ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

April 30, 2009 -

Those pesky Canadians have finally pushed the U.S. Government to the brink.

If the Bushies were still in power we might now be glued to CNN, watching the 82nd Airborne para-dropping into Ottawa. But as it is, the Obama administration has settled for delivering a nasty slap via the office of U.S. Trade Representative Ron Kirk (left).

The issue is copyright protection and the USTR, a cabinet-level post, has been making unpleasant noises in Canada's direction for several years. Today Kirk dropped the hammer, placing Canada on the "Priority Watch List" along with China, Russia, Algeria, Argentina, Chile, India, Indonesia, Israel, Pakistan, Thailand, and Venezuela. From the USTR report:

Canada is being elevated to the Priority Watch List for the first time, reflecting increasing concern about the continuing need for copyright reform, as well as continuing concern about weak border enforcement.

The Entertainment Software Association, which lobbies on behalf of U.S. video game publishers, was quick to applaud the action in a press release. No surprise there, as the ESA has been pushing hard in recent years for Canada to outlaw mod chips and adopt its own version of the consumer-unfriendly Digital Millenium Copyright Act.

In fact, with DMCA-like legislation an issue that Canada's Parliament will soon be considering, a cynic might be forgiven for thinking that the USTR's action was timed for its persuasive value as much as anything else.

Of today's announcement, ESA CEO Michael Gallagher commented:

Putting Canada on the ‘Priority Watch List’ is a signal of the Obama Administration’s commitment to strengthening global intellectual property protection, and its intent to address this issue firmly with the Canadian government. Canada’s weak laws and enforcement practices foster game piracy in the Canadian market and pave the way for unlawful imports into the U.S.

So what does the ESA want from Canada? They have a laundry list:

  • Enact legislation outlawing game circumvention devices, such as “mod chips” and “game copiers,” in line with Canada’s international treaty obligations
  • Create adequate legal incentives for internet service providers (ISPs) to work with copyright owners in combating online piracy
  • Provide Customs officials with adequate authority to make ex officio seizures of counterfeit and pirate product at the border; and,
  • Provide adequate resources to anti-piracy enforcement efforts and make prosecution of intellectual property crimes a high priority.

Comments

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Well I was just sent a very nice email this morning from my ISP (rogers Cable) asking me to stop distributing software and at the bottom was the letter to them from the ESA...I was downloading the new PSP game Rockband and because of my download/upload on my torrent I was asked to stop...LMAO.  Well here's a big ole FU to the ESA and you can lick me where the good lord split me! (_x_)

Here's the portion from the ESA....

ISP: Rogers Cable Communications Inc.
 ESA Reference Number: ***-********
 
 
 Dear Rogers Cable Communications Inc.:
 
 The Entertainment Software Association (ESA) is a trade association that represents the intellectual property interests of numerous companies that publish interactive games for video game consoles, personal computers, handheld devices and the Internet in the United States of America, in Canada, and in other countries (collectively referred to as ESA members).  ESA is authorized to act on behalf of ESA members whose copyright and other intellectual property rights it believes to be infringed as described herein.
 
 ESA is providing this letter of notification to make Rogers Cable Communications Inc. aware of material on its network or system that infringes the exclusive copyright rights of and is unlawful towards one or more ESA members.
 
 ESA members are entitled to the full protection of Canadian intellectual property laws, including the Copyright Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. C-42, as amended, in such entertainment software products.  
 
 Based on the information at its disposal on 3 Jun 2009 02:06:26 GMT, ESA has a good faith belief that **.***.***.** infringes the rights of one or more ESA members by offering for sale or download unauthorized copies of game products protected by copyright, or offering for sale or download material that is the subject of infringing activities.  The copyrighted works that have been infringed include but are not limited to:
 
 Title: Rock Band
 Notice ID: ********
 Infringement Source: BitTorrent
 Infringement Timestamp: **/**/****,  **:**:** GMT  Infringement Last Documented: **/**/****, **:**:** GMT  Infringer Username:
 Infringing Filename: PSP.Game.RockBandUnplugged.Multi2.UMDFULL.WwW.fantastico.CL
 Infringing Filesize: 919107283
 Infringer IP Address: **.***.***.**
 Infringer DNS Name: ___****_***__**-__*****_***__.***.***.cable.rogers.com
 Infringer Port ID: *****
 
