Report: GameStop Loans Games to Employees, Sells Them as New
Report: GameStop Loans Games to Employees, Sells Them as New
April 10, 2009
Kotaku reports that a GameStop corporate policy of selling games played by store employees as brand-new may be a violation of federal law:
GameStop's "check-out" policy, confirmed to Kotaku by a number of the chain's managers and employees, could fall under scrutiny of the Federal Trade Commission.
Kotaku cites GameStop's policy, which it reports that it obtained from several employees of the leading video game retailer:
Associates are allowed to check out one item of store merchandise for personal use for up to four days. Merchandise checkout is a privilege, not a right, and may be revoked at any time...
If the product is returned in unsellable condition, or if anything is missing from the package, or if the product is not returned, the Associate must purchase the product...
When asked by Kotaku, the Federal Trade Commission declined to say whether GameStop's practice of selling employee-played games as new might be considered deceptive. The FTC also declined to say whether it was looking into the practice.
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Posted 11/22/09 at 11:48pm
ZippyDSMlee: AE:they feeding you well? I am enjoying win7 and heading to bed...uhg I need to get up early and start back to cleaning/painting blahg >< need tog et stuff done befor thanksgiving....
ZippyDSMlee: AE:they feeding you well? I am enjoying win7 and heading to bed...uhg I need to get up early and start back to cleaning/painting blahg >< need tog et stuff done befor thanksgiving....
Posted 11/22/09 at 11:41pm
Andrew Eisen: Just got home from an eight hour recording session at Capitol Records. A lot of fun but damn exhausting.
Andrew Eisen: Just got home from an eight hour recording session at Capitol Records. A lot of fun but damn exhausting.
Posted 11/22/09 at 08:44pm
BearDogg-X: 10 N. O. Who Dat?
BearDogg-X: 10 N. O. Who Dat?
Posted 11/22/09 at 09:45am
ZippyDSMlee: JD:I think doc phill is still sout about the break up with his wife he dose not fill holes as much as make them bigger these day
ZippyDSMlee: JD:I think doc phill is still sout about the break up with his wife he dose not fill holes as much as make them bigger these day
Posted 11/22/09 at 12:06am
JDKJ: You should get Phil McCraken to help you spackle those banisters.
JDKJ: You should get Phil McCraken to help you spackle those banisters.
Posted 11/21/09 at 11:57pm
ZippyDSMlee: Oh in the pirate hunter article I need my song ieda heckled DS,JD,Beemon sic im !!!
ZippyDSMlee: Oh in the pirate hunter article I need my song ieda heckled DS,JD,Beemon sic im !!!
Posted 11/21/09 at 11:56pm
ZippyDSMlee: JD:no I am tried from prepping the banisters for painting , worked on them from 12 to 4 and 6 to 8...after I got back from the store...got up early got ready...blah...been up all day..I need a nap...
ZippyDSMlee: JD:no I am tried from prepping the banisters for painting , worked on them from 12 to 4 and 6 to 8...after I got back from the store...got up early got ready...blah...been up all day..I need a nap...
Posted 11/21/09 at 11:42pm
JDKJ: No. You gonna stay up late tonight soldering?
JDKJ: No. You gonna stay up late tonight soldering?
Posted 11/21/09 at 11:41pm
ZippyDSMlee: JDKJ:Don't you mean Mctite?
ZippyDSMlee: JDKJ:Don't you mean Mctite?
Posted 11/21/09 at 11:33pm
JDKJ: @Zip: Neil, Bob, and Lik McTaint. The McTaint brothers. LOL!!!
JDKJ: @Zip: Neil, Bob, and Lik McTaint. The McTaint brothers. LOL!!!
Posted 11/21/09 at 09:44pm
Flamespeak: I still think military personell, killing other military personell, on a military complex should be handled by military courts.
Flamespeak: I still think military personell, killing other military personell, on a military complex should be handled by military courts.
Posted 11/21/09 at 09:43pm
Flamespeak: I could see this a mixture of the two charges rather than just one or the other.
Flamespeak: I could see this a mixture of the two charges rather than just one or the other.
Posted 11/21/09 at 09:43pm
Flamespeak: I think this was mainly a person who snapped, but evidence is showing he definitely had strong inlinations to islamic-extremism.
Flamespeak: I think this was mainly a person who snapped, but evidence is showing he definitely had strong inlinations to islamic-extremism.
Posted 11/21/09 at 09:41pm
Flamespeak: People are trying to claim that Hasan's actions were not terrorism. I don't jump on the 'terror train' like others, however
Flamespeak: People are trying to claim that Hasan's actions were not terrorism. I don't jump on the 'terror train' like others, however
Posted 11/21/09 at 09:38pm
mentor07825: Britain certainly does deserve it! And the French! God damn it, it was a hand ball!!!
mentor07825: Britain certainly does deserve it! And the French! God damn it, it was a hand ball!!!
Posted 11/21/09 at 09:34pm
ZippyDSMlee: mentor07825:Well Brittan dose deserve it....
ZippyDSMlee: mentor07825:Well Brittan dose deserve it....
Posted 11/21/09 at 09:33pm
ZippyDSMlee: Alyric:I don;t hasliburton having to pay back billoins... don;t you love it when the rich roll over the goverment without a care?
ZippyDSMlee: Alyric:I don;t hasliburton having to pay back billoins... don;t you love it when the rich roll over the goverment without a care?
Posted 11/21/09 at 09:32pm
mentor07825: I say we nuke the whales, for the benefit of both mankind and the environment.
mentor07825: I say we nuke the whales, for the benefit of both mankind and the environment.
Posted 11/21/09 at 09:28pm
Austin_Lewis: I say we try Al Gore too. I always said he was in on the racket.
Austin_Lewis: I say we try Al Gore too. I always said he was in on the racket.
Posted 11/21/09 at 09:16pm
Alyric: The leaked information proves these organizations knowingly defrauded governments (i.e., taxpayers) out of billions of dollars. Yet there will probably never be a trial.
Alyric: The leaked information proves these organizations knowingly defrauded governments (i.e., taxpayers) out of billions of dollars. Yet there will probably never be a trial.
Copyright © 2007 ECA. All rights reserved.
Game Politics and Game Politics logo are trademarks of the ECA.
Game Politics and Game Politics logo are trademarks of the ECA.
Comments
The fact that they open the containers take the disc out of the container and then place it behind their counter and then try to claim they are selling you a new game is BS too. Hence why I don't buy any "new" games from GameStop if I wanted a game that had already been jacked with I would buy a used game for 10-20 bucks less.
right.... cause taking it out of the case (to prevent it's theft, while still allowing you to see the case) makes it sooo less valuable.
To quote you, "right.....", because a company that's been caught performing fraudulent bullshit before is worthy of that kind of trust.
Gimme a friggin break...
The point isn't that it makes it less "valuable", it's that once they open the case, there is no way to prove to the customer that it a)isn't used (sold to them), b)hasn't been played in the store, or c)hasn't been "checked out" by employees.
Seriously? Are you actually defending their bullshit? You don't have to remove the friggin disc from its case to "prevent its theft", you simply have to keep the new games in the back.. you know, where customers aren't allowed to tread? If they're worried about being busy and having to run back alot, keep 5-10 of each of the 10 to 20 latest/hyped titles behind the counter. Problem solved.
"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary
For 'a)' they put a seal sticker on the game box and as long as that new seal isn't broken, the customer can return the game no problems.
For 'b)' and 'c)' you can always refuse to accept any open cases. Not all their games are open. They usually only have a handfull open while the rest are still factory sealed behind the counter. Also, if the disk is damaged when you get home (ie any scratches) you can always exchange it for a new one.
Seriously. This is not as bad as everyone is making it out to be. While I do question the practice of loaning new copies out to employees, I see no problem loaning used copies or designating a single new copy for employee use and then selling that one as used once everyone had their turn.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
A) They also put stickers all over the cases and leave your packaging covered with crappy adhesives. Doesn't matter to you but I like having a collection that doesn't stick together.
B) Gamestop is infamous for ordering only enough to cover preorders. So that copy you can alway refuse is often the only copy.
C) I hate buying a "NEW" GBA game with Super Robot Wars.. being told it's new, and finding a 30 hour campaign save file and groove scratches on the cart.
Wall of Text Simulation- Insert coin to continue.
a) it is called alcohol and a cotton swab.
b) then preorder it if you know you are getting it the first day, or buy it from a big box store like Walmart or Target.
c) Then you have every right to exchange it for a real new copy. No law saying you have to keep a damaged new product.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
Why the crispy jesus fuck should a consumer have to go through all that bullshit (alcohol and a cotton swab, are you fucking kidding me?) when we expect a new product to be sold as new?
"Buy it from a big box store..." I think I will, thanks. Fuck Gamestop.
(also, all this shit is old news. They've been doing this sort of grabass fuckery for years)
So if you bought a "new" car, then found out it had been taken home by the guy who sold it to you and been used to run personal errands for a week, that would be fine?
Oh, and it was covered in bird shit when they gave it to you. But that's cool because, hey, you've got some washcloths and a hose, right?
Don't defend bad business practices. The more shit you let them get away with the further they'll push the envelope. By condoning you enable.
CounterfeitCulture.com: Gaming news and commentary for the socially-adjusted nerd.
Did I say to just accept that the game had been previously played? No. I said, if it bothers you you have the power to make sure it it undamaged and clean.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
No, indeed you did not say to just accept the game. You made facetious remarks instead.
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
Yes they were facetious, but only because well reasoned arguments and defenses are falling on deaf ears, or blind eyes in the case of text chatting.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
Have you ever tried to bring anything back to Gamestop? The first thing they do is say, "You can't bring it back because it's open." Then if you explain that the disc is scratched, they try to blame YOU for it and won't take it back. (This was a 15 minute long argument I had with one of their employees which had me forcing them to call the manager on his day off.)
Gamestop is run by a bunch of fucking thieves and nitwit store clerks.
I haven't purchased anything from them in well over a year, nor will I be in the future.
This has NEVER happened to me at my gamestop, but then again the local guys all enjoy my custom. Hell, I play left 4 dead with them every few nights just for fun, the manager and assistant manager and one other guy.
I once brought in a disc that had been scratched when my dog knocked over my Xbox (literally a day after buying it), they charged me 3 bucks for insurance on the game and let me have a new one. That's why I always shop at that Gamestop; the guys are great.
Sure, not every gamestop is like that, but I've never had an experience like you've had. The only place I've seen bad gamestop service is at malls, but then again they hire morons for the mall stores for some reason.
As for the whole loaning games to employees, that's not a new thing. They basically check it out, and many times the employee, if the game is good, buys that copy. The problem here is that they were being labeled as new.
I was able to return a game that was scratched for a new copy. Must be because my gamestop knows me pretty well.
http://www.magicinkgaming.com/
thats why i buy my games from buy.com or newegg.com
Well I for one, watched as a friend opened Street Figher IV, from GameStop on release day, which had clearly been played before. Lets just say we were not happy, and they did not want to exchange it as it was release day, and we would have lost our preorder fee asking for a refund.
When you pay $60+ for a new game it should be unused/never opened, however I have no problem if the store allows its workers to "check out" a game, but it should not be sold as new.
~Weatherlight~
If you recieved a gutted copy (meaning no plastic wrap) why did you not as a customer open the case and check the disc before you even moved from the counter? If it was a factory seal plastic wrap copy, they do get scrathed in shipping. Remember Halo 2? Three whole boxes of games were scratched in ust our store's shipment. THe little clip thing that holds the disc in place had broken and destroyed the discs.
