Today brings the launch of an online game created for the California Nurses Association and National Nurses Organizing Committee.
You Bet Your Health advocates a single-payer healthcare system by highlighting ways in which American citizens can be negatively impacted by the current system of commercially-provided healthcare insurance.
The game is a simple spin-the-wheel affair in which all of the outcomes are bad except when the player lands on a single-payer coverage plan. A press release explains the NNOC/CNA's position:
When American patients trust their health to a for-profit insurance company, they're doing nothing less than gambling with their lives... The game is part of a wide-ranging public education and political mobilization campaign for single-payer health reforms, which is the choice of nurses and doctors.
This video game... features an everyday patient trying to win healthcare from her insurance company. In each case, the insurer wins. Finally, as a bonus round, the patient spins to choose a healthcare system—and is fortunate to land on the single-payer model, which is succeeding in much of the rest of the industrialized world and which has been introduced in Congress as HR 676 (Conyers - MI) and S 703 (Sanders - VT).
Although the NNOC/CNA press release indicates that You Bet Your Health will be ad-supported, there are presently no ads on the game's web page.
Comments
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
I am completely dumbfounded by America's reaction to the fact that our Senate Finance Committee just had educated, concerned, taxpaying citizens ARRESTED for simply asking to have a voice. Whether you are for or against Single Payer, surely you can agree they deserve a seat at the table! Please take the time to watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbu7mgnpEO8
Senator Baucus has a serious conflict of interest going on. This kind of political maneuvering and greed is what has the whole global economy in the dust. I think too many people have given their lives for our freedom for us to tolerate this.
"There comes a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part, you can't even passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, the people who own it, that unless you're free the machine will be prevented from working at all." -- Mario Savio
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
I'm honestly really surprised that someone hasn't posted this already...
What about litigation against the medical industry?
Yes, the medical industry has done a lot of boneheaded things, but on the flipside many have sued the hospital, doctors, staff, etc and won with borderline merit. Now when I say they've won I'm taking out of court settlements into this equation.
Honestly from my own personal experiences seeing what a lawyer gets paid to "represent" someone in a medical malpractice suit it's just... Wow... Right up there with lawyers who love class action lawsuits. I'm all for keeping incompetence out of the medical industry, but I'm also not a fan of leaving doctors in fear of massive, multi-million dollar lawsuits. I have a couple of friends who now simply consult with hospitals on medical procedures because of the escalating cost of their malpractice insurance and what they saw their colleagues dealing with.
On everything else, the1jeffy has already put it up for discussion.
"Volume helps to get a point across but sharp teeth are better."
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
And unfortunately - partly because of those legal costs - hospitals often just settle a case, even if it does have borderline merit. I don't have any numbers, but I imagine it's quite a financial drain on the medical system.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Its obvious the health care system from insurance to pharmaceutical is broken1 and poorly regulated , First off generics need to be mandatory and cheap to attained within months(under a year) of the drug first hitting the store otherwise the pharmaceutical industry should be forced to go nonprofit and they can compete with being first instead of monopolizing everything they can. Next off insurance should be forced to locked rates based on how much you bring in after taxes none of this rate hiking when you sneeze or need to use it, if you make more than 250K(300K family) a year then they can change you whatever they want. This would put a ton of money back into the economy and not stuck in the healthcare system. Insurance should be a set rate based on what your job is that is locked for life, you could make it so it goes up 1% a year but something has to be done to simplify and make the system non top heavy like the credit card industry…
If you do these or at the least make it easy for people to buy the stuff they need then you won’t need a national healthcare system because people can afford insurance and medication.
I am a criminal because I purchase media,I am a criminal because I use media, I am a criminal because I chose to own media..We shall remain criminals until Corporate stay's outside our bedrooms..
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.
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Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
What the1jeffy said. Most of the cost of those expensive name brand drugs is the company recouping the cost it took to develop it. Get rid of that? No more new cancer treatments, no AIDS research, nada.
