Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on Amazon

May 29, 2009 -

Is this the next RapeLay controversy?

Although interactive DVDs aren't traditionally thought of as video games, they would appear to fall into something of a gray area between movies and games.

That may be an academic argument, but, in lodging a new protest against online retailer Amazon.com, woman-centric website Feministing treats Stockholm: An Exploration of True Love as a video game:

it looks like another game involving violence against women seems to have"slipped" past [Amazon's] radar. "Stockholm: An Exploration of True Love" is a game that allows the user to experience,

    "...a terrifyingly vivid exploration of Stockholm Syndrome, a psychological condition in which a captive falls in love with her kidnapper. And you play the part of the kidnapper. With a limited number of options, you must figure out how to make her fall in love with you."

This includes using poison gas on the victim, sexually assaulting her and using psychological abuse against her in efforts to make her "love" you. Unbelievable.

While RapeLay was offered by a third-party reseller on Amazon, Stockholm appears to shipping direct from the online retailer's inventory.


Comments

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

I think you probably put it better (to some degree I was needling the other poster on his wording, which was a bit straw-man-ish).  Nonetheless, post Mike-Dukakis, I'd be surprised to find politicians on either side of the aisle who are mainstream, successful politicians who would argue against hard time for rapists.  Then again, perhaps I'm wrong, and certainly willing to examine any examples provided.  I think some might argue that treatment program could be a useful addition, but are any actually suggesting that rapists be set free with treatment only and NO jail time?

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

The closest I have ever heard to that (and this was in passing, so don't bet the ranch on it) was that the treatment be augumented with time in a psychatric facility instead of a prison. Or let off early with counseling and chemical castration.

 

I believe the mind of a rapist is very warped, but I don't exactly put it on par with, say, schizophrenia.

---- hc svnt dracones

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Apples and oranges: A rapist chose to commit an atrocious act against another human being. Warped, yes - but perfectly rational. Just evil.

A schizophrenic isn't in full control of his or her mental faculties. Schizophrenics can and do commit crimes, but often they are driven to it by delusions and hallucinations. They can't help it, and in fact, it's an illness that can be treated.

There's no cure for being an evil raping bastard.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Unless they believe the rapist to have other mental issues that contributed to their proclitivities. Which is a distinict possibility- an extremely abberant childhood could be the answer as well; there are people who believe it's a woman job's to sleep with her husband, however she feels, and if she doesn't, she's 'wrong'.

---- hc svnt dracones

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

That's still about forcing a person to have sex against their will.  If a husband raped his wife, it's still encroaching on her rights to do with her own body as she pleases.  And that doesn't even have anything to do with a "mental issue."  I mean, if someone with a psychological disorder rapes someone, then you might have an arguement that they deserve treatment over punishment.  But your example is just about someone having an opinion.

To be honest, your example doesn't even make sense as a counterarguement.  I would cry "strawman," but I usually use the term wrong.  Please take a few minutes to think about your responses before hitting "Post Comment."

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Execution might be considered a "cure" to some people...

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Only if you consider execution a cure for bi-polar disorder

----------------------------------------------------

Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

---------------------------------------------------- Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Since when were "bi-polar" and "rapist" considered synonymous?

"HEY! LISTEN!"

"HEY! LISTEN!"

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

They're not I'm just saying execution is a cure for rapist just as much as it is a cure for any other disease or state of mind or whatever.

----------------------------------------------------

Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

---------------------------------------------------- Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Except that the propensity to rape is not, in and of itself, indicative of any mental deficency (rather than disease, per say). There may be underlying issues, but being a rapist does not exclude you from punishment on the grounds that you are unable to discern right and wrong, much as a schizophrenic might. And I doubt being bi-polar is much of a defence either.

---- hc svnt dracones

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

I'm not comparing the two I'm just saying that if execution can be considered a cure for the common rapist than it can considered a cure for anything.

----------------------------------------------------

Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

---------------------------------------------------- Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Unless you put "cure" in quotations, in which case you're probably not literally implying it's a cure.

Fine.  For the literal minded, I was trying to say we should kill rapists, in a joking manner.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

"STOCKHOLM" - A guide for creeps, stalkers, and pedophiles on how to psychologically torture a person into loving you.  Brought to you by the makers of "Boom!" a step by step tuturorial for developing pipe bombs, and "Hush," a how-to guide for making infantcide look like an accident!

