G4's Adam Sessler Slams Left 4 Dead 2 Whiners
G4's Adam Sessler Slams Left 4 Dead 2 Whiners
June 18, 2009
The unexpected gamer protest against Valve's E3 announcement of Left 4 Dead 2 has left more than a few obervers perplexed.
Add the name of G4's Adam Sessler to the list of those who don't get what the whining is about. On his latest Soapbox segment Sessler takes the L4D2 protesters to task:
We're going down that path again - this shocking, amazing sense of entitlement that always manifests itself in the gaming community... Valve does not have a habit of screwing people and if there was ever a developer out there I would just kind of give them the benefit of the doubt...
They don't owe you anything. It's a business... Where were you brought up and in what environment where you hugged so overwhelmingly that you feel that you need to be served as the only person that needs to be considered when other people are making commercial properties? It really is a little bit on the naive side and slightly embarrassing... It's kind of juvenile... The Internet, when it comes to games, can be such a nation of whiners...
Via: Gaming Today
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Posted 03/21/10 at 02:13pm
hayabusa75: Who's Keefer?
hayabusa75: Who's Keefer?
Posted 03/21/10 at 01:58pm
ZippyDSMlee: Wow JD is on a tear he's almost filled the shout box up :P
ZippyDSMlee: Wow JD is on a tear he's almost filled the shout box up :P
Posted 03/21/10 at 12:12pm
JDKJ: DarkSaber: Keefer says he's sorry he put that merciless ass-whupping on you and hopes you'll return to assume your responsibilities as Resident GamePolitics Troll.
JDKJ: DarkSaber: Keefer says he's sorry he put that merciless ass-whupping on you and hopes you'll return to assume your responsibilities as Resident GamePolitics Troll.
Posted 03/21/10 at 09:10am
JDKJ: BREAKING: Skippy, the Bush Kangaroo, to meet with House Democrat Caucus in effort to win over undecided votes for health care reform bill.
JDKJ: BREAKING: Skippy, the Bush Kangaroo, to meet with House Democrat Caucus in effort to win over undecided votes for health care reform bill.
Posted 03/21/10 at 09:02am
JDKJ: BREAKING: Angry mobs of duckbill platypus march on Sydney in opposition to appointment of Skippy, the Bush Kangaroo.
JDKJ: BREAKING: Angry mobs of duckbill platypus march on Sydney in opposition to appointment of Skippy, the Bush Kangaroo.
Posted 03/21/10 at 08:56am
JDKJ: Of 437 koala bears surveyed, 420 preferred women with big tits.
JDKJ: Of 437 koala bears surveyed, 420 preferred women with big tits.
Posted 03/20/10 at 10:32pm
Aliasalpha: Ding dong the witch is dead eh? Maybe we'll finally be treated as adults here and women can have small tits again!
Aliasalpha: Ding dong the witch is dead eh? Maybe we'll finally be treated as adults here and women can have small tits again!
Posted 03/20/10 at 10:28pm
JDKJ: Survey says no opinion either way. But approval is high among wombats.
JDKJ: Survey says no opinion either way. But approval is high among wombats.
Posted 03/20/10 at 10:25pm
BearDogg-X: JDKJ: What does the wallabies and crocodiles think of Skippy?
BearDogg-X: JDKJ: What does the wallabies and crocodiles think of Skippy?
Posted 03/20/10 at 10:24pm
Andrew Eisen: Beardogg-X - Not staunchly, no. However, only one AG has gone on record as supporting an R18+ rating. The rest either stated no position or declined to comment.
Andrew Eisen: Beardogg-X - Not staunchly, no. However, only one AG has gone on record as supporting an R18+ rating. The rest either stated no position or declined to comment.
Posted 03/20/10 at 10:23pm
JDKJ: Of 437 koala bears surveyed, 420 disagree with choice of Skippy for interim AG.
JDKJ: Of 437 koala bears surveyed, 420 disagree with choice of Skippy for interim AG.
Posted 03/20/10 at 10:21pm
BearDogg-X: With Atkinson stepping down, the question now becomes was there any other AG besides him that was against R18+? His stepping down does make R18+ more likely to be approved.
BearDogg-X: With Atkinson stepping down, the question now becomes was there any other AG besides him that was against R18+? His stepping down does make R18+ more likely to be approved.
Posted 03/20/10 at 10:18pm
Andrew Eisen: Well, Adelaide readers seem pleased with Atkinson's decision. 420 out of 437.
Andrew Eisen: Well, Adelaide readers seem pleased with Atkinson's decision. 420 out of 437.
Posted 03/20/10 at 10:15pm
JDKJ: BREAKING: Vacant Aussie AG post to be filled by Skippy, the Bush Kangaroo.
JDKJ: BREAKING: Vacant Aussie AG post to be filled by Skippy, the Bush Kangaroo.
Posted 03/20/10 at 10:12pm
Andrew Eisen: Flamespeak - Gamecube and Xbox came out in late 2001 with contollers pretty similar to the Dual Shock. You never know thoug. This Fall may be when the standard controller changes from the Dual Shock to a motion wand. *shudder*
Andrew Eisen: Flamespeak - Gamecube and Xbox came out in late 2001 with contollers pretty similar to the Dual Shock. You never know thoug. This Fall may be when the standard controller changes from the Dual Shock to a motion wand. *shudder*
Posted 03/20/10 at 10:09pm
Flamespeak: at a quicker rate these days.
Flamespeak: at a quicker rate these days.
Posted 03/20/10 at 10:09pm
Flamespeak: I believe that was launched in the first part of 1998. 2 years seems kind of fast too, but then again the world seems to move
Flamespeak: I believe that was launched in the first part of 1998. 2 years seems kind of fast too, but then again the world seems to move
Posted 03/20/10 at 10:05pm
Andrew Eisen: Flamespeak - Not when you consider Sony's been using the same controller since the PS1.
Andrew Eisen: Flamespeak - Not when you consider Sony's been using the same controller since the PS1.
Posted 03/20/10 at 10:03pm
BearDogg-X: Andrew Eisen: I meant that it won't take as many people to change their votes next election. Besides that, it's become a moot point now that he's stepping down as AG as soon as the election's over.
BearDogg-X: Andrew Eisen: I meant that it won't take as many people to change their votes next election. Besides that, it's become a moot point now that he's stepping down as AG as soon as the election's over.
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Comments
I agree with Sessler too.
This was one of the oddest protests I have ever seen.
My Machinima News Parody show Now Loading made fun of the Left 4 Dead "Protesters"
It starts at 2:27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUQjIIRGiQI
http://www.deathvanquished.com
What's your problem? Valve can't make a sequel to it's own game? I mean, yeah, it's too soon in my opinion to make a sequel, but that doesn't mean they can't. They don't owe anyone anything, and don't expect me to believe that L4D2 isn't going to sell like crazy.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Not to mention valve is a company that has never wronged their fans, i doubt it'll be such a simple addon like the whiners complain about.
Never wronged their fans? What about THIS ISSUE? Look, fanboys like you are ten a penny. Do you have to follow the flock your whole life? Try forming your own opinion rather than waiting to see what the herd does.
You all realize we are PROVING Adam's point. When I posted this, we're already at 200+ comments.
WE ARE WHINERS! And we're whining about our right to whine, which I realize isn't truly hypocritical, but still! Listen to us! We're pathetic! And it's not just about L4D2, but about everything!
I really need to get a life...alright, STFUing now.
His point is that gamers should just roll over and accept any crap that the corporations feed to us because it's just business. Not much of a point, but it seems to satisfy the loony fanboys who are his audience.
When do we get a rule whereby if anyone uses the term 'whining' that person automatically loses due to being a sycophant
I think you're being overly harsh- you seem to be going to the opposite extreme when you characterize persons with opposing opinions as sycophants or fanboys. I do agree with what I think is part of your issue.
Arguments accusing persons with other opinions as "whining" or portraying those making them as having a sense of "entitlement" are neither useful nor compelling. It's not just something that happens in this arena- it happens all over, and usually degenerates to ad hominem attacks that don't really contribute to anything in a meaningful way.
The market (ie, voting with your wallet) is not the only way to express dissatisfaction with a particular product, process, law, or anything else. We have these various methods of communication, and I'm not sure why people get so upset when they're used. There are legitimate concerns and criticisms that people have related to the release of the new product. While I don't find them entirely compelling, I don't think it's helpful to denigrate the people making such arguments. Their concerns are no less valid than anyone else's, and deserve to be addressed in a respectful manner. Valve has done that, to a certain extent.
I don't particularly like the "they don't owe you anything" school of thought. That particular argument can be made both ways. At it's extreme, Valve doesn't owe consumers anything; consumers don't owe Valve anything (not even the benefit of the doubt). It relegates fans to consumers. There is value in having more than a consumer relationship with a company, and there is value in having a community with open communication, especially when people calm down. IMHO. ^_^;
If a person's opinion is not backed up with facts or reasoned arguments, and if that person merely talks about whiners, that person is a mindless fanboy. That's not being overly harsh - it's stating a fact.
So if a company like valve (which I might add has a track record of being good to its customers) releases a sequel to a game, everyone bitches about it. but every year when a new madden comes out almost identical to the previous version, nobody protests? or how about call of duty? or pokemon?
It has everything to do with it. The people who are whining are of the opinion that Valve owes them all kinds of extra stuff because they bought L4D. The fact of the matter is they paid for L4D, and as long as they got the disc or the digital download, they got what they paid for. They don't seem to understand this.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Well, while I agree that people need to STFU about this and at least wait until the game is released to see how Valve handles it, the people who are pissed have real things to be pissed about.
Valve DID promise lots of game updates to L4D, if you do a google search you can find Valve itself being quoted as saying they were going to provide many updates to L4D. If they've gone right to a new game, all new features will be making into the game obviously, and possibly not into updates for people who bought the first one. Also, as two seperate purchases the online community for L4D will be cut in half, a big deal for a game that is ALL about co-op play with real people (the computer plays like an idiot).
You don't understand that if Valve says they'll be new maps, modes, weapons, zombies, etc., devliers none of it, then announces a sequal with all of that, people who paid for the game did NOT get what they paid for. YOU don't seem to understand that.
Being snarky and claiming that an argument is garbage doesn't necessarily do anything to back up your point... In fact, it just makes you sound like you don't have a counter-point.
The "it's a business" argument is everything. They exist to make money. That's it! How is that a bad argument? It's true and it can't be debated. If you want to voice your opinion, do so with your wallet.
Onto the point... I agree, it's too soon for a sequel and there are still unfulfilled promises regarding the first L4D. I don't think it's in Valve's best interest to release the game just yet, but it's not really our choice, now is it? This disgruntled gamer crap is just pointless, even if it is best for a business to listen to it's customers.
If "it's a business" trumped everything, then every bad thing a business ever did would be alright: Enron - no problem; Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme - no problem - it's all just business. The thing is, you're right that calling an argument garbage is not an argument, but neither is saying "it's a business" an argument. Businesses have a responsibility to their customers that goes beyond the drive for profit. You and Adam Sessler need to remember that.
The comparison to Enron and Madoff don't really work because both of those instances were issues of corruption where the business was exploited and used for profit only for specific individuals, not for the company as a whole. You can't call embezzlement just something that a business does normally. In both cases, they were actions that were harmful to the investors and customers.
I still stand by the "it's a business argument" because Valve's decisiont o make a sequel has not done anything to the consumer. Hell, this game's very existence won't force you to eliminate the original L4D from your life and it's not going to make money disappear from your wallet. They haven't done anything wrong and they haven't abused their loyal customers in any way. They still have time to make good on their promises for the original before the sequel comes out, and even if they don't, no one has forced anyoneto buy L4D2.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Sessler is a giant game-hyping douche who never met a game he didn't like. Now he's once more showing he's on the side of corporations rather than consumers - big surprise there.
Whiners and complainers need to exist because if no one complained, nothing would get better.
I'm not on the side of the Left 4 Dead 2 protest, but I value their existance because complainers are a necessary evil in the world to improve things.
Whiners, no. Complainers, yes. Surely you recognise the difference?
The difference is this: 'whining' is what a sycophantic fanboys call legitimate complaint.
Still waiting on that patch for Bully...
----
Papa Midnight
http://www.thesupersoldiers.com
Why are people crying for L4D 2? I´m not a fan of the series. Sessler is gonna to become the most hated game reviewer on history. But many times he was right. The Killzone 2 nonsense from Sony Defense Force was just too funny. Sessler send just them a big STFU...
The cynical side of videogames (spanish only): http://thelostlevel.blogspot.com/ My DeviantArt Page (aka DeviantCensorship): http://www.darkknightstrikes.deviantart.com/
I've not understood why observers like Sessler need to complain about consumers gathering together their complaints. Valve is serving a customer base, not the other way around. The customers need to ensure that their money is well spent on a quality product that will deliver on its promises. Reasoning and reassurance from Valve is the way to quench these flames of dissent, not pissing on the crowd.
Sessler doesn't work for Valve, so he can say whatever he wants.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Which is ironic considering he's trying to say Valves CUSTOMERS shouldn't be saying whatever they want.
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
A fair point, although I dare say he'd argue that he's not saying that they shouldn't be able to say whatever they want, but that what they ARE saying is ridiculous and...well, he covers it pretty well himself.
Because this vocal minority of whiners doesn't speak for the majority of us who are excited and happy that a new Left 4 Dead is coming out so soon. To let the whiners know that this is not appropriate behaviour.
"I've not understood why observers like Sessler need to complain about consumers gathering together their complaints."
Why not? He has a strong feeling about this, and he has an outlet to express it. Personally, I think it would be odd if he didn't. Maybe it will get through these whiners skulls someday.
"Valve is serving a customer base, not the other way around."
