In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

May 11, 2009 -

Violent video games, a frequent political target in Germany, once again came under fire following the horrific school shooting in Winnenden on March 11th.

While there were renewed calls for a complete ban on violent games, it was, surprisingly, paintball and laser tag which, ultimately, will find themselves outlawed.

The Local reports that violators of the upcoming bans could find themselves on the wrong end of a €5,000 (about US$6,800) fine. Wolfgang Bosbach, deputy head of the conservative Christian Union parliamentary group, commented:

We have agreed on reasonable changes that will mean more security without over-regulating hobby marksmen and hunters... [Paintball and laser tag] simulate killing.

The Winnenden case also sparked a debate on gun control in Germany. The BBC has more.


Comments

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

i guess germany bans army next?

and what else? boxing? wrestling? Biathlon? Clay pigeon shooting? hunting?

good luck with your facist government germans.

 

"Science asks how, and faith asks why"

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

I guess the US puts innocent US-citizens in inhuman prisons next, without trial, and by nullifying their human rights.

Good luck with your fascist, dictatorial government, America.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

I mean no offense to the German folks who come to these boards but I am always amazed by the willingness of the German convernment to control the free expressions of their people.  I understand that European nations don't generally enjoy the free-speech protections of the US (and yes, I know paint-ball and lasertag aren't speech, but its all part of the same zeitgeist, if you will)...but Germany seems extreem even by European standards.

For a demoncratically representative government, they sure seem quick to but restrictions on the behavior of citizens, all in the name of "protecting the children".  Of course most dictatorial governments use pretty much the same line (protecting society, maintaining stability, etc.). 

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

I understand that European nations don't generally enjoy the free-speech protections of the US (and yes, I know paint-ball and lasertag aren't speech, but its all part of the same zeitgeist, if you will)

It is interesting to note, from an external viewpoint, that in the US it appears that 'Freedom of Speech' is valued over all other freedoms. Whereas in Germany the right to life and human dignity is valued over other freedoms.

It is also interesting to note how one culture finds it difficult to understand that another culture could hold a different freedom more highly that the one they prize most without being 'dictatorial'.

I imagine it would take relatively little insight into the political history of both nations to find the reason for the cutural diversity that exisits. From the UK perpective we have already sat somewhere mid-atlantic on these issues; as is explained by our political history.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

Gustav, most intelligent post on this topic. Its what I've often said. Its all a matter of perspective. Germans (and the political institutions) also value their privacy higher then US- or UK-citizens, as can be seen in many instances. Are the US and the UK dictatorial because of this?

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

"It is interesting to note, from an external viewpoint, that in the US it appears that 'Freedom of Speech' is valued over all other freedoms. Whereas in Germany the right to life and human dignity is valued over other freedoms."

Personally, I feel the US has it the right way around.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

I think you twist my words (it happens, and it's all good).  To be clear I referred to Germany as "democratically representative", not dictatorial.  I did note that dictatorial countries often use the same language to justify repressive actions, which (with a little insight into political history) is clearly the case.  Do I worry about restriction on the freedom of speech?  Sure.  Do I think Germany is a repressive dictatorship.  Not at all.  Hopefully that helps clarify.  Besides I think you might set up a false dichotomy in your post...the cultures either value a.) freedom of expression, or b.) safety and human dignity, but not both, or at least that one must be valued more than the other.  I'm not sure they can necessarily be ranked, at least in the US, as clearly as you suggest.  Both are valued, both are valued highly, and may be valued differently in different contexts.  I do agree their are differences between the US and Germany regarding attitudes toward censorship, which is where I think the difference lies...less so on values of human dignity and safety.  Which simply brings us back around to my original post. 

By the way, at least academically, I've noticed UK academics tend to be more skeptical of the media violence hypothesis (I'm thinking Gauntlett or Jewkes or Colwell) than are many US academics.  Of course that doesn't always reflect societal beliefs.  And that's just my distant impression...what sense do you get of that from living in the UK?

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

I didn't intend to 'twist' your words, merely throw an interpretation into stark relief. There is far too much recourse to the 1930s in such debates when the political and cultural map is post 50s.

The US/European distinction on human rights (can I stress than the term human extends beyond US Citizens) was very stark in last few years; does anyone need to give examples. It has been so since the the 50s. Reading the first few lines of the European Convention makes it clear. The right to life is absolute in Europe. All signatories must guarantee it; it it the first cannon of entry. Almost all other rights, including speech, are not absolute rights.

The position is, almost, reversed in the US. The right to life is negotiable, but speech is very highly protected. Each culture, and society, makes its choices.