 
 The unauthorized copies of such game product(s) or the material that is the subject of infringing activities appears on or is made available through **.***.***.**.  Those items are listed and/or identified thereon by their titles or variations thereof, game-related listings/references/descriptions, or depictions of game-related artwork.  Such copies, titles, game-related listings/references/descriptions, depictions, and material that is the subject of infringing activities, are hereinafter referred to as "Infringing Material."  
 
 Accordingly, ESA hereby requests Rogers Cable Communications Inc. to immediately do the following:
 
 1.    Notify the account holder of the Infringing Material.
 2.     Remove, or disable access to, the Infringing Material detailed above.
 3.     Take appropriate action against the account holder under your Abuse Policy/Terms of Service Agreement, including termination of a repeat offender.
 
 Please inform us whether you will remove or disable access to the Infringing Material as requested.  Rogers Cable Communications Inc. or the account holder may contact ESA at the above-listed contact details, with email preferred.  Please include the above-noted Reference Number in the subject line of all email correspondence.
 
 Thank you for your cooperation and prompt response in this matter.
 
 Sincerely,
 
 Intellectual Property Enforcement
 Entertainment Software Association

 

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Never thought I'd say this, as I'm a U.S. citizen, but KICK THEIR ASSES CANADA!

 

I will not buy securom games. http://www.wolvenmoon.com/sharedfiles/message1.jpg and http://www.wolvenmoon.com/sharedfiles/message2.jpg

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

And I'm proud to be an american, where at least I know I'm not free.  And I've done forgot the men who went and died, and tried to give those rights to me.  And I'll gladly stand up, and be told what to do.  Cause there ain't no doubt, they love that money, God help the USA.

 

Proud member of the USA (most of it anyways).

---

I once had a dream about God. In it, he was looking down upon the planet and the havoc we recked and he said unto us, "Damn Kids get off my lawn!"

I once had a dream about God. In it, he was looking down upon the planet and the havoc we recked and he said unto us, "Damn Kids get off my lawn!"

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

So much for change. And of course after this the harper government is going to do the WRONG thing and piss off everyone in the country. We dont need no stinking draconian copywrite laws!

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

PLEASE, SOMEBODY THINK OF THE PIRATES!!!

Fucking whiners.

-- teh moominz --

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Silly ESA isn't used to dealing with countries where the consumer has rights and where voter opinion is more important than Corporate opinion ;)

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Yeah okay. If you want to say you think Canada needs to implement stronger anti-piracy laws, that's at least a reasonable statment to make. I adamantly disagree that the heavy handed way the US handes it is effecitve and fair to consumers but if you disagree, then fine. However,

"placing Canada on the 'Priority Watch List' along with China, Russia, Algeria, Argentina, Chile, India, Indonesia, Israel, Pakistan, Thailand, and Venezuela."

So because we have somewhat looser laws we're now comparable to China, Russia, and other contries where piracy runs rampant and unchecked? Yeah, there goes any degree of credibility you might have had.

As for the border enforcement, all I can say is: Better get working on that fence then. (Maybe you can get all those illegal immigrants from Mexico to build it).

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Ah my country is an easy target. Seems Obama administration is already leaving Canada high and dry...the policy of "buying American" and leaving their northern neighbours behind. Nothing like a kick in the balls while we are down. Nothing like the spirit of NAFTA (which has been ENDLESSLY violated) to bring a sense of brotherhood and family between the two nations....

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Its also nice to see Chrysler come begging Ontario and the Canadian Federal Government for cash, and then the Obama admin working hard to keep chrysler plants running within US borders, all while chrislyer trying to play nice with Canada...

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Typical American policy, try to put blame on others and fuck around outside their borders, instead of looking within to fix the real problems.