In fact, many of the medicines on the market today are there in spite of the fact that - to simplify matters - most other countries have essentially held the American patent owners hostage by threatening to defy international patent laws and copy and mass produce their own version of the drugs. So they get the drugs at a much cheaper price, but Americans - whose government hasn't yet been cowardly enough to allow the drugs to be turned around and imported back into our country - get shafted with a much higher price than would be necessary if that cost was spread over the entire market.
The day our government reverses that position (or allows illegaly manufactured generics of drugs that are still under patent to be imported, the equivalent of buying fenced goods), as Obama has suggested doing, is the day medical research comes to a standstill.
At that point, I really hope you or nobody you know contracts an illness to which there is no treatment or cure.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Alyric
Research won’t come to a standstill they will only lose 30% if that of their profits as a government you have to make a decision infringe on copy right in order to balance society or you allow corporate mafias to go unchallenged and force higher taxes on the public in order to balance the bottom tiers.
All that’s left is abolishing building codes and squallier and let the public fend for itself letting the unwashed masses live in shanty towns or buildings that are falling apart because they can’t afford to repair them, if you want to go back to the times were you kept more of your money be ready for shanty towns, roaming mobs, culling of leapers. It’s better to tell corporate they have limited rights so that society treats humans humanly or we become a 2nd world nation where the rich and their workers live well and everyone else lives in poverty.
And you know if the medication is good enough for the UK or Canada its good enough for here and not everyone is going to go online and buy it, we NEED to skirt some of the inane and anti competition laws and rules we have in the US what of the free market what of allow the public to decide for themselves I mean come on these companies are getting money from the world there is not one good reason why the public cannot compete on the world scale and buy their meds via a world market.
I am a criminal because I purchase media,I am a criminal because I use media, I am a criminal because I chose to own media..We shall remain criminals until Corporate stay's outside our bedrooms..
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.
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Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Zip,
That is hopelessly naive. And shows you know little about how making drugs happens. Drug companies spend BILLIONS on research of many, many drugs that don't work. Then, when one does, it can take up to 15 years to get FDA approval to put it on the open market.
So you want to make it illegal to sell this drug as a name brand for over a year? Who can afford to invest in new drugs at that point? You effectively killed drug research with this idea.
Again, what motive is there to spend billions on researching cutting edge drugs when you can't even remotely break even (let alone profit) in your 1-year (or the existing 2-5 that already exists) plan?
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Alyric/ the1jeffy
You ever think they should not be making billions off the sick and needy? But no what I want is the instant they put a drug out a generic can be made by any company at a tenth of the current licensing shill(basically the brand name gets a small part 1-5% of the profit made from the sale of the generic) if they can’t do that the US government should say we are revoking your copy right to this because the people and goverment need it and the government can make their own generics so their drug coverage costs can be lowered.
The brand names can sell their own made stuff normally at any price they see fit to price it at and due to their advertising power they will still get as much support because they are actively marketing their stuff to the public and those that can afford it will buy it.
What I want as far as drugs go a reinvention of the generic system as so it halves the price of drugs a few times for the masses if not the only alternative is national healthcare which will only drag us all down by forcing us all to pay more because healthcare costs have doubled a few times via outrageous drug prices and everything has gone up to cover basic health care for workers in the US. Better to halved the issue let the drug companies do as they wish but at a price they must allow approved copying of their drugs at cut rate prices.
I am a criminal because I purchase media,I am a criminal because I use media, I am a criminal because I chose to own media..We shall remain criminals until Corporate stay's outside our bedrooms..
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.
---
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Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
You completely ignored the fact that without billions of dollars of research, there is no new drugs.
Without profit, there is no progress. I'm sorry but drugs, by their nature, are only needed by the sick, so yes, drug companies HAVE to make money from sick people.
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
the1jeffy
You don’t get it do you? They have a choice either be part of society or be the reason why people(and themselfs) pay more money for everything. Either way you do it put a 50% tax on drugs and funnel that money into drug coverage for the middle/lower tiers any way you do it they are part of the problem either they give up some of their exclusive profit rights or be forced to pay more for their own in country staff via tripled insurance costs.