The UK is very socially liberal; not using the US's pergorative use of the term. We generaly believe in personal responsibility, but also State support for all persons. We tend not to look for a scapegoat other than the person; but there has been a shift to a litigation focused 'blameocrarcy' in recent years. I hope we can reject it.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

Quote "The US/European distinction on human rights (can I stress than the term human extends beyond US Citizens)..."

By the way I wasn't sure what you meant by this?  I don't know where either I or anyone else implied that only US citizens were human?

Otherwise, interesting discussion.

Cheers

 

 

 

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

I was referring to recent situations in which non-US citizens are denied human rights by the US while held by them outside the territorial USA. Rights which would have been protected has they been US citizens or in the US.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

Nonsense.  The preamble of the US Declaration of Independence makes clear that the fundamental "self-evident" liberties are for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  To suggest that the right to life in the US is "negotiable" seems, at best, a twisted interpretation of US/European differences.  Perhaps it was an unintended wording on your part?

By the way, I wasn't particularly referencing the 1930s (although why you would think so is understandable given that we're discussing Germany).  Indeed, in fact, I was thinking just as much as the numerous dictatorial/totalitarian/paternalistic regimes that have existed both before and after the 1930s as examples, including regimes still in power today (indeed even many US politicians will refer to similar arguments when suggesting the restriction of expression rights, although it seems less common than in Germany...hence my point).  Thus I suspect that your argument that "all has changed" on the worldwide scale since the 1950s is probably incorrect.  It might be true for Germany, but Germany's repressive regime has simply been one of many, and such repressive regimes remain reasonably common.  There may be some that don't bother "dressing up" their abuse of their citizenry, but many others have embraced arguments for why heavy restrictions are "good" for social stability in various forms (some of the arguments coming out of modern Russia would be an excellent example...no need to reference the 1930s).

 

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

To suggest that the right to life in the US is "negotiable" seems, at best, a twisted interpretation of US/European differences.  Perhaps it was an unintended wording on your part?

I was referring specifically to the position of capital punishment. Under the Europran Convention it is not permitted, not so in the US. In that sense the right to life is absolute in one jurisdiction, but not another. There are, of course, more complex examples but this sort of fora isn't necessarily the best place to draw them out.

I am not challengeing the choices - merely pointing out the differences.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

"We have agreed on reasonable changes that will mean more security without over-regulating hobby marksmen and hunters... [Paintball and laser tag] simulate killing"

Translation: Firing toy weapons at people is just wrong. Using real weapons to kill animals just for the fun of it is A-OK.

I'm not against hunting but doesn't this statement strike anyone else as just the tiniest bit strange?
---
I'm not under the affluence of incohol as some thinkle peep I am. I'm not half as thunk as you might drink. I fool so feelish I don't know who is me, and the drunker I stand here, the longer I get.


---
I'm not under the affluence of incohol as some thinkle peep I am. I'm not half as thunk as you might drink. I fool so feelish I don't know who is me, and the drunker I stand here, the longer I get.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

You're right, it's ridiculous. I'd be more worried about the people who are learning to kill animals with real firearms than I would be about the guys shooting paint at each other with gas-powered paintball guns. Nothing against hunters (someone needs to keep the deer population down around here) but learning to fire a real weapon automatically makes you more dangerous than someone who only knows how to fire a toy weapon.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

Germany, of all countries in the world, should be the last one to be blaming modern media for violence, consdering the outcome of the Post-WW1 depression.

Obvious Scapegoat is obvious.

That said, as has been mentioned earlier, it's not banned, it's under consideration for banning, let's hope someone actually remembers what happened 70 years ago and realises that 'book burning' in any format is unacceptable.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

That ought to teach them school shooters! 

"Keep this up and next we'll make it illegal to point your finger and someone and shout BANG! Then what? Huh? Then what?"

If you go crazy then I will still call you Superman.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

Of course they wouldn't ban real weapons, because Hecker & Koch, Mossberg, and Walther dump a ton of money into the German economy.

 

 

"The Good, the Bad, and the Videogame" Reviews on the best, worst, and controversial issues of Videogames. gryphonosiris.blogspot.com/

"The Good, the Bad, and the Videogame" Reviews on the best, worst, and controversial issues of Videogames. gryphonosiris.blogspot.com/

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

I'm pretty sure Mossberg is Swedish.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

Actually, we are both wrong, they are American with the Swedish flag on their logo.