You kinda missed his whole point about the store refusing to exchange a defective product they sold him.
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
No, I understand that. I will be the first to agree with you that GS's return policy is BS. It really is. I can also tell you that the employees battle with you so hard about returns most of the time because GS will FIRE YOU for returnign a single game like that if they catch wind of it. Alot of these guys are just tryign to keep their jobs by doing what they're told. THat's why I was removed, because I didn't do what I was told for about a year. But I still hold to the fact that if I was handed a game that was not sealed I would ask why, WHILE I opened the box myself and checked it for scratches before I left just incase it was scratched. Think of it like checking the bag at the drive through to make sure they got your order right.
When you have to check a game that is being sold to you as brand new, there is a serious failing somewhere.
You shouldn't be being put in a position where you have to question whether the brand-new unused game you're buying is in fact brand-new and unused.
I agree that even if employees are being arses, it's largely due to GS policy, but that doesn't mean GS plicy should be defended.
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
I don't really think it's a great thing one way or the other, I just don't see why everyone is making such a big deal out of it, as long as it has no impact on your ability to use the game. I hve a problem with people attacking the 'slave labor' since that is really how they are treated by GS corporate. Not every GS is full of idiots and jerks. SOme are made up of very friendly people. Hell, the store I worked at was in a major mall here in AZ and we had some of the greatest people. Like Austin said was his case, we often all hung out together outside of work and worked hard to NOT be the store full of idiots. Now, one solution as far as loaning them out for 'review' (like in my case) would be for GS to supply review copies of the game that are not sold (or sold as used after a certain amount of time). This does creae an issue of what games would they supply us. Obvisouly not EVERY game. But the major ones could be.
Earlier up the thread someone made it sound as thoguh every copy is gutted, and this is not true. If you are REALLY paranoid, I guess you could always look at the type of plastic wrap on teh box in addition to the top of the case. GS uses a standard heat-based shrink wrap that is messy and easy to identify. A TRUE factory new game has that thicker wrap with the folds on the ends. Underneith that is a identification sticker that goes across the top holding the two sides shut. This is added by the factory, not by GS.
I was not the one to pickup the game from the store, as I would have made them show me the disc. Often I get together with a group of friends on release day, where we buy just one copy of the game and then play it a bit and if in a week we still like it then we buy our own copies. It was someone elses turn to pickup the game.
It was a GameStop sealed copy. Here they put their own seals on them. Often they take the discs out of the case and put them in the sleeves, upon selling them they put them into the case for you and put two seals on it, and if broken you are not able to return the item as new, as they only take returns on "unopened games".
The damage to the disc was not scratches like you would find from it being lose in the case, rather marks like you would find on disc where the 360's CD drive is a little off. Since it was on release day, the only ones who could have used it are the employees, and its not like they got it mixed up with a trade in. One of the employee's damaged the disc and then decided to pass it off to a customer instead of being honest that they damaged a copy. After arguing with them they were willing to take a return on it minus the deposit, however we wanted the game and they would not exchange it for another copy.
~Weatherlight~
Ah, ok. See, at my store I would have returned that no problem. Also when I was there they didn't have their own stickers. I don't know if they do or not now though. Like I said, this was like, 5 years ago. THAT seems rather shady to me for them to be trying to mask the opened copy.
If they're worried about games being stolen then nothing's stopping them from having duplicate (fake) boxes on the shelf while keeping closed packages at the back.
Seriously, why open a hundred boxes just to avoid the "one" on display from being stolen? It's just plain silly.
Yes there is. It is called publishers not wanting to print extra sleeve inserts for store display cases.
Personally, I think all this can be solved with GS investing in glass cases like those found at Walmart. If people can't get to the games at all, they don't have to worry about theft.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
I don't understand. Why does Gamestop require the Publisher to do a task which should be a cinch for them, or even a ten year old with a printer?
The place I go to makes their own duplicate covers.
And yeah, they can go the glass case route too. In the end there are hundreds of alternatives to opening 42352542352345 boxes.
Why do it yourself if the publisher can do it for you for a 10th the cost. Seriously. It costs the publisher $.02 per hundred sleeves (guestimated cost) to print, but for Gamestop it would cost $.47 per color copy to print. Which is the better deal?
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
Oh, I misunderstood, I thought you were saying the Publishers refused to do so. Well, if they can get the Publisher to print covers for them then they should jump to it and ask instead of taking discs out of boxes.
Your guestimation is grossly inaccurate. You also assume all box covers would be printed locally. Nothing is stopping Gamestop from going to that same printer and sending the covers to all stores from a corporate level. They already print out the preorder boxes, you know.
Wall of Text Simulation- Insert coin to continue.
Those preorder boxes come from the publisher not GS. They could print their own sleeves en mass for a cheaper price. I was just trying to make a point.
But if they do, they will have get licesing permission from the publisher and if they are going to go through all that trouble, they might as well just ask for the sleeves from the publisher or by glass cases for every store.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
"$.02 per hundred sleeves (guestimated cost) to print"
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest you know absolutely nothing about printing. How close am I to that?
Yeah, you're right. Bad numbers but the point is still valid.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
It's not valid. Not one bit.
If they print up those for individual stores to use, they still have to pay to sort and distribute those items. That also costs money.
Then you have retail chains that all use different rack sizes. Do you print up stuff for each individual retailer?
I agree, Jack Thompson uses bad numbers all the time.
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
You are right it doesn't make it less valuable it also doesn't insure to me that they didn't just hand me a used game that they bought for 10 bucks and are now selling it as if its new; it also doesn't insure to me that they didn't jack the disc/cartridge up in some way (but I guess they wouldn't ever do that because you know corporations are soooo trustful; banks also wont give loans to people that cant pay them back and AIG obviously would refuse to insure such toxic loans if they ever did happen)
Hey look a Target; Hey look a Best Buy; Hey look money not going to GameStop.
Same here. If I can avoid it I never buy from GameStop. The fact that they loan 'new' games out to employees simply confirms my worst fears about the company.
I don't know why everyone's acting so surprised. GameStop has been doing this for years. Anyone who asked someone who works or worked at GameStop knows this.
----
Papa Midnight
http://www.thesupersoldiers.com
Just because it is known to the employees does not mean its known to the rest of the world. I'm sure the employees in the 1900s Meat Packing Industry knew all about the nasty crap going on but it took a Journalist releasing that information in the Jungle for the rest of the world to know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meatpacking_industry
Assuming everyone else knows just because you know is a bad assumption to do and I can think of many situations in which if people hadn't spoken up and just assumed everyone knew it was going on and just accepted it; it would still be going on now.
Talk about a story that's bad for business. How about a class action lawsuit?
My sites Buy Netbook Vancouver Apartments Cheap Tel Domain
:: Shrugs ::
Knew about this a long time ago. Heard a few employees talking about it.
What? You think auto dealers aren't going out driving some of the really cool cars and then selling them as new? You're joking, right?
As to them opening the boxes to put the games behind the counter, I can understand why. Too easy to steal some of the games. And these small businesses (I mean in the sense of the size of the specific store itself), can't always afford the special security equipment.
I live with it. After all, every so often, they put the wrong game in the box and when I check it there to be sure, they sometimes let me have the game because it was their mistake. It's very, very rare when it happens, so it's not like I'm filling up with lots of games. Maybe 3 games in 5 years among about 4 or 5 stores in town.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl
I used to go to this one EBgames all the time back when I lived in NH. I was lucky enough to have a situation where I knew them (kind of) and they knew me. They knew what I wanted and knew not to pull shit with me. They knew I knew the difference between shrink wrap and factory seal. So when Gamestop took over I didn't really have a problem. There was a time back in 2003 or so when I opened a shrink wrapped copy of Onimusha and there was no disc in the goddamn box, but I knew it would be pointless to try to convince them. Then there was another time I got a disc that was scratched as shit and they let me exchange it, so it's a mixed bag and it really depends on where you are. *shrugs*
I haven't bought any games from any other Gamestop since I moved though. Best Buy and Walmart ftw.
www.gameslaw.net
I have one Gamestop I go to and I try very hard not to go to any other Gamestops, because the rest of them are incompetant. I wish I had your track record with getting the wrong game; It's happened to me twice in as many months, and the last time they tried to tell me that the box was wrong and there was absolutely no difference between Baiten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean and Baiten Kaitos: Origins. "But we gave you what was on the label!"
"I didn't look at the label, I looked at the box. I want what's on the box or a refund."
"It's the same game, anyway."
I've also had a GS sell me a used DS system that didn't have a Nintendo battery and that battery would not charge.
Although to be entirely fair, this is all about used (we're talking about new) and there was one situation where I reserved the game, but they gutted one of the reserve copies and I was the last one to pick up mine. They sold it to me at the used price. That was pretty considerate.
Your automobile analogy is horse crap. To wit:
1) If a "new" car has an excessive odometer reading, it's going to be sold at a lower price then one that doesn't! No car arrives at the dealer with a reading of zero - every car will pick up a few miles during the assembly process. It's also illegal to tamper with an odometer and in today's climate I doubt any dealer would be stupid enough to try it.
2) The factory warranty on the car would cover any theoretical damage that might occur down the road from someone taking it out for a joyride.
In fact, I would argue that people are more likely to get deals when they buy display or demo models of any product because they are considered to be "used" and there is uncertainty about what sort of wear and tear the product has been through.
I worked for EB Games (Now gamestop) from 2000 till 2004. This was old news then.
As long as disk media isn't scratched or scuffed, there's no difference between a new or used game.
"Oh no, this READ ONLY MEDIA DISK has been spun in a machine before, it's tainted!"
When i bought my last car, it had 46 kilo's on it already, i didn't complain.
Your fault for being satisfied with a business that commits fraud upon you, then. What you are forgetting to address is that Gamestop changes the price which the customer must pay depending on whether or not it meets the company's definition of "new".
If you're fine with Gamestop committing outright fraud, and charging you $10-$20 more per game as a result, ok then, more power to you, but don't act like you're the better person for it. Standing up for your rights as a paying costumer is something that other people take seriously, and rightly so.
"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary
I ain't never seen a 10 or 20 dollar difference there between used and new, though that would be nice. Try more like 5 dollars.
If a game has been spun, it's not new. A machine ALWAYS puts scratches in a disc and those scratches may make the disc unplayable IMMEDIATELY. There's a big difference between buying a game new and putting those scratches in myself, and buying a game 'new' with those scratches already in the disc.
As others have said, if you're happy being defrauded, that's entirely your problem. It shouldn't be mine.
Do you even read what you post before you post it?
"A machine ALWAYS puts scratches in a disc and those scratches may make the disc unplayable IMMEDIATELY."
What you have said here is that EVERY SINGLE DISC I put in my PS3 at home gets scratched. Regardless. This disc is now unplayable. How then do I continue to play it? To trade it in? To lend it to a buddy and have it work just fine?
'New" to me honestly just means that the disc is in mint condition with no visible scratches or scuffs. Not that it hasn't been spun. You guys seriously just sound like obsessive collectors. Admittedly, when a game comes out that I really really care about enoguh to order a collector's edition, I will only buy the factory seal. Does it have any impact on the game itself? No. But i'm weird that way *shrug*
Did you miss the word MAY its in the above sentence it MAY make the disc unplayable ... Hell you even copied the line.