Every major study around shows that piracy generation within the US is on a completely different level then it is in Canada and the rest of the world.  Where do you think all those DVD Screeners come from?  Those leaked copies of games weeks before launch, last I checked, we don't have many pressing companies or places that get demonstration copies.  Most leaked content happens during production, or while its pimped around to reviewers and executives, 99.9999% of the time NOT within Canadian borders.

Instead of slapping canadians who download these leaked software (Pretty much as easily as an American can), why not stop them at the source?  A Pirate will rarely buy software whether they can get it or not. 

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

all i can say to this is ESA keep the frack out of my country!  i just hope (though its a long long long shot) that the government here tells the US to f*ck off, chances are though we're going to see this sort of legislation pass though 'cause the current government is full of conservative whack-job air heads

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Whinewhinewhine shut up already.

And why is Australia not on that list, where modchips were declared legal by the courts? Is there any reason they have the balls to go after Canada but not Australia?

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Oh no! Rofl. I love when people do stuff like this thinking anyone in this country gives a shit. Get over yourself ESA.

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

All together now!

*Readies musical baton.*

Blame Canada!  Blame Canada!

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

 How about proving that this kind of legislation actually works before trying to force it down your allies' throats, America?

 

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

This is why the world hates you, America.

(The rich parts of it atleast, the poor parts hates you for different, though not entirely unrelated, reasons)

 

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

These industry trade groups drive me nuts.  Canada refuses to pass a DMCA-like piece of legislation that erodes consumer freedoms and rights in order to protect the obsolete business models of greedy media corporations and that automatically makes us a haven for pirates that needs to be watched closely?  Puh-lease!  I love how being a nation that doesn't let corporations completely control the government and populace automatically makes you a threat these days.  Oh well, we will see who has the last laugh when Hollywood and the music industry are bankrupt and wondering where all their consumers went.

Parallax Abstraction
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
blog.digital-lifeline.ca

Parallax Abstraction
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

I don't think any of us Canadians really cares that the American government has some issues with us. To be honest, we don't like the way American corporations or government do business here. Getting bullied into cooperation is not my idea of a good time. But whatever, this isn't going to do anything but create more animosity where more really isn't needed.

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

My problem with DRM was ummed up in an experience earlier today. Having purchased an album on itunes, I wanted to give it to my girlfriend so she could play it on her computer. Of course it wouldn't let me convert those tracks into a different format, wouldnt let her computer play them, and wouldnt let her upload them onto her MP3 player.

 

I PAID for this music once already, I'm not paying AGAIN just so I can use it in the way I want to. So I torrented an MP3 copy of it, and now I can do everything I want. Your loss Music Industry.

 

Check out my blog - http://serveratcapacity.blogspot.com

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

 I can't blame USA for watching us, our laws in this regard are so superior and more consumer-friendly.

I'd say watch and learn, but it seems late for that. Enjoy watching, though!

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

I Support Piracy.

----------------------------------

"Don't Run, You'll Just Die Tired."

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Hopefully Canada tells the ESA where to stick it.

Why doesn't the ESA just come out and admit that they're as brutal and dictatorial as the RIAA and MPAA, and how they don't want consumers to have *any* rights? Because that's the end result they seek.

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Once again, America tries to impose its rule outside of its borders...

 

So much for change.

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

"Change" was never more than a lie to get votes, anyway. Democrats, Republicans, all run by the same business interests anyway. You people should have supported Ron Paul.

And if only we had our own version of him up here in Canada! Our politicians are the same scheming bastards that you guys have, just with different parties and colours. And given how much our PM Harper loves to [redacted] American [redacted], I'm sure this will only double his party's efforts to shaft all of us up here.

But yeah, you Yanks need to be more proactive in telling your government to stop screwing around with everyone else. Feel free to learn from us on that, by the way... We seem to be able to force our government to do what we want a good 50% of the time, which is what, 40% more than you guys?


Chris 'coldacid' Charabaruk <coldacid.net>


 
Chris 'coldacid' Charabaruk <coldacid.net>
IGDA Indie SIG Coordinator, Programmer, Designer

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

ESA's not the boss of us Canadians, so they can go to hell.