This is false. Valve is not 'serving' anyone except themselves. In the past they've done some nice things for gamers because they know it makes the gamers like them, therefore they will be able to sell more games. You are off your rocker if you think this means that Valve is somehow serving the customers. They aren't a charity, or a community outreach program.
"The customers need to ensure that their money is well spent on a quality product that will deliver on its promises."
This is the most hilarious part of your post. You know how customers can ensure this? By spending their money on stuff they want to spend it on. I don't even really know how to properly address this point. How does customers spending their money on quality products have anything to do with Valve? If L4D2 isn't quality, then don't buy it. It's fairly simple.
I'll only address your final sentence if you can demonstrate to me how Valve is "pissing on the crowd". Man, you whiners are fucking madmen in your reasoning.
QFT
I don't know... if a company says 'Buy X1 now and it will come with free upgrade Y in N months' and they never produce Y and instead in N months make an X2 that is a paid upgrade... I can understand people being frustrated.
The aestetic complains I think are silly, and the 'community' ones are questionable (understandable, but I do not think they have a right to them), but being promised something, exchanging money based off that promise, then consumers DO have a right to be displeased. While it was only an oral contract (and probably not even that since I am guessing the promise did not appear in any offical marketing material), it can still be considered a class of fraud.
The fact Valve has such a good track record with such things only makes it worse for them since, unlike, say, EA, people actually take such promises seriously and thus they figure in to the buying decision. It will also make some people more skeptical of such things in the future. And lastly... Vavle has shown that they can and do make good on such promises in the past, so they have the development capability in place to do so.. thus they decided not to this time.
"never produce Y"
Unless we're at the end of existence right now you should know better than to use absolutes. Mostly because Valve has explicitly said that they will continue to support the first L4D.
I'm no lawyer but I don't think this is anywhere near to being fraud. Hell, I had no idea that they ever promised more campaigns/weapons. Is there actually a quote from Valve where they explicitly state that they will be adding more campaigns/weapons/etc.? Or did they just use a vague term such as 'patch' or 'update'?
At worst I'd say this is a bad business decision for Valve since they've obviously stirred up a lot of bad blood here. Nothing illegal about it from what I've seen.
Valve just said patches and updates. No promises on new campaigns. That's retarded community at work there...
So far I have seen patches and updates. They fullfilled their promises. IMO there is too many poor people. Lets complain/work on the economy so that buying L4D2 would hurt your wallets.
Before L4D released, Gabe Newell and Doug Lombardi stated in interviews that the game would be supported with new content similar to what they were doing with TF2. New weapons and campaigns were specifically mentioned. If you are going to call people retarded, at least make sure your position is based in fact.
What do you expect from the "Everybody wins in AYSO-soccer generation"?
Kids have stopped learning about dealing with disappointment and loss, and you are surprised they think everything needs to be catered to them specifically?
"You know what I wish? I wish all the scum of the Earth had one throat and I had my hands about it."
Boy you hit the nail right on the head with that one.
That's a joke right? We're whiny kids for speaking up and not shelling out for something we don't feel is worth it?
You're right. People should "deal with dissapointment and loss" instead of working to change things.
Of course!
Everyone knows that unless you are a good little consumer doing what authority figures tell you to do, you are a whiney communist.
After all, profit is American, companies make more then you, so they are better people, and thus you should be happy to have whatever they are willing to sell you.
Besides, everyone knows consumer rights are communist propaganda. Only bad people protest or try to influence the decision making progress of thier betters.
LOL! your sarcasm is amusing. But seriously, you believe your consumer rights are being trampled on because Valve is making a sequel to a videogame?
Consumer rights does not mean that everything should be free. What next? Is piracy considered the right of a consumer? Where do you draw the line?
A lot of the people on here believe piracy is a consumer right.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
I don't believe it's a consumer right. But I do it anyway. How could it be a CONSUMER right anyway? Pirates, by their very definition, are NOT consumers.
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
Any time gp puts up a topic about people fighting piracy, the boards are filled to the brim with people acting like it's a crime to stop a crime. That's all I was pointing out.
In all fairness, I do it, too. That doesn't mean I believe I have a right, or that efforts to stop me are wrong. I may think things are a little harsh, but there isn't much I can do about that.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
No, I do not think Valve specificly is trampling on consumer rights (though I do view this as boardering on breech of contract).
I was more responding to the various posters who seemed to be saying consumers have no right to complain when they feel cheated since companies are 'for profit'. I disapprove of the sentimate that consumers should be passive actors in capitalism.
I do not try to claim that things should be free, but this goes both ways. Valve took money with promises of content then did not deliver. Essentially Valve got money for free (a portion of the price, I am not claiming the whole game qualifies).
Breach of Contract? What contract? From my knowledge I bought Left4Dead (or rather a liscense for it) in order to play online with my friends against hordes of zombies. Contract fulfilled. No other contractual obligations exist beyond that point.
I'm for the releasing L4D2, because they can fix many of the issues people overlook about the first one. The animation system is very rudimentary, lighting has issues, weapon balance is off, and a couple of other things. The game is very good so many (myself included) overlook all these facts. Valve probably didn't expect the game to be as popular as it is so they didn't put as much polish on it. I would have probably done the same thing in there shoes.
The game however became huge, so L4D2 will be a more polished and complete title to use as a foundation of expansion.
All this ultimately doesn't concern me though. I played the game for a few days and just fell out of interest in it.
This is why I say 'boardering on' rather then 'is' since they never included the promise in offical marketing material (to the best of my knowledge). If they had then they could potentially be in actual trouble.
Many people figured the promise of DLC into the perceived value of the product they bought, thus promising something that was not delivered decreases the value of the purchace AFTER having collected the money. Thus for people who figured DLC into their purchacing decision, Valve failed to live up to it's obligation to provide content that they feel they paid for.
Personally I find that fault on the consumer for buying a product on the perceived value of DLC that wasn't promised. Even if Valve had come out and said "We are releasing DLC A for L4D and you can count on it!" I still wouldn't count that into the value of the product.
No company will ever fully promise DLC, especially in contract form, for a title they release.
I'm curious as to how many people SIGNED A CONTRACT when they purchased Left 4 Dead stating that Valve was going to release DLC for it, and not make a sequel at any point? If I had to sign a legally binding contract to purchase a game, I wouldn't buy the game, no matter what game it was.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
This is a free country. You are free to voice your opinion, and you are free not buy the product because you don't agree with it for whatever reason.
Doesn't change the sense of entitlement the current generation has with...well everything. Particularly with design decisions like in L4D2 and Diablo 3. If you want to design how a game will look, and play...become a game designer. Don't piss and moan on the internet about how it has to be changed or your life will be forever altered for the bad...and act like its the greatest injustice since the Jim Crow Laws...
"You know what I wish? I wish all the scum of the Earth had one throat and I had my hands about it."
Heh. There is nothing new or modern about people complaining that they do not like the dirrection that a narrative takes. Once people have an emotional investment in a narrative they tend to want to steer it. I recall going over, for instance, how Shakespear's history plays were altered due to people being unhappy with the dirrection they took as they continued.
The only real differnce is that the voices are easier to hear due to the high visability they can get on the internet. But go back a couple hundred years and you would hear the same basic arguments going on locally.
The problem is there is a right and wrong way to go about it.
Shoving out online petitions and calling for boycotts an hour after it's first reavealed is flying on the wrong side.
Right. Because you should wait to address time sensitive issues. Waiting a month just makes it even less likely for any issues to be addressed.
What do you propose is the right way to do it?
If you do nothing or wait to do something then you may be too late to possibly change anything... frankly, complaining, protesting, boycotting is really the only thing a consumer can do... and such things are capable of changing decisions as we have seen, in more unfortunate cases, of games like six days (which serves as reason NOT to complain too soon)
If they wait or do nothing, then by the time they think they SHOULD do something, it may be too late to convince valve to make any changes. It costs money for a company to make drastic changes, and the later those changes are made the more money that is lost... so the closer the game gets to release, the more money that's lost in making a drastic change... if you are gonna convince a company to do something, then your best bet is to try and convince them early on when the costs are more limited.
Waiting can be a gamble... on the one hand, if your fears are truly unfounded, then waiting saved you a whole a lot of time as you... on the other hand, if you wait and find that your fears were correct, you have waited too long to actually do anything about it.
They're releasing a game that massively expands on what Left4Dead did, with five new levels (each larger than any of the original's), more weapons, new special infected, and environmental effects and influences like weather and endless panic events. That's not worth £30-£40 of your money? Play L4D1 then. The storm is basically entitlement, with people insisting that they are owed L4D2 for free because they were promised expansions for the original game but the expansions* weren't good enough.
*Unlocking levels to play VS on, plus Survival mode and its new mini-level
I'm against L4D2 coming out so soon because the first L4D hasn't even started selling at a proper price point. The game was only worth 30 bucks when it came out and with the exception of a few steam sales has it come down to an appropriate price range.
The complaints of the L4D2 boycott group looked hastily thrown together in order to get the group into action and noticed. But I sympathize with the cause.
People who buy L4D2 are telling Valve that (once you refine a concept) it is okay to quickly slap a game together and charge more for it than it's worth after having a specific history of doing exactly the opposite. We are voting with our wallets and voicing our distaste.
The whole price argument is silly, too. I've gotten at least 170 hours out of L4D. That's worth far more than the maybe 15 I've gotten out of COD4.
Yes, as far as bandwagon games go, I would agree L4D is more replayable than COD4, which was more replayable than Halo/Gears of War.
How is L4D only worth 30 bucks? Are you retarded? Did you just not enjoy it? I know plenty of people who put in 200 or more hours in L4D, and quite a few (myself included) who played near a thousand hours (I'm sure I've played 500 Versus Campaigns all the way through). How many hours do you get from most video games you buy? Nowhere near as much, I'll guarantee.
How much is an hour of entertainment worth? Is it worth about 6$ (movie in a theatre)? Is it worth $50 (Billy Joel Concert)? Is it worth $10 (Flogging Molly Concert)? Is it worth $20 (the cost of an hours worth of music on iTunes or on a CD [consider, most CD's don't contain an hour, so you really need 1.5 or more to get an hours worth, thus the 20$])? Is it worth 7 dollars (6 hours at any Paramount Amusement Park, now owned by Cedar Point)? No matter what you think it's worth, L4D was more than worth the price payed.
People who protest L4D2 are basically obnoxious children. Oh, waaaah, we didn't get what we thought we deserved from L4D, we wanted more expansions. We deserve half off the new game. We deserve more DLC. Newsflash; you don't deserve jack shit. And I'm glad you won't be buying the game; I won't have to put up with you on XBL.
I am well aware that this is in no way the response you were looking for, but I tend to use the movie theater as the zero point for my entertainment dollar. A good 2-hour movie at about $10 comes to $5 an hour for solid entertainment. L4D, at $30 would need to provide a good six hours of entertainment to "break even" on my scale. As you say, plenty of people get hundreds of good hours out of their game, so from an entertainment value perspective, they're making out like bandits.
See, this is important to the discussion though. What DO we define as the value of entertainment? How can people who've played for 200 hours say that they're getting screwed, or that it's half a game, when they pay 60 dollars for much shorter and less replayable games (COD4) and don't complain? People in America spend good money on entertainment, and I find that L4D was one of the better gaming purchases I made in '08, and I'm waiting for L4D2 so I can get some more of the same. At $60, I know I got more than my money's worth, no matter what scale we're using.
If it was a rational argument then yes, that would be important to the discussion. An adult who is making purchases based on their understanding of entertainment value will approach something like this in a manner as follows: "Huh, L4D2 is coming out less then a year after the first L4D. The original was a worthwhile purchase that gave me hours of entertainment at a reasonable cost and so I look forward to purchasing the sequal with the expectation that I will have a similarly positive consumer experience." The fact that almost NO ONE is doing that suggests that we're not dealing with mature consumers.
Personally, I have a price point for game purchases. Generally, unless it's a (rare) immediate must-have - Fallout 3 is an example for me - I won't make a game purchase until the price is around $30. That may seem stingy to some, but the corrollary is that if a price point falls into the $5-15 range I am very likely to make an arbitrary purchase I would never have otherwise considered. For example, I found Mercenaries 2 for PC for $8. That's what I would spend on drinks with dinner. Assuming the game installed and allowed me to blow random shit up for two hours before becoming utterly broken it would STILL have been a worthwhile purchase.
The problem is that we're dealing with people who might A) not yet understand the value of money, B) not yet understand the value of work and/or C) not yet understand the value of entertainment.
Most teenagers who's parents buy them all of their video games and consoles would fall under all three of those categories. I'm willing to bet that most of the people whining about L4D2 would be teenagers who's parents buy them all of their video games and consoles.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Ah Austin_Lewis. Always up to attacking and slandering anybody who disagrees with you. Glad to see you're still the civilized man you've always been. I'm sure you and Jacky would get along fine as long as you weren't talking about games.
To the point, here are simply better online FPS than L4D with much greater variety for the same (or lower) price. I judge entertainment value by the price of other games that provide similar entertainment.
I'd love to hear some names.
It's true, he shouldn't slander retards like he did. See what I did there! Zing!
See, the problem with your initial post, what made it dumb, is that you assumed that your judgement of value is somehow infallible. That's simply not the case.
Also, if you look at a cost per entertainment hour of L4D over the game's entire playerbase, even assuming that only 2/3 of that time was "positive" playtime (ie the player was having a genuinely good time), I'm fairly certain that you'll find that it represents good value for money. There will, of course, be outliers.
And the funny part is that it's from someone who more times than not leaves me to conclude that his I.Q. cupboard is bare save for cobwebs. If he wasn't such a near complete idiot, his arrogance would be a lot more palatable.