The trouble is THEY ARE AS MUCH A PART OF THE PROLBEM AS ANYTHIGN ELSE and the US is not the only rich country to leech from…..
A corporation cannot be detached from its responsibilities to the world it’s in, IE profit at just above cost and assisting society at large because its 10-30% a part of the whole of society..
And frankly we would be better off if the phrama sector shrank some leaving the people who are in it for the betterment of soscity and flush some of the bad drug profit only bustards from the system.. prehaps wwe'd get less drugs that are bad from the start being passed by the FDA....
I am a criminal because I purchase media,I am a criminal because I use media, I am a criminal because I chose to own media..We shall remain criminals until Corporate stay's outside our bedrooms..
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Let's renegotiate them.
---
http://zippydsm.deviantart.com/
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
If "All Knowledge is Worth Having" why can't the Single Payer Advocates have a seat at the table to share their knowledge?
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
All I can say is this - I've lived for 27 years under a single payer healthcare system (UK) and 20 years under the US system. If I had my life to live over I would never have decided to live in the US. US medical insurance is a budget-killer - it just drains my family's resources and the medical benefits are in no way better than those I had in the UK. Having experienced both systems, I can see the anti-single-payer propaganda for what it is, and it's probably the worst scam being perpetrated on the American public - forget Bernie Madoff or any other huge scandal of recent years - lack of a single payer healthcare plan is costing us all much much more than all the other illegal scams put together.
And the tragedy is, we're probably not even going to get a single payer system in my lifetime - the current Obama plan basically caters to the same folks who are currently bleeding us white. If I didn't have a wife and kid to support, and if we didn't have so much already invested here in the US, I'd probably go back to the UK tomorrow - it has to be better than being endlessly milked as one of the cash cows of the insurance industry.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Living in Canada, I would have to agree. But it is a tricky balance.
Our national health care plan is costing the country about $170 billion annually. Roughly, $5200 per person. It works, but is extremely costly. Since its 'free' people go to hospitals and ER for ridiculous things, thus causing huge waiting times. A two-tiered health system was suggested a while back, and it was an interesting idea.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Canada's system only works because of the proximity to the expensive, cutting edge US healthcare industry. You are welcome. Why else do the world's leading healthcare experts come here to work?
I'm not bashing Canada or other countries, here, I'm just pointing out that major medical advances are coming mostly out of the US because of the available cash.
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
How does that explain how the systems in, say, Scandanavian countries work?
I believe I read that the US is the only industrialized nation in the world that doesn't have a guaranteed level of health care for all its citizens. In a country as wealthy as the US, that's just wrong.
In one of your posts, you state:
"If you live in the US, you will not be refused ER treatment, period. Even if you can't pay for it, the docs will still save your life, because it's illegal to refuse treatment to the uninsured."
Yeah... that's not entirely true.
First, you are correct that they can't refuse treatment.
However, they are only obligated to 'stabilize' you before releasing you. They don't have to do anything more than that.
As far as payment, if you have any assets, they can come after them for payment. Your little trip to the ER could bankrupt you.
Perhaps instead of the "Rah-rah, U-S-A NUMBER ONE!" rhetoric you could try opening your mind to other ideas. Nah, that's too much work.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
"However, they are only obligated to 'stabilize' you before releasing you. They don't have to do anything more than that."
So the EMERGENCY ROOM takes the "emergency" away. I am also not talking about truly emergent cases, like gun shots, car accidents, lawn mower mishaps, etc. I am talking about abusing this law to get free healthcare. Why should docs/nurses be obligated to do more than save a life, for free? Who pays for their salary? You know why there's a 7 hour wait in ERs? Because ERs are forced into treating everything for free.
All the handholding and hugs that goes into rationalizing socialized medicine never deals with the simple and undisputable fact: Healthcare Service isn't free. It requires medical supplies, drugs, blood, and education. The question that never gets answered is, "Who will pay for it?"