As an example for the above I have an original ps2 you want to know what they were famous for doing letting the disc touch the laser you want to know what that does to a disc it scratches the hell out of it. Did it do 100% of the time obviously No because I used it until the smaller ones came out did it do it enough to make me buy Castlevania 3 times yes yes it did.
You're correct, I did miss the word 'may'. My apologies. But thanks for pointing it out with such douchebaggery. Appreciated.
I think you are taking the 'may' WAY too far. I have a vast game collection. NEVER have I had any of my systems scratch a disc like that. Ever. I have an original PS2 as well and never had that problem. Was it an issue with the system? Yeah. Could you tell by looking at the disc it after it had been in there? Yeah. 'May' is not 'always', but you are behaving as if it does. You could look at alot of the discs in my collection and think I had just bought them yesterday (the ones that ARE scratched are my fault. I didn't always take care of my stuff
)
Your welcome I try my hardest to be a douchebag but god its soooooo much work.
I know right? There needs to be some kind of response template we can develop for future use
I think we need to contact JT I bet he has one already set up.
When I worked for Software Etc. in 1997, we did this all the time. No one thought anything about it then and I still don't consider it a problem now. I wonder why Kotaku ran with this as if it was a new development. Did no one else know about this until today? Judging by the comments I've seen, the answer is no.
Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com
I knew about the practice, which is why I dont normally buy games from GameStop. The problem is there are not many places you can get a game on release day or for that matter preorder a game. Last time I did a preorder from Walmart I got the game 2 days after the release, the only other place nearby that does preorders is BestBuy and in this area they are famous for running out of copies before filling their preorders. So if you are looking for a game on release day GameStop is your best bet, but you risk getting it after it has been played.
~Weatherlight~
You know what is funny about that, when I preorder from GameStop they wouldn't let me have the preorder copy on the day it came out; in fact they fought with my father and I for us to even get our preordered game from them ... and this is why I also don't preorder anything.
This interests me. What was their reasoning? I know the people who do the ordering are idiots and half the time we were never sent the correct amount of copies.
To tell you the truth I have no clue what their reasoning was they even flat out told us they had the games in the back I do remember the game it was AC2 granted crappy game so no big loss on the no getting to play it on the first day but did teach me my lesson on preorder
As a sidenote my girlfriend was trying to be nice and she preordered me warhammer from ebgames signed her up at the same time for a 12 dollar a month charge for preorder crap now granted this is probably her fault for not reading on the pre clicked bs but it was just one more reason to never ever give a company money before hand.
That happened when we preordered a copy of Red Alert 3 premier edition for the PC, they took an extra day to get it to us. There explanation was that it came with GameStop exclusive extras, which they had not yet received. Now we just order the basic edition of whatever game we want.
~Weatherlight~
Yeah...that was someone in shipping fucking up. *sigh* Their corporate office really needs to get their shit together.
Odd, that never happened to me, but then again i usualy go to mignight launches for my pre-orders.
http://www.magicinkgaming.com/
I don't really like Game Stop because their PC games section hardly exists if at all. I however think it is a dispicable practice to let someone play a new game and then turn around and sell it as new for a new price. To me, that does seem deceptive--it's not so much the fact that the game was played, it's the fact that it's not being sold as used.
If they want to have a check out policy, that's fine, just do it from the used section so you don't lose profit.
Also, there is just something about ripping off the plastic wrap, breaking the seal on a new game yourself and getting a whiff of the new plastic smell on the game box. That's not something you get out of used.
Praetorian
"If you sit by the river long enough, you will see the body of your enemy floating by."
http://www.myspace.com/pree_tawr_ee_uhn
On the surface it doesn't seem like such a big deal, but the fact of the matter is that GameStop themselves make a distinction between the price of new games and the price of used games. If I'm paying $60 for a new game, it had better be a brand new game that has never been removed from the case. Otherwise, I should only be paying the used price for it.
Man you guys are so ... i don't know. If the disk , case and manual are still in mint condition, does it really matter if the plastic has already been removed? They put a frikkin seal on open new games so that you can still return it as new as long as the seal isn't broken.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
If it's been opened, the game CANNOT be in mint condition. The whole definition of 'mint' means that it is unopened. A game that's opened and played can only ever be described as 'Near Mint'.
So only 20 minutes in the discussion and we are already arguing symantics? Fine. Not since keeping this one up.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
It's not symantics. Mint is a term that means 'undamaged as if freshly minted'. A game that's opened and played is BY DEFINITION not in mint condition. There are no 'degrees' of 'mintness' that leave the term open to symantical debate or personal interpretation - the game is either in mint condition or it's not. It's like the word 'perfect' - there is no degree of perfectness - a thing is either perfect or it's not.
...
semantics
¬_¬
Here are we -- and yonder yawns the universe.
In case you are unaware, legal arguments are almost entirely about semantics. This topic is about whether or not a particular GameStep business practice is illegal (i.e., fraudulant). Trying to dismiss a valid argument on the basis that it is concerned with semantics is, in this context, absurd.
CounterfeitCulture.com: Gaming news and commentary for the socially-adjusted nerd.
The semantics (fixed that for you guys) that were being argued is the difference between mint and near mint. We were not arguing about New, Kind of new and used.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
Here is a great example of how to classify stuff Mint means New in the world of coin collection (damn you dad) a Mint coin can only exist if it has been handled very little by human hands this is because our hands are acidic and therefore it will cause wear and tear on the metal degrading it.
A mint coin in all truth should be as close to the "mint" as you can get. Near Mint means it looks good but it has some minor wear.
In gaming terms you can view it this way mint for a game means it is still factory sealed or the very most unsealed but also unhandled, near mint is it has been opened and handled, very good means it has been handled and the manual has creases from use, good means it has some scrathes (nothing too bad) and the manual has been well used, poor means the game has scratches that make it almost unplayable and the manual is either torn up or lost, very poor means the game can't play and there is no manual.
As such once a game is open (not factory sealed) it is almost certainly not mint anymore and if a employee takes it home and plays it then there is no case for calling it mint anymore it is now near mint meaning USED. As such paying Mint price for a Near Mint or Very Good product is stupid , hence why I don't buy from them.
But that disc had to be put inside that box and the box sealed at one point... so the disc has already at some point in the manufacturing process been out of that box. So if it hasn't been played, it should still be, you know, mint.
Considering the fact that I could be paying anywhere from $5-$20 extra for it? Fuck yes, it matters.
How do you know that they put that seal on before anyone in the store had a chance to play it? Because they're just that trustworthy? Seriously? If you sell a game back to them, even if it's in "mint condition", they reduce the price because it is officially used. If they let 4 or 5 employees "borrow" a new game, and it still appears to be in "mint condition" afterwards, they still get to call it officially new and charge me full price for it?
"Oop, wait a second, Bob! I didn't slap one of those seals onto it, yet! We can't have some shmuck thinkin its not really new, can we?"
How is this ok to you?
"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary
Wow, such an inflammatory and ignorant comment. Have you ever frikkin bought a game at GS? They put the seal on the game when you buy it. IF you ask, they will show you the condition of the disk before putting the seal on it.
There is nothing here that cannot be dealt with by a customer asking the employee for a factory sealed copy first, if none are available, asking to see the condition of the disk, if the disk is damaged, asking for a slight discount on the game.
Seriously. It is that simple.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
Yeah, no shit, you can ask for a factory-sealed copy of the game. That's not the point of the article, nor of this conversation.
Granted, I like to consider myself an informed customer, and I'm pretty aggressive when it comes to holding a seller to a certain level of quality, however - why should the burden be on the customer, in this case, when it's, in simple point of fact, a fraudulent act to let (who knows how many) people from the store borrow a certain copy of the game, and then keep it officially labelled as new, and at full price?
Again, I don't understand how you think this is ok, or that it's not a big deal. They are charging people extra fucking money for a game that should be labelled as "used".
Also, how is anything I've said "inflammatory" or "ignorant"? You want inflammatory? How's this: I think you're a fucking moron for lettting GS give it to you up the ass.
"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary
Who said anything about me loving to shop at GS? My comments come from my understanding of business especially the way GS runs their theirs. I am only arguing in their defense because I know how their system works. Not because I like it, nor 100% approve of it, but because I understand it. There is a difference.
Also, I have not been arguing in support of the act of loaning out new copies of games and still selling them as new. If you read my comments from near the top of the discussion, you will see quite clearly I disapprove of that practice.
I am simply arguing the fact that the act of opening a box and removing the disk does not negate the fact that the game is still new and worth the new price.
Up to this point, you never made the distinction that this discussion was solely about selling the loaned copies of games as new. All you comments up to this point were about selling open copies as new.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
You're defending them because you understand them? WTF sort of reason is that?
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
Its the same reason I understand (support/defend) Peta even though they whole sell slaughter more animals then any other group wait wait no I hate Peta because they put down more animals then any other group thats right. Sorry I was confused it happens.
I am defending them because I understand why they gut copies of the game. Not because I approve of it or that there are no alternatives. Just that I understand why they do it and how they treat the games that are gutted. I am not however defending the process of loaning out new games to employees and selling those loaned games as new. I do understand however that there are policies in place that protect from damaged loans being sold as new.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
Apparently though, at least for some of the people who have commented here, the policies "that protect from damaged loans being sold as new" don't always work, and then customers cannot always return the game for another new copy. Just because policies are supposed to be there doesn't mean they are effective.
-- Obi
Honestly I think they should just change their terminology since that's what seems to have alot of people pissed off. Change "Used Games" to "Trade Ins" and there you go. You are paying less for a "traded in game' meaning it is a disc purchased from another person, not sent to the store by the factory.
This isn't new. EB Games allowed this as a policy when I worked for them in the 90's.
-- Dan "SWATJester" Rosenthal; Executive Director, http://www.gameslaw.net
While this is misleading it really doesn't seem like such a big deal to me. So I end up paying $5 more for a game that's been played by someone else for four days. Unless the employee in question has a damaged console four days should not cause any damage to the game in question.
Life doesn't always make sense. If it did it would be boring.
Since when are new games at GameStop only $5 more than used games? Plus, the first few days of use are the big ones - 75% of the disc wear will happen on those first days. If you're happy buying a heavily used game for top dollar, that's your prerogative, but I prefer not to be a sap.
Usually around release time, if you go in for a new release a couple days after the game comes out you'll find used copies from around $5 to $1 cheaper then New pending the title.
The whole NEW thign is a shame, bring back returns so you can proplery lable lighty used stuff as new..... basic warrenty will cover any issues that might arise.....
Fckers are making a killing off used game sales and wont even allow consumers the basic necessity of returning a POS game....
Gore,Violence,Sexauilty,Fear,Emotion these are but modes of transportation of story and thought, to take them from society you create a society of children and nannys, since adults are not required.
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com
My question would be: If GameStop allows the employees to play a game and then sell the game as "new", what happens when someone comes into the store to sell a game and the disc, manual, etc. are still in new condition? Would they sell that as new?
My guess: Yup, you betchya! Who's going to know?
No. All games that come in as trades are put in completely different cases and stored in different cabinets. Stop tryign to make out every single employee as being some jerk-off who has a conspiracy to sell you used games as new. The employees make no money from comission, and 95% of the time are gamers just like you and me. Why in the HELL would they be trying to screw you? That's why the gutted copy is the only one loaned out. Because the customer would already be informed that the package had been opened for display purposes, and the slightest scratch on the disc upon it's return resulted in the employee buying it. They have sign out/in logs for every single game that leaves that store from an employee.
