that he (or ANY!) pundit presents their ideas as facts is not only not a red herring, it's the very heart of the matter!  It is because they present their opinions as facts, coupled with their status as media icons, that they are taken at their word, and can reasonably expect to be taken at their word.  And it is because of that fact that they should be held responsible, to some degree, for the actions they incite (and I use that word very deliberately).

I am not saying that the shooter was a perfectly normal, well-adjusted person.  What I am saying is that I absolutely do believe that events would not have transpired as they did if not for his incendiary rhetoric.  Might this man have snapped at some later date, under different circumstances?  Possibly.  Possibly not.  But the crap that Beck spews, over time, absolutely has a cumulative effect on those who listen and are predisposed to accept it, if it is offered (and I am NOT saying that the only ones affected are inherently irrational; just predisposed to accept incendiary right-wing rhetoric).

Again, I am not saying that the bulk of the responsibility doesn't belong with the shooter.  But to ignore the outside forces that contribute to these tragedies does a disservice to all those involved, and does nothing to protect anyone from future such occurrences.  Whose fault was Columbine?  Ultimately, the shooters, absolutely.  But did the numerous kids who picked on them over a span of years contribute to what happened?  Abso-friggin-lutely, and to pretend that the long and short of it was "they were fucked up in the head, nothing we could have done about it, no attention should be paid to bullying in our schools" is shameful.  Similarly, to suggest that the rhetoric of any extremist pundit doesn't contribute to the people who do snap, is disingenuous, and does a disservice to everyone involved.

Re: -

To begin, I am not 100% wrong, far from it, maybe 15% but I digress.  You are forgetting the context in which this story was posted on this website to begin with and that is: is it fair to level the same charges made against videogames against Beck?  The story is to enforce the absurdity of Beck’s earlier claims by putting the shoe on the other foot.  The heart of the matter is message delivery.  Beck’s message has nothing to do with shooting cops, just like GTA’s message (at least San Andreas) was a social commentary to some extent, not a do it yourself cop killing simulator.  For someone to believe Beck to the letter does not have enough weight to justify a shooting, there is a disconnect here that you or anyone else arguing against Mr. Beck has yet to bridge.  It is not enough to throw around words and italicize them.  When it gets down to the brass tacks of it Mr. Beck did not call for shootings.  It is so simple, for all this talk of rationality do not rational people have a right to expect that others will prefer order to chaos? 

 

Mr. Beck cannot be condemned for these individual actions anymore than a videogame, because rational people should be expected to prefer order to chaos, which is to say value societal norms.  This shooter perverted messages he received to an agenda he already had, not one Beck gave him. It will always be interesting to study why people like this shooter make these decisions, but in the end they are wholly their own, not a videogame, and not Beck’s.      

 

What I am saying is that I absolutely do believe that events would not have transpired as they did if not for his incendiary rhetoric.  Might this man have snapped at some later date, under different circumstances?  Possibly.  Possibly not.  But the crap that Beck spews, over time, absolutely has a cumulative effect on those who listen and are predisposed to accept it, if it is offered (and I am NOT saying that the only ones affected are inherently irrational; just predisposed to accept incendiary right-wing rhetoric).

 

I take pause at the bolded statement and inquire: What is this based off of, faith?  When you concede but a sentence later the man’s capability to snap.  Also you speak of a predisposition to accept messages and a cumulative effect (defined as what, the shooting?)  This passage here leads me to believe that you may not be as comfortable with your position as other posts lead me to believe.  It is fine to hate Beck, conservative, or anyone but not blame them for shootings.  After all this kind of rhetoric of blaming one for another’s actions serves to do nothing but hurt the cause of gaming acceptance.             

 

NB: awesome debate             

Re: -

"After all this kind of rhetoric of blaming one for another’s actions serves to do nothing but hurt the cause of gaming acceptance."

Answering this one separately.  I take huge acceptance to this statement, and here's why.  This is not a compromise.  This is not "well, we're at an impasse, and the mature thing is to meet half way."