My answer is simple: me. Your answer is simple, too: Everyone else (including me).
How is that not theft to you? Or at a minimum, pure Socialism?
This socialized medicine issue is symptom of the simpleton's view that the Government's money is free for the taking.
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
The reason the U.S. is so wealthy is because its citizens are expected to stand on their own.
In recent times, particularly, there has been a rapid expansion of government programs designed against that policy. (Welfare, etc.) What we've seen is an ever more rapid expansion of people perfectly willing to throw their lives away and live on that government paycheck.
Certainly, there are people who - for varying reasons - simply cannot make it on their own, no matter how hard they would try. They should be assisted by independent charities - plenty exist, and if the government would extricate itself from the mess it's made, more would spring up. Quite frankly, independent charities would probably do a much better job of managing the funds and support, too.
One of the beauty of charities, of course, is that people who have the means can contribute, and those that don't aren't taxed into oblivion supporting it.
And if you want to keep quoting potential negative scenarios and problems with our current health care systems, I'd be more than willing to spend tomorrow digging up a plethora of links of the problems and failings of socialized health care. Elderly refused treatment because the government places its priority on the workforce, serious illnesses ignored because it wasn't cost effective to treat, people put for years on waiting lists for simple operations that end up costing them their lives, etc.
No, our current system isn't perfect. None of them are. But it's a damn sight better than the alternative.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
The fact of the matter is that these insurance companies are out to make a profit off of people's well-being. Anyone that is assumed not to be able to make them a profit gets screwed and is forced to remain unisured, or pay extortion level prices to these companies.
If you ask me, in no way, shape, or form, should profit EVER be put in front of keeping people healthy.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
If profit wasn't at the front of the health insurance business, health insurance wouldn't exist.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
"If profit wasn't at the front of the health insurance business, health insurance wouldn't exist."
Are you suggesting there can be no such thing as a not-for-profit insurance company where most of the money goes to payouts and the rest goes to paying its employees and other operational costs?
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
This can exist, however, it takes a concerted effort on the part of the employees to take a wage that is not competitive when compared to a for-profit insurance company. This is great when independantly undertaken.
St. Jude's is a great example of this. I recommend donating to them.
http://www.stjude.org/about
However, history has shown that when federally umbrellaed, an organization stagnates. Look no further than the USPS, DMVs, Congress, etc.
Higly motivated and skilled people either work to make money (for-profit insurance), or work to help others (not-for profit insurance). Federally controlling healthcare via a single payer system allows a third tier of person to get involved: the non-motivated secure-job seeking bureaucrat.
I personally prefer my docs to be either of the former two.
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
I'm no lawyer, but it seems to me that "for profit" versus "not for profit" status has more to do with how much money the people who don't work make (shareholders) than with how much money the people who do work make (employees). CEO's of not-for-profit corporations can actually make quite a lot of money.
Not-for-profit doesn't mean "not enough to make a living".
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Thank you - you said it better than I could have, especially this tired. I didn't even try.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
That pretty much sums it up, yes.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
And thats the problem, now, isn't it? Why is it considered OK to make money off of people who are oftentimes going through difficult times and could quite possibly be facing thier own mortality? That, to me, just seems to be absolutely horrible.
You, and others here, might not quite understand what its like, not being able to afford proper healthcare, without fear of going bankrupt. Let me give you an idea, as I am currently living it.
Every time I get sick, I worry. What happens if this requires medical attention, or medicine? How long can I go without it, before it will permanently affect my health, or even kill me?
Every time I injure myself, (and trust me, I play a LOT of sports, and injure myself fairly often) I have to question whether or not I can fix this myself. I've splinted my broken fingers before, in the hopes they heal correctly, and I'm not stuck with a permanently malformed bone. I've even popped in a dislocated shoulder, before, and who knows how much damage I did to myself, there..
There has even been a time where I've passed in and out of conciousness from a concussion, yet refused to let my girlfriend call 911, because it would have bankrupted me.