 

"The Good, the Bad, and the Videogame" Reviews on the best, worst, and controversial issues of Videogames. gryphonosiris.blogspot.com/

"The Good, the Bad, and the Videogame" Reviews on the best, worst, and controversial issues of Videogames. gryphonosiris.blogspot.com/

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

True that.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

More evidence of the world being running by a bunch of morons... God helps us if they want a real war. They´ll make us to use clips and rubber bands against assault rifles.

 

The cynical side of videogames (spanish only): http://thelostlevel.blogspot.com/ My DeviantArt Page (aka DeviantCensorship): http://www.darkknightstrikes.deviantart.com/

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

I said it before, I'll say it again: General courtesy at paintball forbids some things that would actually properly simulate killing.

Rather than outlawing it without even investigating how many youths vs adults play it, they could instead demand fields will put general courtesy into rules and ban all those that ignore it. (If you shoot someone in the back of his head at a few meters distance, you're clearly a sadistic fuck.)
But that would require actual intelligence.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

Paintball IS NOT YET banned in Germany. 

The two governing parties (CDU & SPD) are thinking about it, though, so its probably only a matter of weeks.

Needless to say that this is purely a campaign move, since we have two important elections in Germany this year, first for the European Parliament, later for the Bundestag (one of Germany's two legislative chambers).

The opposition is against it, the two big police-unions are against it (since they'll be unable to enforce it), and basically every sane person is against it.

We'll see...

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

"...basically every sane person is against it."

This is Germany we're talking about - the place where people won't use a crosswalk when there's not a car in sight if the light is against them, and where payment for subway rides is on the honor system.  Sanity is in question when it comes to the Germans.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

It also averages an 18 month wait for Chemotherapy.  Crazy country indeed.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

What the hell are you two talking about?

If there are cars in sight, Germans will use the crosswalk (since cars HAVE to stop for you - in theory), if there aren't they'll just cross the street.

The Subways may be based on the honor system, but there are still regular checks if you've bought a ticket, and if you get cought without one it costs you big time.

And whats your source on this completely ridiculous chemo-therapy lie?

Stupid, ill-informed people...

 

I could now start talking about the sanity of Americans (and as an American Studies student I definitely know more about that topic then you about Germans), but that would take all night...

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

It'll be parkour next, just you wait.


"HEY! LISTEN!"

"HEY! LISTEN!"

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

I remember a note where somebody on german politics was saying that banning paintball is just a placebo tactic. 100% agree.

The cynical side of videogames (spanish only): http://thelostlevel.blogspot.com/ My DeviantArt Page (aka DeviantCensorship): http://www.darkknightstrikes.deviantart.com/

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

Nothing like proper credit given to the helpful gamer who sent this tip 4 days ago, but hey, who's counting? ;)

Like everyone else here, my response was a facepalm of Picard proportions. I honestly cannot believe the German government are such utter morons as to believe this will somehow reduce the likelihood of school shootings etc. The real issue here, of easy access to personal weapons, lies unaddressed as a political minefield, and yet the politicans punish the nation's youth by outlawing positive activities that encourage kids outdoors.

Way to go German government.

 

Check out my blog - http://serveratcapacity.blogspot.com

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

While I might like airsoft, paintball and the occasional indoor nerf gun fire.  But I go camping, hiking, wilderness survival, and even the occasional trek across the street.  I dont need a gun, as a reason, to go outside.

Neither does, the youth in Germany.  Plenty of things to do outside, that have nothing to due with guns of any kind....

 

...like drinking massive quantities of beer. =)

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

Oh, my God...What the fuh...

For the love of God, somebody get me a facepalm!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Game on, brothers and sisters.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." -- Ben Franklin Game on, brothers and sisters.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

 

The cynical side of videogames (spanish only): http://thelostlevel.blogspot.com/ My DeviantArt Page (aka DeviantCensorship): http://www.darkknightstrikes.deviantart.com/

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

Thank you very much, Rodrigo.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Game on, brothers and sisters.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." -- Ben Franklin Game on, brothers and sisters.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

About the only thing the French have contributed to the discussion thusfar...

"HEY! LISTEN!"

"HEY! LISTEN!"

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

Germany also needs to ban little boys running around with their thumb and index fingers pointed out going "Bang!  Bang!  I shot you, I killed you, you're dead!"  It's the only way they'll ever be safe.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

You're doing it wrong.

Obviously you an thumbs and index fingers. And little boys.

-- http://pixelantes.blogspot.com/

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

 

Yeah, that's true.  I remember reading aomewhere all of our killer played cops and robbers with their thumb and index fingers when they were little kids.  So anyone playing Cops and Robbers will become a homicidal maniac.  Ban it!!! For the children and the future.