Because free speech doesn't need to be used responsibly.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Am I the only one who instantly thought of the "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" episode when he said Hush?

/hangs head in shame

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

I'm a huge Joss fan, so now I'm ashamed that I inadverantly linked the awesome Buffy series to baby murder in the mind of another fan.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Meh, I'll get over it :P

That was an awesome episode, though.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

I'd invest in that.  Kinda like Rosetta Stone, but for the future criminal!

"HEY! LISTEN!"

"HEY! LISTEN!"

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

I've said it before, but this info needs to get out there- the feminist movement has devolved into little more than a gender oriented hate group. I refuse to listen to anything they have to say as much as I would listen to the KKK complain.

http://www.deltabravo.net/custody/quotes.php

http://eve.enviroweb.org/perspectives/issues/bodies.html

http://womensspace.wordpress.com/2008/01/27/carnival-of-radical-feminist-anti-pornography/#comment-83129

http://womensspace.wordpress.com/2006/05/19/why-feminists-should-boycott-mothers-day/

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Similarly, have you heard of this Jack Thompson guy? He used to be lawyer. He says crazy stuff. The lawyer movement has devolved into little more than a hate group. I refuse to listen to anything a lawyer has to say as much as I would listen to the KKK complain.

 

 

 

http://www.popularculturegaming.com

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Apples and Oranges.  One is a proffession.  The other is a life paradigm. 

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Fine, then what about using Jacko's comments to say you won't listen to any Christians?

The point I'm trying to make is that you can find isolated examples of extremism everywhere. Pick a group and you can find some people that are full of hate. To say then that the entire group is full of hate is an absurd oversimplification.

 

 

 

http://www.popularculturegaming.com

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

You could say the same about the KKK...

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Except that the most moderate KKK member is still a member of a group about hatred. Feminism is not a group about hatred.

 

 

http://www.popularculturegaming.com

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

See my links above.  Also try dating a feminist/women's studies major.  I did it in college, and she gave me a window into the hate that the movement professes.  She (and her peers) were utterly preoccupied with hating men, so much so that the very notion of having a boyfriend was a source of intense personal debate (and don't even get me started on her bizarre sexual hangups).  It has become so bad that many women won't even call themselves "feminists" because of how much the radical elements have come to dominate it. 

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Out of curiousity, have you ever taken a women's studies course? And what bizarre sexual hangups?

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

My first 2 expository writing courses in undergrad were taught at the women's campus by women's studies profs.  Ever topic and required reading in both covered ideas like how men are naturally predisposed to act violently- especially toward women- as a normal sexual predisposition.  Other subjects covered how western society is breeding a "rape culture", which resulted in the famous "one in four men are rapists" idea.

As for some of the sexual hangups- one ex GF in particular refused to be on the bottom because "true" feminists would never let a man be on top.  She also would get super-pissed at herself every time we had sex because she would feel like she was taken advantage of- even if she was the one who asked first!  And that is nothing to say of how pissed she would get if she caught me checking her out- she claimed it "objectified" her. 

Between that and my misadventures as an employee of the univeristy I attended, I got to see a very, very ugly side of feminism. 

Humanism > Feminism.  Because equality is about everyone- not elevating one group to sainthood and demonizing another. 

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

...I don't want it to seem like I'm trolling you or anything, quantum, but I think the use of "Out of curiousity" is a misnomer when applied to the questions you follow up with.  Maybe a phrase like, "Hey, I really don't care about the answer to the question I'm about to ask, I just want to have some clout to prove you wrong, so..."  That seems a bit more reasonable, no?  ^^

"HEY! LISTEN!"

"HEY! LISTEN!"

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

I think it's relevant to find out, since he brought it up, what exactly "sexual hangups" he feels that feminism instilled in his girlfriend, why they're hangups and not valid choices, and what he thinks about the idea that one person should judge the sexuality of another.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Is it such a crime, to judge based on observation? The only crime is when you act on bad information.

"HEY! LISTEN!"

"HEY! LISTEN!"

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

But feminism is NOT a hate group. It's not even a "group" but rather an umbrella term, under which is several organizations. It's its sub-divisions that are hate groups. Where as the KKK is not an umbrella term, but an actual orgazation.

Third Wave Feminism still has some rationale with in it, but those who actually speak intelligently within it are often criticized and struck down by the rest who want female superiority or whatever asinine goal.