Now the real question: Is it really Ok to let someone like me live like this, in constant FEAR of having something happen to me that I can't fix, myself? Is it ok that if such a should ever happen to me, that I'd have to be filing for bankruptsy the next day? Is there not something FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG with the idea that only people who can afford it are allowed to live?
If you ask me, nobody should ever be forced to PAY for healthcare as they need it. Yes, the costs have to come from somewhere, and I am ALL for paying more taxes in order to help foot the bill.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
So who pays for your risky sports? Who pays the ER docs? The nurses? Who pays for millions of dollars of bleeding edge research into live-saving drugs and medical tech?
Obviously not you. You are pretty frivously free with other people's time and money. If you live in the US, you will not be refused ER treatment, period. Even if you can't pay for it, the docs will still save your life, because it's illegal to refuse treatment to the uninsured. Because of this, you have uninsured masses bankrupting ER depts nationwide with non-emergent care.
So yeah, health insurance company's are totally evil because they want to help people pay for their medical needs, pay docs and nurses, while keeping themselves employed in the process.
The solution is not single-payer non-competitive bullshit. I know, I know ER, House, and General Hospital have brainwashed people into thinking big insurance is the devil, and the poor, overworked ER docs need the 'free' money the government just prints in big batches to save them.
I will ask it again: Who pays the docs salaries in your fairytale land of "Everyone deserves to get free cutting edge healthcare?"
Oh, and I'd like a pony.
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
This.
The people crying for government health care have obviously never had to deal with anything the government has control over before.
Like, say... the DMV. Which is pretty much how goverment run health care would turn out.
And that's the optimistic take.
People tend to ignore the ugly side of socialized health care. Forefront of those is rationing. There's a limited amount of doctors, nurses, hopsital beds, etc - and when something is perceived as free (it's not, fyi), people are going to use it more often. The problem? There isn't enough to go around. So now, the government gets to decide who gets treatment and who doesn't. Hope you aren't elderly, mentally handicapped, or have an expensive to treat terminal illness.
Nothing is free. Nothing.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Obama himself said that if we were to take on a nationalized sort of plan, it wouldn't be like what England and Canada are doing. It would be based on the system we have now, just more affordable. That being said, any comparisons to the sucesses/failures of those countries' healthcare systems are no longer applicable.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Please re-read this.
People tend to ignore the ugly side of socialized health care. Forefront of those is rationing. There's a limited amount of doctors, nurses, hopsital beds, etc - and when something is perceived as free (it's not, fyi), people are going to use it more often. The problem? There isn't enough to go around. So now, the government gets to decide who gets treatment and who doesn't. Hope you aren't elderly, mentally handicapped, or have an expensive to treat terminal illness.
There's not enough for everybody.
Allow me to say that again.
There. Is. Not. Enough. Health. Care. For. Everybody.
Somebody's going to get shafted. Right now, economics does it. You're suggesting the government get to decide. Bad idea.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Don't you think there is a fundamental issue with that suggestion? Why shouldn't there be enough healthcare for everybody? What not strive for that, as well? Until then, who are you to say that just because someone is struggling, that its ok for them to crawl off and die?
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
What part of this are you not understanding? There aren't enough people in the medical field to take care of everyone. What is the government going to do? Abduct people and force them to go through medical school?
And the situation isn't improving. The last I heard the amount of people going to school for medicine was declining.
Oh, and guess what. Socializing health care is going to make those numbers decline even more rapidly, because the majority of the type of people with the skills and motivation to become doctors are working to make money.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Wow, someone's kind of a dick.
If you noticed, I mentioned that I'd be perfectly willing to pay increased taxes in order to pay for these things. A flat percentaged health care tax would be perfect. Honestly, take an extra 5% income tax from everyone in the nation to pay for this.
Also, I have an issue with this statement: "You are pretty frivously free with other people's time and money. If you live in the US, you will not be refused ER treatment, period. Even if you can't pay for it, the docs will still save your life, because it's illegal to refuse treatment to the uninsured."