First off let me say in advance, and I will say it again when I am done, What I am about to say is in no way a defense of the practice of selling a loaned out copy of a new game as new.
If a car dealer borrows a car for the weekend (we all know they do it) can he still sell it as new? Yes. Why? Because no one has actually bought it.
If a customer buys a car, drives it just for a weekend and decides he doesn't like it and wants to sell it, can it be sold as new? No. Why? because someone has actually bought it.
Even if ther is no physical difference between the cars in both examples, the differnece is that money has been exchanged for the car in the second example. But the second car will be sold for quite a bit more than the same car if it had been driven for a year or more. Also, if a new car has considerably more miles than what would be considered average for a new car to have, it can be discounted if the customer asks for it.
How does this relate to games? If I buy a new game, play it for a day and decide I don't like it, I cannot sell it as new. Gamestop cannot sell it as new. Why? Because it has been sold and the seal broken.
If a new copy has been opened and the disk never played, it can still be sold as new as long as a new seal is placed on the game. Why? Because it was never sold nor played.
But a game that has never been sold but has been played is another beast entirely. And I don't support that practice.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
Stop trying to make it about car sales.
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
Goddamn the ignorance is thick in this thread. Unlike 90% of you guys in this thread, Zachery is actually making valid arguments and you guys just refuse to even acknowledge his points, let alone actually make (competnent) counter arguments.
Honestly half the arguments here don't even matter anyway. I have 2 buddies that works at 2 GS where I live, typically what happens if there is even the slightest hint of a scratch when they return it, they sell it used. Which for new releases its only a $5 difference tops.
However a game returned under the employee rental with no evidence of scratches, is sold as new again. Customers still has the oppurtunity to look at the game since it is opened, make a decision, and still exchange for the same copy if by some chance the disc does not work. The last part invalidates 90% of the arguments in this thread.
Not to mention, ALOT of people (pulling from my retail experience) seem to confuse return/exchange policies. Most place don't allow returns (games/movies/electronics, ect) of previously brand new items for full refunds just cause you "didn't like the item". Which alot of people try to hide "I didn't like it" with "Its broken". For all we know that customer could have used it till kingdom come or did what he needed it to do. Its why most places have policies where new items being returned (unless something is geniunely wrong with it) can only be exchanged for the same item.
However in the case of GS, theres a major difference, accountability. If they wreck the game, it comes out of their pocket of their job gets wrecked.
Yea, I don't think its the best of practices, but at the same time it does give you options to bring it back and request a factory sealed product.
Simplified version for the braindead(which seems to be alot today)"
Get over it, its ultimately $5-$10 your crying about. You can exchange if it doesn't work anyway and Stop trying to scam the employees yourself by saying "the game doesn't work" when you mean "This game sucks"
Seriously? He's not trying to make anything about car sales. He's using car sales as an analogy in order to better express his argument. It's a common practice among people who know what they're doing.
-- Obi
There's a difference between test driving a $15,000+ purchase around the lot for a few miles to make sure you like how it feels. Every "new" car I bought had less than 50 miles on it.
If you're in a "new" car and the odometer reads over 1000, you're an idiot for paying full price for it. The difference here is the consumer HAS FULL INFORMATION as to how much a car was actually driven before purchase.
And it's a far cry different than paying for a $60 game that they're advertising as new. Should a "new" game have fingerprints on it? An open game is NOT NEW. It's not "mint." Period. End of story.
Any more straw man arguments to defend Gamestop?
Yep, his defence of GS seems solely based around 'Other people do it'.
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
The worst part about it is his ever-present claim of being in charge of the Oklahoma City chapter of the ECA (if i'm reading that right).. not the ESA, but the ECA.. and he's using "well, it's ok because all these other people do it" as his fucking arguments.
News flash - just because sales departments in other industries have a similar practice (eg - the stupid new car analogy), does not make it ok here. Good lord...
"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary
So, just because I am am member and Chapter president of the ECA, I have to side with the consumer on every issue no matter how illogical or reactionary it is?
This to me is a non issue. If however the ECA does issue a statement on this I will pass that on, but as of now, my personal opinion is that this is a non issue and there are plenty of safeguards already in place to protect you as a consumer.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
Typically from what I have seen a show room car is less expensive then a non show room car and the reason is the show room car is taken out by the car salesmen i.e. it has several hundred miles on it.
My new car had hardly any miles on it because they did a check on it and then they sold it to me.
What about new books ? I went to the local bookstore a few months ago to pick up a book as a gift for my mom, there was only one copy left and a young girl picked it up and began reading the first few pages ten or so pages before putting it back; I picked the book up and purchased it . The book was technically used because the girl had indeed read some of the book and had left fingerprints on the dust jacket . The book store sold it to me as new at full price . Did they commit fraud by selling me a book that had been slightly read ? Absolutly not . Is it fraud that gamestop does the same ? I certainly don't think so .
Do books come with seals across the cover and shrink wrapped to prevent you from opening it? Can you just pick up a game and flip through a couple of levels as you are standing there? Its a completely different case, you cannot compare it to books, you could compare it to CD's or DVD's for which you will find that there is a double standard when it comes to what is considered new.
~Weatherlight~
To suggest that a consumer cannot break the seal and call the product new but the seller can is absurd.
By your analogy, a seller could drive a car on the lot for 5 years and then sell it as 'new' because money never changed hands - no dealer would do such a thing. When I test drove a Prius a couple months back, they tried to sell me the test drive model at a discount because it was - shock - the test drive car. They did not try to sell it as "new" because no one had owned it, that's just stupid. It had obviously been used.
I received a game as a gift that I did not want without a receipt. When taking it into GameStop, they will only offer you the same as they give you for a used game even if it is fully sealed (Shrink wrap and all) and then they will resell it as new.
~Weatherlight~
Really? Why would they sell a game as new when they make much more on used? I call BS on that.
Having been a 3rd Key Manager for a Game Stop location, here's what was going down while I was there:
All games were kept in their original packaging, plastic wrap and all, with the exception of a single copy. That copy was 'gutted' and the box placed on the wall for display (the disc placed immediately into a jewelcase and placed in the cabinets behind the counter with the unopened copies). Unopened copies were sold first before all others (no stickers on them btw), when the last copy was the opened one, we told the customer that it was the display model and showed them the disc.
As far as checking games out, we would check out the gutted copies. As far as my store was concerned, I was a total hard ass about how games came back. If they had the slightest scratch on them, the employee just bought it.
This is not as bad as everyone is making it out to be. Quite honestly, I worked there about 5 years ago so I am suprised people are just now hearing about this.
Did you explain that the gutted out copy had been taken home by employees and wasn't just a "display" copy? That's fraud. You lied to your customers.
No, it's not fraud. In the U.S., fraud requires a false statement of a material fact, knowledge by defendant that the statement is untrue, intent by defendant to deceive the alleged victim, justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and injury to the alleged victim as a result. All of these elements must be shown to prove fraud.
-- Dan "SWATJester" Rosenthal; Executive Director, http://www.gameslaw.net
In other words a fraud statment would be this is a new game that was only open for display purposes when in fact the game is not new because it has been used by your store employees.
Its like your girlfriend saying she is a virgin but then you find out that everyone in the company has taken her home but it was only for a "few days" you still feel betrayed and your trust in her has been diminished (for women or homosexuals insert boyfriend instead of girlfriend in the above statement thank you)
did...did you REALLY just compare a game's use to a woman/man's virginity? Really? That is..just...*head explodes*
No I compared fraud to a women/men's virginity since that was how the line of talk had gone. What is and what is not fraud. You can claim the above statement is then right on track ...
Oh and thank for the return on the douchebaggery.
Hey, we are all one here. Just keepin' it lively.
Considering the disc in is MINT condition, it doesn't matter. This is not a car. It doesn't accumulate miles or become worse over time played (for the amount of time that it is in the store). You guys are blowing this WAY out of proportion. Honestly, our checked out/gutted copies are kept in much better condition than the display copies of pretty much any other product from any other store.
Does having the experience with a virgin disc really mean that much to you? No scratches, no cuffs, no marks. You would never even know unless we told you. For your information by the way, I had a couple people ask me about in while I was working there and straight up told them that we loan it out to employees and I explained the whole thing to them just as I have here. They would look at the disc, see that it was fine and buy it anyway. So your implication that I am a horrible person for 'lying' to my customers is insulting and idiotic. The ONLY thing they are missing out on is having to remove the plastic wrap and little annoying factory seal sticker on the top of the case.
Edit: Damn it, meant to hit reply. Refers to above statement that I am a liar.
"You would never even know unless we told you."
I rather think that's his point.
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
So the point is that the amount of difference it makes upon your gaming experience is so minescule that you would never even know about it unless someone told you? THis may be a terrible analogy, but to me that's like:
I hate mustard. Hate it. With a passion. Generally the smell will make me feel sick. I got married, and have had my mother in law's ham for several years now, only to have found out recently that she uses a very heavily mustard based coating for it. Did I ever notice? Hell no. THey told me because they thought it was funny. AM I goign to keep eating it? Hell yes, because it's still just as good.
I am in no way a fan of Game Stop. In fact, I refuse to purchase ANYTHING from them or their connected companies ever since I was fired for *gasp* TELLING THE TRUTH TO MY CUSTOMERS. Yeah. I got fired for telling customers about this specific practice. Did the customer care? No. DId the GM who happened to overhear me care? You bet your ass he did. When I checked games out, I would bring them home for a single evening, play it for 15 minutes and put it right back in the jewel case. Why only play it for 15 minutes or so? Because I wanted to at least have a general idea of how the game works in case a customer asked me. You know, so I wouldn't be one of the many many many complete idiots that works there and can never answer a question.
So you refuse to buy anything from GS but everyone else shoud continue to because you don't think what they are doing is so bad?
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
I really don't give a shit where other people buy their stuff. I don't buy from them because of my experiences while working there. Was this the onlyissue I had while working there? No. I was always in arguements with the corporate office about their handlign of my store, the assigned goal numbers, how they treated my employees, etc. I think they are a garbage company, but not because they let their employees check games out. To hate a company for that would be retarded.
How about hating them for that on top of all those other things? Or is that only allowed for former employees?
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
Again, you can hate them for whatever you want, I don't care. You could hate them because they use alot of red for as much as I give a shit. You are taking personal insult where there is none. I am stating why I personally don't purchase from them. Whatever reasons you have are none of my business at all.
What did you think I was saying? "I used to work there so you don't understand my hatred and misery!!!111 *slashwristsemo*" ? I am trying to provide my insight on this having worked there in the past so taht more information is available to you guys (like a few of the other former employees I have seen in this thread).
No, I see you saying 'We didn;t do this, therefore nobody does this, so stop whinging'
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
I never siad NO ONE did it. Thanks for putting the words in my mouth though. Tasted like candy.
What I AM saying is that not EVERYONE is like that. You are grouping ALL GS employees of every location together and makign them seem like evil thieves the same way JT throws all gamers in with child pornographers. ( there needs to be a Godwin term for pulling out JT as an example btw)
But also yes, I reall think everyone is overreacting. If it's THAT big of an issue for you, that's your right. So stop (if you haven't already) buying from them. Take your business elsewhere. Hit them where it hurts: their numbers. To prempt the 'one person not buying isn't going to effect them at all' argument; you're right. But if all those single people do it anyway, that leads to a group of people, which can become a large group of people, etc.
Hey, remember when they told you you couldn't tell a customer if you thought a game was bad?