To simply disregard the whole thing because it is overflowing of idiots is foolish in itself, because you are also  being rid of the intelligent arguments, by people who are reasonable and thoughtful. And yes, they are there.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

I've taken classes in women's studies. All of my female friends call themselves feminists and all my female professors do as well. None of them hate men, not even the lesbians.

 

http://www.popularculturegaming.com

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Yes.  Ignore even the reasonable complaints just because you're tired of listening to a few vocal extremists on on the fringes of the movement.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

No compromises.  If a humanist group that is concerned with the well-being of all people (regardless of race, gender, etc) came out with the same concern, then I would care to listen.  Not so from a hate group- they reap what they sow.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Because everyone WITHIN said humanist group MUST have the same opinions regarding all things.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

No, do the opposite.  Don't ignore the reasonable complaints, but treat them with scrutiny because such vocal extremists exist in the first place.

"HEY! LISTEN!"

"HEY! LISTEN!"

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

No, that's too rational.  Zerodash has it right, listen to no one!

If the Westburo Baptists protest soldier funerals and praise the deaths of distaster victims, then refuse to listen to any Christian whatsoever.  If a terrorist claims jihad, condemn the rest of the 1 billion+ Islamists.  If that Andrew guy wants to eat fried rat on his tv show, then don't watch ANY Travel Channel shows.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Your nonsense is perfectly sensical!  NEED MOAR INTOLLERANCE!

"HEY! LISTEN!"

"HEY! LISTEN!"

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

*headdesk* Seriously, are people just digging for things to be offended about?

I remember I think over a year ago, 25 to Life came out. As crappy as it was, it would have died a quick death on shelves, but no. Some thin skinnedm orla crusader discovered it, made a huge stink, and gave the game moderate success.

These peopel are just repeating the process.

Rapelay would have remained under the radar, 25 to Life would have remaiend udner the radar, this would have remained under the radar, but no, some thing skinned person had to mkae a stink over it and giveit more publicity.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Hey, I thought I'd comment on a couple of things I found problematic about your post.

"*headdesk* Seriously, are people just digging for things to be offended about?"

Firstly, it's not necessary to "dig" for things that have really messed up sexist undertones (or overtones, for that matter). They sort of come to us.

Secondly, "be offended"? Please. The undertone of *your* post is that "being offended" is something people just do because they get something out of "being offended." Personally, it would cause me no end of joy if people stopped doing messed up sexist, racist and any other -ist you care to name things.

I'm not sure what you think people get out of speaking up about *isms, but I can tell you the main thing people *do* get out of it: the hope that in future people will be able to produce work that has fewer messed up *ist issues in them. Critiques of things can help make a better thing the next time around. Speaking up about something and getting screamed at by huge numbers of defensive privileged people is not something that people just do for fun.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

At the same time, complaining frequently and about trivial matters dilutes the strength of your protests when something truly deserving of protest comes along.  Also, you undermine your own position when you make assumptions, such as the one at the end of your post where you assume everyone "screaming" and "getting defensive" about this a member of a privileged class.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

To address the easy part,

 "... where you assume everyone "screaming" and "getting defensive" about this a member of a privileged class."

Quoting from my post:

"... getting screamed at by huge numbers of defensive privileged people..."

As you can see, nowhere did I say that only privileged people can scream and get defensive. If your protest is that I didn't mention other people, then okay, I can accept that. I absolutely agree that people who aren't in the privileged class can disagree with a critique, and can do so in the same defensive ways as a lot of privileged people do.

Back to the idea that it "dilutes" anything, I have to emphatically disagree with you. The point of critique is to expose problems in the work. This means that authors/artists/(preferred noun here) can avoid those problems in future.

Multiple critiques aren't "diluted" - on the contrary, they let us see common themes and problems that appear over and over, giving us more insight into how to avoid them. :)

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Multiple critiques aren't "diluted" - on the contrary, they let us see common themes and problems that appear over and over, giving us more insight into how to avoid them. :)

Jack Thompson agrees.  That sez it all.

---

I once had a dream about God. In it, he was looking down upon the planet and the havoc we recked and he said unto us, "Damn Kids get off my lawn!"

I once had a dream about God. In it, he was looking down upon the planet and the havoc we recked and he said unto us, "Damn Kids get off my lawn!"