When Jack Thompson runs his mouth, does anyone really care what he has to say anymore?

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Stay the hell out of our country intellectual copyright nazies. OH Ow, i just invoked Godwin, i guess that means i lose the arguement. Although personally I think the whole Godwin's Law stuff is a load of crap. Unless it's something retardedly rediculous like "Hitler was an animal lover and vegetarian, so if you love animals and don't eat meat you're a nazi."

 "No law means no law" - Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black on the First Amendment

"No law means no law" - Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black on the First Amendment

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases in direct proportion to the length of the discussion.

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Hum, I wasn't aware of that. I always thought it meant "make a comparison to Hitler/Nazies means auto-lose."

 "No law means no law" - Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black on the First Amendment

"No law means no law" - Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black on the First Amendment

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

But people have interpreted it as once Hitler and the Nazis are used in a discussion, said discussion ends with the one that did NOT make the comparison as the winner through Godwin.

-----------------------------



"The sun will always rise tomorrow. We can only live for today, and hope more days will come." -Unknown

-----------------------------



"A Chrono Trigger is anything that unleashes its will or desire to change history!" -Gaspar

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Regardless, that isn't the original concept of the law.  The interpretation of a law doesn't supercede the law itself...tell that to the next cop who pulls you over for speeding that you "interpreted" the 65mph limit to mean the slowest you're allowed to go.

"De minimus non curat lex"

"De minimus non curat lex"

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Actually, I know that Godwin's Law doesn't mean comparing something to Hitler and/or Nazis is an auto-lose. What I said is that people interpret it that way. I personally do not.

EDIT: Read what I said in response to DarkSaber's reply.

-----------------------------



"The sun will always rise tomorrow. We can only live for today, and hope more days will come." -Unknown

-----------------------------



"A Chrono Trigger is anything that unleashes its will or desire to change history!" -Gaspar

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

If that's true, why do you bring up Godwin at virtually every mention of Hitler or the Nazis?

"De minimus non curat lex"

"De minimus non curat lex"

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

That isn't Godwins Law. Simple as that.

--------------------------------------------------

I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.

-------------------------------------------------- I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

PRECISELY!!!

 

That there is the point in its simplest form! Godwin's Law does NOT state that using Hitler/Nazis in a comparison is an auto-lose! It only states that said comparison becomes more likely of occurring as the discussion goes on! You, sir, are a fucking genius! Hardly anyone these days grasps what you have!

(Not faking this, he really is correct, and it astounds me that even one person here is.)

-----------------------------



"The sun will always rise tomorrow. We can only live for today, and hope more days will come." -Unknown

-----------------------------



"A Chrono Trigger is anything that unleashes its will or desire to change history!" -Gaspar

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Oh Noes! You're 'On The List!' Canada! The Axis of E-Bay!

You can all hang your heads in shame, because the ESA said so!

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Here we go again.  The USTR has singled out Canada in its annual Special 301 Report for its supposed lax copyright policy.  However, in an even more sinister twist this time around, Canada has been elevated to the Priority Watch List.  Canada now joins such esteemed countries as China, Russia, India and Israel.  One cannot help but notice that this axis of evil represents more than 70% of the world's population.  
 
Copyright reforms should be handled by sovereign nations in the normal discourse of their legislative assemblies.  Canada has made clear its commitment to protect its intellectual properties.  It should not stray from this course because a heavily influenced and lobbied report from another country claims its not pulling its weight.  The Special 301 Report is entirely driven by the corporate lobbyists and lacks and dissenting voices of reason outside of US copyright special interest groups.  Hopefully our Members or Parliament will listen the voices and concerns of their constituents and not the US corporate lobbyists who have the power of the media and press releases at their disposal.  Ministers should ask themselves or be told, could a representation of over 2/3 of the world population really be guilty of comprising the USTR's 'Axis of Copyright Evil'?

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Fuck off, ESA.

You, as well as the **AAs need to bugger off and come up with new business models or get the bugs out of your collective asses.