First of all, I am not frivolous with ANY money. I work damn hard for the meager salary I am payed, and just because it doesn't quite cover everything people like you can apparently easily afford doesn't mean that I should be relagated to the lifestyle I currently live, which is one of fear of going bankrupt due to the rediculous cost of health care in the first place. I'm not arguing that they won't save you if you can't pay, my argument is that by doing so, they will have pretty much fucked your life over anyways, considering the mountain of debt you'd be stuck under.
Try living my life for a year. Try living in fear of being in a car accident or something else that requires a hospital stay, or, God Forbid, surgery. Just because YOU can afford it, and just because YOU enjoy paying rediculous fees for 7 hour ER visits (Not much better than the wait in England, I'm sure) doesn't mean I can or do.
The fact is that there are people who exist in this world who flat out can't afford healthcare, and who are YOU to say that they should be required to choose between thier economic livelyhood or thier physical livelyhood?
Edit: Also, way to totally (and dickishly) assume I watch E.R, and House. First of all, I rarely, if ever, watch anything other than Sports, News, and the occasional Educational Show. Second of all, of the few episodes of those that I have seen, I've not seen ANYTHING dealing with insurance, National Healthcare, or anything of that sort.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
He said "people" - not you, explicitly. He wasn't being a dick, but you sure are. So, well, yeah. I guess *someone* is being kind of a dick. And hell, I'm tired and cranky so I'll reciprocate.
And who are YOU to say someone else has to pay for their health care? The world's a cruel place. Maybe they made poor choices. Maybe they were just unlucky bastards. It's a damn shame. But their time would be better spent looking for a way to improve their situation than begging for a handout.
As I said in my other post, nothing is free. Socialized health care is a mistake, plain and simple.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Yes, I am a dick. Hence, the "pony" line.
If you think health insurance is THAT important, get off the internet and make more money. More taxes is your solution? How does that help anyone afford anything? So because I have the confidence in myself to find a way to make ends meet no matter what the world shits on me, I am a greedy, ignorant Conservative?
If I truly cannot find a way to make enough money to pay for my healthcare, I know there are plenty of chairties out there that will take care of my family. Good people are always willing to donate to the truly needy, as am I. The issue gets muddied when an intermediary decides who is needy. Let me spend my own cash where I want.
I simply refuse to allow the bloated Federal Government to run the healthcare industry for me. Pissing money into a black hole isn't my idea of rationality. Tell you what, you take the 5% of your salary that you willingly would give to a single-payer plan, put it in a savings account for 2% interest, don't touch it for several years. Suddenly you have enough cash to pay for anything but the most rare and expensive treatments. Oh, that takes initiative, drive, self-reliance, and intelligence. Scratch that. Modern America wants spoon fed and easy solutions to complex problems.
I'm still waiting on my pony.
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
You still haven't informed me exactly why it is ok to get rich off of denying people healthcare. While your opinion is founded on the greedy idea that "My money is mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine!" And thats fine, for the most part, except for the fact that sometimes the good of society outweighs the wants of an individual.
Yes, you earned your money, and that is a valid argument, but others in the country work just as hard, if not harder, for less. And the problem arises when more and more people are sick and dying because the insurance companies all decide that they aren't enough of a sure thing to get rich off of.
It then becomes nothing but greed. You are esentially saying that its Ok to let these companies decide who can live or die. Its Ok to force people into the choice of eating or mending a broken bone. That is a HUGE issue, and one that can't necessarily be fixed by telling people to work harder.
The issue is with the insurance companies themselves, and thier drives to make a larger and larger profit off of a shrinking number of people who can actually afford health-care, or are deemed a small enough risk.
If you ask me, I'd rather live in a society where EVERYONE gets the health-care the need, not just the people who can afford it. And I'd be willing to pay my fair share to ensure that world, even if I were to become a millionaire, I'd still be more than willing to pay that 5%. In fact, I'd be GLAD to know that my money is going to help people who wouldn't have been able to afford it otherwise.