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

 I'm really unclear on what you think Jack Thompson agrees with me about. I haven't seen him critique much, but admittedly I haven't been paying all that much attention to him. :)

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

"Multiple critiques aren't "diluted" - on the contrary, they let us see common themes and problems that appear over and over, giving us more insight into how to avoid them. :)"

When a non-trivial number of your protests are about easily debunked or downright ridiculous topics, yes, it absolutely does dilute the remaining legitimate arguments.  While it's not an absolute, the odds of "picking a losing fight" go up as you protest an increasing number of topics.  Again, I'm not saying it's a guarantee, but a statistical probability if you're not very careful.

Also, there have been a number of demonstrably poor arguments that feminists groups (and other "activist" groups, for that matter) have made against video games and other topics of offense.  I don't dismiss something just because I hear it from, say, the PTC, but I will certainly take it with a good bit of skepticism while I look into the matter, because the PTC has a proven track record of hollow propaganda and supporting its own arguments with false or misleading information.  If they didn't have such a history, it'd give more weight to their current arguments.

This becomes especially true when dealing with subjects that are inherently subjective.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

Your whole argument boils down to a silencing tactic. "If you bring up something that privileged people don't like, privileged people might not listen to you about a hypothetical something that's more important to you!" I'm sure you can see why I'm not going to let that affect my actions, and why I won't suggest people hold off on valid critique because of it.

It's misdirection, nothing more.

 

 

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

I suppose you are not familiar with the story of the boy who cried wolf...

The problem is not that feminists (or whoever) are criticizing the games, it's that they blow it so far out of proportion, acting like it's the end of the world if these pixels over here make naughty with those pixels over there.  By getting so hysterical over such trivial, unimportant, silly things, it will tend to make people dismiss your hysterics even when they happen to be about something genuinely bad.

I'm not saying you should be "silenced", or that you can't criticize things, I'm just saying you should keep it reasonable, stop with the hyperbole, quit making mountains out of molehills.  Games like this and Rapelay are not the end of civilization.  They do not deserve to be taken so seriously.  Treat them like the trash they are, make your critique if you must, and let them be swept into the rubbish bin of history.  By launching such a tirade against the game, all you do is give the game the support of people who react strongly to what they perceive as attempts at censorship.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

 I'm not sure who you think is blowing what out of proportion, here. I see some commentary on one website and then on this website I see a bunch of people screaming about how people who think women should be equal to men (feminists) are wrong and horrible and should shut up because they said something you don't like about a game/interactive DVD/whatever.

If anyone is blowing anything out of proportion, it would seem to be you and some other commenters.

It is true that some people on feministing react pretty strongly to this game's existence. I'd suggest trying to see where they're coming from; as far as I know, nobody has appointed you as the arbiter of what people can and cannot care about, and I'm very curious as to why you think their opinion of the game is invalid but your opinion that they should shut up and stop stating their opinion is not invalid.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

I should just have this saved somewhere so I can C&P it whenever a "feminist" issue comes up on this site and we inevitably get to this point.

"I see a bunch of people screaming about how people who think women should be equal to men (feminists) are wrong and horrible"

Something that all modern "feminists" need to recognize is that whatever the term may have meant at the time of its inception, it has grown and evolved (much like the movement itself).  There are multiple schools of thought and multiple groups that currently identify themselves as "feminists", and they do NOT all agree with each other.  Some are all about perfect equality between the genders.  And you know the funny thing?  Most guys out there agree with this.  Do you know why they get so uncomfortable or aggressive when faced with the word "feminism"?

It's because there are other groups out there claiming the same title, who are, quite honestly, full of shit when they claim to want equality.  Like most stereotypes, the "man-hating militant feminazi" was born from a seed of truth.  And you know what's worse?

They're the loud ones.  The squeaky wheels.  So you combine a small but very vocal group that espouses these ideas, combine it with a myriad of attacks on gaming (some of which are blatantly invalid), and you have a recipe for severe distrust and antagonism whenever someone waving the same banner as that group comes by with an attack of their own, legitimate or not.

tl;dr version: the word "feminist" is so overloaded at this point in time that it can be a harmful way to self-identify when entering into a potentially volatile debate.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

 "They're the loud ones.  The squeaky wheels.  So you combine a small but very vocal group that espouses these ideas, combine it with a myriad of attacks on gaming (some of which are blatantly invalid), and you have a recipe for severe distrust and antagonism whenever someone waving the same banner as that group comes by with an attack of their own, legitimate or not."

No. Just no.