Yes, there is game piracy, but it is not NEARLY as widespread as music downloading, with consoles being especially difficult to pirate for; most consumers will not pirate games. And GOOD distribution models such as Steam are helping to reduce the rate of piracy.

Where you REALLY need to fuck off, ESA, is in places like EULAs, DRM, and "anti-circumvention". You collectively fuck all of us consumers by telling us that your games are unusable because the computer isn't online, that our install of DaemonTools breaks the game, through ROOTKIT BULLSHIT like StarForce and SecuROM, that we can't mod your games because we love them, that we can't copy a CD for LAN parties, AAARRRRGGGGHHHH.

You can fuck off with emulators, too. Emulators and ROMs are one of the best things to happen to computers; where consumers can take the games of their childhood anywhere they want and not be buttfucked by proprietary formats and exclusivity bullshit; not to mention orphaned works. People take their beloved games of yesteryear and remix them, as often exemplified through ROM hacks. YOU, game industry, have benefited from their work; q.e.d. The Sonic Collection on Windows runs a modified version of Gens under the hood.

 

You are a self-serving organization that needs to sputter and die, as well as the RIAA and MPAA. Penny Arcade has done far more for the gaming industry than you have. The only credit you get is fighting game legislation.

 

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?" Pinky: "I think so, Brain, but we're already naked."

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

"The only credit you get is fighting game legislation."

Yeah, but don't you think that's pretty damn significant?  Who's going to come out of pocket to fight the game legislation if they don't?  You?  Penny Arcade?  Laws don't just magically disappear if they're unconstitutional; someone needs to file injunctions and formally challenge them.

Whatever your feelings about the rest of the ESA's work, the fact that they are the primary opponents of anti-game laws deserves more than just a sidebar mention.

"De minimus non curat lex"

"De minimus non curat lex"

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

We need a new ESA. Simple as that. Mike Gallagher isn't doing enough. We need one that can work with consumers (be it through the ECA or directly) as well as the developers.

-----------------------------



"The sun will always rise tomorrow. We can only live for today, and hope more days will come." -Unknown

-----------------------------



"A Chrono Trigger is anything that unleashes its will or desire to change history!" -Gaspar

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

That cannot and will never happen.  The interests of publishers conflict with those of the developers and consumers far too often.  I don't know why so many people on this site fail to understand this.  I would think that to be apparent to anyone who's been paying attention to the games industry longer than a month.  Years after its inception, I still see people around here going, "Dude, what's with the ESA?  Why aren't they doing more to help the average gamer??  Durrrr..."

"De minimus non curat lex"

"De minimus non curat lex"

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Wow... That was... well said. That was... so... beautiful. Like that one post you made long ago in reply to Jack that earned you my respect.

And, to top it off, I agree. Modded games make it easier for us to play old games or use alternate consoles when we can't use the actual console the game was made for.

-----------------------------



"The sun will always rise tomorrow. We can only live for today, and hope more days will come." -Unknown

-----------------------------



"A Chrono Trigger is anything that unleashes its will or desire to change history!" -Gaspar

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Harper, fire nukes NOW! I know you have some hidden somewhere.

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Canada is the one country in the world that the US has no balls to fuck with because we're the one country in the world to put them in their place.

Shut the fuck up and stay the fuck out of our business.

Thank you.

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

I guarantee, if we go for round two, you won't fare nearly as well.  The 10th Mountain, every ranger battalion (and every Ranger for whom there's no space in a Ranger battalion), every Operator and Green Beret would kick your asses up and down your own country. 

You managed to fight to a stalemate when you had Britain's backing, at the time when Britain was still THE world power. 

Things have changed.

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Two things you're failing to consider:
First, the American armed forces are stretched so thin, they're becomming transparent.

Second, unlike the United States, Canada still has friends, internationally. If the United States were to become militarily agressive over anything less than an actual attack on their citizens, they'd be quickly ganged up upon by the (rest of?) civilized world for being an uncontrolled, unrestrained and insane global military threat.