Oohh, a comparison to JT, how very clever of you. Although I do like how he's become the new Hitler in gaming circles. It would appear that Godwin's law needs modification.
The only game I can think of that's even comparable in dollars to entertainment value would be Team Fortress 2. That's the only one that seems to fit your description.
Call of Duty 4 is probably pretty close in terms of value if you played it a lot.
The problem here is that this is all opinion; my opinion, your opinion, Austin Lewis' opinion. Your second paragraph attempts to state that there are (as in, it's a fact) games that are better value than L4D. We can go around and around in this argument forever because value is such a subjective thing.
I'll throw out my opinion, I played L4D for about 60-80 hours, so I think I got a good value for it. Of course, I played Rome: Total War for 100+ hours and I only paid 10 bucks for it, but I'd say it was still worth it for me to buy L4D. I don't play it anymore though and I'm really looking forward to L4D2.
The thing is that most Hitler comparisons are hardly accruate. On the other hand, Mr. T has a well known history of defaming virtually anybody who disagrees with him. I didn't throw that name out there just to be topical.
By your math, an hour of entertainment is worth about $60 because that’s how long I played L4D for before it took its rightful place as a drink coaster. To me, that game sucks more than hard vacuum and this puts me in a very unique position on this debate (as it seems I am the only person who actually DIDN’T like L4D). It really a simple matter; if you feel that you’re getting ripped of, then don’t buy the second game. That it, case closed. Vote with your dollar and let Valve know why your voting that way.
On a side note, Sessler’s opinions are generally worthless. He is the biggest corporate shill since David Manning (look it up, it’s a good story); and on the shockingly few times when he does have a good point, it is like digging through a turd searching for the nugget of corn to find it. In short, being accused by Sessler of being a whiner is like being accused by Michael Jackson of being a bad parent; laughable on its face and hypocritical in the extreme.
No, by my math an hour of entertainment is worth $5. I was pretty sure that I was clear on the logic of everything. That means that for me L4D was a good investment because my entertainment per hour value is less then $5. For you it was a bad investment because you didn't like the game. C'est la vie.
Er... Don't take this the wrong way but I wasn't talking to you; your stuff actually made a lot of sense. I was actually responding to Austin_Lewis' post above yours. The nesting did get rather confusing there.
Actually, that was a long list of ways one COULD quantify the value of an hour of entertainment, by what one was willing to repeatedly pay for so many hours of entertainment (P/T=V, wherein T is time of use (or viewership, as is case for movies and cds and concerts), P is the price, and V is the value of an hour of entertainment). If you didn't enjoy it, you're one of very few who didn't, and I'm sorry. But at least you aren't here whining that you deserve free stuff, or that the game wasn't complete.
EDIT
To continue the idea, observe. For three hours of music from Billy Joel, I paid 150 dollars (times two, actually, so my wife could come, plus 3 beers and the meal we ate in Columbus, Ohio, so all in all it came to nearly 400 dollars). For 3 hours of Flogging Molly, Six point Eight, and the Street Dogs, I paid 30$ (again, twice over). For a CD, I pay 12-15 for 40 minutes at most of music. For a trip to the local Amusement park, I pay 42 twice (wife and I), plus discount rate for my child (ok, I don't actually pay anything, I bought 3 gold passes, but that fucks up the equation a bit). When I go to the amusement park though, I stay for 7 hours at least, thus I'm paying roughly 6 dollars an hour. Do you see what I'm saying? How DOES one quantify the value of an hours worth of entertainment, that's a core problem with this discussion. By any count, the people who got 200+ hours out of it have no right to complain that the game isn't 'complete'.
Why wouldn't they have the right to complain? It doesn't matter how much people enjoyed what was delivered, what matters is what was delivered versus what was paid for. Back in October, corporate officers of Valve said that what the customer would be buying was as much a service as a product, similar to TF2. If someone purchased the game based on those statements, then they didn't get what they paid for. That someone played the game alot does not necessarily mean they would have paid more or accepted less; I sure as hell wouldn't go and pay $50 for mine sweeper, regardless of how much I have played it.
Quite simply, the complaining about the fact that there is a sequel is silly. However, complaining that the sequel is likely to detract from DLC for the original game is perfectly fine. Gabe Newell and other Valve spokesmen said that there would be new campaigns, characters, weapons and infected coming as free DLC for the first game, like they did with TF2. None of that happened.
Exactly. Nobody has said that they are abandoning L4D1. People are just assuming that they are, just because another game was announced.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
I can't speak for anyone else boycotting the game, but this is the basis for my personal boycott. Gabe made very specific promises about the extra content they'd release for Left 4 Dead (not Left 4 Dead 2) and the manner in which they'd be delivered.
So far, only one of the pieces of content he promised has been delivered - extra achievements. Therefore I'm not buying L4D2 until the rest of the content is delivered.
I agree, it's stupid to boucott a sequel because it came out too fast, but it's perfectly reasonable to boycott a sequel because promised content for the original game hasn't come out yet. Once Gabe delivers on his promises, I'll be more than happy to buy L4D2.
Although I agree with the people saying that if consumers don't complain things don't get better, I have to side with Sessler on this one.
I'm getting a little sick and tired of consumers complaining about EVERYTHING. Voting with your dollars is far more effective than whining about it on internet message boards. If everyone who CLAIMED they weren't going to buy a product actually DIDN'T buy said product, it would send a much louder message.
Here here.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
"Voting with your dollars is far more effective than whining about it on internet message boards."
Voting with your dollars shows more conviction but provides less information to the publisher. If people refused to buy L4D2 because of the reasons given in the complaint, but they kept quiet about why they were refusing to buy it, Valve would be left guessing about the cause. They might end up misattributing the lost sales to the state of the economy, for example.
The best option is to follow through on both fronts: Don't buy the game, and make sure to tell the publisher why you aren't buying the game.
Why does Sessler even have a soapbox? The guy has terrible taste in games (he literally gave a game that's a horrible Devil May Cry clone a 4/5). But I digress...
The real issue here is they haven't announced things they should have by this point. L4D1's community is massive and all of a sudden, long before the original is out of date, they're making a sequel, effectively splitting their market. This is very unlike Valve to say the least, this is more like EA territory. Now if there were an inkling that L4D1 and 2 would be able to merge, even including the classic L4D maps in L4D2 and such, then it would be okay. Well, still not great due to the rapid upgrade, but yeah. This is like if Starcraft 2 came out one year after Starcraft 1, new units and all but with equal graphics. Yeah there is cool new stuff in 2, but some of the great stuff from 1 will have been phased out in favor of new stuff and its the same thing here with maps if nothing else.
What I really don't get about Sessler's rant is he apparently thinks its dumb that the target audience would get upset about their community getting divided due to the requirement to get a whole new game to continue the experience in full. Oh yeah, and saying we should give them the benefit of the doubt and then calling other people naive? I think he's officially behind the curve here.
::CLAP:: Awesome response a lot better than mine and sums it up very well.
1000% agreed. I like your idea to, of merging the L4D1 maps and stuff...
-If an apple a day keeps the doctor away....what happens when a doctor eats an apple?-
Wow just Wow; I'm amazed at some of the responses to this post and to the douchebag being quoted up top in this post.
Its very simple as a consumer I have expectation and if my expectations are not met reasonably I am in my right to bitch and protest and boycott the company who is not meeting my expectations especially if I have already forked over money to said company.
Here's a question to above douchebag (the guy being quoted in the post); what world do you live in where you believe everyone should just fork over their money for something and when they get screwed should just suck it up and go oh well at least in 6 months I can give them some more moeny and get screwed again. Frankly if you truly believe that is how a consumer should act then may I introduce you to Comcast for all your internet needs they would love you.
Amusing coincidence: Adam Sessler is employed *by* Comcast.
/b
OMG no shit 0.o that is awesome. Just so you know I really didnt know that; I had never heard of this guy before today.
Nobody said that they had to buy the sequel. If you don't want the sequel, don't buy it. It's as simple as that. Complaining about the sequel, or anyone chastising people who complain, won't do anything.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
I am actually thinking of another current contrast to this debate.
The US auto industry. One of the key things that is hurting it is customer belief that the automakers will not be able to follow through on promises of replacement parts and such. Essentially people are unwilling to spend money on a product that they do not believe assurances that it will be supported through it's lifespan.
Naturally a game and a car are on two very differnt scales, but the pattern is similiar.
Good comparisson; I actually purchase Hondas because I know they last a long time and Honda comes through on taking care of me down the road.
Agreed, 2 out of the 3 vehicles my family owns are Hondas, one that is older than me and still kicking.
-If an apple a day keeps the doctor away....what happens when a doctor eats an apple?-
Your point about the US auto industry is based on a lie told by foreign car companies, that American cars can't do what they can. As far as reliability is concerned, no foreign car company can compete here in America with American reliability, mostly due to the fact that replacement parts are hard to find and expensive. Also, a lot of American car parts are interchangeable (within particular auto companies), whereas foreign cars don't have that luxury. If anyone is actually worried about not being able to find parts for their car, it's only because they have never heard of a salvage yard.
And if anyone is worried about Valve not supporting a game they made, they don't know Valve from crap. Even if Valve decides not to support L4D, it would be the first game they ever released that they didn't support. I mean, they still support the original Counter Strike. Therefore, I would have to assume that either a) the whiners don't know about Valve's reputation, or b) they don't care about Valve's reputation, and feel like whining for whining's sake. I do understand where they're coming from, but if any game company deserves the benefit of the doubt, it's Valve.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
What the hell ever happened to: The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Seriously, they spoke up and Valve heard, and they might be wary of producing another sequel so soon (Really my only gripe about l4d2 and it's not enough to boycott IMHO). Weather or not all 30000 (last i heard) people ACTUALLY speak with their dollar and follow through with their threat is still to be seen though. Personally, I could care less, Valve produces good games i've gotten countless hours of fun out of l4d and am eagerly anticipating thee sequel.
Meh I have been out of the LD4 loop..... so they are relaseing the other half this soon? I guess thats a good thing......
I am a criminal because I purchase media,I am a criminal because I use media, I am a criminal because I chose to own media..We shall remain criminals until Corporate stay's outside our bedrooms..
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com
If it's taken them three years and counting to produce one third of an expansion pack (HL2: Episode 3) then what makes people think this game is going to come out this side of 2012?
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
Its makign more money.......
I am a criminal because I purchase media,I am a criminal because I use media, I am a criminal because I chose to own media..We shall remain criminals until Corporate stay's outside our bedrooms..
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com
Correction: Not as long as three years, but still a ridiculously long time for a third of an expansion pack.
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
L4D2 was given the release date of Nov 17, 2009.
That suggests they've been stockpiling stuff that was originally intended to be for L4D1.
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
Exactly.
Bingo.
And THATS what the anger is about. Sessler is way missing the point on this one.
Valve promised new content, weapons, infected, campaigns etc for L4D1. Then, 12 months after the release of L4D1 they are releasing L4D2 with...new content, weapons, infected, campaigns.. Yet nothing for L4D1...(yess there is the 'yet' argument.. but why continue to support L4D1 after L4D2 release if L4D2 is allegedly such a great improvement...)
The fact is games take 18 months + typically to develop. Therefore they started working on L4D2 before L4D1 was even released. People feel as though they should (12 months on from purchase) see at least SOME of the new weapons / campaigns / maps etc that where promised for L4D1 , before valve go on to making their next game. It just feels a bit like people have been promised something they were never really going to get (knowing that L4D2 was in development when the promises were made...).
The fact is that L4D2 uses the existing source engine. Heck most of the underlying game looks like it was taken from the existing L4D codebase (branching projects like this is not uncommon in the game development industry), and a few tweaks/mods thrown on top. People dont FEEL like this is a true sequel, and feel like the level of improvement from L4D1 -> 2 seems to be more akin to that found in an expansion rather than a sequel.
You know what would fix all this? Them announcing L4D2 will feature all the content from L4D1 and people who own the first game can upgrade for almost nothing.
yeah agreed.
I actually posted on the forums saying itd be great if they did some fiurst week preorder bonus, where if you already own L4D 1 you get L4D2 50% off.
I mean financially its 100000 % do-able, they make so much profit off digital sales its crazy
Or more simply put... making L4D2 an expansion pack for L4D1... cause really, lots of new weapons, enemies, and campaigns for a game that's only been out for like a year is pretty much the exact reason why people make expansion packs instead of releasing whole new games.
You do know that Valve still supports the original Counter Strike, right? So your argument about "Why would they still support it?" is totaly unsupported.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
You're still dividing the fan base. They've confirmed that the map editor will be for both games, but nothing on the weapons, new locations, etc.
What's your point? There are more than enough fans to get away with it.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Because you work for Valve, and know exactly how they run their company, right?
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
"suggests" =/= "know exactly"
-If an apple a day keeps the doctor away....what happens when a doctor eats an apple?-
Again, who are you to make that claim? You don't know anything as to how they run their company, so stop making baseless accusations about stuff you know nothing about, just because someone hurt your feelings.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
It isn't baseless. We're reading the company's behavior. Right now they're telling us that they want to pull an EA because they haven't released any details contrary to this, just 'trust us.' Yes the game still has support, but we're talking about making a game that was going just fine as one into two for no clear reason. This is unprecented for Valve and it has a lot of the fans worried.
Well, maybe you should stop getting your panties in a bunch. You don't have a clue as to what will be happenning, outside of the release of L4D2. Therefore, you don't have enough information to make any claims whatsoever. That's why it is baseless.
You're comparing Valve to EA, a complete falacy. EA earned their reputation by doing what Valve is accused of doing for over 20 years. Valve MAY (it hasn't even happened) do something akin to what EA has done for over 20 years and you all turn on them. You're holding them guilty for something they haven't even done.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
"Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings."