Most people I see in a GS that buy the out of box new game, get told that the copy has been opened (yada yada yada). Most people don't have a problem with it, I might see one or two blow a gasket but alot just don't care, just as long as it works and there is no scratchs on it.
This thread is making a mountain out of a mole hill, and honestly if it was that HUGE of a problem, I HIGHLY doubt that it would still be going on after being around for well over a decade.
Seriously, stop nitpicking guys
Actually, it seems more like it's taken a decade for people to finally wise up and start questioning the business practices of these game retailers.
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
This reminds me of something....Coporate corruption! After all, nothing ever really changes until the shit hits the industrial sized fan.
There is an added complication of things like Spore, what happens if an employee borrows it, plays it, and creates an account, and then it is sold on?
Employees are only allowed to check out console (including handhelds) titles. No computer stuff, for just that reason.
Ah right, thanks for clarifying that :)
No worries. All console discs are reviewed by one of the three managers (whoever happens to be on duty) when the employee signs the game back in in the managment book (which is this enourmous thing used for trackign all sorts fo store info). SO the quality of these returned discs is based on those managers. Some can be "whatever I don't care", and some can be "if there's ANY visible mark, regardless how small you just bought it". THAT I think is where there's a problem. THe consistancy of how the management handles this is all over the place. If they're going to keep doing it (which I don't care one way or the other) they need to get a handle on that.
I suppose I don't really have a problem with the concept of it, I've worked in retail, and anyone who has to deal with the public deserves every perk of the job they can get ;)
As I posted a few minutes ago, the only other concern is Piracy, but as long as I get a game that works and has everything it should have, it's not really a problem for me.
For all the people bitching that this is "making a mountain out of a molehill"...
It's just a matter of honesty? Is the game being played for 15 minutes before you get it THAT big a deal? No, not for most of us, anyway.
But if it's not such a big deal, why does GS not just call the game "used"? Or specifically denote that this is "the store copy"? Why not just reduce the price by $5 and be honest about it?
I would think the value in customer trust is worth it.
From what I understand it has to do with what they paid for the new copy. Yeah it's a dumb reason, but that's what they have. I think reducing the floor disc's price by 5 bucks would be fine and is a good solution.
++ This.
If this is a non-issue, why does GS hide this information from its customers? This is where the whole "fraud" part comes in.
You want a good analogy, EZK? One that's far more relevant than your ridiculous new car? Go to Best Buy. Look around the electronics areas until you find a box that has a fat yellow label that says "OPEN BOX ITEM". The item is not pre-owned (no money exchanged hands, as you used as a defense in your car analogy), yet it's also not brand new, it's somewhere in-between, and they reduce the price because of it.
If Best Buy can do it, so can GS. They don't, because their corporate attitude is classic douchebag.
"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary
I can second this. The shop I used to work in would offer a price reduction for Display Items.
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
Another quick thought, what about Piracy? What happens if an unscrupulous employee decides to go home and make copies of the disc they have just borrowed? Now, I'll admit, that's not going to happen all that often, but, are there checks and balances in place for that?
That IS a concern. Actually, we fired an employee (and pretty sure GS sued him) for takign games home that way and ripping them to his home system (not really sure HOW). He then proceded to start selling burned copies right outside the store like an idiot on his breaks. THat was about 4 months before I got fired and after that we were unable to take games out.
That is an excellent point.
The only thing they can do is fire the guy when they found out. If they never found out, there is not much they can do. But if something stupid happens like what was described two points up, it would be very easy to fire the person. But if it never makes it back to the store, there is nothing they can do.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
How would a person checking out a game honestly cause, stop, or change this? If they want so badly to copy a game, they can simply steal it like so many other people do at so many other stores, make the copy, and either quitly return it, or just keep it to make more copies. I would see to it that somebody got fired and prosecuted if I caught them doing it, but checking out a game isn't going to stop somebody.
Hell even games that are download only are stolen and copied somehow...so that only those of us that pay for the game and don't even get to own or display it are screwed over by DRM and such. I remember the day before Spore came out one of the guys at the shop (he's no longer there...every store has bad apples to weed out...it's human nature) had a copy of Spore that he downloaded online that was DRM free and was playing it on his PC and his wifes laptop. I bought the game the day it came out new, even bought the guide and the DS version, and ended up having to redo my entire freaking OS on my computer because of how messed up the DRM was. At least my DS version worked lol.
Zen aka Jeremy Powers
www.ZensPath.com/WordPress
Xbox Live Gamertag: "Zen of the Dark"
PSN Gamertag: "Zenspath"
Wii System Code: "4919 8280 4221 9114"
I usually window shop at Gamestop anyway, I had an edge card with a subscription to their magazine but it doesn't really seem worth it when the magazine stops showing up half way through.
Honestly, the biggest issue I have with this is that they are setting the terms of whats new and whats not. I don't shop there, I don't give a shit at their prices, they can dig themselves into a hole for all I care. Their company, their rules. They are serving the customer and voilating them at the same time. Pretty games are pretty games. When some place or someone is practicing unfair policies the solution in the 'perfect world' would be to deny them your money until they wither and die. The world certainly isn't fair.
A absolutely can't stand GameStop's practice of opening games. I refuse to buy unsealed games and I can't get that damn "NEW" sticker off without damaging the case*.
So I don't shop there. Pretty simple really.
Andrew Eisen
*Lately, GameStop seems to be slipping the "NEW" tag in between the cover and the insert instead of gluing it to the case. A much better solution but I'd still prefer they not open the case.
And that is a really reasonable action as a consumer. Nothing is forcing anyone here to shop at GS. Don't like their practices, shop somewhere else.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
The only problem is that because they do not disclose this practice, and someone who is uninformed about this practice has no reason to believe this is going on, that there are people who buy a "new" game that has been previously played without being informed. The reason that one can say it is fraud is because Gamestop will sell these opened games without disclosing their policies.
Ding!
"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary
I'm so sick of hearing the "don't like it? Don't shop there, etc." defense. Just because nobody is forced to deal with GameStop's practices, that doesn't make it exempt from criticism.
Sure, I don't like GS's policies (plus those "USED" labels are a bitch to remove, and the tougher labels leave behind a residue) and as such I try to avoid shopping there. But just because I don't have to do business with them (I stick to Amazon and Walmart, thank you very much), that doesn't mean I'm not entitled to express disdain about they do things.
Just saying, is all.
--- I do more than just play games. I draw, too: http://www.silvermelee.deviantart.com
It's more about the fact that for some reason customers are bitching about the dumbest shit. What about the responsibility of the customer? Of course, what with how responsibility is going out of style in America, I can understand why this would be tough for most people, but still. I've NEVER had a problem with a game bought either new, used, or display copy from Gamestop. The few problems I ever had in the long run were caused by my dog, who seems to enjoy knocking into my Xbox when it storms outside. If you don't want a display copy, don't take the display copy. If you're worried, check it out before you take it home. Show some goddamn responsibility and backbone, and most importantly, STAND UP FOR YOURSELF YOU LAZY CUNTS. Fact is, you don't NEED that new game, and if you don't like the copy they're going to give you, leave. Goddamnit, is it really that hard to drive 10 minutes to another shop?
Having said that, I've never seen any of the problems some of the people here are reporting, and some of them sound absolutely made up. Fact is, you're going to encounter disgruntled and pissed off or lazy employees everywhere. I went to a Rolls-Royce dealership. I went wearing what I wear when I work at home; a T-shirt and some jeans, plus my good hat. Instead of serving me, the dealer spent the better part of 10 minutes berating me and mocking me for daring to step in his shop. So, I took him with me to the bank across the street, had them show him how much money I had in my account with them, and then walked outside, watched his demeanor change, and then told him that because he acted like a cunt, not only would I refuse to buy his product no matter what he would offer me, but I would suggest to others that they refuse to buy there. Never did get that Rolls-Royce. Went with a (barely) used Mitsubishi 3000GT I got off a college kid. The point of the story? There are other options, so don't take it if you don't like it. Go shop online if you want to. But I honestly don't believe some of these stories; I've been shopping at gamestop/EB for years and never had a bad experience other than with the customers there yet.
On a sidenote, if you want to talk about bad business practices, let's talk about Target. Makes gamestop look perfect. Employees will open those games, reshrinkwrap them, and put them back in the display. Or they'll outright steal 4 or 5 copies of new (popular) games. One of the reasons that Target has the highest crime rate of any big-box store.
That's too reasonable. You should be ashamed of yourself.
this is just me, but I would only buy a new game if it had never been opened. Now, I don't care about "mint condition" but any game I play has an added 50% chance of breaking. I have awul luck that way. So, I would NOT buy a used game that was being sold for a "NEW" price.
Really, though, what if GameSpot made a distinction between "heavily used" and "lightly used"? lightly used would have no problems seen in playtesting, while heavily used might have been cheated on or something.
Man, that reminds of this one time, i forget which store it was, but i once got a PC game as a present and at the time i had a non-intel based mac. So since i couldn't play we tried to return the game to get the mac version. Thing is though, the person who got the game neglected to check the package, and as it turn out the game was already opened when they bought (person in question is NOT game savy at all). The problem came up that it turned out the store had a no return policy for any games that had been opened.
Honestly, if the store had a leanding policy for it's employees then this would be some serious bullshit. For one thing, they did not check to make sure they re-sealed the package properly... second, they are more then happy to sell my a product that was used for a few days at full price, but at the same time unwilling to accept a return of the product that, in theory, was only used for a few days (though i did not play the game)
Hearing all about this concerning gamestop, I understand...Hearing some mostly negative views involving their practices, But hell...Some occassion i wished they had a better policy at making sure my games/equipment worked, I know some wont like me for this...but im somewhat a loyal customer of gamestop, Shit well cause the store's products are cheap, im in current hold of an EDGE card and some of the employees i've seen there seem happy about their job (An employee suggested this site to me) , And this is so far the only game store down here.
If i wanted to get RE5 for 60.00/tax at wal-mart/k-mart;F-NO,i'd do it out of desperation maybe, If i wanted it for 54.99 then yeah, I did it on SH:Homecoming and the game works fine, I'd made a mistake buying one game at the store once and returning it after learning it was screwed up and an employee that was getting fired anyway scratched my game on purpose, But i forgive them and they game me a Brand "NEW" copy that actually worked, Concerning this, Gamestop is just only good for me since im somewhat of a tpywad.
But now hearing that they using some "Loaning" thing to Employees , THAT has me now concerned some.
(But I'll still shop at Gamestop/EB)
I've never had a problem with anything new gamestop has sold me, and the one time I had a defective used product, they gave me a new copy with the price of the used slashed off of it.
The checking-out policy doesn't really surprise me or concern me. I usually don't buy new from Gamestop anyway.
Preorder. I go in every 2 months or so and ask them to print me a release date list. Then I preorder the ones off of that list that I want. I get a nice little recorded phone call on release date and I go pick up my pristine, unopened, game.
It's not rocket science.
I already refuse to buy anything from Gamestop - I know for a fact they sell used games as new and it enrages me greatly.
My wife bought a "new" game from a local gamestop a couple weeks ago, got home, peeled off the shrink wrap, and only then noticed that the security sticker across the opening was sliced down the middle with a knife so that the box could be opened and resealed to look new (unless you looked closely). So it was likely a used product that they resealed and re-shrinkwrapped even to get more money for the product.
She declined to take it back to the store because she knew they would give her bullshit about it being an open product and not returnable.
That kind of blatent false advertising absolutely seems illegal, and I hope the FTC rakes them over the coals for it. The fact that they also try to sell discs that have been removed from the box as "new" right in front of you is unbelievable also.