To think that its OK that people are suffering, just so you can keep a minute percentage more of your money, is nothing but greed at it's worst.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Read the US Constitution. The money I make is mine. This is not greed. If you think I should invest it in a healthcare system, please convince me.
But telling me cute stories about your fear of getting sick just doesn't do it.
I have no rational interest in ficticious "sick people," who can't pay for healthcare. I do however pay much more for my health insurance than 5% of my salary, because it goes into a plan with my co-workers, whom I do have a rational-self interest about. I don't mind funding their healthcare, if they get sick and I dont, because the risk outweighs the expense. If I see them abusing the system, I can easily stop paying into the insurance and buy my own (for much more, because I am now a higher-risk).
But taking that to the Nth level (Federal), absents me with any oversight on how my money gets spent.
Insurance companies don't get rich off of dying people, they get rich off of healthy people who pay into accounts to ward off risk (OK), refusing overly expensive procedures that have little chance of success (grey area), pulling coverage for pre-existing conditions (grey area), selling people drugs they don't need (restless legs syndrome? WTF), and they get rich by securing tax breaks from big-government types.
You missed the point of my "pony" gag.
You essentially are arguing, "Gimme a pony!"
I am pointing out that ponies aren't free, and current plans by idiots in the US government can't make it so.
The naivete of the general populace astounds me at times.
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
~~All Knowledge is Worth Having~~
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
I think, as I alluded to in another post, at this point he's asking for a unicorn.
Probably one that breathes fire and has laser death vision.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
As epic as that would be, I'm only asking that people are provided with affordable healthcare.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
So what is stopping you from getting on Medicade? We already have a wellfare system for people who cannot afford services through private businesses.
The problem with nationalizing the healthcare system is that there are people who can afford healthcare that are perfectly happy with what they are offered. I myself would not trade my healthcare for a government run one. For one, I don't pay a dime up front. My employer pays all the monthly fees for it. I am only responsible for the copays and deductables for services rendered. It is a much better solution than the one I was paying for at my last job.
Under a government run health plan, instead of paying $0 in monthly payments for my healthcare, I would be paying 5% (to use your numbers) of my monthly pay to cover my health care. I seriously doubt that any such plan would be 100% free at services rendered, I would still be paying a copay/deductable. So I would actually be paying more for similar or possibly less service. Why would I want to do that? Even if it was 100% no money out of pocket when services were rendered, I could still be paying more money into the system than I am currently paying. So what is the benefit for me here?
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
OK Game Devs
Random Tower
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
"Under a government run health plan, instead of paying $0 in monthly payments for my healthcare, I would be paying 5% (to use your numbers) of my monthly pay to cover my health care."
There's no such thing as a free lunch. The money your employer pays to your insurance company is still coming from somewhere, and I'm willing to bet it's not from the pockets of investors and highly paid executives.
Perhaps the fact that the expense is invisible to you makes you feel better, but that doesn't mean it doesn't lead to a reduction in the amount of money you'd otherwise make.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Did I say my health care was free? No. I said I don't pay anything for it. Of course my employer pays the whole monthly premium. I am not stupid. I know how it works. What I was saying is that I, as in myself, do not pay any money out of pocket towards the monthly payments for my insurance, but under a government run insurance plan, I would be. So why trade my no monthly payment healthcare for a monthly payment health care plan?
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
OK Game Devs
Random Tower
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
I understand that you pay no money out of your own pocket, but that doesn't mean you're not paying for it at all.
I'm saying you end up paying for it either way, either directly through out of pocket expenses (which you detest) or indirectly through lower income (which you don't notice). I'm saying that your "no monthly payment" healthcare is little more than an illusion, as it is far more likely your company's owners would rather cut your pay than cut into their profits in order to pay for your medical insurance.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
1. I never said I detest paying a monthly payment. I just said that I would not trade my lack of a monthly payment for a tax to pay for my health care.
2. I get paid a salary that falls right around average for someone of my skillset and experience. So I actually bring more home than those who do pay a monthly payment for their insurance.