No, it most certainly does not. Do they even teach civics in schools anymore?
The definition of Freedom of Speech has expanded over the years, but it isn't a free ride to say anything you want without consequences.
Just a heads up, that's his signature.
Also, it doesn't say that you can say anything you want without consequences.
Alright then. Based on your obviously Ivy-League understanding of the United States Constitution, what is Freedom of Speech?
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
The "entitement" issue is a fucking strawman. This isn't about consumers whining about what they "deserve." This is about Valve doing something for pure profit without caring about the impact on the L4D community. Releasing a sequel to a multiplayer game so quickly will basically pillage the original game of players. Many will move on to L4D2, leaving L4D barren. The ones that stay with L4D (and why not, it's barely a year old) will have a hard time finding quality people to play with at any given time of the day. Valve promised to support L4D for several years, but they're already planning on denying the game its most valuable resource: players. It's one thing if another company and game stole players away from L4D, its quite another with Valve does it themselves with a direct sequel (setting and gameplay match).
Oh yeah, and how dare consumers join together and voice thier opinion. All we need now is for Adam to don a Security Forces uniform and a baton, and beat them for daring to stand up for themselves. (yeah, I think I just compared all this to the situation in Iran...)
Its one thing to voice your displeasure, and let Valve know you aren't going to stand for it. That is the right of any consumer.
It is an entirely other thing to seek out others and try to convince them to join your boycott, and form what amounts to an advocacy group so that you can try force the Developer to comply to your wishes just so you can have your way. Not every business is run like Burger King...
Seriously, if this is the sort of thing young people feel the need to spend needless time and energy on instead of more important matters where such advocacy could be justified...then I fear for our future.
"You know what I wish? I wish all the scum of the Earth had one throat and I had my hands about it."
The horror! The horror! Those people... trying to find other quality people to play a game with in a barren L4D landscape and always failing because everyone's playing L4D2! It's... it's too terrible to contemplate! I weep for those poor lost souls...
Yeah, but seriously, go outside.
I'm still on the fence on buying it. Leaning toward no, but we'll see how it does when it's reviewed.
Ah Sessler your idiocy never ceases to amaze me. You're whinning about whiners..... That's the kettle calling the pot black.
Althou I believe that Valve is partialy "screwing" the fanbase by pulling this stunt and could backfire and affect sales. But I also believe that some of the arguments and requests from those who are mad at Valve are ridiculous.... I guess I am in the middle here.
The comment "Valve doesn't owe you anything" is also ridiculous if you put it into perspective. They don't owe consumers any money that's a fact but at least they owe those fans a certain degree of respect. When something becomes successful you just can't get up on the high horse forget about those brought you that good fortune. That's how good products have gone down the tubes and this is not the exception to the rule.
I am starting to thing that those comments from Sessler are comments from a pissed off fanboy who is mad at the angry mob who wants to boycott the game rather than a game journalist. (If it's possible to even say he is one)
I'm still towards the middle of this debate - I can't stand the protestors who have organised some surreal 'manifesto', citing their complaints as if they're a political group of some sort. Too many come off as nerd-rage-fuelled whiney kids.
However, on the other hand, Valve did promise further DLC for L4D, so I'm not surprised the fans are outraged when that does not appear to be surfacing and instead there's news of L4D2. Valve should have done something (Even if it was not a huge amount to detract from L4D2 development) for L4D1 to keep fans happy, rather than apparently ignoring the previous game and appearing to move on.
Perhaps more to the point, who cares about L4D2. WHERE THE F**K IS EPISODE 3?
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I LIKE the fence. I get 2 groups to laugh at then.
I hear they hired 3D Realms to help make it.
Then you KNOW it'll be awesome!
And we'll see it in 2020.
Vaporware for the win?
As long as VALVe fulfills their promise of continuing to add downloadable content to L4D1 there is no reason for the consumer base to complain about L4D2. Even the "split community" argument won't hold up at that point. Just like any other game with a fanbase and sequels we'll see plenty of players playing both games, debating about what's better/worse in each and creating their own content using the various mod tools that will be available.
VALVe has a history of NOT screwing their customers. They say they'll continue with L4D1 content, so we should give them the benefit of the doubt and see what happens there. They say that L4D2 contains significant enough changes and improvements that it deserves to be a sequel and not free content or an expansion; until the game is released and reviewed no one can really make an informed judgement otherwise. If you're concerned about continued support for L4D1, fine - that's a valid concern and you should be heard. If you're looking at L4D2's promised content and think you deserve it as a free expansion for L4D1 then you have an undeserved sense of entitlement and need to realize that sometimes you just don't get everything you want without either working or paying for it.
Wow, this is fun. My favorite part is the bit where people are dumb. It's classic internet.
To the people complaining that Valve must have started working on L4D2 before L4D was completed - you're almost right but still oh so wrong. L4D2 features stuff that they wanted in L4D but chose not to implement for whatever reason. When the developers were given, as is customary at Valve, the option to choose their next project they said, "hey, we want to make L4D2 and use all those cool ideas we didn't put in L4D! And let's get started right away!" The image of the whip-cracking uber-capitalist towering over developers and pissing on cowering consumers isn't exactly correct in this case. It's more like a scenario where creators decided to, you know, make something and *gasp!* sell it.
To paraphrase: IT IS NOT A CONSPIRACY TO SCREW YOU.
The people bitching about the art direction in the game are just morons.
Edit: On second thought seeing as most of the comments are just ripping everyone apart I'll just keep my mouth shut.
I'll say what I said, and what I've always said, after I first saw his pretenious, stuck-up show: **** Adam Sessler. And **** everyone who complains about "whiners."
L4D consumers are getting screwed by Valve. You just come off as a douchebag when you say companies have some kind of right to screw their customers.
So Sessler, to answer your question, we were born in AMERICA, where the whiners and complainers always made things better. If you don't like the complaining, don't listen to it. But while you suck Valve's dick like the little tool you are, "whiners" will be spending their money elsewhere. Then we'll see how much attention Valve pays them.
...
I'm still unhappy with this post. These kind of comments just make me so mad I can't write coherently.
People who whined and complained never did anything. It's people who DID things that made this country better. Did Henry Ford whine about how long it would take to build a car? No. He developed a way to build a car faster. Did Harry Truman whine about how hard it would be to end WW2? No. He ended it the quickest way possible, with the least loss of life.
I find it hilarious that the company that has supported gamers the most is being trashed by gamers who think that, because they were always treated so well by them, deserve to be served by them hand and foot.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Bbbbzzzzzzz, wrong Sessler. We are entitled to a quality product, that is why we give them the honor of our hard earned money. But these companies are not entitled to our money. These uppity companies and their talking heads need to realize just who supports who.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Bzzzzz, wrong Erik. You're not 'entitled' to anything, save a functioning product. And by functioning, I mean that it spins in the disc tray, can be read, and can be played. If you were 'entitled' a 'quality product', then the Wii would have almost NO lineup to speak of. Your thought process is astonishingly self-centered. 'Honor'ed with your money indeed.
And Left 4 Dead was, absolutely, a quality product. Few bugs, few glitches, fun game, and fantastic multiplayer experience
"You're not 'entitled' to anything, save a functioning product. And by functioning, I mean that it spins in the disc tray, can be read, and can be played."
Ask Phillips how well that worked out for them. The CD-i had discs and they did spin. Sorry skippy, try again. It comes down to the fact of the matter that these companies remain in buisiness on our whims. Sessler, and frankly you, trying to turn around the customer/producer dynamic frankly makes me sick.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Well to be fair the Phillips CDi sucked.
But yeah, retail exists to cater to the public's demand. It's why you don't find Code Red Mountain Dew at any of the stores I go to, nor Doritos 3Ds. Buying those was not reasonable for the public even if they were delicious. The problem is people are identifying this as a money-milking practice akin to the EA Madden franchise after the company promised they would be focusing on supporting the original game. This is not reasonable for people who are staging active protest. It's way too soon to criticize them as they could easily become sizeable. If its just 5 guys then they shouldn't even be mentioned. Hell, the mere fact that its a decent-sized 'whiner' group is a good reason to stop and consider this, proving they have a point of some sort, even if you don't agree with it.
You know who we should really ask? All the people who've made mediocre games that keep selling.
By the by, the CD-i sold 570,000 units at an initial price of a cool grand, so I don't think they lost out on that.
Like I said, you're not 'entitled' to anything. If you buy a game and don't like it, that's your problem. If you don't get what you expected, that's your problem. What YOU are saying is childish and idiotic.
No, expecting that people should mindlessly slavish their money on these companies like drones is idiotic. People have every right to expect a quality product. The reason that fools like Sessler aren't sucking cock on some street corner is due to our money.
But no, really, if you wish to be some corporate sock puppet then by all means do so. But don't expect the rest of us to shit our money away.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
I didn't realize it was 'shitting your money away' to buy quality games like Left 4 dead was and Left 4 Dead 2 will most likely be. If you don't want to buy it, please don't. We need less retards and whiny children on the servers, you babies tend to quit after getting your ass handed to you once or twice.
Oh yes, I'm a corporate sock puppet. Ooooooh. Because you make all your own clothing, farm all your own vegetables, etc. What an immature person you are.
Here's a hint; if you don't want to play a game, don't play it. But don't act like you're 'entitled' to things you aren't. They've already released DLC for the game once, and they may well do it again, and they did it out of the goodness of their hearts. I guarantee that most of the people complaining would have bought the game either way, at the same price they did, with or without DLC. You're not 'entitled' to free DLC. You're not 'entitled' to great games. You spend your money on what you want, and sometimes you'll get screwed. And then, when you get a quality game, you'll act like a whiny brat.
And despite what corporate puppets like you and Sessler think, Valve is not entitled to my money. People have a right not to buy shit. And if I don't buy one of these games it's no loss for me. On the other hand if no one buys these games then it WILL be a loss for these assholes. Loss of money, loss of jobs, etc.
I just really don't think that you have any idea on just whom is dependant on whom in the customer/company relationship.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Nobody said they were entitled to your money. You gave it to them freely, and in return got a very good game. Now, you seem to think that, because of your one-time payment, Valve has to do whatever you want for the rest of time, and that they are not allowed to do anything that may (or may not) affect the way you play your game. Well, they are not entitled to your money (unless you have a copy of their game), and you are not entitled to anything more than the game you bought.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Actually no. I gave them my money and in return got an adequate game stuck in an eternal beta phase. And now Valve expects me to give them more money. And Sessler and the rest of you expect that I should just give them MORE money. No, not going to happen.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Valve expects you to give them more money? You mean, you got a letter or e-mail from Valve executives saying that if you didn't give them money they were going to do something bad to you? That should be in the news...
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
A few things.
A) There are three types of people who didn't like L4D. 1) people who don't like FPS. That's fine. 2) People who don't play online. If you don't, you're an idiot. 3) People who suck at the game, the same crybabies who leave after getting trounced in a round or two. Which one of these sounds like you?
B) Please, don't buy the game. One less crybaby to leave when he's getting his ass kicked.
C) Nothing about L4D was less than great. The characters were awesome, the banter was interesting (at least the first few times), the levels were imaginative and innovative, with the perfect blend of CQC and outdoors action, the difficulty was spot on, the zombies were great, the weapons were awesome, and the graphics were fantastic. It's not an 'adequate game stuck in an eternal beta phase' by any stretch of the imagination. If you don't like it, by all means, fuck off to the worlds of COD and GoW, two games that are, in fact, adequate. Leave the great game for the big boys.
We'll be all too happy for you to not play L4D2. If you feel like it sucked, please don't. However, you aren't 'entitled' to a damn thing, and corporations don't exist to kiss your ass. Grow up, maybe leave the house once in a while.
The stupid, it burns.
I'm going to try to respond to you civilly at this point, we'll see how it goes.
So, your first sentence attempts to say that Valve are idiots for making a sequel. Alright, fair enough. I guess we'll see if that's true when Valve releases it. But man, your appeal to passion and emotions is pretty obvious when you use terms like 'mindlessly slavish' and 'drones'. I'll wager that they are not idiots at all and they will probably make massive amounts of money from this sequel. If the 'drones' go out and 'mindlessly slavish' their money on what is, according to you, a non-quality product by Valve, who is the idiot here?
"People have every right to expect a quality product."
May I point you at a little thing called Caveat Emptor? There have been some modifications to this rule yes, but generally the onus of making sure that you are not buying a pile of burning shit is on the customer.
And seriously, what is up with your comments regarding Austin expecting you to shit your money away? I don't remember him saying that you should absolutely go out and buy this game. Vote with your money and don't buy it if you don't think it's quality.
If you Austin and Sessler are happy with mindlessly dishing out your money for substandard products then have at it. I won't try to stop you. But I on the other hand will recall that these people exist on our good graces, and not the other way around.
Really, you all make it sound like we should just shut up and part ways with our money. I'm sorry to inform you and valve that I will not be buying L4D2.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Is there a reason why you have the reading comprehension of a gnat? Seriously man, use your brain just a tiny bit and attempt to comprehend what other people are saying.
Actually, you know what? Never mind. Please, just keep doing what you're doing. It really is much more entertaining this way.
Just because I comprehend what someone has to say doesn't mean I have to agree with them. They think that people should shut up and hand Valve their paycheck. And if that is what floats their boats, then good for them.
But there are people who disagree and expect a quality product before we part ways with our money.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
You can expect all you want, but you're not 'entitled' to anything, and that was my point. Goddamn, you are dense. You aren't entitled to anything, and such a belief is childish.
As for quality, Left 4 Dead WAS quality. And I have no doubt that Left 4 Dead 2 will also be quality.