Seriously, pay attention to those security seals - and if someone tries to sell you something "new" that doesn't have one or is out of box, refuse. Buy games from bestbuy or some other large store instead.
Or it could be that it was a new opened box shelf copy that they cleared off the shelf, put the unplayed game disk back in the box and then shrink wrapped it. Ever thought of that?
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
I understand what you've been trying to say in all your comments, EZK. Now, granted I don't dick around when it comes to these things and I shop where I know my need will be met so I don't feel the need to complain. But for some people factory-sealed condition is important--me included.
www.gameslaw.net
Or it could be that it's disingenuous to sell open and/or used items as "new". Ever thought of that?
The fact that they are doing it without disclosing their policies (like Best Buy does, in my earlier example to counter your ridiculous "new car" analogy), is fraud. Maybe the customer would have a problem with it, maybe not, but it never gets that far because GS deliberately withholds the information.
Seriously, you're not doing the ECA any favors by attaching yourself to them and then shouting down people who are rightfully offended by demonstrated retail fraud. Just because you don't think this situation is important, and that it's a "non-issue", doesn't mean everyone should feel the same way. Yet that's exactly what you are conveying with your condescending tone.
Then again, who cares about a little bit of fraud here and there, eh? If they don't realize what's happening to them, and it's just $10-$15 they're losing on "new" items versus "used", no big deal, right?
GS should hire you for the "embedded" PR value.
"Life sucks, get a fuckin helmet" - Denis Leary
I am not shouting down anyone. If anything, I seem to be the one being shouted down. I am providing support for the understandable practice of gutting display copies and still selling them as new.
The reason I think this is a non-issue, until the ECA says otherwise it will remain, is because there are plenty of protections already in place to protect you.
Here is a handy guide to protecting yourself from potentially damaged open box new games:
1. Ask if there are any factory sealed copies.
2. If a seal looks suspicious, ask about it.
3. If there are no Factory sealed copies left and only gutted new display copies, ask to inspect the disk.
4. If the disk has noticable wear, ask for a different copy and repeat step 3.
5. If there are no unworn disks, ask for a discount.
6. If unable to get a discount shop somewhere else, otehrwise proceed to step 7.
7. Before paying for the display game, make sure the employee places a GameStop seal on the game so that you can return the game if need be and not be penalized for it if the GS seal is unbroken.
8. If for some reason after you performed steps 1-7 and the game is actually damaged and unplayable, you can still exchange it for another copy of the same game with no penalties.
It is that simple. There is nothing to get in a huff about. If you aren't doing that, you are not a very good customer.
As for getting a job in GS PR, no thanks, I prefer to make games not sell them.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
Alternatively:
1. Go to a better retailer and buy an unmodified copy of the product.
End.
Seriously, you're giving 8 steps on how to buy a new product from a retailer? Since when does a store need a goddamn manual on how to get what they advertise?
I'm a 'bad customer' if I don't go through your checklist to confirm that the retailer isn't lying to me about a new product? Zach, you are way out of bounds here. The instructions you give are how to buy a used product.
Don't talk down to people about what you think they should do to ensure a retailer is being honest. The onus for meeting what a retailer advertises is on the business, not the consumer. I'm saddened that you are a member of the ECA and have such a anti-consumer position on this, and I can only hope more people in the ECA don't share such a mindset.
Gamespot is being unethical at best and illegal at worst, there's no justifying it.
Those eight steps, depending on how many you actually have to perform, will take no longer than 2 minutes. Usually they can be done in conjunction with the time you spend checking out.
I am sorry that I am "talking down" to you and everyone else. I think all of you are over reacting and need to actually think about what is going on here. I am done trying to explain it to everyone as it looks like noone is listening to me.
AS for my standing with the ECA, I think I am fine. We are free to disagree with other member and even the organization. As of yet, the ECA has not made any position statement regarding this practice.
I don't feel that my opinion is in any way anti-consumer. Being a consumer is just as much work as it is to run a business. If you do not arm yourself with the tools and understanding you need to protect yourself from what you consider fraudulent activity, then you need to stop and think about what you are doing.
Complain all you want. I don't care. But don't tell me that my opinion is anti-consumer just because you disagree. Also don't question my standing with the ECA just because you don't agree with me.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
"Those eight steps, depending on how many you actually have to perform, will take no longer than 2 minutes."
Who cares how long it takes? Why should I be forced to do extra work to ensure I'm getting what I'm paying for? I'm paying for it.
"I am sorry that I am "talking down" to you and everyone else. I think all of you are over reacting and need to actually think about what is going on here. I am done trying to explain it to everyone as it looks like noone is listening to me."
It is possible to have a logical discussion and debate without resorting to dickish comments. I described my experience, and you responded by being a dick. What's your justification for your attitude?
I agree, it is important to arm yourself with tools and understanding to protect yourself from fraudulent businesses. Buying a 'new' product for the retail price that in fact been opened and/or used is not in the standard expectations of the consumer in the software business. I would say that is in fact, a fraudulent business practice.
"But don't tell me that my opinion is anti-consumer just because you disagree."
I said I thought your opinion was anti-consumer because I think it is, and I will tell you that (free speech, gotta love it). What you suggest flies in the face of standard expectations of the consumer, and there is a wealth of public opinion in the consumer base that disagrees with you. I refuse to allow or justify a retailer repacking a product after breaking security seals and selling the product as new at the full retail price. Why don't you?
"Also don't question my standing with the ECA just because you don't agree with me."
I question your standing with the ECA because you do not represent the best interests of the consumer in this case, and I'll continue to do so when I read as such. I have yet to hear any legal evidence backing up your position (and the majority disagree with you already), so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'd love to know why you believe this is OK, but I still haven't heard any justification that is not against the best interest of the consumer.
Why should I be forced to do extra work to ensure I'm getting what I'm paying for? I'm paying for it.
That is precisely why you should put in the extra work. It is your money. You want to spend it in the manner you deem worthy of your business. The store or other individual does not care about you, just your money. They want your money. You want something that is worth your money. They will do anything to get your money. You should do everything you can to protect your investment. It is your responsibility as a consumer to protect your money and investments not the retailers.
Buying a 'new' product for the retail price that in fact been opened and/or used is not in the standard expectations of the consumer in the software business.
I never said you had to buy something you suspect of being used for a new price. I said you need to make sure you are satisfied with the purchase and are confident you are getting what you paid for. I even presented a method that would guarantee that you are satisfied and confident. Then you attacked it as if it were acid being drop in your eyes.
I refuse to allow or justify a retailer repacking a product after breaking security seals and selling the product as new at the full retail price. Why don't you?
I refuse to buy anything that I am not satisfied with or confident that it is the best investment for my money. If I cannot get a satisfactory result using the methods described above, I do not make the purchase.
Also, just because the factory seal is broken does not make it any less new. As long as the disk and manual are free from damage, I would be confident paying the full retail price if need be. If I want a used game, I will buy a used game. If I want a new game, I will buy a new game. If that new game is a gutted display copy, that is fine with me as long as the manual and disk are free from damage. If I can get a discount using the steps I outlined, all the better.
I'd love to know why you believe this is OK, but I still haven't heard any justification that is not against the best interest of the consumer.
Gutting the display cases prevents theft. Preventing theft keeps prices from going up. Keeping prices from going up benefits the consumer because they will not have to spend more of their money.
Allowing employees to borrow games allows them to gain an understanding of the games they sell. Better informed employees will help customers make more informed decisions. The more information the consumer has, the more consfident and satisfied they are in the purchase.
While I don't neccessarily agree that repackaging those games that have been borrowed and selling them as new is a good practice, I don't think it is anything that truly deserves the kind of reaction that is being shown here. There are plenty of ways to protect yourself from them, foremost is the ability to shop elsewhere.
Is that a good enough reason?
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
That is precisely why you should put in the extra work. It is your money. You want to spend it in the manner you deem worthy of your business. The store or other individual does not care about you, just your money. They want your money. You want something that is worth your money. They will do anything to get your money. You should do everything you can to protect your investment. It is your responsibility as a consumer to protect your money and investments not the retailers.
I absolutely agree - but rather than follow the process you defined, I prefer to do business with what I deem to be a reputable business. The beauty of a competitive market is that I don't have to have anything to do with GS - there are plenty of other retailers that don't engage in what I call 'shady' practices such as this.
I never said you had to buy something you suspect of being used for a new price. I said you need to make sure you are satisfied with the purchase and are confident you are getting what you paid for. I even presented a method that would guarantee that you are satisfied and confident. Then you attacked it as if it were acid being drop in your eyes.
Again I agree - but I'd already mentioned in the initial post that I choose to instead do business with someone else. I'm not interested in how to deal with Gamespot's practices...I just refuse to engage them for new sales. For used game sales the items you mentioned are right on the money.
I think we just differ on opinion of what is acceptably 'new' - and this is a much more civil way to discuss it in my opinion. "New" to me means never opened regardless of condition, and there are many retailers willing to meet that bar - I think Gamespot is in the minority in that they don't.
If a consumer is OK with a new product being opened, then there's no problem...but the question remains: Is Gamespot telling the customer that? I think the answer is no here, and in my opinion that goes against expectations. The knowledgable consumer might be able to tell in most cases - but my wife in the instance above couldn't.
It really boils down to whether or not Gamespot is clearly messaging their practices, and if the consumer base has the chance to agree/disagree once that information is public. Based on the experience my wife had, and what I'm reading here about their practices...I don't agree, so I'll go elsewhere. I hope the grandmother/mother buying a game for their grandson/son gets the same information, because I don't assume they would be OK with getting an opened product for full retail price. Maybe they are, but I assume that they aren't.
I agree. If you do not like GS's practices, you are well within your right to shop elsewhere. Never said you or anyone else had to shop there.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
Go to a bookstore...buy a book that has never been opened or possibly read by someone that was in the store earlier. Good luck.
Go buy a car, brand new, and notice you can't get one with an odometer that reads all zeroes. Request to test drive said car and then ask afterwards if you can have it at a used cost and see what happens.
And why do so many people assume that EVERYONE that works in a GameStop have to be a "thief" or "crook"? Makes as much sense as me labeling everyone here as being just as bad as ole Jack because he comes here and rants too. Come to the store I am at...see if we are criminals. And then ask yourself this...if you treat someone badly...don't be surprised if they treat you badly back. Come to my house and act like a whiney brat...and I will ask you to leave. Come into a store, and treat everyone like dumb cattle that is trying to rip you off, and everyone will want as little to do with you and wait for you to go. Every tree has bad apples, but that doesn't mean you try and cut the whole tree down because of them. You pick them out and keep an eye on it. So many want to attack Gamestop without ever even having a bad experience of their own...they just want in on the attack on the big guy. But you will still quietly line up when a game comes out just to pick it up. You can go to Wal-Mart...good luck getting to even see the back of the box before checkout. The people usually don't know jack about the games and are not even from that department. They just have a key and hand it over.