Also: I'm sure you're (irrationally) proud of you nations army -- it may be large, but that's about all it's got going for it. Compared to Canada, America's major advantage is superior mechanical equipment; better tanks, aircraft, etc. However, Canada's general infantry is trained more extensively than those in the US Army, most presumably making them more effective per soldier than their counterparts. An all out conflict between Canada and the US would likely be very difficult to call on the outset.

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Well, the training part for the general infantry I might have to conceed on.  However, what you're not taking into account is the fact that america has been in constant battle with various nations for the past...well, since about WWII.  This is far from something to be proud of.  I'm in no way glorifying the often wayward military actions of the US.  I'm just pointing out a flaw in your argument. 

See, the US does a lot of things, and one of those things is war.  We've gotten fairly good at it, even dealing with a militant populous.  This means our soldiers and our commanders have something far better than training, which is actual experience.  Add onto that the technical superiority of the US military, the various different special forces groups, the fact that placing an aircraft carrier on either coast would shut off any trade into and out of the country, and not to mention the population differences, and I fail to see how your arguments hold.

Again, this is not to praise america.  This is not to have a dick measuring competition.  This is simply striking down your piss poor argument of "better trained soldiers" gives you some kind of advantage compared to the size, technical, and tactical superiority of America's Military, all 3 being the key deciding factors in a war.  So, you used the term "irrationally proud."  I think that term applies just as well to you as any.

Your argument needs work.

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Like every theoretical battle discussion, these debates always result in poking holes in the other persons arguement until you loose track and start poking out the same holes over and over again.

"So, you used the term "irrationally proud."  I think that term applies just as well to you as any."
When I state that you can't predict the outcome of a battle between two large countries, you believe it's irrational pride? That's foolish. But regardless, I shall offer a courtsey counter-poke.

The United states could do quite a bit to hamper Canadian trade, but considering that Canada is the second largest nation in the world and has the most coastline of any country, it'd be impossible for ANY country to completely cut off their trade. More still, Canada has more natural resources than most other countries, even of compariable size, making trade distinctly less important (though not even remotely unimportant).

As for American Military experience; they may have been involved in a lot of wars, but that doesn't exactly show that they're good at it, just that they have the resources to throw at continuing conflicts. This of course has had a long term detrimental effect -- at some point, the world is going to stop lending the US money for it's wars.

To further the financial argument; China and Canada are very large trading partners. China also owns an enormous amount of American debt. Attemping to stop Canadian/Chinese trade would probably bankrupt the United States, and the political pressure China could exert on the US would be nothing less than formidable. They don't even have to like Canada in to be on their side in a US/Canada conflict.

Back to the idea of experience in the US army. The American army has been exhibiting a number of symptoms of exhaustion. Low recruitment rates and forces spread across the globe means that very few troops at all would be available to participate in a Canadian/American war. The US would never recall forces out of the rest of the world, just to attack Canada, though they might to defend against attack should there be counter-aggresions. However, such a move would then single an excellent time for counter-agressions by the rest of the world by the countries the United States has been terrorizing for decades.

I'm trailing from the point I wanted to make -- low recruitment, spread thin troops, ultimately leads to a large number of psycologically damaged troops being kept in to maintain numbers. Additionally, survivability in war doesn't increase dramatically over time; there are less usefully experienced troops than there are dead troops. It could be debated that the average American troop experience level is insignificant in actual war.

Assuming not; the Canadian army isn't UNexperience either. While smaller, they've participated in a lot of global conflicts, which should make them comparibly experienced. (Also; I do believe that Canadian troops are statistically less likely to die in armed conflict, but I'd need to find some data to back that up.) And with the Canadian military being less overstretched, fewer soldiers would be over taxed, allowing more experienced soldiers to have longer tours of duty (over time) without as many ill effects.

And there are a million counter arugments. Feel free. I'll keep this up until bordem sets in.

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Why is this even a discussion? Isn't Canada the 51st state?