Answer this: I can survive without the half game Left4Dead or it's ridiculous sequel. Can Valve live without money? These companies and their puppets need to sit down and shut the fuck up.
And Austin, just because I'm entitled to something doesn't mean I'm going to get it. But if I don't get what I want then the company doesn't get money. Is any of this sinking through your skull yet?
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Fun story, Valve doesn't need to 'live without money', because for the 30,000 whiny children who say they won't buy it for whatever reason (and this is assuming they actually go through with it), MILLIONS more will. Why? Because the first Left 4 Dead was an awesome (and complete) game. So, it doesn't matter if bratty children who feel 'entitled' to free DLC don't buy it, others will. And we'll play it with 30,000 less whiny children on the servers, which will enrich the experience for all.
Once again, you're not 'entitled' to anything, and that's the kind of thinking that we need to get rid of in this country. You're not entitled to food, you're not entitled to money, you're not entitled to healthcare, you're not entitled to technology. You have to earn it. So, when you make that 60 dollars flipping burgers and spend it on a bad product, you're fucked. Caveat Emptor. Instead, you complain that you (and a very small minority) feel you were fucked, and say you won't buy it again. Whatever, please don't. But don't pretend you're entitled to something that you didn't pay for. That's immature and absolutely retarded.
Related note, were you raised by welfare parents? They seem to have a lot of that 'entitlement' bullshit in that part of society.
I really don't give a flying fuck what you say. I am a customer and Valve is the company. I get what I want or they don't get my money. What about this isn't penetrating that thick ass skull of yours? A company makes a product that a person wants to buy, or the person won't buy it. This is a really basic concept.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
But they don't have to make a product that YOU want to buy, you self-centered, egomaniacal little jackass, and that is the point here. Also, if you buy a product and YOU don't like it, it's not THEIR fucking problem, and they don't 'owe' you a damn thing. What about the fact that YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO ANYTHING can't you ram through that fat balloon you call a head? Goddamn, if you had 2 brain cells to rub together, this should be easy to understand.
At no time did i say you shouldn't buy L4D2. I said you were a retard for wanting the company to cater to you and acting like they owed YOU something.
"But they don't have to make a product that YOU want to buy, you self-centered, egomaniacal little jackass, and that is the point here. "
Then they don't get my money. Really this is a simple concept, even you should be catching on soon. I bet even that knuckle dragger Sessler would have caught on by now.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
I've said repeatedly that no one cares if you don't buy the game. Learn some reading comprehension.
Apparently jackasses like you and Sessler DO care if people don't buy the game. Otherwise you wouldn't be responding to a boycott at all now would you?
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
I'm responding to your moronic sense of entitlement. I could care less if you buy it or not, and I've said that repeatedly. If you had any reading comprehension, you'd have figured that out by now. But you don't, which may be part of the reason why you feel entitled. Once again, are you from a welfare family? Is that why you feel people owe you things?
If a company doesn't deliver what a person wants then that person won't give the company money. Valve can choose to shaft their customers' desires if they so wish. But that may lead to a boycott. Hey what do you know, a boycott is planned.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
And what you still don't seem to understand is that out of the millions who bought Left 4 dead, 30,000 signing a 'petition' or a 'manifesto' isn't a sizeable amount. You aren't the customers, and your desires aren't their desires. The vast majority of customers are excited to get another Left 4 Dead, and all the bitching in the world won't make anyone care about your opinion any more. Why? Because you, and the whiny children who think like you, don't even make up a tenth of a percent of the Left 4 Dead sales figures. They are doing what the customer wants; it just doesn't happen to be what you want.
And guess what? I haven't signed any petition. And I can bet that there are many other shafted customers who aren't going to sign it either and yet still won't be wasting their money.
But I am curious, are you just an uppity corporate bitch with this boycott, or does this extend to all boycotts? Is it just valve that no one can say anything negative about or should we be submissive to all companies? Just curious.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
And there are plenty of spoiled, children, just like yourself, who will sign the petition, then eventually buy the game, but pretend they made a stand.
I don't care if you boycott, but your reasons are absurd and childish. Oooooh, they didn't give me the free stuff they said they would yet, I'm mad. I don't feel like the game is complete. I didn't get free stuff. They owe me this and that. Yeah, that's really mature.
If you don't like it, feel free to not buy it. Just realize that no one cares that you don't, not even Valve.
You didn't answer my question. Are you just against boycotts against Valve, or are you for total corporate whore subservience? I'm genuinely curious.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
If you had read any of my earlier posts, you'd realize I don't care if you boycott or not. I just dislike children who feel they're entitled to things they're not. If you pay 60 dollars for a Tv, you're getting the TV. You're not going to get some free cable with it.
So, when you and others like you whine about entitlement, you make the gaming community, as a whole, look like a bunch of spoiled brats that want what you want (and you do seem stupid enough to think everyone, or even a majority, want what you want).
In summation? You're a child, I don't dislike boycotts, but your reason is retarded.
You seem to have some fucking twisted mental taboo regarding the word entitled. So lets use a different word: want. There are some customers who want something, but they don't feel that the company is supplying their wants. As the purpose of a company is to supply a person's wants if they don't do that then they will lose those customers.
So just ignore "entitlement" and focus on "want", and maybe then you can see the other point of view for a fucking nanosecond.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
But they aren't two comparable terms. Wanting something is fine, you can want until you're blue in the face. ENTITLEMENT, THE WAY THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE ACTING, IS LIKE THEY "DESERVE" SOMETHING. You don't. You got the game. You got the DLC. If you don't like it, don't buy the next game. But don't complain because you feel you deserve more free stuff.
You can WANT more free stuff all you like. But Valve doesn't owe it to you, they don't have to give it to you, and you shouldn't act like you deserve it.
Okay you aren't ignoring entitlement. Just fucking ignore it for one second. I *want* more content for Left4Dead. If I don't get what I want from a company then there is no reason to do buisiness with that company. I am to the point where I would drop $10 for a new campaign. Actually I'm at the point where I might pay $1 to have Mercy Fucking Hospital completely deleted from my hard drive so I would never have to look at it again.
You see I know that I am not "entitled" to get anything from a company. At no point in time has anyone been entitled to anything ever. Because of, you know, free will. A company can choose to thumb it's nose at it's customers. Valve can and is doing this. Valve has every right not to do a damn thing in regards to the original Left4Dead. And that is their choice. But because of their choice I am not going to waste any time or money on a half-assed sequel.
I'm not entitled to anything from Valve, but I want things from Valve. If I don't get what I want, which is the entire reason a person goes to any buisiness, why should I stay with said company?
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Don't stay with Valve if you don't get what you want. What I'm saying is, don't act like they owe it to you, because you've bought one game from them, to give you more free stuff. You say you know you're not entitled, but you've been acting that way the whole time. They don't have to give you more than what you pay for, and you paid for L4D. They gave, out of the kindness of their hearts, an extra 2 campaigns for VS, and a survival mode and level for it.
You are MORE THAN WELCOME to not buy Left 4 Dead 2. Don't, if that's your wish. But don't act, like all those whiners are acting, like they should make a special concession, drop the price of the game, or give you more things for free, just because you bought Left 4 Dead. I own every Final Fantasy, including FFIV; after years, but I'm not demanding Nintendo give me the next chapter for free. I'm willing to pay the 300 points per chapter. I know I'm not entitled.
On the other hand, these people are signing petitions and writing a manifesto DEMANDING that they get their way or they won't buy. But you know what? Don't demand you get your way. Either buy or don't buy, but don't act like a company owes you free stuff.
That was my whole point. I've repeated it CONSTANTLY. If you don't want to buy, don't buy. But don't act like they owe you free stuff.
Do you believe that the original L4D isn't worth the money you paid? If you don't, sell it and shut up. If you do, then your post makes no sense, because that means that L4D isn't a substandard product as you claim.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
It could become a quality game if it ever gets out of the eternal beta stage it seems to be stuck in.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
You seem to be the only person on the entire planet that doesn't enjoy this game. So, I suggest you take my advice and sell it. At least then you'll get some of your money back, and you'll no longer have a reason to whine.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
No, really there are many other people as well. I'm pretty sure that Sessler made mention of them, you know in the entire fucking point of this story.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
No. He wasn't talking about people who didn't like L4D. He was talking about people who don't want Valve to make L4D2. If people don't like L4D, they won't give two shits for L4D2. Why would they? They didn't like the first, so why would they care about the second?
I guess my question is, if you think the first one sucks so bad, why do you even care about valve making a sequel?
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Yes, people don't want L4D2 to be made, because they are still waiting on Valve to deliver a complete game in regards to the original L4D. So now they want to milk us for MORE money on a sequel when they can't even deliver on the original.
Now if you paid someone up front the money to mow your entire yard but they only mow half and THEN come after you for more money to clean your gutters would you give them the money? No of course not.
Valve must really think we are some stupid whores. I uninstalled L4D the day that this bullshit was announced at E3. Very bad form Valve.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Left 4 Dead is, in every way, a complete game. IT HAS:
A complete campaign mode, comprised of 4 chapters and 20 total missions (more than most FPSs these days).
A character roster, complete and with interesting characters, the right size team for the levels, and interesting in-game interaction in the form of quips and jokes.
A beautifully modeled world.
A slew of enemies, including 5 awesome 'boss' style enemies (more than most FPSs games have).
A robust online experince allowing for co-op, versus, and survival modes, all of which are good for DAYS of fun.
A good selection of weapons to satisfy all the basic weapon classes; shotgun, rifle , mgun (the Ar15 might as well be a machine gun for this game), and the back up pistols. Also, Pipe Bombs and Molotov Cocktails.
Oh yeah, this game feels like it's 'stuck in beta mode'. Half-wit.
Here's a better comparison for you, jackass.
If you paid someone to mow your front lawn, and then you bitched when they didn't mow your back lawn for free, do you deserve the free mowing on your back lawn? Of course not. They did the full job, you just want extra for free because, as I've mentioned, you're spoiled. By the way, nowhere did they say they might not make more DLC for L4D, so your point becomes even less and less relevant.
Also, if Valve thinks you're stupid, they're right on the money.
If you are happy with this half game, more power to you. The campaigns get boring about the second play through and the versus modes about one play sooner. I bought the game because the demo was good, as far as demos go. But unfortuantely the game didn't offer anything that the beta didn't.
So sorry, Valve isn't getting my money for L4D2. I'm not going to pay for a second incomplete game. And guess what? Despite what you think I have every right not to buy L4D2. Can you handle that, or does it hurt your sensitive corporate whore sensibilities?
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
But unfortuantely the game didn't offer anything that the beta didn't.
-except for 15 more levels, more versus options, etc., etc.
At no point did I say you should buy L4D2. In fact, I'm glad you won't be, as I've REPEATEDLY stated (reading comprehension will do you some good). I said you're not entitled to anything.
Of course, I love the constant 'corporate whore' line from a person with the mind of a child and a 'appease me' attitude towards a multinational corporation. This isn't like buying a game that doesn't work, you made a poor purchasing decision (or you have ADHD, which seems far more likely), didn't enjoy the game (probably because you suck at it or kept getting kicked for being a whiny little bitch), and now you're complaining because you feel they owe YOU something. You have the mentality of a five year old, and the reading comprehension of a retard.
You see the thing is they do owe me something. You see business works by having something a person wants. Then that person in return gives that buisiness money in return for what they want. If the company doesn't or can't provide that person with what they want then they won't have a customer.
And can you honestly say you aren't fucking sick of the campigns, even a little? After about a month of play I couldn't stand to look at the hallways of Mercy fucking hospital even one more time.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
However, you, like many children, don't really know what you want, or didn't do enough research on the game to see if you'd like it. Then you say they owe YOU something? They don't. They owe the public, and they delivered to the public, and the vast majority like it. You're an outlier, and chances are great that Valve doesn't give a fuck about you, and are more than glad (as are the rest of us) that you won't be buying L4D2. The rest of us will buy it, so they don't give a fuck that one ego-centric child didn't enjoy it, and they don't need to spend time kissing YOUR ass and giving YOU what YOU think you deserve.
And that, little boy, is called reality.
If valve doesn't give the people what they want, then Vavle doesn't get money. This is a simple concept.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
But, and let me type this in caps so maybe it'll finally sink in, YOU AREN'T 'THE PEOPLE', YOU'RE AN INDIVIDUAL, AN OUTLIER, AND A WHINY LITTLE BITCH. THE GAME SATISFIED MOST OTHERS, YOU'RE ONE OF THE FEW WHINING CHILDREN, SO NO ONE GIVES HALF A FLYING FUCK THAT YOU DON'T LIKE THE GAME. Valve doesn't need your money, there are plenty of others who will buy their next quality Left 4 Dead title.
If valve doesn't give the people what they want, then the people won't give valve money. You and Sessler need to accept that and move the fuck on.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Left 4 Dead 2 IS what the people want. Just because it's not what YOU want, doesn't mean its not what everyone else wants. And your local gamestop can confirm it for you. Just ask how many people have pre-ordered it. And stop being a self-centered little cunt while you're at it.
Oh really? Just me then? Because I could have sworn that there are other dissatisfied customers, many of them. But we should just all shut the fuck up and shell out all of our money to our corporate overlords right?
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Once again, the 30,000 that signed that petition don't even make up a tenth of a percent of the people who bought left 4 dead. You aren't a representative group; as I've said repeatedly, you're the outlier. The greedy, self-centered, 'gimme free stuff' outliers.
And yet again you think that people should give away their money to a company for a product they don't want. Accept the fact that some people aren't going to buy your beloved Left4Beta2 and move the fuck on.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Hey, read these:
Please, don't buy the game. One less crybaby to leave when he's getting his ass kicked.