I can't talk about every employee, just as I can't talk about every person that reads or responds here. But I know better than to take one person or incident to badmouth them all. There have been stories where I haven't agreed with Dennis...and that's fine. I appreciate all sides of a story as long as everyone is civil enough to talk about it. I'm being open about what I do as a part time job along with working as a Navy Contractor, and I am aware I will be flamed for even admitting it. But if you come into my store, I will do what I can to answer any and all questions honestly. I prefer to sell new over used, but will not "look down" on someone for getting the used because they save a few bucks. Do I personally agree that we should be able to check out new games. Not really. Have I...yes. I wanted to get an opinion of a game when it came out so that I could give a well thought out and descriptive explanation about a games mechanics, playstyle, graphics, and content. I bet you would appreciate that if you were going to buy something like Kane and Lynch or Sonic the Hedgehog. But I'm also lucky enough to be stable and well paid so I can have a game collection that requires it's own room and numbers damn near in the thousands of games. Hell I even have a Double Dragon arcade machine in the dining room that my wife got me for an anniversary present one year. So I'm just as much a gamer as any of you.
And give Zach a break. He deserves his say just like you do. He's always been cool about everything and over time I have come to find his point of view to be insightful and respectful. Please return the favor.
And about the people saying the PC games were checked out and you were "screwed over" by Gamestop...I'm calling BULLSHIT (sorry for the language Dennis) on that one. No one is able to check out PC games, especially because of registration keys, DRM, and other things that everybody complains about anyways.
I'm sorry for such a disjointed and frustrated argument..but I have been getting tired of people writing off Gamestop like it's the freaking destruction of the game industry. It gets old when all you hear is the bad, and nothing about the charity work we do, or the good ones of us that are out there that really DO want the best for gamers. I give out my xbox live gamertag or PSN title when I can just so some people have someone to play with online. I've met people that I eventually deleted because we didn't get along...and I've met people that I have been playing with since they get a system. Remember that when you put them all down...your putting down some of your fellow games too.
Jeremy Powers
Panama City, Fl.
Zenspath.com
Xbox Live: Zen of the Dark
PSN: Zenspath
I never meant to imply that I think Gamestop employees are thieves/criminals - I don't. I think the practices employed at the Gamestop stores that I have personally visited (which seem to be chain-wide) are shady at best. Does that mean shenanigans are taking place? Not necessarily, but shady is enough to get me to go somewhere else.
I respect your opinion Zen, but I don't buy your reasoning for checking out games and selling them new for even a second - and I don't appreciate it. I do think it is outstanding that you want to be up on current games to provide advice to those that might ask, but not when that entails using a product that someone will later be buying at full price. This is what reviews are for - and game reviewers get pre-release copies of the games for only their usage to this effect. You're not a game reviewer. If you want to borrow a copy of the game to give your customers your opinion, buy the product yourself or use a used copy.
No disrespect intended, but were I to go into a Gamestop the only help I need is in exchanging my money for the game. We don't even need to talk to complete the transaction. While this may seem unfriendly and rude...it's a retail shop...I go in to grab a product and get out. I'm not sure how else I can put it, and I apologize if you think that's rude. I am absolutely certain there are customers that would appreciate attentive and knowledgable employees...but again, buy the game yourself. NO customer would appreciate you using the thing they're purchasing without telling them.
Please [everyone], don't give any more analogies about cars or any other industry and how it's ok for them. We're talking about games here - Software. There are expectations already around buying and selling software, and this practice just. doesn't. fly. You can't sell an opened software title as new...you just can't. If retailers refuse to accept returns of software when it's been opened, why in the world would they find it ok to sell opened software for full price? That's just absurd!
I know it's not the problem of the individual employee of Gamestop - it is the practices of the larger entity that are being discussed here. While I do not assume GS employees are thieves, I also don't assume they're saints. In the end it doesn't matter, I expect to buy an unopened copy when I buy a new game - if GS can't support that, then they can't, and they should not be the place people go to to meet this expectation.
Hooooly crap, you people could write dissertations with the insane amount of cyberspace you're using.
"HEY! LISTEN!"
Healthy discourse is a good thing
. One line comments or OMGWTFBBQ?!?! are not generally thought provoking.
This is why I'm trying to get a podcast going...takes to damn long to type all of this sometimes lol.
Zen aka Jeremy Powers
Panama City, Fl.
Xbox Live Gamertag: Zen of the Dark
PSN: Zenspath
I may not be a game reviewer on a large scale...but I do review games. I also write articles, report the news, and compose editorials for the people I know and talk to, as well as my own site that I have been working on for awhile. Hell, I'm even starting to get the equipement and people together for podcasting because I feel strongly enough about this industry and it's people that I can hold good, multi-sided conversations about the games and going-ons industry wide. If people want to hear my voice and others talking about this, great...if not, no sleep lost on me.
I know you didn't say the thief comment and that it was in regards to someone elses comment that went into this rant, but I still don't like it.
That's great that you can go into somewhere and know exactly what you want, but I go there to talk to the gamers. Great that I can help people that need it, but we can talk to eachother you know. What is the fun of going somewhere and missing the chance to connect with more of the gamer community? This site is great, but we still need to actually see and talk to eachother sometimes. That why I hold a monthly LAN party at my house on my dime to get everyone together face to face. I treat my job like the old record stores. You come in for suggestions, to pick up what you want, to talk shop, and to hear more about what is going on. If you wish to keep it sterile, that's your call...but I think you are missing out on a good bit of camaraderie that could be made with people in the store. Like I said, we're all gamers, and we should be getting together instead of staying apart.
And when I check a game out, it usually is a used copy that I get. I don't normally like to check out a new game unless I am picking it up a few days early before I buy it.
Jeremy Power aka Zen
www.ZensPath.com
Zen@Zenspath.com
Xbox Live Gamertag: Zen of the Dark
PSN Name: Zenspath
Ok, now try looking at this from the perspective of someone who doesn't know games... like the non-gamer that will want to buy a game for a gamer friend/family member. a very common type of customer.
These are people who would not know of many of the subtle aspects of the trade such as factor seals, suspicious looking seals, or what not... these are people that go into the store trusting they are gonna buy an honest product. As such they are too oblivious to actually even think to go through that check list.
So what happens when they end up getting a game that their gamer relative does not want but the seal has apparently already been broken... or what happens when they open the product to find that the disk has been scratched or has any other kind of noticeable wear. Because the seal is broken you can no longer return the game and you stuck with it.
What a rude and opinionated comment. The point is that it's not a 'New' game. It doesn't matter if the disc is in new condition, if the seal is broken it's a used or 'opened' product and retailers typically have to tell you as such. This is where terms such as "like new" or "display model" come from.
You don't buy peanut butter with the seal broken do you? What if it's just a "display" jar and the peanut butter is fine? Will you buy it then?
Security seals exist for a reason - to show that the product has not been opened. If it has, a retailer cannot claim it's a "new" product - which is exactly what Gamespot seems to be doing (at least in my case).
"I am providing support for the understandable practice of gutting display copies and still selling them as new. "
Which is exactly the point: That is not an understandable practice - that's illegal. You have to typically label such products as "opened" or "display model" or "like new". You can't claim it's new when it's been opened.
Did you even read any of my comments or are you just jumping on the bandwagon with every othe rperson that is attacking me because I don't agree with them?
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
"Or it could be that it was a new opened box shelf copy that they cleared off the shelf, put the unplayed game disk back in the box and then shrink wrapped it. Ever thought of that?"
That comment? Yeah, I read that and responded to it. I don't think I have to read every one of your posts in this thread to respond to a post you made about mine.
Knock off the attitude man, I'm not attacking you. As you can clearly see above, you attacked me.
I think you're opinion is wrong. Would you like to have a calm debate about it, or just make asinine comments like the above?
No, I did not attack you. I presented an alternate case to what you proposed. You automatically assumed that the game was used in some way. I proposed that the game was a resealed display copy. How is that attacking you?
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
I inferred your attack from your attitude in the post - much the same way I imagine you are inferring attacks against you. "Ever thought of that?"
Yes, the game could absolutely have been an opened box display copy. My point is that there is no difference to me. If the seal is broken, it's not new, and I shouldn't be charged $60 for it.
I have no way of knowing the history of the game prior to it entering my hands - which is what the seal is there to guarantee (that no one else has opened it).
Why do you insist on putting the onus of dealing with a possibly misrepresented item onto the consumer? Do you have some reason or motivation to defend GameStop for poor business practices. I for one will NEVER buy anything from a gamestop, too much underhanded BS has either happened to me there or to my friends.
Doesn't ECA stand for Entertainment CONSUMERS Association? Why don't you get behind the consumers and condem such practices as selling used games/open box as new? Even if it is open box people need to know, I work at a computer repair shop and I can tell you when I get a product that was labelled as new and find out that it is an open box or used I get pissed and call up the supplier. They always know they did something wrong too, and since we tend to only keep suppliers we trust they always try and make it right.
So please don't sit there and act like it is ok that a company sold an open box as new. That is just as wrong as selling a used game as new.
A lot of you have said that you don't shop at GameStop for one reason or another. I only have one question, if they changed their policies to fit whatever problem, imaginary or real, would you shop at their stores again?
For all of you going I don't see what the big deal is, here's where I stand. I buy a brand new copy of a game -BRAND NEW- Open it, play it, see that it sucks take it back to the store...they don't give me my money back for that purchase, they give me what the game is worth in trade in which is usually about 10 bucks less then what I just paid for it 5 minutes ago...that game doesn't go back up as new either...it goes on the used shelf because it's been -USED-. So why shouldn't they start giving me my money back in full for these "new" games I keep bringing in, when their own employees can do that at no cost and then -I- have to buy their used game as new...it's really a bullshit thing.
This oh it's still new thing doesn't take into account that all games are concidered -USED- the moment their opened so really technically you're paying full price for -USED- copies of a game which can't be legal...
Stop the presses! I haven't known about this for years at all! [No offense, Dennis ;)]
www.gameslaw.net
That was reported by a former GameStop employee on YouTube. This is him. http://www.youtube.com/user/LeisureSuitGaming
When Jack Thompson runs his mouth, does anyone really care what he has to say anymore?
tbh I've known about this for quite a while too. But here's a little story for anyone wanting more reasons to hate gamestop.
A few years back I pre-ordered a game at a gamestop. the person at the counter said I had 5 days after the release date to pick it up.
I came back 2 days after(earliest I could get there) and a different person was there, who said he sold the last copy they had since I didn't pick it up on the first day, and he wouldn't give me back the money I had given them to RESERVE my game. When I told him what they told me when I reserved it, he started to sound like he was getting mad, so I just didn't bother. I went to another gamestop in the same mall (they also had an EB games) and they still had a copy there.
It was then that I joined the ranks of the gamestop haters.
If I am charged for a "new" game, I expect it to be new, not "new if you ignore the fact 5 employees spent the last two weeks playing it." If I wanted a used game, I would go over to the used game section and buy one of those.
Its that simple.
I find it funny that people are willing to bring up the car argument here but when trying to use that same arguement in favor of selling used games people say it's not the same.
Also Gamecrazy and the former Rhino Games did this all the time yet they are not being punished for it? It just seems like more to hate the top dog for, if you don't like it go shop at your Gamers Traders or whatever the hell they want to call themselves they are one and only one store and pose no real threat to Gamestop.
The use of car sales as a comparison is due to the fact that it is far more common and anticipated than anything else. While you may find display items such as TVs, stereos, DVD players, or even lesser items such as cookery, out on shelves, and some items, like the TVs, stereos, and such being on and used for display, you usually don't hear about those items being taken and used for the private use of employees. But then, you don't really know that it ISN'T happening, do you? Yet, customers, having found that there are no unsealed, unboxed items, will ask if they can buy the "display item" (which isn't marked as such yet you KNOW that's what it is).
In some cases, instead of picking up an actual unboxed item, you actually pick up a ticket and take it to the counter and they go back to get the item. How do you know for absolute certainty that that item hasn't been used if it isn't obvious?