3. If I were offered a new job that paid more but required me to pay a monthly payment for my health insurance, as long as the take home pay after taxes and my portion for benefits were taken out was considerable more than what I currently bring home, I would switch jobs.
So what is the "illusion"? I pay no monthly payments for just as good coverage as those who have to pay a monthly payment. I bring home the same or more monthly income of those with similar skillsets and experience. I see no illusion nor any need to switch to a government run health care system that I have to pay for regardless of whether I want to use it or not.
Personally, I like the Libertarian solution to the healthcare system. Provide a tax credit to individuals for the money they pay for health insurance and health care expenses. It keeps health care private and provides support to the people to afford their healthcare.
E. Zachary Knight
Oklahoma City Chapter of the ECA
http://www.theeca.com/chapters_oklahoma
E. Zachary Knight
Divine Knight Gaming
OK Game Devs
Random Tower
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
"2. I get paid a salary that falls right around average for someone of my skillset and experience. So I actually bring more home than those who do pay a monthly payment for their insurance."
That you "bring more home" is just another way of saying that you are better compensated than those who have the same salary but no medical insurance. If competing companies were to offer similar compensation tomorrow, your own company would have to either raise your salary or offer you additional benefits in order to remain ahead of the competition. Likewise, if medical insurance were removed from the equation, it would have no choice but to compete on salary and other benefits.
It's entirely possible that if relieved of the burden of paying your medical insurance your company would not raise your salary by a single penny, in which case you could honestly claim you were paying absolutely nothing for your medical insurance. If, however, being relieved of such a burden would lead your company to raise your salary, the cost to you for the medical insurance would have been the extra salary you weren't getting as an employee when your company was paying for your medical insurance.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Employers began offering healthcare coverage to employees as a way to attract and keep good employees, not because of some government mandate. The healthcare coverage my employer provided for me was not free, in any sense. It is a part of my compensation package. I work for that healthcare coverage. It's not free. It is actually much more valuable to my family and to me than just the dollar cost by which it may reduce my paycheck.
Just one of the many problems with government run healthcare is going to be that even if my employer continues to offer me insurance, guess what? I'm still going to be paying that 5% of my salary to Feds to pay other folks healthcare.
And then there's the myth that no one will deny me treatment based on cost. That is still going to happen in the USA because it happens in socialized medicine states everywhere all the time. But instead of being determined by an insurer, it will be determined by a government beaureuacrat who needs to be able to keep client costs down because he doesn't want to risk his or her position being downsized in the ever-increasing bureaucracy bloat that will develop to "manage" health care.
If anything health care insurance has driven UP the cost of healthcare because it can create a potentially bottomless deep pocket of money supply for care providers. That combined with the fear of liability (which causes more tests than absolutely necessary to be ordered) and the ever-expanding need for non-medical staff and technicians to fill out forms and fulfill those tests right there in the doctor's offices has bloated up medical practices with semi-necessary people.
We have plenty of doctors. More than enough. What we need are fewer specialists and more general practitioners. We probably don't need as many hospitals, surgical centers, and imaging centers as the ones that are cropping up. And we need to address the whole issue of medical liability and malpractice so that our care providers don't have to take out massive amounts of malpractice insurance.
--Verbinator
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
It also doesn't change the fact that his current health plan is almost certainly far better than anything the government would provide.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
And, unfortunately, that would be the sacrifice that some of the more affluent members of society would have to make. Im not saying that there isn't cost associated with health care, Im saying that the cost would necessarily be shouldered by the people who can afford it.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Except we're not talking about the "affluent" members of society. We're talking about middle class, even lower middle class families, with health insurance.
Y'know... the masses.
Not that it'd be ok even if it *was* just the wealthy.
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
It would be epic, wouldn't it. What would you feed it though? :D
Re: Online Game Promotes Single-Payer Healthcare System
Im thinking bears.. I want a Bear eating, fire-breathing, death-beaming, FLYING, unicorn..
Make it happen!
(Completely unrelated to the healthcare argument.. I totally want one of these, now.)