We'll be all too happy for you to not play L4D2. If you feel like it sucked, please don't. However, you aren't 'entitled' to a damn thing, and corporations don't exist to kiss your ass. Grow up, maybe leave the house once in a while.
Instead, you complain that you (and a very small minority) feel you were fucked, and say you won't buy it again. Whatever, please don't. But don't pretend you're entitled to something that you didn't pay for. That's immature and absolutely retarded.
I've said repeatedly that no one cares if you don't buy the game.
If you don't like it, feel free to not buy it. Just realize that no one cares that you don't, not even Valve.
*END*
So, as you've seen from previous posts, I'm more than happy for you and the people who are whining because they don't feel they got what they're entitled to not purchase the game and pollute the servers. But don't sit there and act like the company owes you something to appease your minority of brats, children, and jackasses.
You really are stupid you know that?
I am under no obligation to buy L4D2 if I am dissapointed with the direction, or lack thereof that the original went.
I am allowed to have a negative opionion of the game.
So, what the fuck is YOUR problem? You act as if somehow someone not liking a game you like is a personal insult against you.
Calm the fuck down, go to your doctor, get him to increase your dosage.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
You are, without a doubt, the dumbest fucker on this site. At no point did I say you're obligated to buy this game. If you weren't born as the result of incest, I'm sure you'd have figured this out by now. At no point did I say you weren't allowed to have a negative opinion of this game, no matter how awesome it is.
What I said was that, and let's do it in caps so maybe, just maybe, you'll finally read it, VALVE DOESN'T OWE YOU A GODDAMN THING, SO DON'T ACT LIKE THEY HAVE TO GIVE YOU FREE STUFF TO KEEP YOUR BUSINESS, BECAUSE GUESS WHAT? THEY DON'T GIVE HALF A FUCK ABOUT YOUR BUSINESS.
Adam Sessler was absolutely right; you're acting like they need to do just what YOU want so you'll buy L4d2. But you know what? They don't care if you don't buy it. I hope that you will NOT buy it. God knows, you need to spend the time learning some goddamn reading comprehension so you don't bring down our countries already mediocre test scores instead of playing video games.
Guess what? I don't owe Valve a damn thing, so I guess we're even. They don't meet the customers wants and they don't get our money. It's a lose/lose situation, for them anyways.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Except for the fact that most of the people who have L4D love the game. Therefore, they have given the people what they want.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
If you look there are a number of people who aren't happy and won't be giving up any more of their money. Valve isn't some fucking charity I'm going to give my money away without a thought to.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
That's right, you don't owe valve a thing, and they don't owe you a thing. That was my whole goddamn point, and it seems to have taken you three damn hours to pick up on. Thank god you won't be on the L4D2 servers.
No, you see your whole problem is your mental seizure you have with the word entitlement. I've known from the get-go that Valve doesn't have to do anything to fulfill it's customers wants. But if they make this choice then why the hell should they get our money?
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
I think there's something that hasn't been touched on... and that's the "cry-wolf" factor.
It's well known that gamers have an image that they tend to complain about everything. (Try being a developer, it's nuts.)
I really don't see the value in complaining about something like this. Or (especially) the Diablo colour thing. It's sad that that's they image that we've got, and it significantly devalues our opinions when there's something real to complain about.
Totally agree with Adam, although...
L4D2 Valve? Way too soon ; give us more free content on the already small L4D.
A fucking boycott group? Way too fucking late... L4D is out, and it has a very profitable name already.
My point of view on the whole thing is that valve is shooting themselves in the foot.
They DID promise to update the original L4D.
________________________________________
GameSpy: You said that the game is split into four campaigns. Are you planning for future downloadable campaigns?
http://uk.pc.gamespy.com/pc/turtle-rock-project/902345p3.html
Now the only new campaigns I have seen are a single map that is smaller than any one section of the original campaigns and 2 campaigns re-released for VS mode.
Now I don’t think the 2nd game should not be released, I don’t even think it should be free. What I do believe is that it should be integrated into the original L4D as paid content at around 25-30$.
This prevents the community from being split into 2 different games and still lets valve make money. Unlike Valve's other sequel’s there is NO engine change from L4D to L4D2.
They are irritating their fan base and splitting the community for this game, and both of those things are a bad idea when you are trying to sell something.
Just my 2 cents
Yeah but they've said they WILL come up with the content described in that interview.
People are confusing "Valve can do what it wants" with "What people expect from Valve".
Look at any of their games, long lasting, constant support, plus interviews when L4D came out saying it would get the TF2 treatment, it didnt, so people are complaining. This is not rocket science, this is marketing, when you say something, or you have a reputation for something, you are building an EXPECTATION, when you violate that expectation, people will be angry, it doesnt matter whether you HAVE to do it, and guess what, with L4D people GAVE Valve the benefit of doubt, and are now complaining that their trust is violated.
Interviews with Chet/Gave have stated that they wish to release new campaigns, new weapons, new zombies for L4D when it came out... it never came, and lo and behold, L4D2 comes out with what people expected for L4D1.
Also hilarious, people saying "If you don't like it, dont buy it", well guess what, they arent, and they are just making their displeasure known, you cant say Valve can do this, because if you look at anything else released by Valve, you would know this isnt the kind of behavior expected from them, and THAT is what is important.
Edit: Nobody even try to point out "Survivor" or "New Versus" as Versus was available in all 4 maps anyways, all Valve did was change a few climb points before releasing the remaining 2 maps, and Survivor would have been created within a week (and people were already doing it with cheat codes) of the release of the SDK.
Who says they won't continue to support L4D? Somebody, please post a link to the page where someone at Valve distinctly says they will stop any support whatsoever for L4D when L4D2 comes out.
Also, because of the fact that Valve has a history of not doing things like this allows me to give them the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. This is like saying that if Mother Theresea forgot to pray once, she is immediately going to hell.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
They're a console development company now. Their customers are cash cows to them, nothing more.
Go Adam!
The Internet, when it comes to games, can be such a nation of whiners...
Well, if I want to quote Marc Ecko on anything, it's that the gamer community has the worst divas.
GameSnooper
I've never played Left 4 Dead nor have I followed it but from what I hear valve promised DLC for L4D1 which they didn't deliver and these people think that L4D2 marks the official abandonment of L4D DLC.
Assuming valve promised them the DLC I sympathize but if they didn't then I see no point to this.
----------------------------------------------------
Debates are like merry go rounds. Two people take their positions then they go through the same points over and over and over again. Then when it's over they have the same positions they started in.
They did get some DLC. It wasn't the DLC that these whiny bitches want. That's why they are complaining.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
no.. it wasnt the DLC PROMISED by gabe
y'know, the new campaigns weapons and special infected that were promised. Y.know, like the new campaigns, weapons and special infected that were just announced as the selling point of L4D2.
you are TOTALLY Missing the point.
Where in that interview did Gabe say a date as to when this all was supposed to come out? I didn't see that.
The fact of the matter is, it is entireley possible that they are working on this "promised" content right now, and have been for some time. If they are, I hope they stop, just because of you traitorous bitches. And should this come to pass, I hope they announce that it's because of you traitorous bitches.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
'traitorous bitches'
.. wow.. its only game...
maybe you should take a chill pill. How am i a 'traitorous bitch' just for saying that i understand where the complainers are coming from. And go on the Left for dead 2 forums. Tonnes of people have linked to numerous articles / statments / interviews where new content (specifically campaigns weapons special infected etc) were promised for left 4 dead 1 , pre release, numerous times.
Ppl are simply annoyed that valve have moved onto an entirely new full price game adding all the features that were expected for L4D1. Angry because a) if l4d1 does get these additions, then L4D2 then wont currently offer anything unique from what has been annouced so far. Hell it even uses the same engine, and looks VERY much like an expansion pack rather than a new game. So people are concerned about the sequel. And b) because its taken so long to get the content out there (even if it came out tomorrow! which it wont, since they have already said they are focusing on L4D2 currently. And i can understand that.
Nobody knows that valve has "moved on." Has anyone said they are not going to support L4D anymore? No. You all just assume they will. You are among the people that hailed Valve as a champion of the regular gamer because of all of the things they did for us. Now, that they made a sequel sooner than you would like, they are the scourge of the industry. That is being traitorous. The point is apt.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
''Nobody knows that valve has "moved on." Has anyone said they are not going to support L4D anymore? No. You all just assume they will.''
really? I Do?
I think if you read what i wrote i said ''Angry because a) if l4d1 does get these additions, then ''. Doesnt look like i was saying that they werent going to support L4D anymore. In fact i never said that atall. I then said ''And b) because its taken so long to get the content out there (even if it came out tomorrow''. Hmm in fact that again doesnt say that valve wont support L4D. So stop making stuff up, putting words in my mouth and taking things to illogical extremes.
''Now, that they made a sequel sooner than you would like, they are the scourge of the industry. That is being traitorous. The point is apt.''
Again.. you really need to stop putting words in my mouth and completely blowing things out of proportion. Have you been drinking a load of coffee or something? You seem easily excitable. I believe what i said was ''Ppl are simply annoyed ... And i can understand that". So in your strange world where things can only exists in utter extremes, showing ANY understanding of the reasoning behind the complaints means im calling valve the 'scourge of the industry'?
Im done debating with you. You arent actually reading what i write, your taking it, putting it through a process where you replace everything i say with a crazy extreme, and then arguing against the extreme views you yourself (not me!) put forward. Have fun sitting in the corner arguing with yourself.
You don't get it. This is an issue of extremes. I'm calling for someone to look in the middle. The people angry at Valve all think that Valve owes them something. They assume that, because of the announcement of L4D2, the game that they bought (and some claim to not even like) is done for. I'm merely asking them for evidence of such, and NOBODY HAS PRODUCED.
Also, the above comments weren't merely directed at you. They were directed at everyone on this board who seem to believe that because they bought something they are supposed to be waited on hand and foot by Valve, the company that has done more for it's consumer base than any other gaming company combined.
One game. They make one game, and a very small minority gets in an uproar. They think that because they yell very loud they'll get what they want. Well, I'm trying to point out that they aren't infants anymore, Valve aren't their parents, and as much as they would try to deny it, they don't have shitty diapers.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Please allow me to explain it. I will use simple words so even the stupidest person here can understand. When you bought Left 4 Dead, you recieved Left 4 Dead. If you did not recieve Left 4 Dead, as in a box that said Left 4 Dead with a disc inside it that said Left 4 Dead, or a digital download called Left 4 Dead, then Valve ripped you off. Otherwise, you got what you paid for -- Left 4 Dead.
If you purchased Left 4 Dead because of a promise of downloadable content, then you do not deserve the money you spent, much less the game you bought. You spent 60 dollars for Left 4 Dead, and nothing more. Anything not included in the Left 4 Dead box or on the Left 4 Dead disc is not what you bought. Believeing you were supposed to get more doesn't mean you were supposed to get more.
If you were unhappy with Left 4 Dead, then sell the game and get some of your money back. Do not buy the sequel. However, don't believe that Valve owes you anything. You purchased Left 4 Dead and got Left 4 Dead. When you purchased Left 4 Dead, it didn't include a notice anywhere that Valve promised to give you x-amount of DLC by y-date. It included Left 4 Dead and only Left 4 Dead. As I have stated, Left 4 Dead was a box that said Left 4 Dead with a disc inside that said Left 4 Dead, or a digital download that said Left 4 Dead. Nothing more.
Valve, to my knowledge, has not said that they will not be releasing any more DLC for Left 4 Dead. They said that they are making Left 4 Dead 2. To my knowledge, this was the extent of their announcement. They didn't say that Left 4 Dead was being shelved. They didn't say that Left 4 Dead would be unsupported from this point on. I firmly believe that it will continue to be supported for years to come, because, as I said, the original Counterstrike is still being supported by Valve.
Finally, I find it funny that people rip on Adam Sessler for saying what he says, but are willing to totally ignore his fact-based points. Specifically, that, based on Valve's track record, their fans should be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I find it hilarious that nobody has touched on that little nugget.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
L4D in, it's past and present state, is presently one of the biggest ripoffs the gaming world has ever seen. Pretty much by your second playthrough of a campaign the fun has all but dissapated. So even if you play one campaign per day it will still be little over two weeks before you are completely sick of the game.
If on the off chance that anyone from Valve is reading this. I have an extra $100 sitting in my bank account. Give me two more campaigns and it's yours. You DO like money don't you?
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Even if your particular experience was the rule versus the exception, I will direct you to Star Wars - The Force Unleashed. This game was only good for maybe two playthroughs. The PS3/360 versions got some DLC, but that only gave it stuff that the Wii version had. It had an average playthrough time of 13 hours (8 hours for the Wii).
I will direct you to any Zelda game ever made. I can beat any Zelda game in three days of my spare time. I've done it with every Zelda game ever made. Trust me, it gets old.
Also, you haven't commented on my point that Valve should get the benefit of the doubt.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
I never give any company the benefit of the doubt. Valve is no exception. Is your point now officially commented on?
Can you honestly say when you bought the game and saw the four piddly campaigns sitting there you didn't for a second think "this is it?"
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
With how fun the game is, no I didn't. I'm still playing this game, and still having fun with it. Just because you think you need DLC to enjoy this game, doesn't mean that it's necessary for everyone.