Not only is Beck wrong when he blames video games, but there are fundamental reasons why he shouldn't even be able to make the comparison!  I will be DAMNED if I'm going to fight tooth and nail to help make the world understand that games do not cause RATIONAL PEOPLE to act violently, and then have some asshat like Beck USE that accomplishment to get himself off the hook when HE CAN CAUSE RATIONAL PEOPLE TO ACT VIOLENTLY!

This whole issue is not a double standard, it's a double whammy.  Games are fake; he is real.  He CAN influence rational people; games cannot. For him to be able to take games down with him, or cling to them as a life raft...both situations are WRONG.  I personally won't stand for either.  Reversing the argument isn't being hypocritical, it's pointing out 1) the inaccuracy of the comparison between Beck and games, and 2) that he's full of shit and ought to take responsibility for his words, and the impact they can have on the public.

 
Forgot your password?
Username :
Password :

Shout box

You're not permitted to post shouts.
Papa MidnightStraw Man to the fullest, but it gets the point across.10/20/2014 - 8:26pm
Papa Midnighthttp://i.imgur.com/dw0YPon.png10/20/2014 - 8:25pm
quiknkoldby doing something, Charitable Donations is an example.10/20/2014 - 8:06pm
quiknkoldAndrew : I dont accept any worded apology unless I can look the person in the eye when they say it. For me, he'd either have to make a video so I could read his bodylanguage, or actually do something. actions speak louder than words.10/20/2014 - 8:04pm
quiknkoldwell if they are looking for social pollution, Twitter is a great breeding ground for it. Its a breeding ground for deviance.10/20/2014 - 8:03pm
Andrew Eisenquiknkold - He had three tweets worth of apology the following day.10/20/2014 - 8:00pm
quiknkoldyou know, people keep saying Biddle's comment was sarcasm, but the thing is, Sarcasm doesnt translate well in Tweets. I took his words as really hateful, and unless I see an honest apology, I'm not going to be happy with him.10/20/2014 - 7:38pm
Matthew WilsonI doubt it will change much.10/20/2014 - 7:21pm
MaskedPixelantehttp://www.bbc.com/news/technology-29689949 Google's current piracy fighting plan.10/20/2014 - 6:58pm
Andrew EisenYikes. http://boingboing.net/2014/10/20/vultures-circle-gamergate.html10/20/2014 - 6:25pm
Neo_DrKefkaDestructoid Editor in Chief stepping down after allegations surface about blacklisting will he be next? http://allmannerofnerdery.tumblr.com/post/100526443850/im-leaving-destructoid10/20/2014 - 6:05pm
james_fudgethere's some inside baseball stuff going on in this Andrew - likely some stuff we don't know10/20/2014 - 3:30pm
E. Zachary KnightGreat musical video about online trolling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nS-QeM2ne810/20/2014 - 2:46pm
Andrew EisenBut again, this whole thing is just too damn vague to form an opinion on.10/20/2014 - 2:40pm
Andrew EisenWithout the original communication, it's impossible to say if it could honestly be misconstrued as a friendly suggestion rather than an employer directive. However, it appears that subsequent emails should have cleared up any doubt.10/20/2014 - 2:40pm
Andrew EisenThose aren't the owner's words, they're Chris Dahlen's. For what it's worth, we do see an email from Gonzalez stating "you've already broken the only rule we set for you!!!!!!!"10/20/2014 - 2:38pm
Michael ChandraSo really the guy's own words strike me as "wah! How dare you disagree with me!" behaviour, which is the sort of childish attitude I am unfortunately not surprised by.10/20/2014 - 2:17pm
Michael ChandraCorrect AE, but then again the owner's own words are about "wishes", not about an order. No "we told him not to", but going against his wishes.10/20/2014 - 2:16pm
Matthew Wilsonyup. sadly that has been true for awhile.10/20/2014 - 2:10pm
james_fudgewelcome to 2014 politics. Increasingly fought online10/20/2014 - 1:54pm
 

Be Heard - Contact Your Politician