Feminism is and has always been about equality. If you didn't know that before, you do now. IMO, the correct response to finding that out is, "Oh. I didn't realise that; sorry for the confusion."

Frankly, if someone is going to dismiss everything I have to say because they think their idea of "feminist" meaning "misandrist" is more important than actually engaging with the topic then I don't want to talk to them in the first place.

And no, they're not the loud ones. They're the ones people like to pretend are loud to deflect valid critique.

Re: Feminists Outraged by Interactive DVD Available on ...

You keep telling yourself that, and the majority of society will continue to follow the path I just predicted.  It IS a loaded term.  I'm not making this up; I mostly came to this realization AFTER talking with a friend who IS a "self-identified feminist".

And once again, since you seem to be willfully ignoring it, I have never once said that I'm going to "dismiss everything you have to say", I said that anything you claim under the banner of feminism is going to be initially viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism because of the history of (sometimes!) frivolous attacks associated with it.

"And no, they're not the loud ones. They're the ones people like to pretend are loud to deflect valid critique."

That's pretty sad denial right there.  Maybe for someone who surrounds herself in the "good" kind of feminism, it's hard to see.  For most of us on the outside...

No.  Just no.

 
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Andrew EisenWhen I write about these massacres, I don't use the shooter's name or picture. I'm not saying everyone has to play it that way but that's how I prefer to do it.10/25/2014 - 12:44am
Andrew EisenYep, it's why the news media stopped spotlighting numbnuts who run out on the field during sporting events.10/25/2014 - 12:01am
Matthew Wilsonin media research its called the copycat effect. it simply says that if the news covers one mass shooting shooter, it increases the likelihood of another person going on a mass shooting.10/25/2014 - 12:00am
Andrew EisenAgreed. It bugs me that I know the names, faces and personal histories of a bunch of mass shooters but I couldn't tell you the name of or recognize a photo of a single one of their victims.10/24/2014 - 11:51pm
AvalongodAgree with Quiknkold. @Mecha...if that worked we would have figured out how to prevent these long ago.10/24/2014 - 11:32pm
MechaCrashUnfortunately, you have to focus on the perpetrator to figure out the whys so you can try to prevent it from happening again.10/24/2014 - 10:55pm
quiknkoldpoor girl. poor victims. rather focus on them then the shooter. giving too much thought to the monster takes away from the victims.10/24/2014 - 10:15pm
Andrew EisenFor what it's worth, early reports are painting the motive as "he was pissed that a particular girl wouldn't date him."10/24/2014 - 10:12pm
quiknkoldwell then I suck as a man cause I ask for help when necessary :P10/24/2014 - 10:07pm
Technogeek(That said, mostly I was making the smartass evopsych comment because your post seemed like the kind of just-so story that has come to dominate 99% of its usage.)10/24/2014 - 10:04pm
TechnogeekHell, Liam Neeson built his modern career around it. Cultural factors likely play a far greater role than you appear willing to admit.10/24/2014 - 10:03pm
TechnogeekSeriously, though, the idea of "because women are protectors and that's why they never commit school shootings" is, at best, grossly overreductive. There's nothing inherently feminine about being willing to kill in order to protect one's offspring.10/24/2014 - 10:03pm
MechaCrashThe "toxic masculinity" thing refers to how you have to SUCK IT UP AND BE A MAN because seeking help is seen as weakness, which means you suck at manliness, so it builds and builds and builds until something finally snaps.10/24/2014 - 10:01pm
quiknkoldthere, I'm done. And thats what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown10/24/2014 - 9:54pm
quiknkoldand I am not spouting Evopsych, technogeek. tbh I never heard the phrase till you said it. I'm going off my observations.10/24/2014 - 9:54pm
quiknkoldmoreover, the guy who did this isnt even white. He was native american according to the news report I read. Also that he went for a specific target. That's a much different picture than a certain Sandy Hook guy who will not be named10/24/2014 - 9:53pm
quiknkoldbut I am also certain nobody in their right mind is committing these shootings singing the Machoman song. these are sick individuals who have given up on life10/24/2014 - 9:51pm
Technogeekevopsych lol10/24/2014 - 9:49pm
quiknkoldWhen you suffer from mental illness, youre more likely to go by instinct. yes. I came off as sexist.10/24/2014 - 9:46pm
quiknkoldmore on somthing they are fixated on. Post Partum Depression is an example. This is why a woman is less likely to go off on a rampage.10/24/2014 - 9:44pm
 

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