And again, who said they won't be supporting this game anymore? When did valve release this to the press? Oh, wait, NOBODY SAID THAT! Just a bunch of whiny bitch children who are used to getting everything they've ever whined about THINKING that if they whine loud enough, they'll get their way. Well, Valve isn't your crappy parents. They will put out Left 4 Dead 2 whether you like it or not, and if you don't buy it, it won't matter to them because there aren't enough of you to make a difference. They, being Valve, will most likely continue to support Left 4 Dead, not because you whined, but because that's what they do. When Counter Strike 2 came out, did they stop supporting Counter Strike? No, they didn't. So your whining is not based on anything but your own stupidity.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
What are you basing on that they will continue to support L4D, your "benefit of the doubt"? Sorry, not buying it. And for that matter to continue to support something don't you have to start to support it? And as far as your parents comment goes, I don't recall offering my parents money to get what I want. If you did then you had a twisted fucking childhood.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
I guess Whiney Bitch can't read. I'm basing my "Benefit of the Doubt" on the fact that Valve has supported - and continues to support - every game they have ever made (I've brought up the original Counter Strike about a million times). There is absolutely no reason to believe that they won't continue. They didn't stop supporting Counter Strike on the release of Counter Strike 2, so why do people think that they will stop supporting Left 4 Dead with the release of Left 4 Dead 2? You haven't answered that. As far as "starting to support" it, they released some DLC. I'm sorry if you didn't think it was good enough.
The parents thing, what I said what that these children whine to their parents until their parents give them what they want. I didn't say anything about giving parents money.
Stupid bitch.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
" I'm basing my "Benefit of the Doubt" on the fact that Valve has supported - and continues to support - every game they have ever made (I've brought up the original Counter Strike about a million times)."
Sorry, not good enough.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
So, you are mad at valve because they are doing something apparently against their reputation, but you claim their reputation doesn't garner any good graces with you? What do you want? You can't have it both ways. Either their reputation garners benefit of the doubt, or they can violate their rep all they want. You can't hold their rep against them while at the same time not holding them to it.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
No, what I'm saying is that I don't give a flying fuck about their reputation.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Then stop pretending they owe you something.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Due to the strange size constrants on this board I shall continue down here from a thread further up
The obtuse kid said:
"Don't stay with Valve if you don't get what you want. What I'm saying is, don't act like they owe it to you, because you've bought one game from them, to give you more free stuff. You say you know you're not entitled, but you've been acting that way the whole time. They don't have to give you more than what you pay for, and you paid for L4D. They gave, out of the kindness of their hearts, an extra 2 campaigns for VS, and a survival mode and level for it.
You are MORE THAN WELCOME to not buy Left 4 Dead 2. Don't, if that's your wish. But don't act, like all those whiners are acting, like they should make a special concession, drop the price of the game, or give you more things for free, just because you bought Left 4 Dead. I own every Final Fantasy, including FFIV; after years, but I'm not demanding Nintendo give me the next chapter for free. I'm willing to pay the 300 points per chapter. I know I'm not entitled.
On the other hand, these people are signing petitions and writing a manifesto DEMANDING that they get their way or they won't buy. But you know what? Don't demand you get your way. Either buy or don't buy, but don't act like a company owes you free stuff.
That was my whole point. I've repeated it CONSTANTLY. If you don't want to buy, don't buy. But don't act like they owe you free stuff."
Who said anything about free stuff? As I said earlier I would like some new content for L4D to allow me to regain a shred of intrest I had for the game the first week I owned it. I would be willing to pay $10-$20 for a new campaign. Also like I said earlier I would be willing to pay $1 to have Mercy Fucking Hospital permanently deleted from my hard drive with no chance for reinstall so that I will never have the chance to even accidently look at those halls which I am sick to HELL of.
I am a customer with money, but if Valve so chooses to thumb thier collective noses at me, then I will take my money elsewhere. But people like you and that knuckle dragger Sessler seem to think that we should just shut up and take it. Well sorry, I am not going to bend over for Vavle like you, Sessler, Wormdundee, the fucking rest of you. I am NOT going to buy L4D2. If you have a problem with that, oh well.
Don't give me a new game. Finish what you started, if I have to pay you more than once to get one complete game, so be it. But I am not going to buy a new game when the original is still so fucking beta.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Valve did finish what they started. They released a finished game. They then released some DLC for the game. Therefore, they did more than finish what they started. They then started a new game.
Also, nobody said they wouldn't continue to make stuff for Left 4 Dead. You're just assuming that's what will happen because your a whiny little bitch. You and your ilk have yet to counter this particular argument.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
You call that a complete game? Really now? So I assume that you weren't pissed when you saw a mere four fucking campaigns. Really now? Maybe in a few years from now I will consider buying L4D2 once there is enough content for the original to be a complete game. Whether or not I have to pay for that content I don't care. Make me not loathe the original and you might get me to buy the sequel.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Well, considering most FPS games only have one campaign, I'd have to say that four is a pretty good number.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Right. And three quarters is more than one dollar because there are more of them right? I would say that I could have played each campaign through in one night if I so decided to, and would have beaten them and been sick to hell of them by sunrise.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
And I could do that with any FPS game, so what's your point?
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
The point is these little mini-episodes masquarading as campaigns don't do it for most people. Add in the pathetic weapon selection and the tedious quips and you have yourself one hell of a demo for a greater game.
This "game" really should have started with ten campaigns with the choice to buy more afterwards. With such a dissapointing first game, why should anyone bother with the sequel?
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Again, if you think this game sucks so bad, sell it, and rent before you buy in the future. Until then, stop acting like the world owes you. Until you do something that contributes to society, the world doesn't owe you shit. Before you say you do, the fact of the matter is the only thing that anyone with an entitlement mentality has contributed is a country trillions in dollars in debt.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Now try to pay attention. I am not asking for a hand out. I am asking for the opportunity to pay money in return for Vavle to complete this game. This is not entitlement, this is me expecting Valve to act like a fucking business and take my fucking money.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
What have they done to suggest that they won't make more DLC? You haven't answered that. I guess you're the one not paying attention.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
The fact that they are putting time and effort into a new game rather than finishing the first one.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
IT WAS FINISHED! YOU ARE JUST TOO MUCH OF A WHINY BITCH TO THINK SO!!!
This is the attitude that the entitlement people have, that nothing is good enough.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Really? You really call that finished? Honestly?
I mean maybe if you've never played any other game at all ever at any point in your life you might be able to make that assumption.
But four mini-episodes. A very small assortment of weapons and then the same weapons but slightly upgraded, and a laughable versus mode. Yeah. I remember saying a few days after I bought the game "This game is going to die on it's feet it if doesn't get some content and soon. No one is going to want to look at Mercy fucking hostpital ten thousand fucking times."
And it looks like I am psychic.
But it seems on this board there is the attitude of "shut up and submit to your overloards" that people have. I am pretty sure that even if Valve shipped out completely blank disks that there would be those of you out there who would not only bend over and take it, but become pissed off at us who didn't bend over and take it. Such as is happening now.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Judging by your infantile banter, I'm willing to bet I've played games longer than you've been alive. Nobody is asking anyone to submit. I'm saying that maybe you should act like you appreciate what was given to you.
Here's what I don't get about DLC. If you want it right away, why not have it added to the game initially? You say you want DLC and you want it right away. You're an idiot. I'm willing to bet that in three days you didn't even finish the game.
Your comment being psychic is laughable. If you were right, there would be a much larger outcry.
You, just like every other anti-establishment, anti-corporate person in this country, seem to think that because you're a minority, you deserve to be treated as an equal. Well, that's not how things work in the real world. Get used to it, so that when you graduate high school and get a job, you won't be so disappointed about the fact that NOBODY CARES ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
"Judging by your infantile banter, I'm willing to bet I've played games longer than you've been alive."
Doubtful. That is unless you owned some pre-atari system.
"Nobody is asking anyone to submit. I'm saying that maybe you should act like you appreciate what was given to you."
Appreciate? What the fuck? That has to be the absolute most fucking ridiculous thing that you have said. How the fuck can I appreciate that baren fucking contentless theft of my money? Appreciate my ass.
"Here's what I don't get about DLC. If you want it right away, why not have it added to the game initially? You say you want DLC and you want it right away. You're an idiot. I'm willing to bet that in three days you didn't even finish the game."
If you made that bet you would be right. I finished with everything the game had to offer in about two days.
"Your comment being psychic is laughable. If you were right, there would be a much larger outcry."
Or maybe by this point in time everyone's expectations have plummeted so far that they can accept this barren game.
"You, just like every other anti-establishment, anti-corporate person in this country, seem to think that because you're a minority, you deserve to be treated as an equal. Well, that's not how things work in the real world. Get used to it, so that when you graduate high school and get a job, you won't be so disappointed about the fact that NOBODY CARES ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK."
Hi, class of '99 here. Pleased to meet you. And you like very corporate whore thinks that we should just settle for everything placed in front of us. Not fucking likely junior.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
I'm not saying settle. I'm saying that unless you make your own fucking games, stop acting like you own every other game company on this planet. If you don't like what valve has to offer, make your own and shut the fuck up.
And yes I've played some pre-Atari shit. Class of 99? Say hi to class of 79, fuckface. Maybe you should look at how you were raised, like Sessler said, because your parents obviously made you think you were the center of the universe. I bet they bought you this game, too, along with the computer you play it on. Even moreso, I bet you live in your mom's basement playing it, or jerking off, or whatever the fuck social leeches like you do in your parent's house because you can't make it in the real world. Get out of your parents house, lose your virginity and do something constructive. Your generation elected the man that is running our country into debt and turning us into an international joke. You people though Bush was bad, but nobody had the guts to say "Death to America" while they were building a nuclear arsenal. Guess what? The person you elected has our enemies doing exactly that.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
"I'm not saying settle."
The fuck you aren't. You can't bear the thought that some people can't stand this barren fucking demo of a game. Really though, talking to someone like you is an utter waste of time. Just keep smiling fucker while you get screwed. Just go about your buisiness like no company could ever put out anything other than perfection and drink your kool-aid twit.
Now piss off waste of time.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
If you can't stand the game, don't play it. Don't buy the sequel. But don't think that because you don't like this game, which puts you in a very, very small minority, that Valve needs to do something for you. Accepting that is not in any way submitting. You're just so much of a spoilt bitch you can't get that through your skull.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
I don't play it, I've not played it in months. There is no reason TO play it. I don't plan on buying the sequel because there is every possibility of repeating their mistake that they made with the original having less content than a Popcap game. But I don't expect you to understand any of this. You are a submissive bitch who will accept anything placed before him without question.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
"Again, if you think this game sucks so bad, sell it, and rent before you buy in the future."
Do you even know how Steam works?
Yes I know how Steam works. I have my own Steam account. I also know that a lot of games on Steam are multi-platform, therefore rentable. So, before you buy a game on steam, rent it.
Idiot.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Wait, so your solution is for people to buy several hundred dollars worth of hardware so that they can rent a game that is not necessarily going to be the same from platform to platform? How is this a more reasonable course of action than asking the company to deliver the product/service their own corporate officers said they were selling you?
Nobody said they were going to sell you what you think you were going to get! Your solution is that companies never make anything new. How is that going to make anything better, genius?
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
How in the Hell does that logic parse? All I thought I was going to get was what they said I would be buying. Are companies no longer bound to accurately describe the products and services they sell?
I played the demo before I bought it. I assumed that the retail version of the game was going to be a more complete experience than the demo. Guess I should have stuck with the demo.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Two things:
1) You expected a shit-ton of free DLC, and you're mad because you set yourself up for dissapointment.
2) You know what they say - "To assume is to make an ass out of you and me." In this case you just made an ass out of yourself.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
No, I expected the full version of the game to give a full experience in comparison to the demo.
I should have just stuck with the demo.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
What was lacking? Aside from the content not being as much as you think it should be, and the lack of DLC that you think you should get, what was missing from the game that makes Valve the new scourge of the gaming industry?
You have yet to offer any answers that are actually accepted by 1 percent of the L4D community, much less enough for any company to care.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Go play any demo of any game and tell me what is lacking and you will have your answer. The game really should have started in the realm of 10 campaigns and then sold addon packs after that. But instead we get offered a sequel? Give me a break. I bet that only half of what they said will be in L4D2 will actually be in the game, and on the day it's released they will announce L4D3. And Valve will be sitting on a pile of our money and flipping us the bird.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
And what actual evidence do you have to support your theory? Because they made a game you don't like, and didn't support it you your satisfaction? You're fucking pathetic. VALVE DOESN'T WORK FOR YOU! YOU DON'T OWN THEM!
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
You are a waste of time. I have no time to deal with someone who can't have, or let someone have a negative opinion of a product.
Now since your panties are officially twisted, I shall help get you back to your happy place: Everyone likes Valve. Valve has never and can never make a mistake. We would gladly give any amount of money for anything that Valve offers us for the money regardless of the product. There is no boycott because no one would ever boycott Valve.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
There's a difference between having a negative opinion of a product, and saying that because you bought said product the developer owes you stuff. There's a difference between that and saying because you bought said product the developer MUST give you free shit. Between that and saying that because you bought said product the developer must submit to your will and your will alone (even though you are part of a SEVERE minority).
I'm not saying Valve can do no wrong. I'm saying that, until they actually do something wrong, cut them some slack. You don't know that more DLC is not coming.
Would you take back all of the shit you said if it did? I doubt it, because people like you never do. I would, however, take back every defense of Valve I've made here if somebody, ANYBODY, could direct me to actual evidence that more DLC isn't coming, such as an announcement by Valve that they are dropping L4D.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Oh more DLC is coming. Another fucking slap in the face at that. Oh dev tools, big fucking deal. So while they are working on another incomplete game they expect the pissant mod community to scrabble together their work for them. Too bad 99.99% of homebrew crap is shit and the rest is mediocre.
But no, I shall NOT cut them slack. I've not cut any company any slack yet so why should they be the exception.