Still, just as with picking up an empty box from the shelf and handing it to the employee to fill, if you purchase a car off the lot, even a new one, there is no absolute certainty that an employee hasn't used it once or twice. Unless it's obvious or they tell you. Otherwise, you'd have to say "I want a factory fresh one, not the one you have on the lot."
That's why the car analogy is so close to a comparison.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl
Gamecrazy is already on my shit list anyways, I definately don't buy from those jerks. First they pretty much steal the game I traded in because they swore it was in the machine, refused to give me my game back, and refused to give me a reciept because they swore it was in there and that they didn't need to (that really pissed me off and hey guess what it wasn't in there -_- and our cops pretty much tell you to go jump in a friggan lake...) then my mom decides she wants to get me a new DS I told her -not- to buy from them but she did it anyways...and at the time on the back of the reciept it said 7 days to exchange if it was faulty. She got it for me because I'd just gotten over chicken pox that she gave me from her shingles, and the day I got over that I got the stupid flu, so when I tried to use the wifi on it, no go kept getting this odd error so I took it into them the next day even though I wasn't in any condition to be outta bed, said to the guy "The wifi doesn't work..." And he pulled out another DS did the Infer red whatever thing and went "They connected theres nothing wrong with the wifi...and anyways gamecrazy policy is you have to send it to nintendo so I can't help you." I darn near pulled the guy over the counter cuz of his smug attitude, but I was sick so I just kept my hands on the display case so I wouldn't fall down and let that little jerk know that I knew what the hell Wifi was and that checking the infer red junk wasn't the friggan Wifi and he ought to darn well know it since he was younger then me! And then I turned the reciept over and told him "Read it...out loud...and you keep it right there you just read it..." and he read it and was all "I could lose my job for honoring this...it's not our policy..." eventually he finally brought one outta the back and exchanged it but to get it done I had to tell the guy that he'd lose a lot more then his job if he didn't cuz that right there was legal binding and if they didn't honor the back of the receipt I'd make sure that Game Crazy got closed faster then the speed of light. (which the BBB did say it was illegal not to honor it, they have to honor whats on the back of the receipt period no ifs ands or buts)
So personally I think all groups like Gamestop and Game Crazy are worthless, only group that's been worth anything is Game Rush in our town, they treat me real good there specially since my town's small enough word gets around, and not to many don't know the stuff GC pulled on me and my mother.
Interesting. Someone actually mentioned "display model".
Many of the display models of TVs, VCRs, DVDs, stereos, and many other items, electronic and even not electronic, don't actually SAY display model on them. You know if you're buying the item sitting out or take an empty box to the counter, you're getting something that's been opened. Whether it's used or not. And how do you KNOW the item hasn't been used unless you ask? And if you're buying an item whose box has been opened, then it seems fairly straight forward that you either ask if it's been used, in which case the answer is either true or a lie, no matter what the answer is, OR you specifically ask for a factory sealed copy. "Sorry, we don't have any in stock." Oh well, either ask them to call one of the other locations, buy somewhere else, or buy what they have (or don't buy at all).
This pertains to ANYTHING that you buy "open box". How do you know if it's "open box"? Duh!
Perhaps I've just become more used to buying used anyway to be not as bothered.
And, how often do you get a discount for a "display item"? Not always, though it's possible. It is, in fact possible.
Now, I'd probably be a little more upset if the item appeared factory sealed and damaged to an unplayable level. But beyond that, I just don't sweat it a great deal.
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl
I think people are so upset about the fact that the retailer acts like it's completely new. Every display model of something I've encountered carried a discount with it. If the display copies of the games were $5 off or something, I don't think people would object as much. I can see both sides of this issue, and I really don't know why everyone's sitting around flaming eachother when they could be researching different places to shop or just going about their usual business.
www.gameslaw.net
True, the whole 'display model' thing is not written in stone, though most businesses I've seen will honor a discount in that case (unless the item is in high demand).
I imagine most peoples' position on this revolves around whether or not they purchase used games. I don't, so I expect something new to be unopened - or expressely messaged as 'opened' if it has been. Buying something "new" to me means that I get a fresh, unopened product that's never been used - that's the "right" that I pay the $60 price tag for.
In the case of opening the box and still selling as new - yes, the game could be fine regardless. But it's a tiny, tiny leap from selling opened (mint) products as new for full retail price and selling opened (used) products for full retail price also. If gamespot is guilty of the former, then yes, I also assume they are guilty of the latter - something that I as a consumer am (obviously) vehemently against. That's a slippery slope that will never end well for the consumer in my opinion.
Why would I put faith in gamespot if they don't explicitly disclose that their new games are opened? Moreover, why would I trust a coorporation? Their main goal is to make money - not make the customer feel good.
[More just posing those questions than asking you specifically nightwng :)]
It's very difficult for me to put my "faith" in anything or anyone. That's a big amount of trust to hand over. Long term patronage is required. If I've patroned a business long enough, gotten to know their employees fairly decently, then "faith" comes into play.
That being said, it's still just a matter of individual preference. A person who spends a lot of time working the used item marketplace tends to be a little more savvy about what they are purchasing, even if it's expected to be "new". Even "new" products get the once over. And if you buy at cheap stores, such as "Dollar General", "Dollar Tree", or "Family Dollar", you know what you'll find with a lot of new stuff. Beat up boxes, even mildly imperfect items. No matter how "new" they may be.
But there are those folks who just like the "pristine" purchase. That's really not a "bad" thing. There's nothing wrong with limiting one's self to the best products available in the best condition. Many folks don't buy used. Nothing wrong with that either. I, and many others, are just looking at it from the aspect of those who don't hold that same philosophy.
It's the same when it comes to the difference between shoppers who spend hours looking up reviews, comparing prices, and looking for every piece of detail on every item they purchase versus the shopper who just goes into a store, looks for the best looking item, then buys it. Just different philosophies.
And a lifetime of that philosophy will make you look at the other kind of shopper and go "Bwha??"
Nightwng2000
NW2K Software
Nightwng2000 has also updated his MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/nightwing2000 Nightwng2000 is now admin to the group "Parents For Education, Not Legislation" on MySpace as http://groups.myspace.com/pfenl
Yeah I won't even buy a used game unless it has a good case (or at least insert art since I have a stockpile of different system cases from friends), the instruction manual, and the disc is damn near perfect. But 20 mins after I buy the game, new or used, I'm just opening it and using it anyways.
Zen aka Jeremy Powers
Panama City, Fl.
What do you expect? They specialize in console gaming.
I will not buy securom games. http://www.wolvenmoon.com/sharedfiles/message1.jpg and http://www.wolvenmoon.com/sharedfiles/message2.jpg
This isn't a new practice, people. Other companies do this, too.
"HEY! LISTEN!"
I was going to say something similar, if it hasn't already been said here on this thread, but:
Yes, this really isn't anything new. Everytime I buy something, I check every inch of it for scratches or any other kind of anomolies, ESPECIALLY with optical discs. If there is a hair line scratch I immediately return it. I don't put up with that shit.
It may seem like a hassle, but I just want to make sure I'm paying 50-60 bucks for a clean product to where the optic laser in the drive won't have to interpret as much to see which is a 1 or a 0 on the disc.
Over kill? Maybe. But I'm giving them business and I want to be satisified with the product I'm buying.
In fact, I believe every retailer/distributor does it. I know Amazon and Newegg do it. And don't get me started with things on eBay/Amazon Market Place. They simply "reshrink" the product to deceive customers to thinking it is new. I guess it works most of the time because it's not an unusual practice.
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"Because this town is under the stranglehold of a few tight eyed Tree Huggers who would rather play Hacky Sack than lock up the homeless" -- Birch Barlow
Excellent. We all knew there was something foul with the opened "new" game boxes. Time to do something about it. Down with Gamestop!
On one hand, I couldn't care less if an employee has taken a game home for a few days before I buy it as "new", provided the disc is undamaged and nothing is missing.
However. I do have two problems with this practice (and these are part of the reason I don't shop at Gamestops).
1) While unlikely, an already opened "new" game carries the risk of missing, switched, or damaged discs and manuals - whether through misuse, malice, or simple human error. There is certainly something to be said for the argument that "you just need to open it to check", but that brings me to...
2) Trust. If I buy a game at - say - Wal-mart, I can take it home and open it at my leisure, confident that it will contain what I paid for, new and undamaged. I can't do that at Gamestop. Compounding matters is passing off the employee-used games as "new", when it would perhaps be more ethical to label them as "Like New" or "Employee Use Only", etc. As others have no doubt pointed out, and I mentioned earlier - yes, you can open the game to double check. But that action betrays a lack of confidence and trust in the retailer.
Simply put, I don't do business with someone I don't trust. It's not a loss, I can buy my games somewhere else - which is why I have a really hard time getting worked up about anything Gamestop does. There are other options.
That's a really good point. Plus, half the time, GameStop is more expensive than other retailers.
But your argument only targets a particular audience: The Mainstream audience. Meaning where the option to shop somewhere else in a world where the game is still in-print. A collector may have a harder time finding a legit "new" copy of a game that has been out of print for not even a year from a major retailer because of the reshrinking issue. But then again, this may be off topic. But it is relevant to what GameStop is doing.
Since you mentioned people are actually buying "new" opened box games, I have only one question for them: Why?
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"Because this town is under the stranglehold of a few tight eyed Tree Huggers who would rather play Hacky Sack than lock up the homeless" -- Birch Barlow
You guys are incredibly interesting. Gamestop always is getting shit for either being incompetant or now their lending policy.
Let's say employees weren't allowed to check out games. Then you guys would be bitching that they don't know everything about every single game that you want an opinion on. We all know that they get paid like shit, and they're not going to be using their money to buy games so that they can tell the customers about it.
Also remember that Gamestop is a huge company right now. You're going to run into some really poorly run stores, and some really great stores. That's the same thing with EVERY single large company. Even your local grocery store. There are bad ones and there are really good ones.
Now, if you're a hardcore collector and want that game shrinkwrapped, then just pick it up the day it comes out (if you're the said hardcore collector then you'll be doing so anyway). Especially if you preordered it (they don't open the preorders until after the 48 hours)
Also, the company policy is that you can't "check out" new released games. So for all you guys saying that you bought it the day it came out and it was played, you just have a really bad gamestop store. Trust me though, not every single store is like there. There are some really good ones and some really bad ones, kind of like every single corporate company on the face of the planet.
Let's take a look at the new game return policy. If that wasn't there, then people would simply take the game home, play it and beat it, bring it back and either get a new one or purchase a night with their usual 50 year old prostitute.
My local Gamestop is excellent. Every person in there knows just about everything about every game in there, and are always able to give an opinion on them. Try going to Wal-mart and asking them how to get a browser on the new DSi, and they'll probably look at you, snaggle-tooth hanging out and glassy-eyed with a "DER" expression on their face.
If you're a hardcore collector who pisses himself because the game has been opened, then preorder it (Omg five dollars you're already going to pay later on) and they don't open it until the 48 hours are up.
Gamestop is a kind of company that's there for the knowledge of gaming, something that is hard to come by with Best Buy and especially Wal-Mart.
Just don't bitch when you buy that shrink-wrapped copy of Vampire Rain or Two Worlds from Wal-mart, and then get pissed when the game sucks and you just wasted 60 bucks on it because no employee had the brains to say "Dude don't buy that game it blows chunks" because guess what. They don't know.