 

(end sacasm)

 

mikedo2007

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

In a lot of US schools that still have recess, playing cops and robbers like that can get you in trouble. Me and a group of friends got a couple days of in-school suspension in elementary school in the mid 90's for doing it. Hell, we weren't even allowed to play dodgeball during our free days in gym class in middle and high school because it was considered "too violent and dangerous."

And we also got in trouble for playing with POGs(that old cardboard disk game) and Pokemon cards in elementary school because we were "gambling" even though nothing ever changed ownership unless it was a trade.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, ...

That's just.. Wow..

 

The rest of the world shakes their head at you.

 

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

What the frack? Seriously! Why do people think people who like tactical sports and gear whether it be as simple as paintball to a semi-auto AK-47 or AR-15 think that their psycopaths. That could be no further from the truth. People who like Paintball, Airsoft, or REAL GUNS in my view are more likely to be people who will serve and protect your country whether from terroists by joining the army, or gaurding your neighbor in a WROL (Without rule of law) situation.

Why we need "tactical" gear such as rifle plating, bullet proof vests, "tactical carbines" is for situations when the police can't get to you, because of riots or natural disastors. For those who don't think it could ever happen, look at Katrina, or look at the LA Riots. Massive home invasions, massive looting. You should be thankful for those in Americia that you have AT LEAST SOME people with a passion for training for scenarios that most people have a hard time imagining but could very well happen.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

"People who like Paintball, Airsoft, or REAL GUNS in my view are more likely to be people who will serve and protect your country whether from terroists by joining the army, or gaurding your neighbor in a WROL (Without rule of law) situation."

Unfortunately, the statistics don't bear that out.  People who like and own guns are far more likely to shoot themselves or others than they are to join the army or guard a neighbour against criminals.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

Those are some lovely brady campaign bullshit statistics there.  However, like everything else the Brady Campaign spreads, they are dead fucking wrong.  It's true, there are 20,000 firearm suicides a year in America.  However, there are far more in Japan, were firearms are harder than hell to get, so surely it isn't the gun.  By the by, a person intent on suicide will find a way, be it pills, alcohol, jumping off of something, or shooting themselves.  Meanwhile, out of over 50 million firearms in America, shooting, as a sport, STILL has the lowest rate of injury of ANY sport in the world.

For some real stats, please see guncite.com

Also, when we had no power in my neighborhood for a week, we all took care of each other, especially around day 3 when looters came.  It took 5 hours for the cops to arrive, so we basically sat the looters down in my front yard and waited for the cops to come. 

 

 

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

Yes, there are far more suicides in Japan, then the USA.  However, the grand majority of them, are NOT, caused by firearms.

 

Actually, Chess has the lowest rate of injury of sports in the world. 

 

Yes, lets go to 'guncite.com', because that is 'unbias' and 'no agenda' based.  Why not go to the FBI's site, and look up the information.  Its your tax dollars hard at work...

When the power was out in my neck of the woods for two weeks, no one in their right mind wanted to loot.  To bloody cold!  In fact, the police in my area had alot of help from good citizens keeping a close eye on things.  And we did it without firearms.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

Yeah, but when Katrina hit, everyone was looting and setting buildings on fire so what's your point?

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

Chess isn't a sport.  Chess is a board game.

Guncite.com actually is fairly unbiased.  It debunks not only bullshit from the anti-gun side of things, but also bullshit from the pro-gun.  It talks about quotes that aren't real, etc.  By the way, the FBI info supports what guncite says.

Well, when we were without power for a week, it was the middle of september, and was warm enough for some people to try and loot houses.  And we prevented injury to ourselves with firearms.  r

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

This is so incredibly stupid. Is life rounds target practice banned? No. And that more accurately presents how it would be to shoot up a bunch of defenseless victims. Paintball simulates killing? Well hunters actually kill! Why overregulate paintball but not hunting? And no, this is not a call for a ban on life rounds target practice or hunting, I'm just pointing out that even in their stupidity they manage to be stupid.

And of course nobody gives a sh*t about the paintball and lasertag companies that just went out of business. Are there any germans here who can supply numbers about the number of companies?

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

Why not ban Paintball and not Hunting?

Easy: Paintball-Players don't have a lobby in Germany, while the hunter's lobby is relatively big and deeply engrained in conservative political circles.

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

You have to hand it to them - they're not going to be caught doing a half-assed job of scapegoating violent "games".

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

Is there any evidence that the shooter ever played paintball or laser tag?
 

Re: In Wake of School Rampage, Germany Bans Paintball, Laser Tag

Nope.

 

He had full access to, and training with, REAL guns, though.

 
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