As far as your comments about Barack I really can't stand the man. He keeps shoveling OUR money at these companies. I thought that was the copyright of the republican party to screw us to benefit the financial elite. Though he is a bit more sane as far as foreign policy. Even though he does have to deal with the leftovers Bush forcing North Korea into nuclear armamanet. Basicly Barack is the least warlike Republican president we've ever had.
But really you should go to your happy place where everyone loves Valve and they can never make any mistake. It will make you happier and get you out of our hair.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
Oh, yeah, it was Bush's fault that North Korea has nukes, right?
You think Obama's a Republican? You obviously don't understand shit about politics. Republicans generally don't want government involvement in corporations at all. That's what Democrats and Communists want.
As far as your last statement, if you didn't want people getting in your hair, maybe you should have kept your mouth shut. You chose to speak, and now you are facing the consequences, specifically people pointing out the fallicies of your statements.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Consequences? Hardly. You are but a minor irritation. But really fanboy, scamper off to your happy place where everyone loves Valve and Valve doesn't make mistakes.
Shoo boy.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
What a load of crap. Regardless of whether the people complaining about L4D2 are right or wrong, all he's doing here is calling people a bunch of names with no basis or bearing on the actual issue.
No, he's commenting on the feelings of entitlement a lot of people in the gaming community have, and how they are based on nothing more than selfishness.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Yeah, what it really comes down to is Valve PR here.
Here we are enjoying a game that's been out, what? 6, 8 months? Now we're getting a sequel. Cool. About a year after the game came out. Okay. Is it an expansion pack? Is it a separate game? How much will it be sold for? How much of it will be integrated into the original? These are the questions that currently there's no answer to. When generating rapid sequels you need to be able to answer some of these otherwise you get the massive confusionfest that is this with people complaining about other people for exercising their right to complain in an endless pot and kettle tirade. The best Valve has been able to do is confirm the map editor will be out for both games and that really wasn't the answer to the biggest questions around. If E3 had been later in the year or Valve had decided to wait for something like PAX then we might of been able to avoid this. Of course, its freaking E3 and pretty much back to the way it used to be. The pressure to make big announcements at these expos is seriously hurting companies PR wise. I know Square Enix has been getting some comments on FFXIV and there was that stupid EA Dante's Inferno thing. Welcome to the dark side of media circuses.
What if L4D2 was just an expansion pack? Do you think the people blasting it would apologize? No they wouldn't. They'd claim that Valve changed it to an expansion as a result of their "boycot."
Valve doesn't have to answer these questions until they feel like it.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
I'm not saying they'd appologize, and it's Valve's fault for doing bad PR. I'm not saying I'd do better, but from what I know about PR you should be able to read into possible concerns and address them to minimize backlash. I don't think they did that effectively.
And its true they don't have to answer, but it would help the situation immensely.
I personally disagree with your last point. I think the money spent on a PR campaign would be better spent making games or DLC.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
I have to agree here. Like most people here have already said, all you did was pay for L4D, and then you were given free add-ons later on. Any other company would have charged you $10 for that. The fact that Valve even does any of this for free in the first place is huge. This goes for Team Fortress 2 as well. The fact that so many gamers expect and even demand that Valve continues to do this is ridiculous. Just because they've done it, it doesn't mean gamers are entitled to it. All you are entitled to is a product. If it functions and functions well, you've just lucked out.
Edit: Oh, and anyone boycotting this game I have no problem with. You are allowed to do that, you are allowed to have your opinions. However, when you're sitting at home playing L4D with what is hopefully no more free DLC, I'll be enjoying L4D2.
I don't care if it is free. I've spent real money on buying clothes for the character in Dead Rising. I would have no problem paying $10 or even $20 for some new content. If it speeds up the process I would definetely pay.
Mind you L4D isn't a horrible game, rather it is a very good starting point for a game. Rather than making a sequel they should just have made it an expansion. Really it seems like the sequel is going to be nothing but an expansion dressed up like a new game. I'll pay for an addon, but don't try to trick me into thinking it's a new game.
-Ultimately what will do in mankind is a person's fear of their own freedom-
I thought I had acouple more posts in here...oh well
IMO Erick>thread
We are either sheep who demand more and whine about it or sheep who pay to suck wallet and brain shrinking tit's.
You want to support a indutry we're good enough means more bugs less content in broken and haphazard packages keep on enjoying your mindless milk bukkue fest for the rest of us thars work to do... IE whining. :P
Also entitlement dose not always equal selfishness, we the black sheep of consumerdom want better more polished and less lulzy and broken products while the rest of the herd is happy with shit 9 times out of ten, if it were not for us you would enjoy eating sht like it was good food.
If games were 10-20 a pop there would be a lot less hurt feelings as thats a sign of true mass market mass produced crap but while games are priced 40-70$ a pop we ALL need to demand better from the industry and boycott all retail chains by buying used, if you can not do that and rest set the system then there well be no change as the maggoty is to stupid to care about much of anything anything. Case in point the 360 with a 30-60% fail rate and with such little public outcry MS slowly attempted to fix the problem thats still a issue to this day.
TL : DL we are the ones to keep things from getting worse, we might be small in numbers but there is enough of us that things can't get to bad without a slow raging outcry over it. If no one cared the 360 would have a 90 day warranty on it still.....
I am a criminal because I purchase media,I am a criminal because I use media, I am a criminal because I chose to own media..We shall remain criminals until Corporate stay's outside our bedrooms..
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com
1) If L4D was really as bad as you and Erik make it out to be, it wouldn't have sold so many copies or gotten so many awards.
2) Entitlement does equal selfishness, because of what feelings of entitlement are. People who feel entitled to things think that, no matter how little effort they put out, everyone else is supposed to give them things. As I have stated before, all you did was purchase Left 4 Dead. At no time was there a promise made to give x-DLC by y-date, or a promise to not put out a sequel until a very very small subgroup of the people who bought this game said so. If you purchased this game believing either of those, you're an idiot and deserve to be told such.
3) Left 4 Dead is not an indie game, therefore worthy of being more than 20 bucks. Just because you believe you should get everything for free, doesn't make it so.
4) You are not the ones who will "keep things from getting worse." If you were, you'd be attempting to get a college degree, start your own gaming company and do it the way you think it should be done. We'll see how long you float selling full games for 10 bucks with free DLC every two weeks.
5) Your 360 comparison is not the same. A vast majority of 360's were broken, all over the world, and they still haven't fixed the issue permanently. A very small percentage of people who bought Left 4 Dead are unhappy with the issue we are discussing. The blame for the former can be placed solely on Microsoft. The blame on the latter rests with the people who are angry.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
jedidethfreak
1. You are missing the point this is not about LD4 but how complacent with mediocrity the industry is awashed with.
2.You're missing the point I am not railing on LD4 or even LD4 2 specifically ....And are people to not want more for thier money, not want polished and refined entertainment they should just take it in the ass(or unliked orifice of choice) and like it? Just cause the majority are bunch of rim licking morons?
3.See above, and it was 40$+ at launch, try again.
4.Uhg...miss the point miss the point miss the point, we are the ones(not every black sheep with a comment but rather any sheep that gives a damn about gaming as it was) keeping the industry from going fully casual and throwing away any semblance of what gaming is, remove the enthusiasts and mature game fans that would leave nothing but casual and kid based games(what sells the most) and from that you'll have more random trends that could easily destroy half the industry or more because a new trend in another market has replaced it.
5.No its not not with a majority of games being damaged, and again I am not focusing on LD4 here this is a industry wide issue of rushing out a product to fix it later through DLC if EVER.
I am a criminal because I purchase media,I am a criminal because I use media, I am a criminal because I chose to own media..We shall remain criminals until Corporate stay's outside our bedrooms..
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com
Nowhere in any of your incoherent rambling did you ever say anything about any of the above. You were, in fact, whining about Left 4 Dead 2, and how, you think, Valve will obviously not support Left 4 Dead (even though nobody at Valve has said anything of the sort). You totally ignore the fact that Valve doesn't make kids games or party games. They only make hardcore games, and support them for years after release. If you want to take a stand against the industry, doing so against Valve and one of their most popular games is the wrong way to go.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
[quote]Nowhere in any of your incoherent rambling did you ever say anything about any of the above.[/quote]
Incoherant rambling=zippyspeak, WELCOME TO GAMEPOLITICS!!!
:P
[quote]ou were, in fact, whining about Left 4 Dead 2, and how, you think, Valve will obviously not support Left 4 Dead (even though nobody at Valve has said anything of the sort).[/quote]
Hardily I was focusing on the industry as a whole just because I didn't mention it...well...is oversight on my part. *lick*
[quote]You totally ignore the fact that Valve doesn't make kids games or party games.[/quote]
In general yes, its mostly the case new game gets all the attention game that came out is mostly ignored but for some bug work or DLC.
[quote]They only make hardcore games, and support them for years after release.[/quote]
You do realize hardcore in this day and age is some form of advanced casual ?
I would not call Portal nor L$D hardcore, even TF2 is so so in that respect, I did get to play it and L4D online some at a friends house.
And frankly HL2 out of the box was weak, the eps make up for it a bit but 8 years for 1 game mealpiced out has not really been worth it.
[quote]If you want to take a stand against the industry, doing so against Valve and one of their most popular games is the wrong way to go.[/quote]
Well I been making my stand against them since they invented steam, I refuse to have that sht on my PC and wait until a steamless version comes out so I can put it in my used retail version so I can play the damn thing.
I am a criminal because I purchase media,I am a criminal because I use media, I am a criminal because I chose to own media..We shall remain criminals until Corporate stay's outside our bedrooms..
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com
Then what is your complaint? You're not even contributing to any game company's pocketbook by buying only used games, so they dont care about you.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
Sessler nailed it. Somehow my generation of kids has turned into a bunch of spoiled, self centered egoists who believe everything in the world exists for their benefit.
News flash. If Valve wouldn't make a profit on something, they would never make anything. You wouldn't have steam or any of the other quality software (games or otherwise) they've put out. Game developers aren't in the business they're in for the consumers, they're in it for themselves. The funny thing is that these people whining about L4D2 don't give a damn about how well valve does, as long as they get their free stuff.
Hypocrisy at it's finest, welcome to our generation of game consumers.
"You want to support a indutry we're good enough means more bugs less content in broken and haphazard packages keep on enjoying your mindless milk bukkue fest for the rest of us thars work to do... IE whining. :P"\
You see, that's one of the problems right there. You assume that just because you thought the game was horrendous that it automatically is. The millions of other people who bought the game would be keen to disagree with that notion. I think that's one of the biggest problems with some of you on here. Obviously, if the game is a multi-award winner, and a multi-million copy-selling game, it is not the atrocity you want to believe it is. Is that the only argument that some of you can bring? Really? I foind it hilarious, Zippy, how you think in some kind of warped sense of self-worth that you actually bring about change for the consumer with your venting? Since when? Didn't work for the folks who hated Blizzard's art design in Diablo 3. The red rings? Hardware failure is a bit different that a personal game experience.
Obviously, some of you hated L4D. Fine. I'm sorry you did, since I played many games I hated too. However, your hatred does not equal any fact. The fact is that the game sold well and was well recieved by critics and consumers alike, so it seems to be pretty far from the "shit" you claim it to be.
Plus, I don't understand the concept of buying the game for DLC. If you pay sixty dollars for a game, I assume you pay for the the retail game, the game that comes in the box or through the download service. You pay sixty dollars for L4D, for that experience that comes in the box. You pay for the content that comes with the game. When do you think it's a good idea to buy a game for some hopeful DLC? I didn't buy most of he games I have now for DLC that MIGHT come later on. I pay for what comes in the box. If you pay expecting some DLC, than that's your own damn fault.
However, all of this can be solved by just not buying the game. Unhappy or unsatisfied with the first game? Let Valve know by not buying the sequel. Simple. And it makes you look less like a doofus.
And Zippy, how do you intend to boycott retail chains by buying used? Where do you expect, other than friends or a garage sale, to buy used games? Maybe a retail chain like Gamestop....
--------------------------------------------------------------
"We received 20 calls last night. As we all know, one call equals a billion people. So 20 billion people called us last night. We must act to preserve decency on television." -The FCC
Ebay/net,pawn shops, and yes the ebil gamestop and EB, the point is to buy used and send a message, its that simple don't buy new media its not worth the cost of a bad indutry....
I am a criminal because I purchase media,I am a criminal because I use media, I am a criminal because I chose to own media..We shall remain criminals until Corporate stay's outside our bedrooms..
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com
So the developer makes games that are good enough that you want to buy and play them, but not good enough to support the developer to make more good games? And people wonder why their favorite companies are downsizing or closing.
Exactly. They don't contribute to the company at all, but then DEMAND to be serviced by them after the fact.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
I'm quite happy there will be a sequel. I've pre-ordered it for my 360.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
This is your signature, right?
So, do these people then not have the freedom to express their opinion? Just like Valve has the freedom to go ahead and release the game anyway? Pick a side: L4D2 is fine or L4D is a broken promise, and fight that... or GTFO. Arguing about how whether or not these people have the right to complain is pointless, and in your case, hypocritical.
Yes, that's my sig.
I don't care about anyone saying what their "opinion" is. Where the problem comes in (thus the nature of my sig) is when people say stuff purported as fact when it is nothing more than propaganda. For example, the whole GW "If you're not with us, you're against us" thing was totally out of line. On the other hand, I don't like being told that I'm racist because I didn't vote for Barack Obama. I didn't vote for him because I disagreed with his policies, and felt they were the wrong direction to take this country (and thus far I'm being proven right). The fact that he is black had no bearing on my vote.
Had he been more moderate, I might have considered it.
Freedom of speech means the freedom to say ANYTHING, so long as it is the truth. This does not exclude anything that might hurt someone's feelings.
For the sake of maintaining thread stability (what little we have) please don't bring real politics into this.