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

I thought that was the UK, or were we just America's largest aircraft carrier? I forget

Re: ESA Cheers as Obama Administration Spanks Canada

Yeah...200 years ago.  Which resulted in a stalemate at the US-Canada border.  In which canada had the support of the #1 world power at the time.  In which the Brittish/Canadian forces only major claim to victory is the burning of the White House, a building which had no major importance at the time. 

Bravo on that.  Was really a good show.  Thanks for inspiring our current national anthem.  However, you can't call claims of victory or putting the US in its place when your invading forces got pushed back to your country dispite major help from the Brittish, and a treaty was signed in which gave back all land taken by both sides (america took parts of canada north of Michegan, east of the Canadian Shield/Quetico, Canada had Maine).

But I do agree with your statement that America should mind it's own buisness and stay out of Canada's affairs.

 
Forgot your password?
Username :
Password :

Shout box

You're not permitted to post shouts.
Matthew Wilsonyes it help a sub section of the poor, but hurt both the middle and upper class. in the end way more people were hurt than helped. also, it hurt most poor people as well.04/16/2014 - 12:13am
SeanBJust goes to show what I have said for years. Your ability to have sex does not qualify you for parenthood.04/15/2014 - 9:21pm
NeenekoSo "worked" vs "failed" really comes down to who you think is more important and deserving04/15/2014 - 7:04pm
NeenekoThough I am also not sure we can say NYC failed. Rent control helped the people it was intended for and is considered a failure by the people it was designed to protect them from.04/15/2014 - 7:04pm
NeenekoIf they change the rules, demand will plummet. Though yeah, rent control probably would not help much in the SF case. I doubt anything will.04/15/2014 - 1:35pm
TheSmokeyOnline gamer accused of murdering son to keep playing - http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2014/04/15/21604921.html04/15/2014 - 11:50am
Matthew Wilsonyup, but curent city rules do not allow for that.04/15/2014 - 11:00am
ZippyDSMleeIf SF dose not start building upwards then they will price people out of the aera.04/15/2014 - 10:59am
Matthew Wilsonthe issue rent control has it reduces supply, and in SF case they already has a supply problem. rent control ofen puts rent below cost, or below profit of selling it. rent control would not fix this issue.04/15/2014 - 10:56am
NeenekoRent control is useful in moderation, NYC took it way to far and tends to be held up as an example of them not working, but in most cases they are more subtle and positive.04/15/2014 - 10:24am
PHX CorpBeating Cancer with Video Games http://mashable.com/2014/04/14/steven-gonzalez-survivor-games/04/15/2014 - 9:21am
Matthew Wilsonwhat are you saying SF should do rent control, that has never worked every time it has been tried. the issue here is a self inflicted supply problem imposed by stupid laws.04/15/2014 - 8:52am
E. Zachary KnightNeeneko, Government created price controls don't work though. They may keep prices down for the current inhabitants, but they are the primary cause of recently vacated residences having astronomical costs. Look at New York City as a prime example.04/15/2014 - 8:50am
NeenekoI think free markets are important, but believe in balance. Too much of any force and things get unstable.04/15/2014 - 7:25am
NeenekoWell, the traditional way of keeping prices down is what they are doing, controls on lease termination and tax code, but it will not be enough in this case.04/15/2014 - 7:24am
Matthew WilsonI said that already04/14/2014 - 4:22pm
E. Zachary KnightMatthew, The could also lower prices by increasing supply. Allow high rise apartment buildings to be built to fulfill demand and prices will drop.04/14/2014 - 3:48pm
Matthew Wilsonthe only way they could keep the price's down, would be to kick out google, apple, amazon, and other tech companies, but that would do a ton of economic damage to SF, but I am a major proponent of free markets04/14/2014 - 2:54pm
NeenekoThe community people are seeking gets destroyed in the process, and the new people are not able to build on themselves. Generally these situations result in local cultural death in a decade or so, and no one wins.04/14/2014 - 2:09pm
NeenekoWell yes, that is the 'free market', but the market is only a small piece of a much larger system. The market does not always do the constructive thing.04/14/2014 - 2:06pm
 

Be Heard - Contact Your Politician